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Vikernes' release

Re: Vikernes' release
May 22, 2008, 10:43:54 AM
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They re-interpreted the past in a modern form, which is a method of promoting modernity.



It seems very unlikely that you have read these works if that is your interpretation of them.  

If you have read them, I would be very interested to see your rationalisation of the claim "Brecht looked favourably on modern society", or "Joyce was promoting modernity in Ulysses". Or any of the other Modernists mentioned previously, which you may personally have read.

Re: Vikernes' release
May 22, 2008, 10:48:39 AM
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I would be very interested to see your rationalisation of the claim "Joyce was promoting modernity in Ulysses".


Accusing me of not having read the books really motivates me to take you seriously. Honestly.

I'll match you in kind: how can you be so fucking oblivious?

Joyce takes a heroic story and makes it a tribute to the common man, who masturbates at schoolgirls, fails in life, acknowledges his wife's coquetry, and finally, decides that friendship, peace and love are all we can live for. It endorses multiculturalism. Other than the bit about the adiaphane, it's a total wash.

Nile577 picked a better example, which was essentially someone writing in the modernist style without the modernist ethos (citing Nietzsche and the Bhagavadgita generally makes one the opposite: a total realist). But Nile577 made a categorical error in doing so, denying the overlap inherent to language.

Ah well. So bored now! Good luck.

Re: Vikernes' release
May 22, 2008, 01:08:11 PM
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Accusing me of not having read the books really motivates me to take you seriously. Honestly.

I'll match you in kind: how can you be so fucking oblivious?



Provocative perhaps, but you had said nothing to indicate you had read anything. Only single-sentence opinions. Onward:

The point you make on Joyce does not cover anything deeper than the surface of the text and - like Stewardess' criticism of Kafka's symbolism - doesn't go into any depth to consider the usage of such detail.

Do you actually think that James Joyce was transplanting heroism into cosmopolitan modern society as an attempt to "better" the original text through modernity? That is not how it reads.

He is reversing the alienation process of reading the ancient Classics, in order to contrast the texts and (most specifically), the cultures. Joyce is deliberately raping the classics with modernity. His intention was to provoke the reaction you gave. His text succeeded.

In this way, Ulysses is every bit as demonstrative an example as The Waste Land for showing the repulsion with the contemporary that was these writers' motivation.


Re: Vikernes' release
May 22, 2008, 01:24:01 PM
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Joyce is deliberately raping the classics with modernity.


I think this is largely correct. Joyce was paying 'tribute' to the common man about as much as Hieronymous Bosch paid tribute to the decadence of his day in painting The Ship of Fools:



What a worthless work this is! Where is the heroism?

!

Re: Vikernes' release
May 22, 2008, 07:07:18 PM
Still interested in what authors onan, Satan is my Stewardess, and DMBM find worthwhile/would reccomend.

Re: Vikernes' release
May 22, 2008, 08:22:19 PM
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I think this is largely correct. Joyce was paying 'tribute' to the common man about as much as Hieronymous Bosch paid tribute to the decadence of his day in painting The Ship of Fools:



What a worthless work this is! Where is the heroism?

!


The difference: where's the fatalism?

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 10:48:08 AM
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He is reversing the alienation process of reading the ancient Classics, in order to contrast the texts and (most specifically), the cultures. Joyce is deliberately raping the classics with modernity. His intention was to provoke the reaction you gave. His text succeeded.


I think you ascribe too much to this writer.

Note that if you read the manuscript of Stephen Hero, and follow it up with Dubliners, and finally the finished Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man, you see someone rebelling against the strict modern time by being in search of a more organic, more tolerant, more human viewpoint -- pure humanism. Joyce's point in Ulysses was that the common man is a hero for surviving this time, and his final statement is something like, "all you need is love" in his saying "yes" to the struggle of life. Note that Stephen remains a protoganist in this book, just discussed obliquely, much as Nick Carraway is a sounding board for Gatsby.

The level of pomposity is rising here. I find the fact that you can't debate me without insulting me indicative of some interest other than truth, here.

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 10:50:06 AM
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Still interested in what authors onan, Satan is my Stewardess, and DMBM find worthwhile/would reccomend.


Quick list:

The ancients.
Hemingway
Faulkner
Fitzgerald
Celine
Houllebecq
Proust
Hamsun
Strindberg
Burroughs
DeLillo
Heinlein
Pound
Eliot
Sterne

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 12:14:50 PM
I can't find where I insulted you. I pointed out that your statements up until a certain point made it appear that you hadn't actually read anything being talked about, as you avoided engaging with the writing itself. That was all.

You say I over-estimate Joyce's intentions; everything in the text points to the reading I suggested. You yourself have acknowledged this but extrapolated the end result I think to find something outside the content of the text: "you see someone rebelling against the strict modern time by being in search of a more organic, more tolerant, more human viewpoint -- pure humanism." The rejection is there, definitely. But there is no resolution. The point is not "Joyce promotes humanism through Stephen", he doesn't.

The point is: Stephen (like his namesake) is imprisoned within Modernity, but is able to escape (or at least surpass) through his own presence of Will and rejection of the false (oppressive traditionalism, religion). He always maintains his national and historic identity though and it is more than hinted that these act as the basis for his development beyond modernity.  


Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 12:17:49 PM
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Quick list:

The ancients.
Hemingway
Faulkner
Fitzgerald
Celine
Houllebecq
Proust
Hamsun
Strindberg
Burroughs
DeLillo
Heinlein
Pound
Eliot
Sterne


very good.  thank you.

Nile577

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 12:24:26 PM
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Oh, I see: because they're all of a category, you assume they're all together. There are always those who transcend their times, and even within movements, there is variation.


No. My statement applied to your assertion that re-interpreting the past in a modern form is a method of promoting modernity.

Your reading of Joyce is too easy. If we think Joyce endorses multiculturalism we should re-read "After the Race," or consider Stephen's reflections, in Portrait, that he must reach the Irish youth before its blood is corrupted by Englithness. As pertains to Ulysses, we should reconsider the subtlety of the Cylops episode. Let us not forget that the encounter between Bloom and the Citizen is narrated by an unnamed Dubliner, himself of doubtless political persuasion. Let us not forget that Joyce has considerable sympathy for the Citizen's criticisms. Let us not forget that despite his utopian daydreams of New Bloomusalem, Bloom himself frequently professes a dignified pride in being Irish, and in his actions - for example, his donation at Dignam's funeral - is easily the most socially (nationally?) responsible character in the novel.  Let us not forget that while Bloom considers Israel the “sunken grey cunt of the world” he brandishes his cigar at the Citizen in response to his anti-Semitism. Yes, the novel is humane, but its "humanism" is broader than what you mean by that term.

Bloom is an androgynous everyperson, and in that a prophet, like Christ, or Tiresias. I do not agree that his life is a failure.

Joyce rails against ideological monovision (e.g cyclopean nationalism) by presenting a narrative in which both sides of any given "issue" are visible. As such, he resists sententious summary. Except, that is, by reality(tm) wielding nihilistic cyclops men who, just like Bloom, spill their seed all over the ground.

(& didn’t someone get punished for that?)

*listens to the thunder*

Datta? Dayadhvam? Damyata?
                         
Stephonan: gragh! (Terrified)

Bloom: Just a noise in the sky.

Stephonan: (calmed) Shantih. Shantih. Shantih.

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 01:04:33 PM
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My statement applied to your assertion that re-interpreting the past in a modern form is a method of promoting modernity.


Your statement was deliberately ambiguous, then. Passive aggression?

Re-interpreting the past in modern form is to modernize it, and not criticize the modernity which has absorbed it. Joyce, while endorsing Irish nationalism, spoke clearly of a tolerance for all means of behavior which are lost and stupid, and by affirming Bloom as a hero, and a compatriot to Stephen, endorses a humanist approach: the state is evil, the rigidity of society is evil, let's hold hands and come together.

If you do not see this as being dogmatic, perhaps the problem is your lens.

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 02:25:22 PM
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Re-interpreting the past in modern form is to modernize it, and not criticize the modernity which has absorbed it.


The problem with this reading is that it has amounted to nothing beyond the initially-perceived meaning of yours. Whereas the opposite - that Joyce uses the past as a means of exploiting the failings of modernity - has offered detailed and intricate narratives for both myself and Nile. This alone should hint at the narrative's intention: the pessimistic reading offers the most open and revealing reading of the text overall.


An interesting list of writers there, with something of a bias towards American literature (this is to be expected though I suppose).

Re: Vikernes' release
May 23, 2008, 10:34:24 PM
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The problem with this reading is that it has amounted to nothing beyond the initially-perceived meaning of yours.


...which is a different story from claiming it's correct. Note that you can claim this about anything: "well he spoke for forty minutes, and you only spoke for four." Quantity over quality, a modern hallmark!

Details offered are cheap. Sound analysis can often be a lot "smaller" than a horde of unrelated details.

Joyce, with his characters finding history a nightmare, living stupid lives, finding no wisdom, and showing us this all from the perspective of this character, even phrasing his clasic "YES" through their voices -- even using the modern perspective of wanting to "show all sides of the issue" where great writers instead pick a path to explore and find an answer -- he has absorbed modern humanism, and it's what wrecked his writing after POTAYM and turned it to quasi-elitist, solipistic, self-referential code that decodes to nothing. Did he escape Christianity, or merely secularize it? Hmm.

The bias toward American literature is deliberate. After Europe rotted, the Americans wrote the most truthful works for a long time, and it's only now that the process is reversing, and Europe is providing far too few authors who have any sense. There are some omitted from the list, like Wilde, Austen, Keats, Wordsworth, Shelley, Blake, and I've also omitted some "Americans" like Wolfe, Steinbeck, and Slayer.

Re: Vikernes' release
July 10, 2008, 12:01:03 PM
varg vikernes is realised and im very happy about it...he desearved this release and lets hope on some other burning churches  ;D

HAIL TO VIKERNES!!

1. Vikernes was denied parole

2. I would much rather see him composing music and/or writing books.