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Metal is Entertainment

Metal is Entertainment
March 25, 2009, 09:16:46 PM
This isn't so much a complaint with the forum itself but with what I've observed in the users. I think my biggest complaing has to be with the METULZ IS SRS BSNSS attitudes that proliferate here.  I know this site is devoted to "serious" appreciation of metal as art, but seriously, how serious can you get? At the end of the day metal, just as any artform, is entertainment. Yes, fucking entertainment, something people get enjoyment from after hours, unless you're a professional musician. When was the last time metal changed the world? When was the last time a metal musician or even a metal fan had anything important to say? "Well, in my view, yadda yadda yadda was blah blah's best album, the rest is just commercialized drivel and throwback speed metal." Good for you, I guess, but who gives a fuck, and why should anyone? As far as I'm concerned at the end of the day it's about getting something out of the music, regardless of what it is (Burzum, Slipknot, Hank Williams, Kidz Bop 5).

The whole (civilized; good luck living outside its constraints) world is one huge economic system. If you want to make a difference, excel at something in it and make a difference there. Start a business, become a politician, be a researcher, an inventor, anything that has to do with the real world and changing its face. "I'm a metal elitist and an internet troll, but I'm kind of a big deal, really" doesn't impress anybody. It really is about how you spend your limited time on this Earth and what you get done with it. If you're capable, you could come up with a technology that everyone in the world will start using and will change the way people live out their lives, or you could spend your time roving around metal bars (when was the last time you spotted a person you'd call a "leader" in one?), listening to albums and treating it all so very seriously, all the while having achieved nothing. It's up to you. It might seem inconceivable to a metal addict who devotes his time to little else but the world is full of things much, much more important than metal, which is pretty trivial, if not laughable really.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 25, 2009, 10:47:55 PM
This argument has been presented countless times here.

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Good for you, I guess, but who gives a fuck, and why should anyone?

Indeed, why should anyone?  You tell us.  The DLA/ANUS, as you mentioned, has a longstanding and broad defense of metal as art.  The information is there for anybody to access.  You choose not to accept the arguments as provided.  "Who gives a fuck" is not a refutation, and neither is mocking bloated straw men.  Posting variations on those two is typically the modus operandi of the most spiteful users this forum sees.

If metal is just entertainment, no different than other music, "potent and efficient" video games, etc., why are you here fighting against it?  Should we accept that you are a troll and move on, or do you have something to contribute that isn't just reactionary bitterness?

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 25, 2009, 11:15:12 PM
Here is a video of a smart man enjoying his music. Show me a video of Varg Vikernes delivering lectures on theoretical physics and I might believe what you have to say about metal. I'm not quite clear on what you want me to refute or if I'd even want to, it's just that something like THIS MUSIC > THAT MUSIC seems like such a petty thing to say, especially when so many people also like "that music", it's like saying one form of masturbation is superior to another one. It's not so much the statement themselves that I'm criticizing as the negative attitudes and vitriol that go into them. Also the ridiculous extents people go to over something so trivial. If we were talking about our investments in civil engineering companies, sure, but when was the last time metal ever built a bridge?

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 25, 2009, 11:57:40 PM
Here is a video of a smart man enjoying his music. Show me a video of Varg Vikernes delivering lectures on theoretical physics and I might believe what you have to say about metal. I'm not quite clear on what you want me to refute or if I'd even want to, it's just that something like THIS MUSIC > THAT MUSIC seems like such a petty thing to say, especially when so many people also like "that music", it's like saying one form of masturbation is superior to another one. It's not so much the statement themselves that I'm criticizing as the negative attitudes and vitriol that go into them. Also the ridiculous extents people go to over something so trivial. If we were talking about our investments in civil engineering companies, sure, but when was the last time metal ever built a bridge?

Varg Vikernes is not a theoretical physicist, so it would be ridiculous to expect him to deliver a lecture on theoretical physics.  Somehow, I'm not sure that specific shortcoming speaks anything about metal as a whole, nor does it detract from the intangible power of the music he has created.  This site has never been about defending metal per se above all else, regardless.  In fact, it has gone farther than any other metal-oriented site to distance itself from cheerleading from the perspective of genre and instead understanding the worth of the form as manifested in its finest elements.  Again, the site contains many resources (here and here for instance) featuring these ideas.  I suggest you read them if you have not.

Musical genres don't build bridges; (groups of) people do.  When is the last time classical music built a bridge?  Why do you think the ANUS site attempts to promote the best metal alongside a philosophy of right-minded action, and not withdrawal, if it doesn't feel that better people can't be built of it?

Clearly, I don't want you to refute anything; your original post challenged notions presented on the site and flippantly denied them for no discernable reason.  That does not even approach what might be construed as an argument; that is provocation.  That might explain why you fail to provide your reasons for being on the "metal forum" for a site that you admit is particularlist about its notions of music even though you are flat-out rejecting the site philosophy and the genre and the rest as "trivial."  Again, shall we assume you are a troll?  Are you asking legitimate and informed questions, or are you hammering on false notions to purposefully annoy and gather negative responses from the readers here?

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
I think my biggest complaing has to be with the METULZ IS SRS BSNSS attitudes that proliferate here. 

Dude, once again:

Forums are open to anyone. There's going to be some poseurs. Don't try to debunk the attitudes of a site by attacking its forum users -- that's stupid. Instead, make a positive response to keep people in line. Anything else is being just as confused yourself.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 12:16:28 AM
Are you asking legitimate and informed questions, or are you hammering on false notions to purposefully annoy and gather negative responses from the readers here?

Legitimate questions.

Why do you think the ANUS site attempts to promote the best metal alongside a philosophy of right-minded action, and not withdrawal, if it doesn't feel that better people can't be built of it?

How? Examples of the better metalized people you're talking about?

In fact, when has classical music or any type of music ever produced the results you're talking about, and why not other types of music besides metal? Why just the metal endorsed on this site?

To me, trying to create a lifestyle out of listening to metal (if I'm getting your drift, that's what you meant; I guess you'd prefer "life philosophy" though) is like trying to base a lifestyle off of watching war movies or reading fantasy literature.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 12:37:15 AM
How? Examples of the better metalized people you're talking about?

There are people on this site and forum itself who have managed the tasks you prescribe in the second paragraph of the original post, and quite readily.  I'm not sure I can be more specific than that.  I also can't say I know the musical tastes of great people in the modern era, whatever their stripe.

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When has classical music ever done so, and why not other types of music besides metal? Why just the metal endorsed on this site?

To me, trying to create a lifestyle out of listening to metal (if I'm getting your drift; I guess you'd prefer "life philosophy") is like trying to base a lifestyle off of watching war movies or reading fantasy literature.

Nobody has insisted on making a lifestyle out of metal; please cite where this has occurred if I am in error.  The link to the ANUS primer does not mention "metal" once.  However:

*ANUS has recognized and delineated certain unique properties that metal possesses
*Metal's finest representatives, whom ANUS promotes, are those whose qualities allow these properties to be most clearly distilled
*The history of the site has allowed it to develop making these two realms, musical and philosophical, parallel; one can see in the best of metal what one hopes to achieve based on the "life philosophies" described in the primer and elsewhere, and vice versa

To insist that ANUS hasn't recognized other forms of music as transformative in a similar manner is simply false.  I don't think it's worth continuing this conversation until you have actually read some of the site material (NOT the forum) and return with relevant questions about it instead of vague notions.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 01:04:28 AM
I'm not sure whether Godkiller actually tried to denigrate ANUS for its fanboys' behavior. It's just that the fanboys who emulate prozakspeak to build an identity of their own tend to miss the point and dwell in solipsistic misery instead of reaching out to those, who don't listen to metal and aren't Nietzschean supermen, but could use some guidance (which is probably quite acceptable unless you've graduated from high school).
As far as "doing something" goes: it's not that different from talking about "stuff". I sometimes get the feeling that those who genuinely do anything in real life (rather than just troll other metalheads to admitting that Sacramentum is way better than Dissection) should brag about it once in a while so that other willing people could get an example of how they could contribute to their respective societies in a positive way. Rather than that, we usually get abstracts. Imagine Arjuna speaking of an abstract battle in abstract space, but not of the fact that his friends and relatives are standing against him on the fields of Kurukshetra.
I remember ASBO/St. Onan/whatever stating, that in the end, music is just another vehicle for ideas which stimulate action. Now imagine not listening to Burzum anymore, but acting on the ideas that Hvis Lyset Tar Oss represents. True appreciation of Burzum doesn't really matter unless it relates to real action.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 02:19:31 AM
words

Your problem seems to be that you think there's a linear scale between the attitudes "ITS ENTERTAINMENT" and "oh dear me, this is a great work of high art" and everyone needs to fall somewhere in between those poles. Or, at least, you're trying to point out that others think this way.

A square's a rectangle, but a rectangle's not always a square:
Anything can be entertaining, especially great artwork, but not everything can be art.

From what I understand, this a forum about discussing the best of metal music as a whole artform, not what we enjoy the best as individuals, or what we're even going to do as a group to squash the Illuminati's evil, Satanic New World Order.

Any action we take is up to ourselves, not to ANUS or anyone else in the world.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 07:09:31 AM
- in my experience it's exactly the inventor/specialist/researcher/warrior/philosopher type of people who like to point out that there's good metal and bad metal, and there's art and there's shit; the metal losers who like to waste time at metal bars are the ones who always bring out this entertainment crap in every discussion because there's nothing else to their lives

- Varg Vikernes is one of the worst examples you can give because I think I've read hundreds of pages of research by him concerning Scandinavian mythology, Norwegian culture, obviously serious stuff whether or not it's quite "orthodox"

- "why not other types of music" - DLA is a metal site I guess? It's insane to try to do everything all at once

- as has been reminded many times, a site is a site, forum posters are forum posters, and that someone sometimes writes a turd of a message does not mean that the whole movement or ideology doesn't have a point

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 10:32:23 AM
it's just that something like THIS MUSIC > THAT MUSIC seems like such a petty thing to say

We are all equal in socialization.

Let us pray.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 01:58:54 PM
it's just that something like THIS MUSIC > THAT MUSIC seems like such a petty thing to say, especially when so many people also like "that music"

um...well. If I recall a lot of people liked Slobadan Milosevic.

The amount of people liking something has little to no reflection of its inherent quality. Tons of people love Lil John, does that mean his music is superior to all others? Absolutely not. Even for hip-hop, his music is incredibly bland, banal, stupid, and one-dimensional. At least artists like Immortal Technique express themselves in a more intelligent manner. So it goes with metal. If youre going to sit here and tell me that nu-metal was a positive thing because a lot of people liked it, then I don't really know why you signed up to this forum.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 26, 2009, 02:40:22 PM
Corrupt did a good job with this chart. http://www.corrupt.org/act/philosophy/

The OP started with a single axis having entertainment and art at the polar extremes. With two or three more axis, we'd find a more realistic coordinate field for where someone finds themselves with regards to metal. You could bisect the first axis with a romanticist and realist axis, further splitting the two with yet another for a 3D array of cubic fields.

Finally, we have a fourth temporal axis, which even the best desktop web publishing software cannot represent without evoking multiple instances of different 3D graphs. This one indicates the definitions of the polar terms during different eras in history. For example, Shakespeare's play audience's view of entertainment might be art by our standards today.

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 27, 2009, 12:52:00 AM
At the end of the day metal, just as any artform, is entertainment. Yes, fucking entertainment, something people get enjoyment from after hours, unless you're a professional musician. When was the last time metal changed the world?

Metal is a part of art and art is a product and simultaneous a component of culture. Culture is not an entertainment (with exception of artificial global culture which exist to fulfill economic needs and secure certain ideas). Culture and art, ideas created or captured by them influenced  through ages so many people and are constantly changing the world. You just want something marketable and "revolutionary" enough when you say about change, right?

As far as I'm concerned at the end of the day it's about getting something out of the music, regardless of what it is (Burzum, Slipknot, Hank Williams, Kidz Bop 5).

If I interpreted it correctly, I agree. But I prefer something which represents values with roots in reality, not in some cheerful wishes. How can you be in deny of fact that art of Slipknot is a part of (and created by) hierarchy of certain values which motivates people to act (or often don't act at all, just enjoy their entertainment) in certain way? And isn't Burzum a epitome of taking action according to (unpopular) values? So what the fuck?


The whole (civilized; good luck living outside its constraints) world is one huge economic system. If you want to make a difference, excel at something in it and make a difference there. Start a business, become a politician, be a researcher, an inventor, anything that has to do with the real world and changing its face.

It's sad that you can't see a need for cultural basis, which art (also metal) and other factors can provide. You are part of the problem, it seems. Economy without a context is what we have already. And I assume, that if you are looking for change you see that something is wrong with status quo. But no matter how wealthy (or efficient in" creating good") world would became, without culture - look for example what cultureless African-American would do with excess of money, and if you wonder why whites are acting the same: because we're becoming more and more cultureless, calmed by global culture, the unculture - effect always would be the same. EVERYTIME. EVERYWHERE.

If you're capable, you could come up with a technology that everyone in the world will start using and will change the way people live out their lives, or you could spend your time roving around metal bars (when was the last time you spotted a person you'd call a "leader" in one?), listening to albums and treating it all so very seriously, all the while having achieved nothing.


Why do you need some new technology to live like you should? You really believe that we need something exterior to change our life to better? It's easy excuse to not take action. Naive I would say. Its like in commercial: you need X and everything will be fine. That wonderful invention would be Universal From Ass Head Pull Outer (tm). Once again it should be noted that art is a carrier of ideas, and few once forgotten but reintroduced to popular culture by metal I regard as a part of solution to today's problems. On the latter part of your sentence: agree, agree...but I always thought that participants of this particular forum suppots that idea. So what the fuck?

eyeofwotan

Re: Metal is Entertainment
March 27, 2009, 01:22:30 AM
It may be useful to articulate the difference between art and entertainment,
any thoughts people?

I think it's fatuous to say "Metal is entertainment" unless you believe all music is just entertainment. If that were the case Mr. Mozart would just be an entertainer. BULLSHIT.
My initial exposure to Burzum was not entertaining, but it was inspiring and challenging, and now I am entertained when i listen to it, but it has never lost its potency.
I can't say the same for SLipknot, which was meaningful to me when i was an angst riden 14 yr old, but has little to offer for serious listners.

As to the "seriousness" of metal..... I think most metalheads want metal to be as simplistic as rock. Sex. drugs and Rock&Roll is a feel good philosophy that requires nothing of its adherents but to fornicate, snort blow and listen to ACDC. Metal, on the other hand suggests that equality is not innate, nor is purpose or meaning, and people are afraid of that.