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I go to church

Re: I go to church
April 22, 2009, 02:36:56 PM
My parents are so happy to see me and it makes my family stronger.

Sounds good to me.

I think instead of attacking the church, and the moral/community/family structure that goes with it, we should infiltrate the church and remove the bad philosophy from it.

Imagine Christianity without:

1. Dualism. The idea of another weird world up there where values are better than this one. Instead, we study values in this world.
2. Pity/equality. Instead of worrying about those who are not adapted to our world, we celebrate the glory of the world.

That would be a non-objectionable Christianity, and a powerful force for good values, as Schopenhauer suggested.

Very good post. Let's remember: Religion gets it's morals from human experience, not the other way around.

Re: I go to church
April 22, 2009, 02:42:26 PM
The organization is like any other large group of humans: susceptible to corruption, weak, fickle, etc. To attack them on this front is almost as valid as blaming you for the corruption in your county.

Not all organizations are the same. Joining a chess club doesn't tell you that you're born evil, as Catholicism does. According to their teachings, you're born with original sin, and in order to save yourself, you need to worship some all-powerful deity, with Hell as a consequence. So, it's practically a forced belief. Well, that sounds swell.

Anyone who wishes to be a slave, enjoy your Catholicism. 

Re: I go to church
April 22, 2009, 02:48:55 PM
My parents are so happy to see me and it makes my family stronger.
2) itself a blockade to cultural development, given the cultural and spiritual disconnects that afflict the West at this time. Doing away with spirituality will not lead to greater consensus or social stability, but rather will serve to further wedge the West spiritually.

Since when is Religion and culture/spirit mutually exclusive. I think people need to understand the difference between the religious and the transcendent. One can be amazed by nature and have a very deep emotional experience from it, WITHOUT RELIGION. Why would I look into the nightsky, only to then wonder about some dumbass martyr who died on a cross?

We'd all be much better off doing away with those extremely ridiculous teachings.

Re: I go to church
April 22, 2009, 03:11:32 PM
I think what makes most sense is:

We need a goal, and we need values.

These aren't the same for everyone so we separate into civilizations.

Over time, these goals change our DNA -- those who fulfill them survive, and those who don't are not represented in the DNA that remains.

We need to be able to derive these values from our world.

Our ability to derive, however, is influenced by our DNA-based abilities and inclinations -- so in turn our culture.

We need to be careful of false symbols, or others speaking for us.

When we find the truth, as Plato suggests, we must leave the cave and go to tell others.

We can encode those philosophies in any form -- as art; as literature; as religion; as science.

We just need to do it, or our society falls.

Re: I go to church
April 22, 2009, 11:55:56 PM
The organization is like any other large group of humans: susceptible to corruption, weak, fickle, etc. To attack them on this front is almost as valid as blaming you for the corruption in your county.

Not all organizations are the same. Joining a chess club doesn't tell you that you're born evil, as Catholicism does. According to their teachings, you're born with original sin, and in order to save yourself, you need to worship some all-powerful deity, with Hell as a consequence. So, it's practically a forced belief. Well, that sounds swell.

Anyone who wishes to be a slave, enjoy your Catholicism. 

The "evil" flows from 2, not 3. Although a reversed argument would be interesting I suppose.

Re: I go to church
April 23, 2009, 10:02:11 PM
The organization is like any other large group of humans: susceptible to corruption, weak, fickle, etc. To attack them on this front is almost as valid as blaming you for the corruption in your county.

Not all organizations are the same. Joining a chess club doesn't tell you that you're born evil, as Catholicism does. According to their teachings, you're born with original sin, and in order to save yourself, you need to worship some all-powerful deity, with Hell as a consequence. So, it's practically a forced belief. Well, that sounds swell.

Anyone who wishes to be a slave, enjoy your Catholicism. 

Catholicism (eww!) aside, we could always interpret that differently:

1. Born with original sin = Born immature, born thinking of only yourself

2. Saving through worship of God = Growing through observation, contemplation, meditation, and reverence of nature / the universe

3. Hell if you don't = Personal (at least) existential angst, lack of values, goals, narcissism, solipsism, etc.

See? Instead of bashing it, we should transform it. Well, maybe.
"It is not the language of painters but the language of nature which one should listen to, the feeling for the things themselves, for reality, is more important than the feeling for pictures." - Van Gogh

Re: I go to church
April 24, 2009, 01:39:12 AM
The organization is like any other large group of humans: susceptible to corruption, weak, fickle, etc. To attack them on this front is almost as valid as blaming you for the corruption in your county.

Not all organizations are the same. Joining a chess club doesn't tell you that you're born evil, as Catholicism does. According to their teachings, you're born with original sin, and in order to save yourself, you need to worship some all-powerful deity, with Hell as a consequence. So, it's practically a forced belief. Well, that sounds swell.

Anyone who wishes to be a slave, enjoy your Catholicism. 

Catholicism (eww!) aside, we could always interpret that differently:

1. Born with original sin = Born immature, born thinking of only yourself

2. Saving through worship of God = Growing through observation, contemplation, meditation, and reverence of nature / the universe

3. Hell if you don't = Personal (at least) existential angst, lack of values, goals, narcissism, solipsism, etc.

See? Instead of bashing it, we should transform it. Well, maybe.

1 - So you think sin can be equated with immaturity? I'm a bad person because I was born into an unknown world? You actually believe that? That is a ridiculous comparison. And thinking for oneself alone is corrected when one sees that they are a part of a community. It's why we stop crying and learn from those around us how things work. It has ZERO to do with religion.

2 - There is a HUGE difference between worshiping a god and worshiping nature. Nature has NO moral obligations, while religion claims to, and then uses that justification to further any cause it chooses. Suicide bombers, anyone?

3 - Hell through religion means eternal pain with no salvation. Anyone to actually believes that a hell even exists is a fucking moron.

Yes, I see. I see that you completely failed to convince anyone of your babble. I appreciate that.

Re: I go to church
April 24, 2009, 03:44:16 AM
1 - So you think sin can be equated with immaturity? I'm a bad person because I was born into an unknown world? You actually believe that? That is a ridiculous comparison. And thinking for oneself alone is corrected when one sees that they are a part of a community. It's why we stop crying and learn from those around us how things work. It has ZERO to do with religion.

2 - There is a HUGE difference between worshiping a god and worshiping nature. Nature has NO moral obligations, while religion claims to, and then uses that justification to further any cause it chooses. Suicide bombers, anyone?

3 - Hell through religion means eternal pain with no salvation. Anyone to actually believes that a hell even exists is a fucking moron.

1. Sin is immaturity because instead of doing what is right in accordance with civilizing principles, sinners please themselves regardless of the consequences, like children.

2. You are talking about worshipping nature, so you must be religious. Also, if you live according to principles, you are religious. Trying to be hip has caused you to lose focus of what religion is despite it being misinterpreted. The crowd misinterprets many things. Nature has no moral obligations, true, that is why monkeys throw feces at each other. Suicide bombers are defending their culture, albeit in a crude way. Islam has been on the decline for centuries just as christendom has, no wonder such things are going on.

3. You're citing a specific example of hell that is a common belief of Baptists. Avoid the straw man fallacy.

I do enjoy reading your posts for setting an example of liberal humanism. Keep it up.

Re: I go to church
April 24, 2009, 04:53:50 AM
Quote from: Stranger
Yes, I see. I see that you completely failed to convince anyone of your babble. I appreciate that.

Why so hostile? The way I see it, we're all allies, trying to make the world a better place. I wasn't trying to "convince", convert, save, or otherwise.

I was merely throwing an idea out there, that perhaps the original, simple message of "Christianity" was misinterpreted by morons and manipulators alike, and so slowly institutionalized, and eventually transformed into a sacerdotal, bureaucratized church full of nonsense myths and morals.

I understand where the New Humanists (Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Stephen Pinker, etc.) are coming from, but until they can point to a successful band / tribe / civilization (or build one themselves) that did not have a religion / spirituality / relationship to the sacred, then they're unfortunately mere reactionaries to be forgotten within a century.

Why fight over the past? Look for what works best, look for patterns, reveal and uphold them, while still allowing room for new ideas.
"It is not the language of painters but the language of nature which one should listen to, the feeling for the things themselves, for reality, is more important than the feeling for pictures." - Van Gogh

Re: I go to church
April 24, 2009, 06:01:46 PM
All I know is that anyone who had any upbringing in the Catholic church (the ones I know rejected it in their early teens) still carry around a reflexive guilt mechanism that affect their choices in weird and conditioned ways that even they don't realize sometimes. It's really quite sad. As discussed above, Christianity (and particularly Catholicism) instill upsetting and sometimes contradictory ideas in people from an early age. It's institutional neurosis, and who needs that? I went out with a girl who was raised catholic and I couldn't ever trust her to be decisive in a difficult situation, especially one where she perceived a moral dilemma. I'm glad I came from a Presbyterian background. I shook that off by the time I was 8!

Re: I go to church
April 24, 2009, 07:18:55 PM
I understand what you are all saying, but I could never take part in all this.  It sounds like history repeating itself.  It sounds like the Christianization of Europe all over again.  It is an organized religion that absorbs and makes you think you can practice your own beliefs, as did the European traditions.  In the end it destroyed their culture and it ultimately led to what we have now. 


I think this goes against a lot of the things we talk about on this website, but the part that did speak to me was the line about "I am over myself".  I liked the line but saw no proof of it in his posts.  He thinks he is saving people.  He is already using the jargon.  The Christian God will always aprove of you sir, now go off and continue deifying the weak.

Re: I go to church
April 24, 2009, 09:33:25 PM
But wouldn't it be even more "egotistical" of me to think that by simply not going to church I am somehow crippling the entire Christian religion?
His Majesty at the Swamp / Black Arts Lead to Everlasting Sins / Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism / Oath of Black Blood / Privilege of Evil / Dawn of Possession / In Battle There is No Law / Thousand Swords / To Mega Therion

Re: I go to church
April 25, 2009, 01:03:45 AM
1 - So you think sin can be equated with immaturity? I'm a bad person because I was born into an unknown world? You actually believe that? That is a ridiculous comparison. And thinking for oneself alone is corrected when one sees that they are a part of a community. It's why we stop crying and learn from those around us how things work. It has ZERO to do with religion.

2 - There is a HUGE difference between worshiping a god and worshiping nature. Nature has NO moral obligations, while religion claims to, and then uses that justification to further any cause it chooses. Suicide bombers, anyone?

3 - Hell through religion means eternal pain with no salvation. Anyone to actually believes that a hell even exists is a fucking moron.

1. Sin is immaturity because instead of doing what is right in accordance with civilizing principles, sinners please themselves regardless of the consequences, like children.

2. You are talking about worshipping nature, so you must be religious. Also, if you live according to principles, you are religious. Trying to be hip has caused you to lose focus of what religion is despite it being misinterpreted. The crowd misinterprets many things. Nature has no moral obligations, true, that is why monkeys throw feces at each other. Suicide bombers are defending their culture, albeit in a crude way. Islam has been on the decline for centuries just as christendom has, no wonder such things are going on.

3. You're citing a specific example of hell that is a common belief of Baptists. Avoid the straw man fallacy.

I do enjoy reading your posts for setting an example of liberal humanism. Keep it up.

Re-read everything I've said. Maybe reading it a bit slower would help.

Re: I go to church
April 25, 2009, 01:37:27 AM
I think some of you have either been molested by priests or listen to too much post-1996 black metal. Either way, i think the best direction for this topic is crystal meth and some miscegenation (jews allowed)

Re: I go to church
April 25, 2009, 05:15:11 AM
But wouldn't it be even more "egotistical" of me to think that by simply not going to church I am somehow crippling the entire Christian religion?

You are putting words in my mouth.  I never suggested it would.  Who would suggest that?