Metal as anti-humanism/post-Progressive

[death metal black metal]

Examiner.com: What frustrates you most about modern society?

Ivar Bjornson: The way achievement and hard work is looked down upon, while everybody feels they "deserve" all kinds of things. I'm not rich, but I do not hate the rich for it. I have achieved a lot and deserved, because I have made it myself and worked for it. Religion is just a mystical cartoonish version of this way of thinking: How to get everything while doing nothing?

Denver Metal Anal Examiner

He blows it later in the interview, but does a good job of pointing at why modern society sucks: the crowd uses its weight to make us give the irresponsible what the responsible have created, burdening us with parasites. Jesus Christ innovated much of this theory with the idea of humanism, or that people are important just because they're human. Metal is the opposite principle: the world is important, and humans are important when they serve a role in it.

[scourge]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/8d12w/the_best_metal_was_always_postprogressivist/

[Abyssal]

Jesus Christ innovated much of this theory with the idea of humanism, or that people are important just because they're human.

This is only true through the crap encrusted eyes of secular revisionists and starry eyed soccer-mom Christians looking for emotional affirmation at their local congregation. It doesn't work in the context of a religious system where there's an eschatalogical belief in the basic failure and annihilation of humanity due to its frivolous stupidity. It's not coincidental, of course, that this element of Christianity is the most overlooked, both by those who are supposedly Christian and those who would like to reinterpret the religion to fit their humanist agenda.

What is true is that "Christ says" humanity is special. The idea that the human template is sacred, unique and possessed of a certain role (one which you may or may not be alluding to in a parallel in your own post) is not specific to Christianity. It's a trait of virtually every religious system. Note that it does not necessarily imply that each and every human life is important and must be preserved. Essence/potential is not extinguished when bodies and personalities are annihilated. God says "Good riddance to bad rubbish" without an ounce of spite or loss when he consigns whole peoples and nations to nothingness.

When Christ does things like wash the feet of a prosititute it's not just some "DONT B MEEN 2 PEOPLE, GOSH" bullshit. It's intended as a representation of the fact that every human individual derives from a sum which is greater than its parts (i.e, social role). In other words, the inner dimension of a human's existence is more or less rendered invisible to the eyes of a society which calculates all value on the basis of material productivity.

[JewishPhysics]

Christ is a generic figure upon whom people project their own beliefs, values, prejudices, etc.  However, the basic message of Christ is clearly humanistic in nature.  God loves EVERYBODY, every life is sacred, rich people are EVIL (not intelligent, determined, strong, or capable of compassion).  All the (fictional) massacres/genocides in the Bible occur in the Old Testament, which is the one without Jebus.

Essence/potential is not extinguished when bodies and personalities are annihilated.

What?  Am I missing something or are you actually saying that spirits exist in the literal sense?

[Abyssal]

Christ is a generic figure upon whom people project their own beliefs, values, prejudices, etc.  However, the basic message of Christ is clearly humanistic in nature.  God loves EVERYBODY, every life is sacred, rich people are EVIL (not intelligent, determined, strong, or capable of compassion).  All the (fictional) massacres/genocides in the Bible occur in the Old Testament, which is the one without Jebus.

Essence/potential is not extinguished when bodies and personalities are annihilated.

What?  Am I missing something or are you actually saying that spirits exist in the literal sense?

Heh. Yes, you're missing something. I don't believe in ghosts. Or ghost people. I believe in the intellect and in patterns, just like I believe in the world that math symbolically relates to.

Regarding the sacral nature of humanity... There's nothing incompatible with the understanding that God loves everybody and that every life is sacred on one hand, and on the other, the understanding that it's appropriate that people die and things are wiped away. It's kind of like the so-called "problem" of Evil, which is something Christians have an awful time with. When you start thinking in a non-moralistic, non-anthropocentric way though, it's comprehensible how an absolutely benevolent God is also the author of all evil. As far as all the carnage of the old Testament, as I just mentioned, the New Testament isn't complete without Revelations.

I think there are problems with the consistency and articulation of Christianity. But anyway, I didn't intend to derail this conversation into one about explicitly about religion, so I'll just stop here.

[Devamitra]

Essence/potential is not extinguished when bodies and personalities are annihilated.

What?  Am I missing something or are you actually saying that spirits exist in the literal sense?

The original poster already gave an answer, possibly not exclusive, but I was immediately thinking of the "eternal return"; in the sense of Nietzsche, Eliade and the Vedas. Yes, we are talking about a metaphor, but when it's related to a fundamental way of comprehending the structure of existence, it's actually inaccurate to say it's only a metaphor.

[scourge]

I believe in the intellect and in patterns, just like I believe in the world that math symbolically relates to.

It makes sense that the sacredness is with the template rather than every instance of its manifestation. There are after all product defects in manufacture off an otherwise solid blueprint, even recall programs for serious defects which would be like species extinction in this discussion. Come to think of it, even OOP uses an object template from which many instantiations of the same code can be called into memory. But, while RAM gets cleared out and the instances with it, the object template is there to be called into existence as needed again later.

It's kind of like the so-called "problem" of Evil, which is something Christians have an awful time with. When you start thinking in a non-moralistic, non-anthropocentric way though, it's comprehensible how an absolutely benevolent God is also the author of all evil.

It is like having a construction company with a general mission to build things. But, it has a demolition department for removal of corrupted sites.

Metal's role then is to assault corruption (death metal) or stagnation (black metal) of spirit. Rockish entertainment attempts to keep such decay thriving because decline serves as its own nourishment. An uncorrupted civilization would not primarily uphold cheap entertainment/bread and circuses (falling Rome) for the unwashed masses. Meritous excellence would honored instead like during Beethoven and Mozart's time with Europe at its cultural apex for example.

[Stranger]

No one needs a religion to know right from wrong. Right and wrong has been instilled within us by human interactions and collaboration for thousands of years. The only thing religion has contributed to humanity is slave-worship to a supposed celestial god and violence under it's name.

[Cargést]

Exactly.  And also the sense of community, the happiness given to the participant in a non-(self-)destructive religion, and an easy way for simpler people to understand some basic things about life (i.e. washing is good, killing everything you see is bad, etc).

It's all very well saying "everybody knows X should not be done, because it goes against Nature/Common Sense".  However, unfortunately, some people are dense/retarded/need things to be explained to them in a simplistic manner.

[death metal black metal]

Come to think of it, even OOP uses an object template from which many instantiations of the same code can be called into memory.

OOP was a big influence on early ANUS writings.

[Stranger]

It's all very well saying "everybody knows X should not be done, because it goes against Nature/Common Sense".  However, unfortunately, some people are dense/retarded/need things to be explained to them in a simplistic manner.

Unless one is mentally retarded, (literally, not metaphorically) they do know right from wrong and don't need to be told. Those who claim ignorance are attempting to take advantage.

[scourge]

Maybe they need to locate the character genetic traits in addtion to the intelligence traits and acknowledge those genes that play roles in both. I don't want transhumanism to result in an army of genius narcissists for a future human race.

[death metal black metal]

Values consensus is more than knowing right from wrong in the most basic sense (don't rape, don't murder, etc). That's not rocket science and it doesn't require anyone with more than average intelligence.

Values consensus assesses what the goal of a civilization is by what its positive values are. Negative values (don't rape, don't murder, etc) are required for threats; positive values are required for planning.

This conversation has been heavy in internet bloviation: tossing around symbols by category, never approaching the meat of the issue. We can do better.

[Stranger]

This conversation has been heavy in internet bloviation: tossing around symbols by category, never approaching the meat of the issue. We can do better.

If you'd like, you can be the first to post the, "meat" of this issue.

[ASBO]

Right and wrong has been instilled within us by human interactions and collaboration for thousands of years.

Not equally, among neither groups nor individuals.

We can understand basic right and wrong, but what about passive acceptance of destructive acts? People don't blink and they're surrounded by human corrosion. They sort of shrug it off and then wonder why everything around them is slowly losing meaning, disintegrating, becoming disorganized, and so on.

It turns out that even passive acts like burning all your old clothing cause problems for others.

I think there's two basic philosophies: the philosophy of delegating leadership to the external world and believing it'll turn out all right, and the philosophy of making it so.

Progressive theory is part of that first group.