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Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism

Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 12:04:00 AM
I've noticed that it is common for countercultures to mock and deny their predecessors. For instance, there is an expansive collection of people in my home town who adhere to the deathgrind, deathcore, and brutal death metal music (and by god you better be sure to know the difference, or forever be a fool) that vehemently speak out against Cannibal Corpse. This seems strange to me, as Cannibal Corpse carries much of the same musical qualities that these scenesters adhere to. Also, while browsing the shelves at the library the other day I came upon a young girl who was composing a research paper. She conformed to the standard regalia of the alt. rock/emo/indie scene down to the last detail, yet upon inquiry of the subject of her paper she informed me that she was writing of how Nirvana ruined music during the 90's and how post-punk and indie rock put a stop to the grunge movement apparently initiated by this group. Nirvana was in fact partially emulated in the majority of hipster groups today, with the most obvious influence being its fatalistic tendencies.

It is standard for these people to find a thin justification to display hatred for art that is similar to their taste in order to create the illusion that they are in fact discerning individuals.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 06:22:55 AM
Especially young fans are very spontaneous fascists, ready to execute their idols as they succumb too much to social norms, stylistical deviations, adulthood and selling out. As a long time observer of black metal I find it easy to sympathize with a situation where a band is unarguably a part of the genre's history and even hailed as a master but is such a spiritual traitor that the mere thought of the abomination makes one puke.

Reconciling objectivity and subjectivity is the only sanity. I don't need to like or listen to Metallica, or Anthrax, or Mayhem, but if I'd write a scientific paper I'd do my utmost to give an unbiased evaluation.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 07:49:18 AM
Especially young fans are very spontaneous fascists, ready to execute their idols as they succumb too much to social norms, stylistical deviations, adulthood and selling out. As a long time observer of black metal I find it easy to sympathize with a situation where a band is unarguably a part of the genre's history and even hailed as a master but is such a spiritual traitor that the mere thought of the abomination makes one puke.

Reconciling objectivity and subjectivity is the only sanity. I don't need to like or listen to Metallica, or Anthrax, or Mayhem, but if I'd write a scientific paper I'd do my utmost to give an unbiased evaluation.

I would agree when an artist being discussed is merely historically important, or may carry some historically important works. However, most hipsters don't seem to carry any sort of interest for what factors lead to the creation of the art that they accessorize themselves with. Perhaps on they are attempting to reconcile the fact that the artist or artists in question were obviously of dubious intent in their time period, and reject them because they cannot use arguments of newness or originality to force their validity on others? It's a little twisted how everything that these people do can be traced to some sort of trivial vie for social status that is based on absolutely no merits.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 05:27:47 PM
This happans all the time on tis forum as well though. You only have to mention the word Venom for such a discussion to arise.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 06:35:31 PM
It is standard for these people to find a thin justification to display hatred for art that is similar to their taste in order to create the illusion that they are in fact discerning individuals.

Yes... but I would not call it self-hate. I thought this thread was about something else when I saw the title (see below). They are trying to distance themselves from bands that have become too popular, if they appear to like said band then they too become uncool in the 'underground' scene: see thread on hipsters. If they are able to discern between two bands on a artistic level then they might have a valid point; however, let's be honest here, how many death/goregrind bands are even slightly artistic? Probably a round number like zero.

What I actually thought the thread was about was a condition where someone created a sense of heightened egoism (love of oneself) through a belief of self-hate. It sounds contradictory and complex but it had me wondering how it might be possible. I don't think the above example fulfills that; "I like deathgrind but hate cannibal corpse", is similar to saying "I love myself even though I'm fat, bald, middle aged and alone." That is discernment. When I read the title I was thinking along the lines of "I hate myself but only I can hate myself properly, no one else has the skill or ability to hate me properly." That sounds like egoism through self-hate. [/digression]

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 06:54:38 PM
Also, self-hatred is fueled by self-centrism and egotism. The original poster might have meant egotism/selfishness instead of philosophical egoism.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 09:44:53 PM
It is standard for these people to find a thin justification to display hatred for art that is similar to their taste in order to create the illusion that they are in fact discerning individuals.

Yes... but I would not call it self-hate. I thought this thread was about something else when I saw the title (see below). They are trying to distance themselves from bands that have become too popular, if they appear to like said band then they too become uncool in the 'underground' scene: see thread on hipsters. If they are able to discern between two bands on a artistic level then they might have a valid point; however, let's be honest here, how many death/goregrind bands are even slightly artistic? Probably a round number like zero.

What I actually thought the thread was about was a condition where someone created a sense of heightened egoism (love of oneself) through a belief of self-hate. It sounds contradictory and complex but it had me wondering how it might be possible. I don't think the above example fulfills that; "I like deathgrind but hate cannibal corpse", is similar to saying "I love myself even though I'm fat, bald, middle aged and alone." That is discernment. When I read the title I was thinking along the lines of "I hate myself but only I can hate myself properly, no one else has the skill or ability to hate me properly." That sounds like egoism through self-hate. [/digression]
That's an interesting concept. The idea I was trying to portray was much more shallow, admittedly.  I do believe that the symptom you described is common in many people today, and can be witnessed in those who attempt to use disabilities (especially those such as obesity, which is self-inflicted) as a source of empowerment. They're right in some instances, such as the case of a blind man becoming adept at sonic capability, but most of the time it seems like a weak excuse to undermine their low sense of self-worth.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 02, 2008, 11:04:41 PM
I've been having more thoughts about what I said (I'm egoistic today?). One example of self-hating egoism may manifest itself unknowingly in the mass consumerist (westerner): they put on their make up and buy the latest Apple products (coprophagia/philia). They love themselves yet they are injuring themself at the same time, eventually those that are smart enough to realise that their whole life and existence has been hollow then turn to hate themselves. However, I'm not sure that they are strictly loving themself while concurrently hating themself. Inflicting unknown pain via mass consumerism may be gross negligence but they don't do it out of hate, which reminds me of the Christian proverb: The path to hell is paved with good intentions. A consumerist's future hell is paved with Apple products. ;-)

Discernment as mentioned above is essentially the ability to compare different objects and then create an organized list. It need not deal with contradictions or absolutes. Person A says: John is tall, Bob is short but Bill is the shortest.  Person B might say: John is short, Bob is shorter, while Bill is the shortest. We can conclude from this that both Person B is taller than Person A. The same works by replacing the people's names with band names etc. When it comes to music then we are most likely dealing with taste so it becomes much more subjective; however, the language is still the same. They are making a comparison.

The different with love and hate is that they are commonly accepted to be absolutes and in fact are commonly accepted to be polar opposites. Then if we ask: how can someone truly love themself and hate themself at the same time? We arrive at a paradox. An obvious ansaetze solution to this problem is to re-evaluate our concepts of love and hate, such that we construct a definition of love that overlaps with hate. My only worry is that even if the two concepts are constructed as non-absolutes, can we actually solve the problem?

I'm not fully convinced, I'm still thinking on it. Even if the concepts are in fact comparative words then we can still arrive at contradiction; Person A says: John loves himself. Person B says: John hates himself. It bothers to accept that both are true concurrently. People's opinion is far from objective, plus it requires concurrent measurement of John's mood by Persons A and B. John may love himself on a Monday but hate himself on a Tuesday (bipolar). Can someone else offer a solution that solves the concurrency problem?

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 03, 2008, 01:50:50 AM
Hate and Love share one attribute among a few : they are an intense focus of emotion on a person/thing/etc.  So first off, they are not polar opposites, as mentioned before.  They both involve an intense sense of fascination.  Now, concerning Persons A, B, and John, isn't it possible that John does not truly hate himself but conciously presents it to himself that he is, in order to gain gratification from a sense of doing something?  If he is say fat, and doesn't want to do anything about it, won't  "hating" himself provide the necessary illusion for him to live sanely while not changing anything?  Perhaps the "hatred" gives him a sense of comfort.  True hatred of oneself would imply attempting to destroy oneself ultimately, so perhaps no one truly hates themselves, but instead tries to make themselves believe that they hate themselves in order to sustain the illusion of possible improvement and defending their comfortable ways.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 03, 2008, 11:22:57 AM
Hate and Love share one attribute among a few : they are an intense focus of emotion on a person/thing/etc.  So first off, they are not polar opposites, as mentioned before.  They both involve an intense sense of fascination.  Now, concerning Persons A, B, and John, isn't it possible that John does not truly hate himself but conciously presents it to himself that he is, in order to gain gratification from a sense of doing something?  If he is say fat, and doesn't want to do anything about it, won't  "hating" himself provide the necessary illusion for him to live sanely while not changing anything?  Perhaps the "hatred" gives him a sense of comfort.  True hatred of oneself would imply attempting to destroy oneself ultimately, so perhaps no one truly hates themselves, but instead tries to make themselves believe that they hate themselves in order to sustain the illusion of possible improvement and defending their comfortable ways.

Love/hate are emotions but they are opposite emotions; however, I noted that was the common understanding and not my own rigid principles. The rest of what you is interesting, it relies upon never using the words as polar absolutes. Love is at one end of a line, while hate is at the other end; however, most emotions are somewhere in between those points on the same line. That's one simple representation.

The slight problem with "John does not truly hate himself" makes me ask: how do we know that/ how can we measure it? Your later comment goes some way to answer that and I'll add that if he did truly hate himself then perhaps he would commit suicide. If he just didn't really like himself but not truly hate himself then he could use that to live in comfort. I concur with your conclusion. The problem seems to be in the definition of the words and whether we hold rigidly to such meanins. Once again proving dualism to be far too simple?

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 03, 2008, 01:44:52 PM
Indeed, dualism often necessitates the construction of many false dichotomies, and as we can see here, a metaphysical sort of dotted line that says "love stops here, hate begins here".  Obviously for the two concepts to be separate they need differences, and they exist, although the line is not so clear as a dualistic perception would have it.  Love and hate are hardly black and white concepts, and really the intense sense of fascination that both involve means that that each can become the other easily.  One's intense sense of love for a person for example, can create an idealistic picture in the mind which is then never fulfilled in real interactions with the person, then the fascination continues but the feelings about the person become negative, one might begin to hate a person based on them not living up to love's idealistic mind-portrait.  That is just to illustrate that the "energy" of the emotion, so to speak, is transferable.  Now, as for measuring John's hatred for himself, I still say that self hatred would ultimately equal the urge for self destruction.

Re: Self-Hatred as a form of Egoism
September 08, 2008, 11:03:54 PM
This theme is the raison d'etre for the "suicidal" black metal crowd (leviathan, xasthur, etc), but is deceptively ubiquitous in much of modern music.  One needs only to turn the dial of your radio to a station of the "modern rock" format and hear anthems of self-hatred from linkin park, godsmack, korn and the like (sorry guys, typing the names makes me cringe too).  The repetition of these themes is so frequent that I'm convinced regular radio listening leads to depression!!! 

So for some reason this is a theme that sells.  Tastemakers have apparently decided that self-loathing egoism is "cool."