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On the importance of VENOM

On the importance of VENOM
January 19, 2009, 03:00:00 AM
Delete the forums and we win.

On the importance of VENOM
January 19, 2009, 03:44:22 AM
Delete the forums and we win.

I doubt it. All public fora suck at times to some extent - it's inevitable. But the useful/productive give and take and debate can be worthwhile also.   

On the importance of VENOM
January 19, 2009, 05:26:02 AM
Most however, are also fully familiar with the fact that Shuldiner was a scumbag to many, many people in the Metal world, including some who were in Death at one point or another. The guy's reputation as a dickhead goes back over twenty years - I heard it from Massacre members in 1987!!

Why is this important? I listen to music for music's sake, not for the personalities or drama behind it. Was Chuck Schuldiner a dick to you personally? Is Kam Lee your brother? Did he beat up your dad? Spreading shit about someone on the internet is about as low as you can go, it reminds me of the snickering schoolchild who'd write those Anarchist's Cookbook textfiles and put "Principal Raynes is gay" somewhere.

On the importance of VENOM
January 21, 2009, 04:17:07 AM
I like Venom's first 3, but I can agree they are responsible for a dumber attitude towards metal. 

In hindsight I cannot disagree with that sentiment although it still doesn't sit well with me. I personally know of NO ONE from the old days who doesn't hold Venom in the highest regard in terms of what they represented, if not for what they actually were. I will confess, the Venom issue is one of the very few areas I just cannot see eye to eye with ANUS, though I can see the broader logic behind the site's position. Maybe it's just the undeniable power of nostalgia - but back in the day Venom was waaaaaay more than just "Motorhead + Hardcore" to most of us - musically and ideologically! It sounds so cliched, but I guess you had to be there...

On the importance of VENOM
January 21, 2009, 07:38:35 AM

In hindsight I cannot disagree with that sentiment although it still doesn't sit well with me. I personally know of NO ONE from the old days who doesn't hold Venom in the highest regard in terms of what they represented, if not for what they actually were. I will confess, the Venom issue is one of the very few areas I just cannot see eye to eye with ANUS, though I can see the broader logic behind the site's position. Maybe it's just the undeniable power of nostalgia - but back in the day Venom was waaaaaay more than just "Motorhead + Hardcore" to most of us - musically and ideologically! It sounds so cliched, but I guess you had to be there...


I can understand where youre coming from, and not that I don't enjoy them from time to time, but I think some of Venom's song titles/lyrics were just cheesy and downright dumb sounding.

I do wonder what it wouldve been like if they hadnt admitted their whole act was a shtick.

On the importance of VENOM
January 21, 2009, 07:43:21 AM
Cheesy and dumb sounding titles and lyrics, even the very best of black metal fails here.

On the importance of VENOM
January 21, 2009, 09:13:00 AM
Cheesy and dumb sounding titles and lyrics, even the very best of black metal fails here.

To say nothing of those dreaded psuedonyms - it was more than a little tough to take someone calling himself Nocturno Culto or Count Grishnak all that seriously when first I heard of the Norwegians. One self-styled Trey Azagthoth was enough to contend in the DM world with at the time!! Ah well, all things in perspective I suppose...     

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 25, 2009, 06:53:13 AM
Venom was extreme metal made accessible to teenage boys around the globe. Thier commercial success made a lot of things possible. You can make any arguement you want about Bathory or Hellhammer or Sodom or Mefisto or Bulldozer, but accessability made Venom invauluable to metal. Thats my view at least, I could be terribly wrong. But i think that back in the day, You would find more copies of Welcome to Hell in a record store than The Return.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 25, 2009, 02:48:39 PM
Venom was extreme metal made accessible to teenage boys around the globe.
They -were- the extreme metal back then.

But i think that back in the day, You would find more copies of Welcome to Hell in a record store than The Return.
That would probably be because Welcome to Hell was out for a solid 3 years before The Return...

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 26, 2009, 12:57:48 AM
[That would probably be because Welcome to Hell was out for a solid 3 years before The Return...

Okaaaaaay......

But i still dont think that Bathory ever- and i mean ever- at any point in the long careers of both bands was ever more acessible than venom.

Let mme put it this way. When The Return hit record stores three years later, I doubt it was in near as many as Welcome to Hell was.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 28, 2009, 08:21:01 AM
I've always regarded Bathory as the first black metal band and more influential too.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 29, 2009, 03:30:58 AM
I've always regarded Bathory as the first black metal band and more influential too.

I think of Bathory as the first "real" black metal band as well. Venom is more of a black metal band in spirit and image, not really so much in music (they were more like evil speed metal).

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 29, 2009, 05:12:34 AM
I've always regarded Bathory as the first black metal band and more influential too.

I think of Bathory as the first "real" black metal band as well. Venom is more of a black metal band in spirit and image, not really so much in music (they were more like evil speed metal).

How so exactly? What specific musical distinctions are you making between the two? I ask because it is quite fashionable in hindsight to invoke Bathory as the purer, more valid entity, yet having grown up with and enjoyed both contemporaneously(allowing for the overlap of Venom being the forerunner on the timeline) I still hear far more similarities than differences musically...and certainly lyrically. Quorthon's vocals, on the other hand, I do believe to be the prototype for what we generally consider BM today.     

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 29, 2009, 07:07:56 AM
Well, isn't practically all Venom an assault of blues-punk riffage in the vein of Motorhead and Tank played too fast, verse-chorus oriented, mostly rather upbeat even though brutal and always using the traditional NWOBHM style phrases ? Bathory seems to hint at building an evil ambience, "softer" you might say, through the way the guitars drone on and the beat remains constant, chorus being understated, already on the first album. But then take something like "Total Destruction" or "Sadist" from "The Return" and the music is definitely closer to something like Discharge or early Cryptic Slaughter than Venom; the riffs become strobing patterns, not bluesy at all, and I don't think its very conventional to structure the song in that way, there is no "chorus riff" at all. This minimalism and primitivism, oriented away from rock music, is what makes the black metal experience for me.

I was also introduced to, and liked, both contemporaneously, but I might be biased from having been familiar with newer black metal already. But I give credit to Hellhammer being the first black metal band clearly distinct from heavy metal; all that stuff they released in '83-'84 is end of discussion, though they admit BIG Venom influence, unlike Bathory.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 29, 2009, 09:21:44 AM
I too have regarded Venom as NWOBHM with satanic lyrics. While their influence on BM  lyrics and the 'image' is not doubted, Bathory not only contributed towards the ambient riffing but also the towards 'romanticism' with is often associated with Black Metal - eg - Burzum, Emperor, Enslaved, Immortal > the top tier of Norse BM. Its up to you to decide what's important - lyrics about killing babies while dressed in S&M paraphernalia or tales of Nihilistic-pagan warriors and wizards.