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How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

Has anyone read that book by Thomas Woods?

Article by th author at http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0101.html

From the book as per the review:

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The Jesuits were also the first to introduce Western science into such far-off places as China and India. In seventeenth-century China in particular, Jesuits introduced a substantial body of scientific knowledge and a vast array of mental tools for understanding the physical universe, including the Euclidean geometry that made planetary motion comprehensible. Jesuits made important contributions to the scientific knowledge and infrastructure of other less developed nations not only in Asia but also in Africa and Central and South America.

The idea that Jesuits introduced science to India and China is laughable when there has been and continues to be clear evidence that Vedic Hinduism or even post Vedic Hinduism much before the spread of Christianity, science and mathematics were well known.

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Non-Christian cultures did not possess the same philosophical tools, and in fact were burdened by conceptual frameworks that hindered the development of science. Jaki extends this thesis to seven great cultures: Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya. In these cultures, Jaki explains, science suffered a "stillbirth." My book gives ample attention to Jakiís work.

This is even more ridiculuous. Thomas Woods provides no concrete proof of such history. Has this man read ANY eastern text? Has he read the Bhagavada Gita or the Yajur Veda(which contains science and engineering)?

Thomas Woods with that book revises history so radically it seems like he has expressed fantasies and wet dreams of any fanatical Catholic(looks like he is one of them).

I always have considered Christianity, Islam and Judaism as cancer to humanity. There are some noteworthy aspects to the Semitic religions but nothing special that non-Semitic religions don't have.

Ideally Semitic cultures should be confined to the Middle East. They have no place in Asia, Europe, Africa and the Americas.


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The Jesuits were also the first to introduce Western science into such far-off places as China and India. In seventeenth-century China in particular, Jesuits introduced a substantial body of scientific knowledge and a vast array of mental tools for understanding the physical universe, including the Euclidean geometry that made planetary motion comprehensible. Jesuits made important contributions to the scientific knowledge and infrastructure of other less developed nations not only in Asia but also in Africa and Central and South America.

The idea that Jesuits introduced science to India and China is laughable when there has been and continues to be clear evidence that Vedic Hinduism or even post Vedic Hinduism much before the spread of Christianity, science and mathematics were well known.

Read the passage you quoted again. It says the Jesuits introduced Western science to the areas in question, not science simpliciter.

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Non-Christian cultures did not possess the same philosophical tools, and in fact were burdened by conceptual frameworks that hindered the development of science. Jaki extends this thesis to seven great cultures: Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya. In these cultures, Jaki explains, science suffered a "stillbirth." My book gives ample attention to Jakiís work.

This is even more ridiculuous. Thomas Woods provides no concrete proof of such history. Has this man read ANY eastern text? Has he read the Bhagavada Gita or the Yajur Veda(which contains science and engineering)?

It doesn't look like his claim was that science didn't exist in the areas in question. What it says is that science in those areas suffered a "stillbirth." Those are two very different claims.

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I wasn't able to post these links in the orignal post as counter proof to the fantastical claims made by Thomas Woods.

http://ancientscience.org/

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/recent_archeological_finds_confirming_Vedic_history.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/secret_teachings_of_the_vedas.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/how_the_universe_was_created.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/toward_world_peace.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/proof_of_vedic_culture%27s_global_existence.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/facing_death.htm

http://www.ranajitpal.com/rama.html

Connections between Ancient Sumeria and Ancient India

Thomas Woods is an actual historian with legitimate credentials. Who is Stephen Knapp and what are his credentials? His website looks crankish.

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Thomas Woods provides no proof; literary, archaeological, scientific or logical evidence to back his claims.

Did you read his book or are you pulling this claim out of your ass?


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Thomas Woods is an actual historian with legitimate credentials. Who is Stephen Knapp and what are his credentials? His website looks crankish.

I am not debating his credentials per se. I actually am a fan of his writings on economics and articles on lewrockwell.com. I am surprised that he is so clear and articulate when it comes to his economic ideas but this seems like a U-turn on logic. Anyone with a moderate knowledge of world history knows that the real history of Catholicism could not have been suppressed for so many centuries. The Catholic church is a massive powerful institution which operates like a giant multinational corporation. I agree that there has been a lot of propaganda against the church, Christianity and the traditionalist Western world and has been overrun by political correctness. But I disagree that the Catholic church could have made these contributions. I however do not deny that Catholic priests have studied science and math in the past(some even continue to study it today). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

His claims don't seem to have solid proof. There has been no evidence of any nation outside of the West of scientific and technological knowledge transfer by Jesuits.

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Did you read his book or are you pulling this claim out of your ass?

I think the burden of proof is on Thomas Woods and not on me.

In any case here is proof which I would like to provide and which is widely accepted even by the most conservative Western "scholars"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

http://www.hinduism.co.za/vedic.htm#Books%20on%20Vedic%20Maths

http://www.vedanet.com/

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Advanced_Concepts.htm

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/

Hospitality in Hindu culture - http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/wfdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=29&lid=62

Regarding Stephen Knapp's credibility; he is one of very few Westerners who has understood Hinduism. He is respected even by old Sanskrit and Vedic scholars. The same goes for David Frawley aka Vamadeva Shastri

Disclaimer : I am a libertarian who supports free markets(Austrian Economics) and also reads Lewrockwell.com, Mises.org and Antiwar.com.

The accredited course called Western Civilization gives Western Civilization a starting point in Mesopotamia with the Sumerian settlements. This is followed by the ancient Egyptians, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Romans, and then early Christianity appears on the scene. There are compelling indications that Christianity was quickly paganized, probably starting in its Roman origins, and then moreso in Northern Europe. A truthful statement is that Western Civilization is 40000 years of paganism, with about a 1500 year hiccup.

Thomas Woods provides no concrete proof of such history. Has this man read ANY eastern text? Has he read the Bhagavada Gita or the Yajur Veda(which contains science and engineering)?

He makes the classic mistake: he sees a correlation, and assumes that whatever event is closest to his experience is the cause.

India has ideas like ours? CLEARLY THEY GOT THEM FROM US! It couldn't be a common heritage somewhere or parallel evolution.

It's not unlike the modern people who look at impoverished people, note they have low IQs, and conclude that poverty causes low IQ.

Only the foolish Christians deny that Jesus Christ studied in India and Greece and wanted to bring that Pagan knowledge to Judaism -- to convert the materialists to transcendental idealism. True, he was a bit inexperienced to do that, so we got a Harry Potter versus Voldemort situation.

Most likely is that he bribed his way into the crucifixion, with the idea of escaping later, and did. The problem was that he had no idea how seriously people would take his "miracle."

The fawning Western attitudes toward Christianity are entirely like our modern American attitude toward black people: if an African-American takes an established idea, "jazzes" it up and tells it to us, we accept it because he's the Oppressed Suffering Outsider and therefore probably knows more than us self-hating wealthy brats.

If we can find a black dude to paraphrase Schopenhauer, Linkola and Evola, we'll be all set and kontinual will be World Emperor within a decade.

The fawning Western attitudes toward Christianity are entirely like our modern American attitude toward black people: if an African-American takes an established idea, "jazzes" it up and tells it to us, we accept it because he's the Oppressed Suffering Outsider and therefore probably knows more than us self-hating wealthy brats.

Except because the West is despising Christianity in favor of egalitarianism. The babbling  about the Dark Ages and the 10,000 thousands of millions of people dead in the inquisition are product of resentment towards the Church.

I recommend you to read the adventures of the church fathers, you will notice that they weren't as worried about the slaves as the modern humanist does and as the anti-christian thinks they were.



India has ideas like ours? CLEARLY THEY GOT THEM FROM US! It couldn't be a common heritage somewhere or parallel evolution.

It's not unlike the modern people who look at impoverished people, note they have low IQs, and conclude that poverty causes low IQ.


I wonder about the event that brought Indian people to an average IQ of 81, seriously. What happened to the wise Aryans that wrote the Vedas? My guess is that these aryans found that Christianity was more passionate and active than any other western pre-christian philosophy, thanks to the practicality of Jewish thinking (development) + the contemplative capabilities of transcendental idealism.

E

I wonder about the event that brought Indian people to an average IQ of 81, seriously.

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Out of the corruption of women proceeds the confusion of castes; out of the confusion of castes, the loss of memory; out of the loss of memory, the lack of understanding; and out of this, all evils.

óBhagavad-Gita

I always have considered Christianity, Islam and Judaism as cancer to humanity. There are some noteworthy aspects to the Semitic religions but nothing special that non-Semitic religions don't have.

Ideally Semitic cultures should be confined to the Middle East. They have no place in Asia, Europe, Africa and the Americas.

From the West came deviation, which spread to the whole world.

But know this: in this day and age, if you ridicule one Prophet, you ridicule all.

Catholics have been trying to spin this sort of stuff for centuries to deflect attention from the humiliation they suffered at the hands of science during the renaissance and enlightenment. They put all their stock on the belief that Copernicus and Galileo were wrong, and they lost. They have been on a "we're pro-science really" PR campaign ever since.

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I wonder about the event that brought Indian people to an average IQ of 81, seriously. What happened to the wise Aryans that wrote the Vedas? My guess is that these aryans found that Christianity was more passionate and active than any other western pre-christian philosophy, thanks to the practicality of Jewish thinking (development) + the contemplative capabilities of transcendental idealism.

There are many factors which lead to the decline of the Vedic civilization. I am not an expert to explain the decline in detail. But here are some key points :

1. Spiritual decline which lead to an erosion of tradition. Hindus became lazy and did not fully understand the Vedas and other important texts. They learnt the Vedas as something out of duty and not try to fully understand it. Subsequent generations devolved spiritually and which lead to social decline.

2. Social decline lead to blindly following traditional ideas(Shastras) and loss of importance of preserving tradition. This created opportunities for some to abuse power and exploit weaknesses of the masses. This led to heavy fragmentation into various social groups which lad to formation of sects, sub sects and misplaced allegiances.

3. Too much power and wealth also helped speed up decline in tradition which accelerated the exploitation by upper castes. Classes became more prominent. Class tension mixed with caste conflict added to ever increasing confusion and fear.

4. Fear and confusion made it easy for Brahmins and other upper castes to dominate lower castes through religion. Caste system now became a hierarchy which was very rigid and used as a tool for oppression.

5. Decline in spirituality, education, tradition, social structure and political state lead to extreme fragmentation of Bharat Varsha which weakened the nation as a whole made it ripe for spiritual revolution(Bhakthi movement, Early Middle Age philosophers who initiated a Hindu Renaissance). From the 11th to 15th century, India seemed to be headed in a better direction. But India was already too weak with poor political unity which made it just right for Muslim invaders to weaken India further through continuous attacks.

6. Sustained invasions from Muslims lead India to become weaker and they took over most of North India and parts of South India and "rebuilt"(rather destroyed) in their image. They created a bastardized culture mixed with remnants of Persian culture along with Islamic "fascism" with forced culture changes in the local regions. One of the effects was the creation of the language Hindi. Sanskrit's importance had declined significantly by then, which meant severing ties with the past. There were failed attempts to revive Hinduism and it would never be the same again.

7. Muslim kings or Mughals as they are known now also became drunk with power and wealth. They became arrogant and fought among themselves while continuing to wage war with Hindu kings(many of them who died valiantly in battle).

8. In the 14th century(?) when the English monarchy "awarded" it's explorers with patents on sea faring and exploration it gave them a chance to be a dominant power without any restrictions. They were free to do anything in their capacity to monopolize trade and territory. The shrewd tactics of appeasing and bribing the Mughals and some of the weak Hindu kings allowed them to monopolize on supply of raw materials, trade and buy territory.

9. By the 19th century the East India Company through appeasement, bribes and also waging wars in so called "defense of their property" conquered most of India.

10. Hindus had already severed most of their ties to the past. The British saw this as an opportunity to brainwash Hindus and completely remove any sort of pride in their culture, tradition. Thus started probably what can be termed as one of the greatest propaganda exercises to humiliate a populace.

11. By the late 1800's most Hindus believed that they had no culture of their own and it was all an invention of the outsiders. They thought themselves as savages who were taught civilization by outside tribes. Since by now most Hindus did not have direct connections to their past they saw Western materialism brought in by the British as the only way to survive and keep a nation. Hence, they became subservient to their colonial masters. On a side note, all these imperial conquests, propaganda and brainwashing was heavily funded by the Jacobins and Rothschilds (who also supported the French Revolution and other people revolutions once aristocracy was losing it's importance).

12. The East India Company was full of atheistic materialists using Christianity(the so called benevolent religion which also spread knowledge as per Mr. Woods) for their propaganda means.

To summarize the decline of Vedic civilization(I said before that all civilizations go through a rise, peak, stagnation and fall), continuous invasions by outsiders especially Muslims, Mughal rule, British colonialism brought India to it's knees. It's simply amazing how resilient India has been. I guess that it is one of the reasons we call it Mother India. The motherland has sheltered it's children(not just Hindus even other tribes who came here seeking refuge). I think the main reason why India is still standing is because of it's Hindu roots and a 8000 year history. No nation however powerful can destroy India completely. Outsiders may take our lives, our wealth, our land but NONE will every take our spirit and our Hindu past!

The key to a peaceful world is for all cultures to co-operate while preserving their own.

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hhrmi/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hsus/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples1/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hhce/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tlmr/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/mssmi/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/muslimsep/

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/siii/


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Did you read his book or are you pulling this claim out of your ass?

I think the burden of proof is on Thomas Woods and not on me.

You didn't answer my question. Did you read his book or did you only read that article that you linked to? Obviously he is not going to be rigorous about specifying what evidence he's appealing to or about citing his sources in an online article that's clearly intended as a quick and broad overview of what his book is about. I'm not arguing for his position and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just wondering why you're claiming that he presents no evidence. I would think he presents that in his book, but I haven't read it. It would be weird for a professional historian to write a whole book on a topic and not even try to substantiate their claims. How can you adequately assess the plausibility of his views if you're not even familiar with the case he builds for them?

Also, were the exact pieces of scientific knowledge that he claims were introduced by the West already present in Asia? I don't mean science in general, or math in general, but the specific insights that he mentioned. I take it that's why he said 'Western science' and not simply 'science.' I'm in no position to evaluate this. It seems to me though that simply pointing out that there was science and math there is not enough to undermine Woods' claims, or at least not all of them. I looked at one of those links you posted. I don't know what to make of those claims made on the page I looked at. I didn't see anything that undermined most of Woods' claims specifically, but admittedly I only skimmed. I can see though that at least one of his claims that you quoted is implausible if what I read on that page was true. I don't know. Maybe I am just confused. I know nothing about India or its ancient texts.

I'm just wondering why you're claiming that he presents no evidence. I would think he presents that in his book, but I haven't read it.

Me either. But I also don't really want to read his book. Western Civilization has birthed and rebuilt itself several times already. It's like Asphyx: just when you think God Cries is the final note in a sad drama, Death... The Brutal Way comes zooming around a corner and anally subjugates you.

The book The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics very thoroughly disproves essentially everything Westerners think about mathematical history. It demonstrates how many supposedly European advancements in mathematics were actually being used for thousands of years before any European used them. It also disproves the paradigm that European mathematics is uninfluenced by mathematics developed elsewhere. The book is very mathematically technical and is very careful to prove all of its claims and demonstrates the ingenuity of the major civilizations throughout history.
It would be weird for a professional historian to write a whole book on a topic and not even try to substantiate their claims.

This book proves just that. It also proves how historians purposely ignored the mathematical contributions of other societies and attribute these advancements to Europeans. Many Europeans credited with certain mathematical discoveries don't even credit themselves as the originators. The author talks extensively about how many Greek mathematicians name their Egyptian teachers and what the source of their knowledge was, yet historians ignore this altogether to rewrite a more Euro centric history.

One such example is the Pythagorean theorem. Essentially every major civilization throughout history has discovered it independently and in fact was being use for more than a thousand years before Pythagoras was born.

The author also makes sure to not demonize historians or have an accusatory tone. The book is not an easy read(if you actually look at the proofs) and is about 350 pages long. I read up to page 235 and I recommend it if you're interested in history or a math buff(it is mostly very interesting mathematical proofs for many theorems, all of which are done using mathematical systems different than our own).