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Kurt Cobain

Kurt Cobain
October 28, 2009, 01:17:04 AM
And to think we all had bad things to say of Nirvana

http://www.datejesus.com/sermons/cobain/

your thoughts?

"Now that the trend sheep have wandered away or been led to whatever popular style MTV or "alternative" radio stations are pushing today, there is finally an opening of space in which to objectively evaluate Cobain and Generation X, both of which have passed into fatality. Though many members of Generation X treated Cobain as an icon, the link between the two was far from reciprocal because most who claimed Cobain as an inspiration fundamentally misunderstood him and his message."

Re: Look what the cat dragged in
October 28, 2009, 03:35:02 AM
Cobain was a flash in the pan compared to Gen X icon Ozzy Osbourne.

Re: Look what the cat dragged in
October 28, 2009, 04:28:41 AM
That's an interesting link, thanks for sharing. Cobain seems like he had a bit of a messiah complex though.

Gen X should be redubbed "1st Wave of Hipsters". Coincidentally, Wiki says that Generation X is the first generation with widespread access to television. This must not be any mere coincidence.

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 28, 2009, 09:06:55 AM
We should really start going through houses and smashi their televisions. Or maybe just start the Castration=beer foundation

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 28, 2009, 10:22:11 AM
Interesting read. From what I've read and heard of Cobain, I can agree with the fact that he is mocking gen X. but it seems to me as if there is very little difference between his mockery and the complaining and bitter whining, which he mocks. His music sounds so drenched in self pity. If he really loathed the passivity so much, why didn't he create anything joyous or heroic, as an example of what he would like to see culture turn to?

Kind of the same phenomenon as Marilyn Manson or Xasthur, but at least they are so over the top that they at least create a beast of their own, ugly and undesireable as it may be. Nirvana sounds inclusive to me.

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 28, 2009, 05:39:33 PM
I can agree with the fact that he is mocking gen X. but it seems to me as if there is very little difference between his mockery and the complaining and bitter whining, which he mocks. His music sounds so drenched in self pity. Nirvana sounds inclusive to me.

Agreed, the author gives him way too much credit. Cobain both critiques his generation and is its leading representative. That most of the fans were too dim-witted to pick up on his finer points doesn't vindicate him or his band.

Gen X should be redubbed "1st Wave of Hipsters". Coincidentally, Wiki says that Generation X is the first generation with widespread access to television. This must not be any mere coincidence.

The "grunge" and "alternative" music subcultures were definitely precursors for hipster irony. I think the whole idea of the hipster, of pretending to like something for ironic purposes ("it's so uncool that it's cool"), could probably be traced back through every counterculture that ever existed in industrialized Western democracies. It seemed to really come to the forefront in the early 90s though.

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 28, 2009, 06:34:04 PM
I'm sure no one here disagrees that Nirvana was more pop-rockish than art.

But one time, man, I totally tranced out to smells like teen spirit and had a transcendental experience. So it must be art. Fuck you haters.

Gen X should be redubbed "1st Wave of Hipsters". Coincidentally, Wiki says that Generation X is the first generation with widespread access to television. This must not be any mere coincidence.

The "grunge" and "alternative" music subcultures were definitely precursors for hipster irony. I think the whole idea of the hipster, of pretending to like something for ironic purposes ("it's so uncool that it's cool"), could probably be traced back through every counterculture that ever existed in industrialized Western democracies. It seemed to really come to the forefront in the early 90s though.

Agreed.

Part of the problem may be that Gen. 1st Wave of Hipsters (formerly known as Gen X) is afraid to stand behind any particular idea, unless it is convenient, or gives them instant gratification. At least the hippies, as far as I could tell, actually believed in what peace and happiness they spouted and repeated mindlessly.

So they chanted Kumbaya and believed the world would get better. A little action is better than none, right? Even if it only strengthens the solipsist paradigm?


Pardon my soapboxing here -- Although it's probably wrong of me to say that the 1st Wave of Hipsters don't believe in ANYTHING. They believe in what gratifies them NOW - no matter how short-lived or transient - and they put that idea first, and act accordingly, if we look at belief systems as blueprints/codes of action. This code is like a destructive virus that sweeps through and infects the weak-minded like HIV, from an early age.

They are taught that those who "believe" in something are not rewarded, they are egoistic (true in some cases), and are only looking for a reward - double true. Why would anyone take on a belief system that wasn't rewarding? That would defeat the entire point of holding a belief system. It would also defeat the point of holding a belief system if it enslaved you. Solipsism is tantamount to self-enslavement, not freedom.

People who "believe" in something are considered threatening to the un-self-disciplined solipsists because they have a blueprint of action that goes beyond the typical:
1) get handjob from hooker, snort blow
2) watch television, drink PBR
3) write ironic self-referential strawman in ordered list form; note how contrivedly absurd it is
4) smirk smugly

As responsible, pragmatic nihilists, it makes more sense to only take on beliefs that work for us. Belief is seldom as good as knowledge and wisdom. So a "belief" that is in line with reality isn't a "belief" so much as tried-and-true knowledge.

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 28, 2009, 08:54:06 PM
I'm going to surprise you. I think that he succed in something which they call "artistic self-expression". His music is for sure a language. A language of weak, directionless and cultureless creature, trapped by its contradictive leanings. When you hear his music you know all that, which means, that by using his method, he accomplished his goals.

Music of such person (if he/she want to self-express through it) cannot be consistent, organized, structured, healthy and beautiful, instead it must be disjointed, passive and narcisstic.

Now, the content of his music isn't something worth praising. Which leads to other criteria: even if art is good at communicative level is what it tries to communicate of any worth? Cobain was mostly obsessed with his dysfunctionality, lack of social empathy, alienation etc.(obligatory components of rock).

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 29, 2009, 05:32:30 AM
I'm going to surprise you. I think that he succed in something which they call "artistic self-expression".
[...]
Cobain was mostly obsessed with his dysfunctionality, lack of social empathy, alienation etc.(obligatory components of rock).

Yes. But talking about this stuff is like throwing rocks at a dead guy... which is a bit funny, 'cause he's dead too

---- What did you think about the finer points of the article?

Most of us dodged the linty crap about Cobain's own dysfunction and watering-down of already-pop-musical content for the useful, insightful information, because we weren't at all interested the drama or the people involved or what they did, so much as the ideas and things proposed through it all. It could be the goddamn Village People and not Cobain, and it would seldom make a difference...

I'm not sure if I should've done that, then..?

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 29, 2009, 06:31:08 AM
"Though many members of Generation X treated Cobain as an icon, the link between the two was far from reciprocal because most who claimed Cobain as an inspiration fundamentally misunderstood him and his message."

Maybe because it was incoherent, and more concerned with being nuanced and aesthetically appealing than having any logical consistency.

Kurt Cobain's death was a victory for eugenics. We don't need more halfwit droning songwriters.

He was one of the "empathy is the answer" fools at the core of his being. A social parasite whose only goal was no goal, and who finally destroyed himself not because of the pain of Crohn's disease -- how stupid do you have to be to believe that? -- but because existentially, he'd been spent and hateful for 20+ years.

Unlike Jim Morrison, who at least had the decency to construct a solid vision before self-destructing in the anti-hero, Kurt Cobain left this world much like the rest of his generation, in a pastiche of trash. Heroin. Self-pity. Dysfunctional relationships. And always blaming someone else.

It's psychologically healthier to idolize Britney Spears!

Quote
Cobain was not so much a mouthpiece of Generation X as he was one who openly spoke and mocked its confusion, lack of focus, nihilism, indecisiveness, and self-chosen helplessness.

The hipster is always self-mocking and ironic to avoid taking responsiblity.

Quote
The children of Generation X became lost as a reflection of the climate in which they grew. They watched their parents try to fake answers and a path as the first truly lost generation who had to face growing up in the cultural decimation of the post-World War 2 era.

The way Generation X interacts with the world, or rather avoids interaction with it, is worthy of study. Even their parents who faked it conceded that there was an underlying reality to accept. In contrast, the children they raised are so numb that they fail to acknowledge reality just as they have lost sight of any dreams or hopes they might have had in their youthful years.

This will be the legacy of Generation X. They know how to fake all the right words and gestures while keeping a safe distance from anything meaningful and real. They especially keep away from that which might bring the weight of having something of value in their lives.

How is this different from the previous two generations?

One should look to the 1920s for the answer, which is nothing.

Generation X is unique in that after rebellious behavior, group behavior, anti-establishment behavior and counter-revolutionary behavior, Generation X were the people who recognized that nothing is done for the purpose stated. There was nothing left to believe in. A world of memes and media saturation was nothing but marketing. And what did they do with that? The same thing previous generations did: turn it into individualism, which in turn becomes crowdism ("for me to be an individualist, we must make it a right for all people; that way, others will fight for my right to be individualist").

Re: Kurt Cobain
October 31, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
Although it's probably wrong of me to say that the 1st Wave of Hipsters don't believe in ANYTHING. They believe in what gratifies them NOW - no matter how short-lived or transient - and they put that idea first, and act accordingly, if we look at belief systems as blueprints/codes of action. This code is like a destructive virus that sweeps through and infects the weak-minded like HIV, from an early age.

They are taught that those who "believe" in something are not rewarded, they are egoistic (true in some cases), and are only looking for a reward - double true. Why would anyone take on a belief system that wasn't rewarding? That would defeat the entire point of holding a belief system. It would also defeat the point of holding a belief system if it enslaved you. Solipsism is tantamount to self-enslavement, not freedom.

People who "believe" in something are considered threatening to the un-self-disciplined solipsists because they have a blueprint of action that goes beyond the typical:
1) get handjob from hooker, snort blow
2) watch television, drink PBR
3) write ironic self-referential strawman in ordered list form; note how contrivedly absurd it is
4) smirk smugly

As responsible, pragmatic nihilists, it makes more sense to only take on beliefs that work for us. Belief is seldom as good as knowledge and wisdom. So a "belief" that is in line with reality isn't a "belief" so much as tried-and-true knowledge.

I think this section of this post alone should be enough to explain to any intelligent person the benefits of reading Plato's Republic in its entirety.