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The Return of the "Nativists"

The Return of the "Nativists"
December 06, 2009, 10:08:26 PM
News article on how Switzerland is dealing with Islam.

Quote
But the right-wing Swiss People’s Party struck a chord by telling voters that there was still a binary choice: either they would be subjected to misogynism and cruel punishments in the name of Islam, or else their existing culture, based on liberal Christianity, would prevail. Minarets were shown as a menacing force: on posters, dark shapes (resembling both minarets and missiles) rose from a Swiss flag.

Typical cultural conflict finally coming to a climax regarding immigration, at least in Switzerland.

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 06, 2009, 11:12:00 PM
Wow.. I feel this close to home. I read a lot of the comments from that article and I was very impressed by the responses.  And of course there was responses from other Europeans. This makes it easier for me to really discuss subjects of this nature. It truly is a european problem, ad it would make sense that we discuss it between ourselves.

I could not really discuss this with most americans about this,(for the most part members here are excluded) as one commenter responded that there is not this issue occuring quite yet in America.

I have been here 20 years in this country, I speak english, and I am VERY well knowledged in  America history and culture"(naturally I use this word loosely) I feel very wronged that I am looked at as a fool for wanting to ride my bike everyday, shop for healthy food, speak italian or share italian culture, drink espresso, etc. It is the Italians who helped share in passionately building  this country with its knowledge of business, art etc, and I would only hope that I can enjoy my life with all this hassle. Well either way I make my way around such issues.





Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 06, 2009, 11:23:31 PM
Switzerland is a successful nexus of German, French and Italian. Now, there is Islam. Why?

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 12:05:58 AM
The whole Minaret ban is great, Islam belongs in the thrash can.

*ninja edit* we need to see more of this rationale in Europe I say, Sweden sucked ass and I hope that Finland has a bigger brain *



Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 12:28:44 AM
I think one of the most interesting places where this issue has sprung up in Europe is the Netherlands. Parties who lean both to the left and to the right see Islamic immigration as detrimental, but for different reasons: on the left, Islam is seen as standing against the tolerance and hippie-like atmosphere upon which these people pride themselves; on the right, it's an issue of incompatible traditions and cultures.

France had a chance to effectively address this problem but failed to do so. As a result, roughly 10% of the population adheres to Islam, with the majority of these people being first and second generation immigrants living in urban areas (where they naturally account for a higher proportion of the populations of those areas). I also once read that Germany now has almost twice as many Muslims as Lebanon does. Note that the Muslim populations in all of these countries are outpacing those of the respective natives, the latter of whom do not reproduce even at the necessary rate of population replacement.

The Swiss vote is perhaps a positive first step, but I wonder how long it will take for an Islamic "Civil Rights Movement" to sweep the continent and be met with teary introspection and promises to make things right.

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 01:50:35 AM
^yeah weltmacht is prolly right, the real problem is rabid islamist rights.

Islam has no point in Europe!

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 03:07:16 AM
Could not be said any better! Oh wait... the sound of my sword slicing through the herds of invaders!

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 03:16:27 AM
< meta >
I hope they get bbs.anus.com back quickly...
< /meta >

Just as a personal aside, I don't know diversity of any kind that works. It ends up being a cruel joke on all participants. Any kind of diversity, and in any kind of group. Too many different worldviews in a friend group and it'll split up or, worse, become plastic and insincere. Families shatter when people aren't going in roughly the same direction. I'd say that for all the attention we pay to ethnic/cultural diversity, it might be time to look at the ones we fear: moral standards, class, regional and personality type diversity.

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 04:18:07 AM
HA because I may never get along with a French person ; )

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 06:51:54 AM
moral standards, class, regional and personality type diversity.
religion...

The Swiss should ban atheism from their country first. There are more atheists than Muslims in Switzerland. What does this accomplish other than to feed Islamophobia?

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 02:47:27 PM
Quote from: nous
The Swiss should ban atheism from their country first. There are more atheists than Muslims in Switzerland. What does this accomplish other than to feed Islamophobia?

Except that the atheists in Switzerland are the indigenous people.  Also, there's no such thing as "Islamophobia."  That word exists only as a propaganda tool to equivocate people who criticize Islam and Muslim immigrants with racists and Nazis.

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 06:08:08 PM
Except that the atheists in Switzerland are the indigenous people.  Also, there's no such thing as "Islamophobia."  That word exists only as a propaganda tool to equivocate people who criticize Islam and Muslim immigrants with racists and Nazis.

Indigenous people can be quite stupid. Nationalism can have a positive "face", if it unites a nation with regard to a higher goal than the nation itself; a nationalism that justifies every stupidity in the name of the nation is nothing but a degeneration, a victory of mob spirit over true values.

I know that I do not share this premiss with many here, but I value religion; and while it is clear to me that exoteric Christians cannot accept Islam as just another path to salvation, I wonder why atheism should have any more right to the Swiss nation than, say, Islam. If you have a valid argument other than "religion is trash" or "everything for the nation", I'd wish to hear it.

I used the word "Islamophobia" to denote a very sentimental fear of Islam (as opposed to a spiritual and thereby legitimate fear) which I often observe. It was not my intention to manipulate anyone by using it.

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 07:35:02 PM
Quote from: nous
I wonder why atheism should have any more right to the Swiss nation than, say, Islam.

I don't think atheism has a right to the Swiss nation.  I think the Swiss nation has a right to self determination.  If that means they want to be secular/atheistic then that's their decision to make.  If they wish to be a Christian, pagan, or even Islamic nation, then that's also their decision.  The point is that decision belongs to the Swiss people, not the hordes of Muslim immigrants.

You seem to be implying in your post that being Swiss and being an atheist are mutually exclusive groups, when that is clearly not the case.  How can you not see the difference between Swiss people internally changing their minds about "spiritually" beliefs, and Muslim immigrants imposing that change on the indigenous people?

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 09:42:55 PM
I don't think atheism has a right to the Swiss nation.  I think the Swiss nation has a right to self determination.  If that means they want to be secular/atheistic then that's their decision to make.  If they wish to be a Christian, pagan, or even Islamic nation, then that's also their decision.  The point is that decision belongs to the Swiss people, not the hordes of Muslim immigrants.

A nation is not the good-in-itself as which your argument presents it. If one has values, homogeneity will certainly help with implementing or upholding them; but more important are the values themselves. A nation can be perfectly homogenous and at the same time perfectly crowdist. The nation is only a vector with no default direction.

Quote
You seem to be implying in your post that being Swiss and being an atheist are mutually exclusive groups, when that is clearly not the case.  How can you not see the difference between Swiss people internally changing their minds about "spiritually" beliefs, and Muslim immigrants imposing that change on the indigenous people?

No, I wasn't implying that at all. I merely said that being Swiss is no excuse for making wrong decisions.
The question whether immigrants are allowed to impose changes on the indigenous people is another one, and I see that clearly. It is possible to answer it to the negative and still call the decision to ban Minarets wrong.

Even if the Swiss were all fervent Christians, and thereby the decision justified, it would still not be justified because they were Swiss, but because they were fervent Christians.

Re: The Return of the "Nativists"
December 07, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
There seems to be a conflation of two different issues going on here.  The right of a people to make their own decisions, and the legitimacy of those decisions.  I'm not saying that whatever the Swiss decide to do is right because they decide it, simply that one must respect their right to make that decision.  To the specific case of the minarets, I don't believe the decision is justified because they are Swiss, merely that the decision lies with the Swiss people.  I personally don't think banning minarets is justified, in fact, it's pretty retarded.

To go back to your point about atheists, I would simply say that if you can look at the state of Europe right now and say that atheists are a larger threat to homogeneity than Muslims, you must have some irrational prejudice clouding your judgment.