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Why Relativism Fails

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 12:02:24 AM
Not at all. The two are more similar than namesake, on the surface one may seem like a bunch of maths and little else but that isn't quite the case (I'd be interested to know if anyone else here has actually studied the topic). There is a problem with measurement in General Relativity that is closer to philosophy than science, this is a classical problem and has nothing to do with Quantum theory (which makes things worse). This problem is one of which reference frame you chose to make the measurement, ie your truth depends on your point of view: "that is true for you but not for me." As it is a science then it is *probably* less subjective than its philosophical counterpart, although I'm sure you could construct a contrived situation where apples are measured to be bananas.

No, I think you are.

Relativity is how to measure things in a relative universe.

Relativism is how they ought to be valued objectively, knowing that they are measured relatively.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 12:25:23 AM
Assumptions are different than absolute scientific claims.  The consistency of the speed of light is an assumption, but it's measurement is an approximation.  We will never know with 100% accuracy the exact speed of light.  Any concept is going to have to be based on assumptions.  Science as a whole makes a number of assumptions, and always with good reason.  However, it is possible for the assumptions to be changed/proven wrong/fixed/etc.  I don't see how this relates to what nous was saying.  He was saying that there are two different kinds of sciences, when there is only one.  Also, saying that because physics is empirical makes it absolute is wrong.  All science is empirical.  So using that (flawed) logic, all science is absolute.  Science never makes absolute claims because it must always be willing to except a future alternative explanation.  I think there may be some confusion arising from the term absolute.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 02:50:54 AM
Everyone should become familiar with the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle and observer effect. It basically states that position and velocity of a particle can never be absolutely achieved, even in ideal, perfect situations, that this uncertainty is a manifestation of reality itself.

Also, it is possible to go faster than the speed of light, but no information can be transmitted, and in fact, the exact speed of light has been defined (see this).

Woow. Dat sum fucked up shit.

Edit: changed derived to defined, since it's all made up.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 03:24:23 AM
Everyone should become familiar with the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle and observer effect. It basically states that position and velocity of a particle can never be absolutely achieved, even in ideal, perfect situations, that this uncertainty is a manifestation of reality itself.

Also, it is possible to go faster than the speed of light, but no information can be transmitted, and in fact, the exact speed of light has been derived (see this).

Woow. Dat sum fucked up shit.

To clarify, the Uncertainty Principle states that position and velocity can not be determined at the same time.  You can determine one or the other, but determining one necessarily alters the system because you must interact with it to observe it.  It also has to do with the methodology used to determine such things.  For further explanation use teh netz.

Nile577

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 04:02:53 AM
Quote
That is a good point and perhaps a concise summary of science and its role in determining (finding?) truth. We should state that the goal of science is to be as objective as possible and attempt to describe and explain why our universe (reality) is the way it is. In doing so we must reduce phenomenology and subjectivity, not to be guided by emotion and irrationality but by logic and inductive reasoning.

What does it mean to “reduce” phenomenology? Whose phenomenology do we wish to “reduce”? Husserl's? Heidegger’s? Merleau-Ponty’s? Are you aware that phenomenology arose from a desire to ground the natural sciences apodictically?

General thoughts in relation to the thread:

Important objections can be made to the subject/object schema revolving around the notion of internationality. Humans are only rarely subjects within in objective world. For the most part we are instead always already bound-up in the world.

For example, consider the act of opening a door. We do not understand the door as an object at all. We do not cognitively process a list of instructions on how to proceed in opening it. We simply open the door without thinking about it and walk through. It is only if there is a problem – for example, the handle breaks – that suddenly the door leaps out as an object. In this instance, scientific metaphysics (the subject/object schema) is extremely useful. However, to ground the essence of human being in terms of this schema is bad metaphysics, and is simply describing things as, for the most part, they are not.

Relativism, subjectivism and objectivism are by-products of this schema.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 10:44:41 AM
I would love a detailed description of what exactly "absolute" science is.  There is only one science, the scientific method, and within it 100% accuracy is impossible.

The science you mean is by far not the only science.

Consider this: is it absolutely necessary that a star exists? In other words: could the star be or not be? I say it could.
Is infinity absolutely necessary? Yes, it is.

There you have already 2 different sciences, the one relative, dealing with things that could be or not be, the other absolute, dealing with necessary things.

This is not the right place nor am I the right person to give a detailed description of the absolute science, but I can hint you towards some texts if you're truly interested. I want to avoid any drama, so I'm not posting anything openly here.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 17, 2008, 03:33:13 PM
You are comparing a real world object to an abstract concept.  Infinity is not a thing.  There is no way to observe or test infinity.  It is a mathematical concept.  Infinity is a defined term and part of the assumptions made in science.  It is assumed infinity is a valid concept.  What exactly do you mean infinity is absolutely necessary?  I agree it is a valid concept, but how is it absolutely necessary.  Isn't it possible for there to be a separate reality in which infinity is not a valid concept.  I don't know, but simply saying infinity is necessary doesn't make it so.

I still don't understand what you mean by the science that deals with necessary things.  Are you talking about math or philosophy or something?  Also, wouldn't my heart, brain, and lungs be necessary for me to function?  Do they fall under a separate science?  Wouldn't that star be necessary if we can detect its gravitational pull?

edit:  My previous statement on the speed of light was slightly erroneous.  Here is a rather concise explanation of what I was attempting to say earlier.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 12:56:58 AM
What does it mean to “reduce” phenomenology? Whose phenomenology do we wish to “reduce”?

Reductionism: taking parts of reality to stand for the whole.

Subjective-objective exists: we are individuals.

Disicipline is required to see reality. Pretense destroys it.

Nile577

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 02:26:46 AM
What does it mean to “reduce” phenomenology? Whose phenomenology do we wish to “reduce”?

Reductionism: taking parts of reality to stand for the whole.

Subjective-objective exists: we are individuals.

Disicipline is required to see reality. Pretense destroys it.

Subjective-object exists only rarely: we are more primally bound-up with the world.

Active listening and poetry is required to see reality* : metaphysics destroys it (subject-object totalisation, technological thinking, fascism, Reality(TM), Nikeism, scientism,  AIDS death)

I love you too, and hope that one day you can understand this, but it is possible that you are too old to be helped.

* = And voting no on 8. At least on BB island.

We need more alethia & techne; less propositional truth and commodification. YETH!

Nile577

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 02:45:48 AM
"Der Ister"                                                                                                                 "Der Ister" 
Friedrich Hölderlin (1770-1843)                                                                                        Friedrich Hölderlin (1770-1843)               

Now come, fire!                                                                                                                Jezt komme, Feuer!
We are impatient                                                                                                               Begierig sind wir
To look upon the Day,                                                                                                       Zu schauen den Tag,
And when the trial                                                                                                            Und wenn die Prüfung
Has passed through the knees                                                                                         Ist durch die Knie gegangen,
One may perceive the cries in the wood.                                                                         Mag einer spüren das Waldgeschrei.
But, as for us, we sing from the Indus,                                                                            Wir singen aber vom Indus her
Arrived from afar, and                                                                                                      Fernangekommen und
From the Alpheus, long we                                                                                              Vom Alpheus, lange haben
Have sought what is fitting,                                                                                              Das Schikliche wir gesucht,
Not without wings may one                                                                                              Nicht ohne Schwingen mag
Reach out for that which is nearest                                                                                 Zum nächsten einer greifen
Directly                                                                                                                              Geradezu
And get to the other side.                                                                                                  Und kommen auf die andere Seite.
But here we wish to build.                                                                                                Hier aber wollen wir bauen.
For rivers make arable                                                                                                      Denn Ströme machen urbar
The land. For when herbs are growing                                                                            Das Land. Wenn nemlich Kräuter wachsen
And to the same in summer                                                                                               Und an denselben gehn
The animals go to drink,                                                                                                     Im Sommer zu trinken die Thiere,
There too will human kind go.                                                                                            So gehn auch Menschen daran.

This one, however, is called the Ister.                                                                               Man nennet aber diesen den Ister.
Beautifully he dwells. The pillars’ foliage burns,                                                                Schön wohnt er. Es brennet der Säulen Laub,
And stirs. Wildly they stand                                                                                               Und reget sich. Wild stehn
Supporting one another; above,                                                                                        Sie aufgerichtet, untereinander; darob
A second measure, juts out                                                                                               Ein zweites Maas, springt vor
The roof of rocks. No wonder, therefore,                                                                         Von Felsen das Dach. So wundert
I say, this river                                                                                                                    Mich nicht, dass er
Invited Hercules,                                                                                                                 Den Herkules zu Gaste geladen,
Distantly gleaming, down by Olympus,                                                                               Fernglänzend, am Olympos drunten,
When he, to look for shadows,                                                                                          Da der, sich Schatten zu suchen
Came up from the sultry isthmus,                                                                                       Vom heissen Isthmos kam,
For full of courage they were                                                                                            Denn voll des Muthes waren
In that place, but, because of the spirits,                                                                           Daselbst sie, es bedarf aber, der Geister wegen,
There’s need of coolness too. That is why that hero                                                        Der Kühlung auch. Darum zog jener lieber
Preferred to come here to the wellsprings and yellow banks,                                          An die Wasserquellen hieher und gelben Ufer,
Highly fragrant on top, and black                                                                                       Hoch duftend oben, und schwarz
With fir woods, in whose depths                                                                                      Vom Fichtenwald, wo in den Tiefen
A huntsman loves to amble                                                                                                Ein Jäger gern lustwandelt
At noon, and growth is audible                                                                                          Mittags, und Wachstum hörbar ist
In resinous trees of the Ister,                                                                                             An harzigen Bäumen des Isters,

Yet almost this river seems                                                                                                Der scheinet aber fast
To travel backwards and                                                                                                   Rückwärts zu gehen und
I think it must come from                                                                                                     Ich mein, er müsse kommen
The East.                                                                                                                            Von Osten.
Much could                                                                                                                        Vieles wäre
Be said about this. And why does                                                                                    Zu sagen davon. Und warum hängt er
It cling to the mountains, straight? The other,                                                                    An den Bergen gerad? Der andre
The Rhine, has gone away                                                                                               Der Rhein ist seitwärts
Sideways. Not for nothing rivers flow                                                                              Hinweggegangen. Umsonst nicht gehn
Through dry land. But how? A sign is needed,                                                                Im Troknen die Ströme. Aber wie? Ein Zeichen braucht es,
Nothing else, plain and honest, so that                                                                             Nichts anderes, schlecht und recht, damit es Sonn’         
Sun and Moon it may bear in mind, inseparable,                                                               Und Mond trag’ im Gemüth’, untrennbar         
And go away, day and night no less, and                                                                        Und fortgeh, Tag und Nacht auch, und          ,
The Heavenly feel warm one beside the other.                                                                Die Himmlischen warm sich fühlen aneinander.         
That also is why these are                                                                                                Darum sind jene auch
The joy of the Highest. For how                                                                                        Die Freude des Höchsten. Denn wie käm er sonst
Would he get down? And like Hertha green                                                                      Herunter? Und wie Hertha grün,
They are the children of Heaven. But all too patient                                                          Sind sie die Kinder des Himmels. Aber allzugedultig
He seems to me, not                                                                                                          Scheint der mir, nicht
More free, and nearly derisive. For when                                                                         Freier, und fast zu spotten. Nemlich wenn
                                                                         
Day is due to begin                                                                                                             Angehen soll der Tag
In youth, where it starts                                                                                                     In der Jugend, wo er zu wachsen
To grow, another already there                                                                                         Anfängt, es treibet ein anderer da
Drives high the splendour, and like foals                                                                            Hoch schon die Pracht, und Füllen gleich
He grinds the bit, and far off the breezes                                                                          In den Zaum knirscht er, und weithin hören
Can hear the commotion,                                                                                                    Das Treiben die Lüfte,
If he is contented;                                                                                                               Ist der betrübt;
But the rock needs incisions                                                                                              Es brauchet aber Stiche der Fels
And the earth needs furrows,                                                                                           Und Furchen die Erd’,
Would be desolate else, unabiding;                                                                                    Unwirthbar wär es, ohne Weile;
Yet what that one does, the river,                                                                                     Was aber jener thuet der Strom,
Nobody knows.                                                                                                                  Weis niemand.

(trans. M Hamburger)

<3 <3 <3

If you can find that beautiful, ASBO, it seems we can't possibly disagree about everything.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 04:38:03 AM
I think the people on this BB have an skewed vision of Metaphysical ideas, we are sovereign individuals that co-exist as one, along with the earth, stars and universe. However this truth is experiential, not a belief system which is what A.N.U.S. is making such spiritual ideas to be and if I remember right Osho said "Anyone who gives you a belief system is an enemy". There is a lot of cognitive dissonance used in promoting ideologies...

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 08:21:45 AM
I think the people on this BB have an skewed vision of Metaphysical ideas, we are sovereign individuals that co-exist as one, along with the earth, stars and universe. However this truth is experiential, not a belief system which is what A.N.U.S. is making such spiritual ideas to be and if I remember right Osho said "Anyone who gives you a belief system is an enemy". There is a lot of cognitive dissonance used in promoting ideologies...

Osho was a pervert and degenerate who pretended being a saint, effectively scamming thousands of people.

While the content of this particular message might not be so bad, your accusations in the surrounding sentences is weak. ANUS doesn't advocate belief systems; Nihilism and Parallerism are a mental method and a value system respectively, nothing one should identify with.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 10:21:35 AM
Quote
Osho was a pervert and degenerate who pretended being a saint, effectively scamming thousands of people.

While the content of this particular message might not be so bad, your accusations in the surrounding sentences is weak. ANUS doesn't advocate belief systems; Nihilism and Parallerism are a mental method and a value system respectively, nothing one should identify with.

Osho's syncretic teachings emphasise the importance of meditation, awareness, love, celebration, creativity and humour – qualities that he viewed as being suppressed by adherence to static belief systems, religious tradition and socialisation. His teachings have had a notable impact on Western New Age thought, and their popularity has increased markedly since his death

That doesn't sound like a degenerate to me, however his teachings and he himself is a different subject altogether. As for your perverted claim, that is depending on the frame of sexuality you use.


Quote
Our belief system involves breaking of all taboo, and then re-assessment of what is taboo to find out if it is meaningful. For example, all of us agree that the taboo on incest and child molestation is a meaningful one. We do not agree about taboos on drugs, hacking, race and eugenics, and interestingly, these beliefs alone cause most modern people to object to this site. We are not a populist movement, therefore do not aim to "prove" our ideas to the average person nor do we aim to make a decorative aesthetic object for them to pursue and thus consider themselves "enlightened," therefore we are not concerned about those who are offended. This path is esoteric: it opens only to those who are ready, by breeding and by conditioned mindset, for it.

Lifted from the main website.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 01:53:23 PM
How is it possible to have so many messages about relativism, ontology, subjective versus objective knowledge, even namedropping German philosophers and poets, and not pay attention to how much it is a problem of language and syntax?

I think Jew was going to that direction with the observation about logical contradiction created by the already initial statements, but unfortunately it was dropped.

Re: Why Relativism Fails
December 20, 2008, 02:54:07 PM
Active listening and poetry is required to see reality* : metaphysics destroys it (subject-object totalisation, technological thinking, fascism, Reality(TM), Nikeism, scientism,  AIDS death)

I do not think method is what divides the real from the unreal, as regards listeners.

I think it is focus.

If the individual is determined to find reality and experience it, they will; if they relapse too much into "active listening and poetry" as methods, they will most likely hear the echoes of their own hull.