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On the importance of VENOM

Re: On the importance of VENOM
January 29, 2009, 10:23:36 AM
Fair points all, though I believe with some overly broad bush strokes applied. Perhaps it is important to note that while Venom stayed fairly consistent musically on the "classic" first three(for better or worse), Bathory did indeed vary stylistically from album to album and maybe that is part of why I don't see(hear) this quite as black and white as some. It is certainly true that I do not hear the clear Venom similarities on The Return the way I do on the first release, for instance.   

Maybe I just have too many old, deep rooted biases on this issue to ever see it with true objectivity. Since I thoroughly enjoy and respect both bands(creatively anyway), if even for sometimes entirely different reasons, I will doubtfully ever see one as more important than the other...I blame it on the tremendous power of nostalgia!!   

Re: On the importance of VENOM
February 05, 2009, 09:04:48 PM

In hindsight I cannot disagree with that sentiment although it still doesn't sit well with me. I personally know of NO ONE from the old days who doesn't hold Venom in the highest regard in terms of what they represented, if not for what they actually were. I will confess, the Venom issue is one of the very few areas I just cannot see eye to eye with ANUS, though I can see the broader logic behind the site's position. Maybe it's just the undeniable power of nostalgia - but back in the day Venom was waaaaaay more than just "Motorhead + Hardcore" to most of us - musically and ideologically! It sounds so cliched, but I guess you had to be there...


I can understand where youre coming from, and not that I don't enjoy them from time to time, but I think some of Venom's song titles/lyrics were just cheesy and downright dumb sounding.

I do wonder what it wouldve been like if they hadnt admitted their whole act was a shtick.

I have to agree that Venom's lyrics were downright cheesy at times, but it was the early 80's. It just didn't get any better than until Hellhammer & Bathory came along. Venom's first 3 albums are still essential IMO.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
February 05, 2009, 09:45:52 PM
I've always regarded Bathory as the first black metal band and more influential too.

I think of Bathory as the first "real" black metal band as well. Venom is more of a black metal band in spirit and image, not really so much in music (they were more like evil speed metal).

Venom is what started it all. They had the satanic imagery(though they weren't serious) & they inspired Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Possessed, Bulldozer & Sodom. Bathory took it to the next level & ended up creating the sound that the later BM bands would adopt. Hellhammer/Celtic Frost would also end up being influential to both BM & DM.

To put it simply, if it wasn't for Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Possessed, & Bathory would have never existed. If it wasn't for those bands all the DM & BM bands that popped up in the late 80's/early 90's would have never came along. As cheesy as Venom may have been at times, they are the Black Sabbath of extreme metal.

To state if Bathory is the first real BM band, that's just a judgement call there. Venom coined the phrase & that's when BM was born. Bathory gave BM it's soul.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
February 06, 2009, 06:55:19 AM
Bathory also gave Black Metal its sound, much moreso than Venom. Venom is a heavy metal band and it kind of irks me to see people calling them "black metal" or getting uppity over this issue, but they're also a good band. Black Metal is a fantastic record from start to finish, and the title track is one hell of a thrasher. At War With Satan from the next one is also a good and ambitious track.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 06, 2009, 05:19:58 AM

Venom is what started it all. They had the satanic imagery(though they weren't serious) & they inspired Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Possessed, Bulldozer & Sodom. Bathory took it to the next level & ended up creating the sound that the later BM bands would adopt. Hellhammer/Celtic Frost would also end up being influential to both BM & DM.


Honestly, just a technical point: Mercyful Fate predates Venom by a bit, or if you don't count the older demos, is at least contemporaneous with them.  They don't really sound like Venom.  If anything, early Mercyful Fate occasionally resembles Angel Witch and Judas Priest to me.  I've never heard anywhere that they were influenced by Venom, but if this indeed so, enlighten me.

Venom did really sound like Motorhead though, in every sense of the word.  And, the recognizable Venom influence on Hellhammer starts to fade by the Satanic Rites demo, though I'll admit, is present.  To deny the fact that Venom influenced Hellhammer in some capacity or another is absurd, since the band itself claims to have been influenced by them.  Interesting anecdote though: upon playing "Horus/Aggressor" to a friend of mine not familiar with metal past the 70s, he remarked upon it sounding like a perfect cross between Motorhead and Black Sabbath.  Perhaps Venom was more influential in spirit than in actual music.

Quorthon consistently claims he hadn't heard Venom, and it's conceivable that having listened to GBH and Motorhead, as he claims, he could have come to a similar conclusion musically, seeing as Venom was in essence Motorhead+punk+Satanic imagery.

Haha, my apologies for digging this up a month later.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 08, 2009, 02:40:17 AM
If Quorthon is being honest about not having heard Venom when he formed Bathory (which I doubt), it's interesting so many similar concepts showed up in their early albums.

Sacrifice/Sacrifice
In Conspiracy with Satan/In League with Satan
Raise the Dead/Raise the Dead
The Golden Walls of Heaven/Heaven's on Fire (maybe that's a stretch)

The collective unconscious of metal beginning to form?

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 08, 2009, 11:59:06 AM
The collective unconscious of metal beginning to form?

I like that idea but I know from experience it can be much more straightforward.

In my lyrics and prose I have sometimes used a title or a variation of a title from an existing work (such as "Queen of Winter" from CoF, "Satanic DNA" from Frost, "The Jewel Throne" from Celtic Frost... in the previous two cases for example having done it before having heard the actual songs or records) because the title itself was for some reason stuck in my head from having seen it in a record cover and if the title was inextricably linked in my mind to the story I was telling, I saw no reason to avoid using them.

I don't know how other people hear it but I don't think Bathory or Hellhammer ever sound like Venom at all, even on the early materials. I hear heavy Venom influence in Sodom and Possessed but then they incorporate a lot of other influences, ideas and structures.

NHA

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 08, 2009, 07:24:30 PM
Bathory was influenced by Charged GBH and The Exploited to a fair extent. Basicly, all 4 bands just mixed punk and metal in slightly different ways.

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...the three young men who would make up the first BATHORY line-up, met up outside Musikbörsen, a local music store in Kungsholmen a western borough to central Stockholm.

Ads had been tacked on musicians wanted-boards in music stores and record shops around down town Stockholm by then 17-year old Västerort residing Quorthon. The ads called for members in order to form a band "...in the Exploited, GBH, Motörhead and Black Sabbath style..."

If you look at the songs "Sid Vicious was Innocent" and "City Baby Attacked by Rats" the connection is fairly clear.


As far as the song titles go: most of those seem like obvious choices, given the theme.

Trauco

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 10, 2009, 01:23:39 AM
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Venom did really sound like Motorhead though, in every sense of the word.

Every band that has ever existed has sounded, in varying degrees, like some other, earlier band. Maybe Venom wasn't the ONLY influence on all subsequent Black Metal bands, but they were certainly a significant spiritual influence (coining the name of the style, for starters) and aesthetical one too, although Discharge deserves much more credit in that last respect.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 10, 2009, 01:32:55 AM
Venom is what started it all.

Venom was one of several bands doing this; they were just the most primitive. I assign greater importance to Black Sabbath and Motorhead, Discharge and GBH, the Exploited and King Crimson, Iggy Pop and Kraftwerk, than to Venom. Musically that's correct.

I know many are inspired by Venom.

I find their music insipid and always have. I tried for years to like it; now I don't care. It's just crap. Catchy crap, but if I wanted pop music, I'd listen to Feist.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 14, 2009, 06:42:27 AM
Manheim, the founder of Mayhem alongside Euronymous and Necrobutcher, has said this about Venom:

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Of course Venom played a role in the early years, before black metal as a genre emerged. I know that it sounds strange - how did a stupid band like that manage to influence norwegian black metal? It is a good question. They where kind of childish, Venom.

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Musically their only interseting in a historical sense, and for some of us - bacuase of nostaligia :-)

They held an influence in multiple ways, and one of them was something like, "We can do better than this."

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 15, 2009, 05:29:41 AM
Venom is what started it all.

Venom was one of several bands doing this; they were just the most primitive. I assign greater importance to Black Sabbath and Motorhead, Discharge and GBH, the Exploited and King Crimson, Iggy Pop and Kraftwerk, than to Venom. Musically that's correct.

I know many are inspired by Venom.

I find their music insipid and always have. I tried for years to like it; now I don't care. It's just crap. Catchy crap, but if I wanted pop music, I'd listen to Feist.

Of course, Black Sabbath started it all. They are the pioneers of heavy metal. Motorhead is right up there too. I'm not taking away importance from any of those bands. I credit Venom for coining the phrase. Love 'em or hate 'em, I just don't think BM or DM what have been what it was w/o Venon. Of course, Venom was influenced by Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Discharge & other punk bands from that era. I'm not denying that at all. Then again it all comes back to Sabbath.

Re: On the importance of VENOM
March 16, 2009, 11:01:38 AM
...and Sabbath themselves were influenced by the Jethro Tulls and King Crimsons of this world, probably also quite a bit by Iggy and the Stooges, and most profoundly by the horror movie soundtracks they were trying to emulate in rock music form.

And what were those influenced by?