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SMN Forum Woes

JJ

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 09, 2008, 10:39:09 AM
Nature sees the man who can adapt as superior and that's all that matters.


Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 09, 2008, 09:58:50 PM
Quote from: More Celt Than Sassenach
What ASBO means is that even so the universe lacks empirical values men can still choose values that are positive to their strength of character. So while the hedonist may become fat, suffer from many STD's and have an extremely questionable character the realist will attempt to find meaning for ones self regardless of whether the universe provides such meaning or not.

what's wrong with being fat and suffering from STDs, what if the realist finds that his meaning is to fuck BITCHES and eat PASTRIES, is the man of virtue some how SUPERIOR to the HEROIN ADDICT? if so, this dude wants to know WHY he is superior, because, dawg, i just ain't seein' it!

In the end all pursuits in life at some overriding level are hedonistic. The hedonist pursues the most immediate source of pleasure, the Christian views a union with God as the greatest pleasure and thus is willing to make worldly sacrifices to achieve it. Even masochists derive pleasure from pain and those that are self loathing find it easy to hate themselves rather then overcome their predicament. Even those who commit suicide as an escape see death as better then life. The idea behind the will to power is to create an unconditional happiness. Regardless of circumstances one does not feel, or one overcomes emotions that are not positive. If you are fat from Mcdonalds and suffer from STD's from hookers your happiness is hardly unconditional. All it takes is the toss of the coin and he will spiral into a deep unhappiness.

The reason why the ubermensch is superior to the heroin addict is because the former is happy and one would have to move mountains to change it where the other is naturally a slave and is forced to derive happiness only while using the drug.

Think of the will to power as a pursuit of an ultimate happiness. In this sense it is strongly related to Buddhism except Buddhism seeks to eliminate all emotions but one the will to power lets one feel a variety of emotions.

13X

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 12:39:07 AM
The reason why the ubermensch is superior to the heroin addict is because the former is happy and one would have to move mountains to change it where the other is naturally a slave and is forced to derive happiness only while using the drug.

"Who lives longer: the man who takes heroin for two years and dies, or the man who lives on roast beef, water, and potatoes till ninety-five? One passes his twenty-four months in eternity. All the years of the beef-eater are lived only in time." - my nigga Adolus Huxley (author of Heaven and Hell, READ THAT SHIT!!) killin' it.

The UBERMENSCH is a nigga who live life according to his own will and not conventional morality. Kind of like a heroin addict who rejects traditional values and opts to make China White his personal god instead of raising a family or some shit. That shit ain't for me (although I do use psychedelics often. Pure naked existence, dinka flicka.) but my nigga Rob from the homeless shelter who love bombitas and chicken wings ain't somehow inferior to a dude who decided that Proust and mountaineering were his bag.

The human race rails against nature's design and probably needs to die off anyway.

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 12:56:40 AM
The reason why the ubermensch is superior to the heroin addict is because the former is happy and one would have to move mountains to change it where the other is naturally a slave and is forced to derive happiness only while using the drug.

"Who lives longer: the man who takes heroin for two years and dies, or the man who lives on roast beef, water, and potatoes till ninety-five? One passes his twenty-four months in eternity. All the years of the beef-eater are lived only in time." - my nigga Adolus Huxley (author of Heaven and Hell, READ THAT SHIT!!) killin' it.

The UBERMENSCH is a nigga who live life according to his own will and not conventional morality. Kind of like a heroin addict who rejects traditional values and opts to make China White his personal god instead of raising a family or some shit. That shit ain't for me (although I do use psychedelics often. Pure naked existence, dinka flicka.) but my nigga Rob from the homeless shelter who love bombitas and chicken wings ain't somehow inferior to a dude who decided that Proust and mountaineering were his bag.

The human race rails against nature's design and probably needs to die off anyway.

Yes, but I could easily exploit the heroine addict's weakness by removing that source of happiness from his life. When the entire purpose of your life is something that needs to be constantly renewed you aren't railing against traditional values; you're fitting in right along with them. The ubermensch would be a man who understands that all of the varying emotions in life, given that he creates their value, is what makes his life purposeful and what it is. Thus, take away his heroine and he does not descend into the darkest pits of despair because that was only a fraction of what made his life what it is. The ubermensch is above the petty justification of addiction that human beings like you and I are enslaved to.

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 04:52:01 AM
Yes, but I could easily exploit the heroine addict's weakness by removing that source of happiness from his life. When the entire purpose of your life is something that needs to be constantly renewed you aren't railing against traditional values; you're fitting in right along with them. The ubermensch would be a man who understands that all of the varying emotions in life, given that he creates their value, is what makes his life purposeful and what it is. Thus, take away his heroine and he does not descend into the darkest pits of despair because that was only a fraction of what made his life what it is. The ubermensch is above the petty justification of addiction that human beings like you and I are enslaved to.

Impressively put.

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: More Celt Than Sassenach
What ASBO means is that even so the universe lacks empirical values men can still choose values that are positive to their strength of character. So while the hedonist may become fat, suffer from many STD's and have an extremely questionable character the realist will attempt to find meaning for ones self regardless of whether the universe provides such meaning or not.

what's wrong with being fat and suffering from STDs, what if the realist finds that his meaning is to fuck BITCHES and eat PASTRIES, is the man of virtue some how SUPERIOR to the HEROIN ADDICT? if so, this dude wants to know WHY he is superior, because, dawg, i just ain't seein' it!
My understanding of nihilism may be different to others here, but my explanation of it may answer your question as to how a nihilist makes claim to what should be valued.

As I see it, the universe was born from chaos, i.e., without purpose. We have no God or objective morality to tell us how to live, and all things that we could value are impermanent due to the constant flux of becoming that is the universe. Therefore, we arrive at nihilism. Our existence is meaningless, and only death is real.

This creates a crisis that we must resolve, which can be done in 3 ways:

1. Kill yourself -- existence is meaningless and death is inevitable, so why postpone the end?

2. Passive nihilism -- existence is meaningless, so nothing is objectively worth doing, and I will live out this meaninglessness as the truth of existence; c.f. fatalism.

3. Active nihilism -- we have been granted life through chaos, and existence is a sandbox for us to play with and find joy; let's craft meaning that grants us the greatest and longest fulfillment in life.

In my eyes, you either decide you enjoy living, or you don't. If you don't, kill yourself. If you do, then realise that existence and joy is a goal and that there are certain ways we can prolong both. We could just live out shallow hedonism as per the second step, but if we're here we may as well make the most of it by recognising that all meaning hitherto has been constructed and we can do the same. So we create values that will give us the greatest joy collectively and individually for the limited time we have.

As per nihilism, the fat slob with the STDs = the pastry-eating bitch-fucker = the Ubermensch. However, as people who value existence and joy, we recognise that the AIDS-infected slob would not enjoy life, and that a society which values STDs and obesity would not last long. Similarly, the pastry-eating bitch-fucker may enjoy his actions, but joy is a secondary phenomenon that comes from a direction. As they're utterly transient, between his eating and his fucking, he's going to feel like shit because his life feels empty without any values. The Ubermensch, on the other hand, is liberated from all constraints in his constant cycles of self-overcoming, and because his life is continuous growth and has self-defined direction, chances are he'll experience joy. The heroin addict is not an Ubermensch because he is not overcoming himself, and is stuck in a stasis of liquid bliss.

We have overcome nihilism and become post-nihilists by choosing to create value rather than receive it or to live in meaninglessness, but are still nihilistic in that we realise that all values are essentially baseless and that we have chosen this path for our own enjoyment.

After all, why the fuck not?

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 06:03:27 PM
We have overcome nihilism and become post-nihilists by choosing to create value rather than receive it or to live in meaninglessness, but are still nihilistic in that we realise that all values are essentially baseless and that we have chosen this path for our own enjoyment.

That's what I was trying to say in my post, but you've articulated it much better.

13X

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 09:04:22 PM
Yes, but I could easily exploit the heroine addict's weakness by removing that source of happiness from his life. When the entire purpose of your life is something that needs to be constantly renewed you aren't railing against traditional values; you're fitting in right along with them. The ubermensch would be a man who understands that all of the varying emotions in life, given that he creates their value, is what makes his life purposeful and what it is. Thus, take away his heroine and he does not descend into the darkest pits of despair because that was only a fraction of what made his life what it is. The ubermensch is above the petty justification of addiction that human beings like you and I are enslaved to.

I agree that the heroin addict was not what Nietzsche had in mind with his Uebermensch concept. Not the point I was trying to make, however. I just don't believe in catch-all claims of one mode of existence being superior to another. Maybe the heroin addict is happy with those few years of eternity followed by death.

My understanding of nihilism may be different to others here, but my explanation of it may answer your question as to how a nihilist makes claim to what should be valued.

As I see it, the universe was born from chaos, i.e., without purpose. We have no God or objective morality to tell us how to live, and all things that we could value are impermanent due to the constant flux of becoming that is the universe. Therefore, we arrive at nihilism. Our existence is meaningless, and only death is real.

This creates a crisis that we must resolve, which can be done in 3 ways:

1. Kill yourself -- existence is meaningless and death is inevitable, so why postpone the end?

2. Passive nihilism -- existence is meaningless, so nothing is objectively worth doing, and I will live out this meaninglessness as the truth of existence; c.f. fatalism.

3. Active nihilism -- we have been granted life through chaos, and existence is a sandbox for us to play with and find joy; let's craft meaning that grants us the greatest and longest fulfillment in life.

In my eyes, you either decide you enjoy living, or you don't. If you don't, kill yourself. If you do, then realise that existence and joy is a goal and that there are certain ways we can prolong both. We could just live out shallow hedonism as per the second step, but if we're here we may as well make the most of it by recognising that all meaning hitherto has been constructed and we can do the same. So we create values that will give us the greatest joy collectively and individually for the limited time we have.

As per nihilism, the fat slob with the STDs = the pastry-eating bitch-fucker = the Ubermensch. However, as people who value existence and joy, we recognise that the AIDS-infected slob would not enjoy life, and that a society which values STDs and obesity would not last long. Similarly, the pastry-eating bitch-fucker may enjoy his actions, but joy is a secondary phenomenon that comes from a direction. As they're utterly transient, between his eating and his fucking, he's going to feel like shit because his life feels empty without any values. The Ubermensch, on the other hand, is liberated from all constraints in his constant cycles of self-overcoming, and because his life is continuous growth and has self-defined direction, chances are he'll experience joy. The heroin addict is not an Ubermensch because he is not overcoming himself, and is stuck in a stasis of liquid bliss.

We have overcome nihilism and become post-nihilists by choosing to create value rather than receive it or to live in meaninglessness, but are still nihilistic in that we realise that all values are essentially baseless and that we have chosen this path for our own enjoyment.

After all, why the fuck not?

Sounds like Absurdism; ever read The Myth of Sisyphus?

I fall into the third group. But, again, I do not fool myself into believing that my mode of existence is objectively superior to those of groups one and two. (I consider drug addicts and hedonists -- like the LaVeyan Satanists mentioned in the OP -- to be an extension of group one.)

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 09:33:42 PM
My understanding of nihilism may be different to others here, but my explanation of it may answer your question as to how a nihilist makes claim to what should be valued.

As I see it, the universe was born from chaos, i.e., without purpose. We have no God or objective morality to tell us how to live, and all things that we could value are impermanent due to the constant flux of becoming that is the universe. Therefore, we arrive at nihilism. Our existence is meaningless, and only death is real.

Nihilism is the realization that no inherent value in the universe is currently discernible rather then not existing. Nihilism is the destroying of all internal notions and building again from nothing and repeating this process ones entire life when inconsistencies within your new ideas form, here you profess knowledge that there is no god, rather than that God is currently not known and may not exist. Nihilism is never about absolutes.


Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 10:00:45 PM
I fall into the third group. But, again, I do not fool myself into believing that my mode of existence is objectively superior to those of groups one and two. (I consider drug addicts and hedonists -- like the LaVeyan Satanists mentioned in the OP -- to be an extension of group one.)

Any mode of being which progenerates the destruction of ecosystems and communities is anti-holistic; human parasites, by their nature, are not exempt from this description. The heroin addict also suffers from what the Stoic would refer to as the evil of ignorance, as he is not realizing his human potential; this could lead to many unfavorable and problematic consequences, such as premature death, lack of understanding, or, simply, fixation on but one approach to human happiness. This approach, in being a singular approach, leaves the individual with a scantily-textured mind. Pleasure is a hierarchical component of a grand, holistic structure; it has its place, but there are other components which both precede and succeed it in the hierarchy. The human brain is capable of much more than the average heroin addict has been led to believe by way of his own obliviousness, and therefore his life will lack the holistic texture necessary to be considered a fulfilling one; he'll also inadvertantly exacerbate the decay around him, making his crisis both personal and supra-personal. In other words, he'll also be indirectly interfering with the overall health of his contemporaries, with whom he shares absolutely no cultural affinities whatever, anyway.

And that's why a heroin addict is objectively inferior to the Ubermensch.

13X

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 10, 2008, 10:59:23 PM
I don't believe that (FUNK!)entelechy is the key to a fulfilling life. I don't think anyone's gonna budge here, it's pointless. Circular arguments, NOT my steelo.

edit: The FUCK IS UP with all these dudes with FIFTY GODDAMN IMAGES at the ends of their posts on all these other metal forums? All like:

"SUP HOMIES any1 else here like MOONBLOOD?

--------------
"

POINTLESS!! NOBODY WANTS TO SCROLL THROUGH ALL THAT at least only make it visible on your first post.

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 11, 2008, 03:03:05 AM
Quote from: More Celt Than Sassenach
What ASBO means is that even so the universe lacks empirical values men can still choose values that are positive to their strength of character. So while the hedonist may become fat, suffer from many STD's and have an extremely questionable character the realist will attempt to find meaning for ones self regardless of whether the universe provides such meaning or not.

what's wrong with being fat and suffering from STDs, what if the realist finds that his meaning is to fuck BITCHES and eat PASTRIES, is the man of virtue some how SUPERIOR to the HEROIN ADDICT? if so, this dude wants to know WHY he is superior, because, dawg, i just ain't seein' it!

You are asking right and wrong, which are moral questions, not realistic ones.

Nihilism means you see life for what it is. That is: survival and excellence. Everything else is an excuse.

You are full of excuses and will end your life as a failure if you continue.
ASBO

“Kurt Cobain was, ladies and gentlemen, a worthless shred of human debris.” - Rush Limbaugh

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 11, 2008, 05:29:20 AM
I don't believe that (FUNK!)entelechy is the key to a fulfilling life. I don't think anyone's gonna budge here, it's pointless. Circular arguments, NOT my steelo.

Isn't entelechy essentially defined as fulfilling potential? Either you're contradicting yourself or I'm misunderstanding. But before you state that fulfilling potential is not synonymous with living a fulfilling life, I'll just say that believing you have lived a fulfilling life and having actually experienced fulfillment are drastically different things. This is something better left to the experiential realm than to the ideational realm; in other words, you'll know the difference once you've experienced the additional layers. As for what this has to do with one's reason for living, if all that separates you from the fatalistic heroin addict is your quantitative advantage with respect to experience, then what is there to argue about? Oh, that's right: He's a parasite, and so also poses a threat to others. But what does that matter, right? Everything's meaningless.

The choices are suicide or fulfillment of one's evolved potential; there is no room for floaty in-betweeners. Even if we preclude realism/naturalism and say that life is about being as happy as possible, the heroin addict still loses from a textural perspective. He's saying one thing and doing the next due to the evil of ignorance.

Anyway, Aristotlean entelechy is a valid idea, but until recently it could be used by anyone to justify whatever they liked. Today, however, we have anthropology, neurobiology, and good old Darwinian evolution on our side to help us define a very specific kind of human fulfillment. There is, in accordance with the biological laws of nature -- laws just as immutable as physical laws -- a right and a wrong way to live with respect to one's place in the whole (and by right and wrong, I mean in the amoral/practical sense).

Here's what you're saying: "Wow, so there's a guy over there with a pair of wings on who thinks he can defy the law of gravity, and then there's another guy over there who's about to enter an airplane. Who says the guy with wings on isn't going to fly?"

Sorry, but he's never going to fly like that. He's either going to have to live with reverence for the law of gravity like everyone else, or die by falling off a cliff.

Re: SMN Forum Woes
September 11, 2008, 07:29:55 AM
My understanding of nihilism may be different to others here, but my explanation of it may answer your question as to how a nihilist makes claim to what should be valued.

As I see it, the universe was born from chaos, i.e., without purpose. We have no God or objective morality to tell us how to live, and all things that we could value are impermanent due to the constant flux of becoming that is the universe. Therefore, we arrive at nihilism. Our existence is meaningless, and only death is real.

Nihilism is the realization that no inherent value in the universe is currently discernible rather then not existing. Nihilism is the destroying of all internal notions and building again from nothing and repeating this process ones entire life when inconsistencies within your new ideas form, here you profess knowledge that there is no god, rather than that God is currently not known and may not exist. Nihilism is never about absolutes.

You may have misinterpreted what I said. What I meant was that "we have no God ... to tell us how to live," not no God, though subjectively atheism is the path I've taken. If a God exists (especially a Judeo-Christian goD), it is by definition unknowable, so any morality derived from such a thing is still only speculation.

The only God I would ever worship would have to be synonymous with Nature, because as I see it Nature is the law that governs all joy, survival and growth.

Sounds like Absurdism; ever read The Myth of Sisyphus?

I fall into the third group. But, again, I do not fool myself into believing that my mode of existence is objectively superior to those of groups one and two. (I consider drug addicts and hedonists -- like the LaVeyan Satanists mentioned in the OP -- to be an extension of group one.)

I have, and sympathise with Camus' absurdism; The Stranger is one of my favourite books. However, absurdism seems an action of active nihilism while stuck in the mentality of the second. In Sisyphus, he ends up concluding that as existence is absurd, there is no more absurd action than to live it even though all things are impermanent. Inevitably, I think that absurdism, like nihilism, is something we overcome.