Death, Chuck Schuldiner & Christianity

[Relapse]

To write-off Chuck's achievements because of his religion shows how you guys are elitist pricks.  Youre no better than the fucking catholics that look funny at people that they think theyre better than.

and for that stupid fucker who said "how are we supposed to be treated equal, and seen as individuals" or whatever you said... Being an individual is completely different from equality.  No matter what background you come from or intelligence you have, you should be given an equal opportunity to express yourself.  Youd be surprised at who has decent ideas if youd stop closing off everyone you think is inferior to you.  Equality in no way effects your individualism, it just gives you a chance to express it.

You guys also mentioned that he made "heavy metal with death metal vocals".  Even if this is true, he never proclaimed himself any sort of death metal jesus.  In his interviews he completely ignored subgenres. "Metal is metal".  In my oppinion, he probably tried to keep himself distant from what developed into early death metal, a lot of which sounds exactly the same.  He wrote what he wanted to, dont over analyze his subgenres, since he ignored them completely.

I percieve RIP as basically acknowledgment to what a person had acheived in their lifetime, rather than "rest in peace".  Really, if it offends you that much, either respect the thoughts of the person saying it, make up your own perception, or shut the fuck up.  Id probably prefer people saying things like "Thanks Chuck" though.

Have fun proving me wrong about everything I said, cause you clearly are the smartest people alive.

[Relapse]

Reacting emotionally doesn't help much in such pitiful situations. The plot is as follows : someone dies, and people who didn't even knew him start to weep over him, no matter if they don't have a single reason to do so other than fear of their own mortality and subconscious desire for retribution (when I'm dead, you will say good things about me too, huh ? you will ? please, I did for every moron who died in the last 20 years !). If he wasn't dead, nothing would have happened ; but as he's dead now, more and more people feel the need to point out how intelligent he was, what a wonderful person he's been, and his music suddenly achieves new heights -- for some reason to some people Death albums sound better since their frontman died. Countermeasures occured : some people reacted violently against this attitude, sometimes by attacks oriented towards the now cadaver himself (some justified, some questionable). Neither of these attitudes are what I consider to do : I don't fucking care about his death, and if you were true to yourself you probably wouldn't either. How can someone weep over people he didn't even know ? Instead of doing this, it would be more effective to focus on the people you know, both alive and dead, to honour them, and to overcome the fear of your own mortality instead of escaping it by weeping over random people (voyeurism on other people's deaths is a common life-affirming method for the self. disgusting, but common).

Note : the "you" in the last sentence is used as a mean of expression, not as a specific remark addressed to Relapse.

i agree wholeheartedly with most of the stuff you said.  but still that doesnt mean hes a worthless piece of shit.  I hate it when people get more credit for being dead than they did in their lives.  Its a shame that its chuck died thought, and he DID accomplish a lot in his life, and that should be recognized.  The christianity thing was what probably bothered me the most.  And really, your post was one of the first intelligent things said AGAINST chuck that ive read.  Thank you for keeping your own thoughts but not completely disrespecting mine, like a lot of people on this board do.

I agree that people are respected too much after they die, but honestly, I think chuck was a very influential person, and should be seen as that for his accomplishments in life, and people were saying he never did anything right, because other people are overreacting about his death.  Im somewhere in the middle.

[scourge]

Darth Vader will remain more than a thousand times more popularly loved a character than Chuck and for more than twice as long right now. Darth Vader is not even a real or worthwhile person.

[death metal black metal]

Being an individual is completely different from equality.

I agree with this part.

Suck Chuldiner is dead, and was overpraised as a hero. Notice that Atheist fans recognize Roger Patterson's contributions without turning him into some object of pity on a cross. Pity is not respectful, even to Suck and his family.

Instead of getting all weepy about Suck, or even getting mad at Suck, how about sending even a few bucks to some guy who isn't dead yet but cannot pay his medical bills?

Spike From DRI Has Cancer, but Suck Chuldiner Died of AIDS

[Relapse]

I agree with this part.

Suck Chuldiner is dead, and was overpraised as a hero. Notice that Atheist fans recognize Roger Patterson's contributions without turning him into some object of pity on a cross. Pity is not respectful, even to Suck and his family.
[/url]

I think our general ideas are similar, but certian aspects are different.  I agree with most of your statement.  He IS overpraised, and I never said he wasnt.  I definaely recognize Roger Patterson's contributions, but dont make him into more than he ever was because of his death.  But what pissed me off was that you were saying he didnt do anything to contribute at all.  I understand that the "OMG HE DIED SO HES OUR SAVIOR LOL" people exhist, but that has nothing to do with the dead person at all.  Frustration with those people doesnt make me strictly opposite though.   I agree, I'm sick of hearing how great he was but Chuck should be remembered exactly how he was before his death, and I dont remember anyone posting how 'theyre glad he's dead and want to dig up his corpse and make his mother watch'.

His contributions were great, christian or not.  Not superhuman, but great.  If not his contributions, his achievements.  I.E. The music he made, not necessarily the impact it left on the genre.

[stoopid_dumm]

I hope Chuck is in midget hell, getting kicked around by a multicultural assembly of "little people"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gay+midget+porn

[Darkened Ascent]

I don't think I've seen so many idiots in one place (the Nile chat).

[Fieldmouse]

To write-off Chuck's achievements because of his religion shows how you guys are elitist pricks.

Well, this evidently needs a little clarification:

We are elitist pricks.
We are elitist pricks whether or not we judge Chuck on the basis of his religion or not.
Some of us don't judge Chuck at all, but are nevertheless elitist pricks.

[Now that I've insulted you I'll attempt normal discussion. Sorry.]

On topic: I had no idea that the case of Chuck could be so sticky. Nor did I think that metalheads were such humanists. I should have known better; I realise that now. Metal is merely a flirt.

Relapse, your last post was a good one. I think the only difference remaining is that you don't grant the anti-chuck propaganda the status of being separate from the persona also. Chuck is being used and abused here, and theatrically so. Neither position has much do to with him per se.

I guess you think that with death things might be a bit different. Certainly the anti-chuck propaganda is as tasteless as the pro-chuck, but it is offered in a different spirit. Perhaps this is why the metal context is meaningful to our debate: it's not necessarily that death and life and pain and joy mean nothing because we listen to death metal, but that the way we discuss them might be liberated from negative social obligations of communication: we might be moving through to a less insincere way of being.

What do you think?

[Relapse]

Chuck is obviously being abused by the Pro-Chuck people as a meaningless target of inspiration...  I just dont see how making him personally a target of tasteless comments make it better.  It would be a lot more effective to say "people who overemphasize his death should rot in midget hell"  rather than "i hope chuck is rotting in midget hell".

And my oppinion hasnt changed whatsoever throughout this entire time, ive just explained it more thorough, so if you think youre changing me..

anyway, the music you listen to should nt make you all think exactly the same.  it can make you think different, but perception of art is supposed to make you individual, rather than trying to fit into a large crowd.

[Fieldmouse]

 I just dont see how making him personally a target of tasteless comments make it better.  It would be a lot more effective to say "people who overemphasize his death should rot in midget hell"  rather than "i hope chuck is rotting in midget hell".

In a way, because it would take the mature angle, but the base alternative taken by SRP cuts that much closer to the bone, don't you think? What really gets people is not what someone else thinks of them, but what that someone thinks of/ does to their idol. Which is quite telling methinks.

And my oppinion hasnt changed whatsoever throughout this entire time, ive just explained it more thorough, so if you think youre changing me..

Not at all, just elaborating on the subject of your criticism.

anyway, the music you listen to should nt make you all think exactly the same.  it can make you think different, but perception of art is supposed to make you individual, rather than trying to fit into a large crowd.

I think individualism is a stickier pie than that, to be honest. Have you seen Life of Brian?

[death metal black metal]

This amused me:

This is their 3rd release, it's new and it's kickin' white power metal. Ultimatum dishes out a punishing blow.

WARNING CHRISTIAN METAL
Reviewer: S.R. Prozak
The music is uninspired except for its enduring speed. The message is tedious and doesn't belong in metal. When these poor misguided folks say "white power metal" in their copy, they mean white metal that is also power metal, where white metal = Christian metal. That they didn't notice this incoherence is warning sign #2; warning sign #1 is the Christian band in an anti-Christian genre.

http://cdbaby.com/cd/ultimatum

Summary: Christian band is too coked out on God to notice that to most people, "white power metal" does not mean "Christian power metal" but something else entirely.

[TC]

that last comment amused me.  just the thought of someone doing a "line of god".  

i must need more coffee.

also amusing how everyone opposed to this writing-off of CS has glazed over the allegations of pedophillia.  if you're purposely ignoring it because there is no proof that's one thing, but in my experience there is usually some truth even in the most ludicrious rumors.

[Pandaemonium]

http://www.metalandhorrormovies.com

[Relapse]

http://www.metalandhorrormovies.com

ahh what the fuck is that?

Trivium and As I Lay Dying were both listed under Thrashmetal. BAH!

Im gonna go smoke some freebase christ.