Militarism, Masculinity, Metalheads

[wahn]

I suggest you find a high ranking traditional chinese martial arts master and train under him. The military is an entirely secular institution whose sole purpose is to defend (whatever that means) a country. Do you really want to put your life on the line so that Exxon Mobil has access to oil? Dont believe all these idfeals people construct around war.  It has nothing to do with the mental and spiritual  (ie ethical) growth. Becoming a complete person is something eastern culture has pursued for 5000 years in very tangible and embodied ways (zazen, qi gong, kung fu) and is, philosophicall, far superior to anything you will learn at the military if personal growth is your goal.

[Athanasius contra mundum]

I suggest you find a high ranking traditional chinese martial arts master and train under him. The military is an entirely secular institution whose sole purpose is to defend (whatever that means) a country. Do you really want to put your life on the line so that Exxon Mobil has access to oil? Dont believe all these idfeals people construct around war.  It has nothing to do with the mental and spiritual  (ie ethical) growth. Becoming a complete person is something eastern culture has pursued for 5000 years in very tangible and embodied ways (zazen, qi gong, kung fu) and is, philosophicall, far superior to anything you will learn at the military if personal growth is your goal.

I wholeheartedly encourage martial arts training. The self-discipline and well-being that is cultivated in such a practice is unrivaled. However, I feel that not all positive views about war are simply attempting to glorify it for egotistical reasons. I, for one, simply react to my surroundings. If those reactions require force; than so be it.

[wahn]

Valid point. I think that is sensible. I just want to get away from the idea of war as some sort of salvation.

When choosing a martial art: select from those that involve meditation. Although I think what UFC competitors study (BJJ, MT, MMA) does seem to be very effective in actual combat, dont overlook the fact that there are other things different martial arts can do; things which cannot be judged in the form of entertainment and competition.

[Istaev]

I suggest you find a high ranking traditional chinese martial arts master and train under him. The military is an entirely secular institution whose sole purpose is to defend (whatever that means) a country. Do you really want to put your life on the line so that Exxon Mobil has access to oil? Dont believe all these idfeals people construct around war.  It has nothing to do with the mental and spiritual  (ie ethical) growth. Becoming a complete person is something eastern culture has pursued for 5000 years in very tangible and embodied ways (zazen, qi gong, kung fu) and is, philosophicall, far superior to anything you will learn at the military if personal growth is your goal.

a. I raised the idea of joining the military for personal reasons, not ideological reasons. My concern is for character building in the Aristotelian sense and learning martial values (which Westerners lack) through complete immersion in them, at least temporarily.
b. not to knock 'em too much but traditional martial arts aren't practical in any objective sense and eastern philosophy is less applicable (and arguably inferior) than western philosophy as well as some Hindu schools (notably Advaita Vedanta).
c. I advocate understanding your own culture before exploring another's.

[wahn]

I suggest you find a high ranking traditional chinese martial arts master and train under him. The military is an entirely secular institution whose sole purpose is to defend (whatever that means) a country. Do you really want to put your life on the line so that Exxon Mobil has access to oil? Dont believe all these idfeals people construct around war.  It has nothing to do with the mental and spiritual  (ie ethical) growth. Becoming a complete person is something eastern culture has pursued for 5000 years in very tangible and embodied ways (zazen, qi gong, kung fu) and is, philosophicall, far superior to anything you will learn at the military if personal growth is your goal.

a. I raised the idea of joining the military for personal reasons, not ideological reasons. My concern is for character building in the Aristotelian sense and learning martial values (which Westerners lack) through complete immersion in them, at least temporarily.
b. not to knock 'em too much but traditional martial arts aren't practical in any objective sense and eastern philosophy is less applicable (and arguably inferior) than western philosophy as well as some Hindu schools (notably Advaita Vedanta).
c. I advocate understanding your own culture before exploring another's.

a. Good points. My critique of the army as an institution still stands, however, and if you think the benefits of joining outweigh all the other crap, that is obviously your choice.  From what I know about Aristotle's character ethics, whose basic premise i admire, is that Aristotle believed character mostly to be developed in childhood and through good parenting. I knew someone who fought in the Canadian forces and he was a complete failure in many respects so there is no necessary comnection between knowing how to hold a rifle and being a superior human being. From what Ive heard about war psychoogy: after the second world war when boot camp was introduced, the shoot to kill rate among soldiers sky-rocketed by the time of Vietnam. Never forget that the military exists to brainwash you not educate you.
b. You would have to justify that conclusion in more detail for me to respond.
c. I'm a generalist not a specialist. As Goethe said of language: he who knows one, knows none. I count nationalists who've never lived i another country as some of the dumbest people around.

[dawn]

Basically, this is what I'm going for, to start with: http://www.army.mod.uk/UOTC/5458.aspx

That looks good. I wish I had joined that sort of thing while in university. I went to an information session while in school about the air force, but I didn't like the culture of kissing your supervisor's ass to get a promotion and moving up the ranks. If I had done it it would have been for skill-development and companionship.

You will find the same culture in any corporate job.

[scourge]

I suggest you find a high ranking traditional chinese martial arts master and train under him. The military is an entirely secular institution whose sole purpose is to defend (whatever that means) a country.

There are actually quite a few people in the world who have done both

[wahn]

I suggest you find a high ranking traditional chinese martial arts master and train under him. The military is an entirely secular institution whose sole purpose is to defend (whatever that means) a country.

There are actually quite a few people in the world who have done both

Please name them, the martial arts they studied and their modern military experience. I know there was a famous Japanese martial artist who was also an adamant soldier. But then gain, Master Taisen Deshimaru, founder of the AZI, gave up judo *entirely* to pursue (to use a cheesy word) enlightenment through meditation.

I do not deny that there are tangible benefits to some military training. However, I still argue that certain martial arts are, with respect to manifesting virtue in one's character, superior to boot camp. Of course this to a degree touches on what one values (and I am still waiting for Istaev to justify his seeping assertion that Western thought is superior to Eastern) but you can spend your entire life running through the forest with a rifle and you will never understand that thoughts are just the expression of desire, the qi can induce conscious halucinations and drastically increase longevity - the highest virtue in my books. If, on the other hand, you think neo-conservatism is the "end of history" you will doing very well in most modern militaries. Further, all the experiences that are of philosophical value in war can all be had in an attempt at taking down the current system by perhaps joining the environmental movement. I'm tempted to say that for many people military service amounts to some sort of semi safe tourism. Life isn't one big heavy metal song or action movie.
 

[scourge]

I'm pretty sure the thoughts cease when the head explodes. Random example: .308 Winchester, range: 1100 meters. Agree or disagree?

[wahn]

I'm pretty sure the thoughts cease when the head explodes. Random example: .308 Winchester, range: 1100 meters. Agree or disagree?

You didn't answer my question. Everyone here knows that traditional Chinese martial arts aren't as effective in modern warfare; that much is obvious. Also, please look at the body of literature evincing Chi Kung's ability to heal cancer and then take a look at the statistics: how many people die of cancer  and how many of a "308 Winchester, range: 1100 meters"?

To clarify: we are talking about the value of military service. Istaev's thesis: military service builds character. My antithesis: martial arts does so in a more profound way. Please disprve my thesis - I am open to intelligent arguments.

[Devamitra]

Life isn't one big heavy metal song or action movie.

I disagree here. Life is a dynamic experience built out of sequences of fear and wonder. There is a narrative and there is plenty of action. A good heavy metal song or a good action movie is an imitation, or a ritualistic representation, of the drama of creation and the arising of order from chaos. What else is necessary for the life of a warrior?

[Henriksson]

When it comes to military service, IMO it's no harm to anyone.. People are in pathetic physichal shape..
And about war... Well, it's never right or righteous, but if people start to refuses to go army and use weapons, they have no shelter against attacking enemy, so it's their own stupidity if they don't appreciate independence enough to fight back for it..

[Ratatosk]

To clarify: we are talking about the value of military service. Istaev's thesis: military service builds character. My antithesis: martial arts does so in a more profound way. Please disprve my thesis - I am open to intelligent arguments.

This sounds fascinating, as I am at a similar crossroads in my life.
The quickest way to go about this is to lay out the supporting arguments. Can you do this Wahn and Istaev? Otherwise we'd have to assume them and perhaps make a mess of this thread sorting it all out.

[wahn]

To clarify: we are talking about the value of military service. Istaev's thesis: military service builds character. My antithesis: martial arts does so in a more profound way. Please disprve my thesis - I am open to intelligent arguments.

This sounds fascinating, as I am at a similar crossroads in my life.
The quickest way to go about this is to lay out the supporting arguments. Can you do this Wahn and Istaev? Otherwise we'd have to assume them and perhaps make a mess of this thread sorting it all out.

I think Istaev and Scourge should answer first.

[Heydrich]

I'm pretty sure the thoughts cease when the head explodes. Random example: .308 Winchester, range: 1100 meters. Agree or disagree?

A head exploder at 1100 meters would likely require at least a .300 WinMag or better a .338 LapuaMag, or .50BMG.   

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