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Is trolling effective?

Is trolling effective?
January 20, 2009, 03:28:58 AM
I disagree with the Death one. I don't seem to get the Burzum one? Is it insulting Burzum, or macs, or both?

And it's good to hear people don't like Meshuggah. I don't understand how anyone can like them. Just boring nu-metal style chugga chugga.

Septicemia

Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 12:41:37 AM
Can someone, somewhere, show me something concrete that trolling has accomplished?

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 02:36:03 AM
Can someone, somewhere, show me something concrete that trolling has accomplished?

That kid who killed himself on webcam? Maybe?

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 03:31:44 AM
Can someone, somewhere, show me something concrete that trolling has accomplished?

I don't think trolling accomplishes much on its own. Neither does protesting or propagandizing. But they are effective for what they're worth.

http://www.infoterror.com/internet_activism/examples/

http://www.infoterror.com/internet_activism/why_troll/

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 04:03:54 AM
When I first got on, I though "Someone has my account password". Now I see someone split the threads.

Anyway, last week I was trolling a semi-popular guitar forum where everyone hails Meshuggah. Got into a headed discussion about it before I was banned. I learned that most of these people are too ignorant anyways, so for the most part, or at least in this situation, it wasn't worth it because the people being trolled were too ignorant. I think the main reason why people on this forum in particular like them, or think that they do, is because it's no trendy to add useless strings to your instrument. That and/or they are "amazed" by boring, repetitive, and directionless music.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 08:21:38 AM
When I first got on, I though "Someone has my account password". Now I see someone split the threads.

Anyway, last week I was trolling a semi-popular guitar forum where everyone hails Meshuggah. Got into a headed discussion about it before I was banned. I learned that most of these people are too ignorant anyways, so for the most part, or at least in this situation, it wasn't worth it because the people being trolled were too ignorant. I think the main reason why people on this forum in particular like them, or think that they do, is because it's no trendy to add useless strings to your instrument. That and/or they are "amazed" by boring, repetitive, and directionless music.

It's not necessarily that they were "ignorant"; that's a cop-out. Think of it this way: the activist ("troll") needs to get around this firewall they put up around their mind.

As soon as you show any sign of an attempt to help them alter their thought patterns or point of view, they freak the hell out. It's a red flag.

So they're like scared animals, despite your (probably) good intentions. They'll try to bite your crotch out while you vaccinate them.

Sometimes though, you need some of them to go batshit insane to prove to the more intelligent lurkers, and any neutral parties that their side is fucking ridiculous.

Think: Make lemonade out of lemons.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 02:52:10 PM
There's two approaches I find are useful, and I try to make both respectful, because no matter how much better you know than others, scorn is poison:

1. Sympathize with them, understand their point of view, and then talk up whatever it is you like that's most similar and compare it to what they like. "The new Meshuggah uses some brutal palm muting! Reminds me of Suffocation's Pierced from Within. Check out this sample."

2. Indirect and passive responses. Made what they believe ludicrous, as if writing satire, and present it as reality so that they go along with it and eventually, have to face the fact that their most precious beliefs have been turned ludicrous and so even they are starting to hate them. It's a form of reduction to absurdity argument. "You're right, I love God. I love God so much I'm going to do as the Bible says, and leave my family to preach his word. I found this parable about unequal blessings and I'm going to use it to convince people that God is natural selection, and he wants us to wage war on the unbelievers to see who survives." (All successful trolling is of this nature, like the GNAA's awesome Mac OS fake DVD.)

The essence of internet activism is to be indirect. Don't spam them. Find some way to get them ingratiated to an idea, and then at the end of the line, there should be either a goatse or an anus.com link.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 03:05:45 PM
I see. I did it wrong by telling them that Meshuggahs palm muted riffs were boring."How is this even considered good? It's palm muted power chords. I can see how it's related to Mesuhggah, because it is boring. Gojira has come up with much better things than this."
 I went in later to criticize how simplistic the band was, among other things. It was condescending.

I like the idea of turning what they believe ludicrous. Unfortunately I don't think I have the wits to carry this on.  I think a goatse or an anus link would just turn them off completely. They would regard it as spam, and ignore the substance.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 21, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
I disagree with the Death one. I don't seem to get the Burzum one? Is it insulting Burzum, or macs, or both?

And it's good to hear people don't like Meshuggah. I don't understand how anyone can like them. Just boring nu-metal style chugga chugga.

Maybe Meshuggah are the true invertors of "Slam Death"

Either way Trolling can be useful in pointing out how something is plain absurd and can provide comical relief.

Take New Yorkment for Example.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 22, 2009, 07:47:51 PM
The most important thing is that when you convince someone to adopt your viewpoint, they think it was all their own idea.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 23, 2009, 01:23:49 AM

Maybe Meshuggah are the true invertors of "Slam Death"

That "honor" goes to Devourment.

Flame me if you must, but I enjoy Meshuggah's first 3 releases (Contradictions Collapse, None EP, and DEI).  I think that they had an interesting sound of which they chose to disregard the good parts (spacey atmosphere, disjointed speed metal riffing, opposing time signatures where it made sense, etc), and focused on the crappy parts (chugging, off time playing for the sake of it, ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?-styled vocals) which made them into the shitty band they are now.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 23, 2009, 03:44:04 AM
Notes on Technique:

1. Consider the example of the matador and do not get so caught up in the bull in front of you that you forget that your performance is for the audience, not the bull.  "Convincing" an opponent in the throes of self-delusion is wasted effort, instead, maneuver your opponent into error, exposing their delusions and allowing their arguments to do your work for you.

2. A question can be your most powerful rhetorical tool: use it.  When you ask questions, you force the delusional to defend their arguments rationally, a state of affairs which will result either in failure or evasion, both of which work to your advantage.

3. Never fail to call attention to evasion or mendacity on an opponent's part.  It will alert the silent undecideds in your audience to the basic dishonesty of your opponent's positions, and probably enrage your opponent (no one likes to be treated like an idiot or a liar): both outcomes benefit you.

4. Control the shape of any discussion.  It is unlikely that your opponent will have the ability to think strategically (if they did, they wouldn't cling to failed ideas).  Instead, they'll be reacting blindly to stimulus.  Use that to lure them into ambushes that reveal the internal inconsistencies of their beliefs.  Further, do not allow yourself to be drawn off topic.  Your opponents are likely to be caught up in minutiae, so you will want to take care not to allow those minutiae to dominate the discussion.  Ignore the peripheral and force the conversation back to the central issues at hand.

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 23, 2009, 07:10:23 AM
One question, perhaps I lack a sense of humor, and this was something addressed in the opening post, but why the Burzum one?

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 23, 2009, 07:28:35 AM
Here's something I've tried.

liberalforum

Re: Is trolling effective?
January 23, 2009, 09:05:18 PM
2. A question can be your most powerful rhetorical tool: use it.  When you ask questions, you force the delusional to defend their arguments rationally, a state of affairs which will result either in failure or evasion, both of which work to your advantage.

Orly?


When you ask questions it is easy to fall into the ad hominem trap plus you are being lazy about constructing your own argument. I sincerely dislike the use of rhetorical questions in debate, I see it far too often as a pseudo-intellectual tool on many metal forums. How would you feel if I threw lots of questions at you??!!!?!11