Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Why metal bloomed in the 1990s

Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 02, 2009, 06:09:05 PM
Black Sabbath made it clear their concept was to make musical horror, and to defecate on the hippies who were telling us that all we needed was love (shorthand for "socialization, altruism and polite tolerance of anything").

The kids growing up in the 1980s, born out of the chaotic period that birthed metal, grew up in an entirely permissive world created by those attitudes, although people tried to hold on to "practical" concerns. Your parents couldn't tell you to not take drugs, drink, or have sex because... they did these things. In spades.

The 1990-peaking generation, therefore, were hellbent on destruction -- either of themselves, or of the illusions that made the world they grew up in. Much like kids rebelled against the stodgy 1950s and post-war pretense of America and Europe, kids rebelled against the stodgy hippie bullshit they suffered under through lack of guidance, no social order, and so on.

Kids in the 2000-peaking generation were born in the early 1980s and the Reagan period, and so they have nothing to rebel against but the counterreaction, and are completely lost when it comes to understanding this music -- with a few notable exceptions who realize its outrage, like that of the Romantics, is against a calcified order of appearance and not reality, and their conduit to reality is nature/deep introspection (not individualism).

I find this interesting. Maybe you will.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 02, 2009, 08:46:51 PM
I do find this interesting.  Here is what I will add:  the hippies seemed to be a true opposite (aesthetically and idealogically) to the 50s.  However, the aesthetic and ideology of death meal and black metal of the 90s is not so much an "opposite" of the hippies but more of an "exaggeration" of certain hippy ideals like "freedom" and excess.  Aesthetically, death metal and black metal seems to say to the hippies:  you want freedom? you want excess? you want lawlessness?  This is lawlessness!  And here is the horrifying conclusion.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 02, 2009, 09:29:16 PM
The hippies wanted freedom, but they wanted freedom for the masses. To achieve that they limited the freedom of the individual which eventually led to the politically correct society that black and death metal oppose. Black metal and death metal want freedom for the individual and say fuck the masses (basically)

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 02, 2009, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that Black Metal goes beyond that, to show that "Freedom" is an illusion, as there is nothing to be free from but our own ideas and understanding.

Example: I am totally free to take this steak knife I have here, go downstairs, and kill the bartender.  I am physically capable of doing this.  However, there is a law against murder in this country, thus people would say that I am not "free" to murder.  In Reality, I'm free to do anything which I can "will" my body to do.  In theory, I'm not.  As far as most humans would have it, I'm not.  It makes the world a hell of a lot simpler if we limit our own "freedom".

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 02, 2009, 10:13:03 PM
I'll also add that the original punks (Iggy Pop, The Ramones) had the same mentality; they wanted their own freedom and weren't concerned with the social sensitivity of others. The difference however is that punk didn't have the progressive elements of metal both in music and in mind. Thus punk died fast to be reborn as the Sex Pistols, then died again to be reborn as the Exploited, then died again and was reborn as... etcetera ad nauseum.

Black Sabbath were hippies, they were just the culmination of the occult obsession that the hippies had in the sixties. But they came out in 1970 when it was becoming "incorrect" to associate yourself with such things. Especially after the Manson murders which symbolized the ugly side of the hippie movement, the hippies were distancing themselves from the occult and further embraced the humanist side of christianity.

Other than that I agree with Conservationist that to understand black or death metal you need to examine the generation that created it, and that means listen to the classics. The original concepts of black and death metal aren't to blame for the more recent lack of quality, the confused approaches to making the music are.


I would say that Black Metal goes beyond that, to show that "Freedom" is an illusion, as there is nothing to be free from but our own ideas and understanding.

Example: I am totally free to take this steak knife I have here, go downstairs, and kill the bartender.  I am physically capable of doing this.  However, there is a law against murder in this country, thus people would say that I am not "free" to murder.  In Reality, I'm free to do anything which I can "will" my body to do.  In theory, I'm not.  As far as most humans would have it, I'm not.  It makes the world a hell of a lot simpler if we limit our own "freedom".

So you are objecting to the freedom of the masses by pointing out the lack of individual freedom you have. But as you suggest individual freedom requires responsibility, amirite? True true, but freedom is definitely not an illusion. It's just a subjective word: what means freedom for one doesn't have to mean freedom for the other. Someone's freedom might limit the freedom of another. But if you really think freedom is an illusion then why didn't you kill that annoying bartender yet? Prison shouldn't scare you...

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 03, 2009, 01:29:28 AM
put it this way:  the hippies seemed especially butt-hurt about the 50s and so chose an aesthetic in a REactionary sense - you're up tight, we will be loose.  Metal was counter-rebellion, but at the same time didn't react to the permissive hippy culture in such butt-hurt, resentful fashion.  Sure, the metal aesthetic frowns upon the "looseness" of the hippy culture, but metal is not exactly "up tight."  I agree with ANUS that metal is the modern-day standard bearer of Western Romanticism, and in this sense, is more than simply a counterreaction to the permissive 80s in the way that the hippies were a reaction to the 50s.  But it does explain why metal bloomed in the 90s.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 03, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
So you are objecting to the freedom of the masses by pointing out the lack of individual freedom you have. But as you suggest individual freedom requires responsibility, amirite? True true, but freedom is definitely not an illusion. It's just a subjective word: what means freedom for one doesn't have to mean freedom for the other. Someone's freedom might limit the freedom of another. But if you really think freedom is an illusion then why didn't you kill that annoying bartender yet? Prison shouldn't scare you...

For one, I am not objecting to the freedom of the masses.  We don't need this thing called "freedom", especially if this thing called "freedom" is the same "Freedom" that we're being sold today, which hardly makes us "free", but, rather, enslaves us to currency/possessions.

The bartender wasn't annoying, I was simply making the point that I could very easily, physically, go and kill someone.  I have the "freedom" to do whatever it is that I can "will" my body to do.  However, society/humanity imposes......

Jesus Christ, I can't get into this at 2:15 AM.  Basically, the beginning of Plato's Republic, where it is explained that law and justice came about as a mutual agreement between people that they wouldn't harm each other, thus "freedom" ends up being human social construct (that is, "freedom" the way we see/use it today), it doesn't exist anywhere outside of our minds, so, yes, it's subjective.  Also, Crowley and Thelema, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" implies that one not impose one's own will upon another's will - this is akin to our modern concept of "freedom", we are allowed to do whatever we want so long as it doesn't "cause damage", to put it loosely.

I hope you understood what I was trying to say, there, I really need to sleep.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 03, 2009, 05:08:54 AM
So you are objecting to the freedom of the masses by pointing out the lack of individual freedom you have. But as you suggest individual freedom requires responsibility, amirite? True true, but freedom is definitely not an illusion. It's just a subjective word: what means freedom for one doesn't have to mean freedom for the other. Someone's freedom might limit the freedom of another. But if you really think freedom is an illusion then why didn't you kill that annoying bartender yet? Prison shouldn't scare you...

For one, I am not objecting to the freedom of the masses.  We don't need this thing called "freedom", especially if this thing called "freedom" is the same "Freedom" that we're being sold today, which hardly makes us "free", but, rather, enslaves us to currency/possessions.

The bartender wasn't annoying, I was simply making the point that I could very easily, physically, go and kill someone.  I have the "freedom" to do whatever it is that I can "will" my body to do.  However, society/humanity imposes......

Jesus Christ, I can't get into this at 2:15 AM.  Basically, the beginning of Plato's Republic, where it is explained that law and justice came about as a mutual agreement between people that they wouldn't harm each other, thus "freedom" ends up being human social construct (that is, "freedom" the way we see/use it today), it doesn't exist anywhere outside of our minds, so, yes, it's subjective.  Also, Crowley and Thelema, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" implies that one not impose one's own will upon another's will - this is akin to our modern concept of "freedom", we are allowed to do whatever we want so long as it doesn't "cause damage", to put it loosely.

I hope you understood what I was trying to say, there, I really need to sleep.

You should leave the computer more often when you're tired ;) What I read is a long statement why 2+2=4. I think I understand what you're trying to say but I don't understand why you are saying it. Was there anything I wrote that you disagreed with? Because the topic seems to be drifting atm.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 03, 2009, 05:23:45 AM
What he said made perfect sense the first time, I don't really see why this was made more complicated than it had to be in the first place?

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 03, 2009, 11:42:10 PM
Quote from: FenrizTheBrazilianTranny
You should leave the computer more often when you're tired ;) What I read is a long statement why 2+2=4. I think I understand what you're trying to say but I don't understand why you are saying it. Was there anything I wrote that you disagreed with? Because the topic seems to be drifting atm.


I think the point he's trying to make is that freedom (existentially) and rights (societally) are two distinct concepts and that metal is a reaction against the forced melding of the two. A person in North Korea is just as free to complain about the government as a person in Canada is, but only one of those people has the right to do it. Metal (well, meaningful metal) taps into a growing feeling that the industrialized world has replaced freedom with rights and that some people are (sometimes literally) dying to look behind that veil. Metal gives a voice to that frustration with society.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 04, 2009, 12:06:15 AM
A person in North Korea is just as free to complain about the government as a person in Canada is, but only one of those people has the right to do it.

Oh come on, what kind of amateur philosophy is this? These are just word games, maybe the person in Korea has more of a "moral right" to complain but he doesn't have the "lawful right" to complain, blablabla ohboyarentyousmart. I think that was I was trying to say is that the topic seems to be drifting, these word games are just going to add more confusion. I asked if he (or anybody else) disagreed with anything that I wrote, if this isn't the case then I suggest we move on. Otherwise I might begin to suspect that some people are typing just for the sake of being in this thread (which is the type of "individualism" I abhor)


The kids growing up in the 1980s, born out of the chaotic period that birthed metal, grew up in an entirely permissive world created by those attitudes, although people tried to hold on to "practical" concerns. Your parents couldn't tell you to not take drugs, drink, or have sex because... they did these things. In spades.

The 1990-peaking generation, therefore, were hellbent on destruction -- either of themselves, or of the illusions that made the world they grew up in. Much like kids rebelled against the stodgy 1950s and post-war pretense of America and Europe, kids rebelled against the stodgy hippie bullshit they suffered under through lack of guidance, no social order, and so on.

Kids in the 2000-peaking generation were born in the early 1980s and the Reagan period, and so they have nothing to rebel against but the counterreaction, and are completely lost when it comes to understanding this music -- with a few notable exceptions who realize its outrage, like that of the Romantics, is against a calcified order of appearance and not reality, and their conduit to reality is nature/deep introspection (not individualism).

I find this interesting. Maybe you will.

Fuck yeah that's interesting! Let's discuss that.

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 04, 2009, 01:15:46 AM
Actually, I think the entire internet is amateur philosophy. The concepts that I was talking about have been casually discussed by amateurs like Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Plato, Parmenides, Hegel, and Machiavelli. And thanks for noticing that I'm smart; I think you're pretty smart too! :)

And I don't know that I agree with you. At the risk of playing word games with you, could you flesh out your theory of freedom and metal's place in it? After all, you've said that the hippies wanted to bring freedom to the masses at the expense of the individual (prompting early punk/metal reactions), but you've also said that individualism is not in and of itself a desirable thing. Is it desirable then to curtail certain freedoms? If so, why oppose hippie utilitarianism? Alternately, are we looking for a certain class that is worthy of individuality and another class that is not? You have also pointed out that distinctions between different types of freedom are not valid in the context of this conversation, however, so I'm not sure what your overall contention becomes.

To return to the initial point regarding the changing standards in permissiveness and the structure of social orders, I am curious to see at what point the wheel will come around again. If we take a look at the last 50 or so years microcosmically, we can see certain trends that have repeated themselves over time. In antiquity, the quality of Western art precipitously declined after the third century. A stable order was disrupted for half a century, during which time no important works of art or learning were created. A form of stability returned within another century, but came with the added cost of the ultimate hippie amateur philosophy, and culture again took a nosedive after this new system eventually bred anarchy and fragmentation, the recovery from which took centuries more. Are we going through the same thing now on a smaller scale?

Re: Why metal bloomed in the 1990s
December 04, 2009, 01:29:14 AM
My disagreement is only with concepts which go against what I have stated here.  You yourself made statements contrary to my own, Fenriz, therefore I must assume that we are at ends on certain topics.