Evil Black Metal is hogwash.

[Nimbostratus]

Probably you have already seen this. Funny and revealing.

Black metal kids sing about immortal war and they don't succeed a booze in their yard. They sing about evilness in their parents basement. Wanna see evil? This is an evil dude and he surely listened to tex-mex and norteño music and none black metal.

But oh, it was about metaphoric, metaphysical evil? Immaturity, metal needs to go forward from that. When you grow up, and you preserve your love for black metal, you start to notice that the very few metal music which is worthy is in the measure it resembles goodness, honor and love, things that you actually can do in real life and that are meritorious.  

More things are to come from that way.

[nous]

I agree.

As long as a leading figure in black metal says things like, "Christianity is the root of all modern problems", I do not expect any change.

By following that path, black metal will always be only a prolongination of Western mainstream thinking and behaviour. It wants to be extreme, but it doesn't realize that being extreme in itself does not necessarily mean being "radical" (as in seeing the problem at its root); individualism is a negative extreme.

And maybe we just have to accept that black metal will never change in this regard, and that classical is just the more adequate musical expression of our worldview.

[we hope you die]

Evil, like many concepts and musical techniques is a means to an end. Much like gore and violence in death metal. I think if you take many decent black metal bands on their own the ideology may seem incomplete, but if you take the genre as a whole the ideology goes far beyond a banal expression of evil.

[nothingnowhere]

Has everyone forgotten what this is all about?

[Nimbostratus]

...if you take the genre as a whole the ideology goes far beyond a banal expression of evil.

Yes, it seems to be that way. However,  bands can be interpreted as a collectivity in a more organized and coherent way than what they would be seen as individuals (punk, even reggae music could be, or hip hop) There are some papers that do that.

Of course, to my mind, black metal has much more potentiality to become something truly creative, good and noble than those already mentioned genres. This is what is all about.

I like to see a lot of the perceptions held towards black metal or heavy metal in ANUS, not only as descriptive, but also potentially as normative.

I agree.

As long as a leading figure in black metal says things like, "Christianity is the root of all modern problems", I do not expect any change.

By following that path, black metal will always be only a prolongination of Western mainstream thinking and behaviour. It wants to be extreme, but it doesn't realize that being extreme in itself does not necessarily mean being "radical" (as in seeing the problem at its root); individualism is a negative extreme.

And maybe we just have to accept that black metal will never change in this regard, and that classical is just the more adequate musical expression of our worldview.

Yeah, fuck evilness, let's start making music about what's good. That means Christians doing black metal to embrace Brahma and not only trying to preach/annoy their satanic peers.

[Devamitra]

It's one thing to remind people of heroic values, creative challenge and the beauty of nature; another to get into the language and metaphysics of Judeo-Christianity, which as Nietzsche already taught us, is a cultural dead end at this point.

The idea of "God" is hardly going to awaken the sublime in man at this point, as you can easily see comparing late 20th century Christian musicians' work to ones not aligned particularly religiously. The fact that there are positive sides to the teachings of Christianity was acknowledged even by death metal kids in old zines, so the myth about death and black metal being primarily anti-Christian is false.

Both black metal and death metal are occult, transcendentalistic and yes, also rooted in rebellious aesthetics so trying to make them organized/decent/socially acceptable/religious is a case of square peg and round hole.

I'd say you people are making things too complicated and compromising too much. If you want to be a good Christian, forget about this black metal bullshit. Do you really need it for anything or is it youthful nostalgy that makes you listen to it?

[Nimbostratus]

It's one thing to remind people of heroic values, creative challenge and the beauty of nature; another to get into the language and metaphysics of Judeo-Christianity, which as Nietzsche already taught us, is a cultural dead end at this point.

Literacy of judeo-christian symbols is "white metal" and it sucks. We're not discussing that, on the contrary:

Christians, there's a path to traditional values in black metal, if you find the perennial sophia, there's a spiritual path of expression in black metal that surpasses dogma.

The idea of "God" is hardly going to awaken the sublime in man at this point, as you can easily see comparing late 20th century Christian musicians' work to ones not aligned particularly religiously.

Yep, "modern" Christianity sucks, as does modern Buddhism, modern paganism, and their respective cultural manifestations.

Both black metal and death metal are occult, transcendentalistic and yes, also rooted in rebellious aesthetics so trying to make them organized/decent/socially acceptable/religious is a case of square peg and round hole.

Let's not pretend that there's no contradiction. Both black metal and death metal have transcendentalist tendencies, but can you avoid several references to individualism and liberalism in both genres? I accept that contradiction, not as aesthetics, but as a contradiction. What's the problem facing that and trying to solve it in the future.

I'd say you people are making things too complicated and compromising too much. If you want to be a good Christian, forget about this black metal bullshit. Do you really need it for anything or is it youthful nostalgy that makes you listen to it?

If I relied on black metal to be a good Christian, I'd be truly deluded. But I'd like to see viceversa: Good transcendentalist Christians doing good black metal.

Or simpler, good people, Christian or not, expressing such goodness in metal music.

Nostalgia would be to accept black metal as it was a norm of how it should be, declaring the death of metal music.

[we hope you die]

I think we can just take the best ideas that black metal had to offer and develop them, rather than focusing on the immature acts of individual musicians. We can ignore the childish, reactionary elements to it enjoy the truly profound music that black metal was. And at the same time accept that black metal is incredibly easy to paraody.

[nous]

I think we can just take the best ideas that black metal had to offer and develop them, rather than focusing on the immature acts of individual musicians. We can ignore the childish, reactionary elements to it enjoy the truly profound music that black metal was. And at the same time accept that black metal is incredibly easy to paraody.

I like this because there is a glimmer of hope in it. But what are the best ideas in black metal?

One central idea could be "anger". Maybe we can think of black metal like of Jesus (John 2:13-16) or Martin Luther: their anger was just, but it was anger-in-context and not anger for anger's sake (at least I always hope so in the case of Luther).

Black metal needs this as a principle, but it doesn't need to be a Christian principle. It should be a universal principle: if you want to know something important, and someone tells you to stop looking, you have the right to be angry. What you don't have is the right to be angry at the knowledge itself, because then you fall for the sophist's deception.

Religion is lifeless and profane without doubt without questions which express doubt, so we should be angry at those who want to brush such questions under the carpet and thereby destroy the Glory of God. At the same time, we must look for solutions and remember the goal, which was knowledge, and not anger.

"Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?" (Luke 2:49)

Another central idea seems to be the importance of Nature (I like to call it the Sacredness of Nature): black metal is often angry at modern society for treating Nature like an "object for use". Three times Yes!

There exists in black metal the notion that evil should not be despised, but accepted or even desired: which is half true and half false. True because we indeed must accept that there is and always will be evil; wrong because this doesn't mean that we should not turn away from it! Accept evil, despise evil, and even be angry at those who ignore evil or see it in good things: this is good acceptance and good anger, proper for black metal. But in the end, what is more important is not the anger, which is only a vehicle for the vision. First anger, then the vision: this was the recipe for many Burzum compositions.

One also encounters the opinion that evil didn't exist, which is plainly wrong in the sphere of Creation and human life. Creation is the meeting of Being and nothingness, or Good and evil, and it is very real for human life because we participate in Creation.

[nous]

Summary:

(1) anger-in-context
(2) looking at the signs of Nature, humility
(3) vision, or yearning for vision

All of this doesn't really require orthodox Christian doctrines, but it doesn't contradict them either; thus, Christianity is not black metal's victim.

[indjaseemun]

I had to bring this thread back. While posting on Ildjarn's topic, I tought about the evil in black metal. I agree that most of it was theatrical, I don't believe vikernes is evil, nor ishann, and a lot of others. But I think a guy like ildjarn is really evil, as I said on the other topic, he would probably enjoy killing and torturing people (if he actually hans't done it yet), Bard Eithun killed a guy for nothing, and I read numerous interviews in wich black metal musicians say they admire things that have to do with human suffering, and people who promoted it, lilke Elizabeth Bathory (who has a song dedicated to her by Tormentor, and the band Bathory.) Isn't it "evil" to embrace a woman who's past time was torturing young women with cruelty (I understand people can make songs about scary stuff without supporting it, but the song from tormentor shows that he likes her).

Euronymous also seemed like a pretty psychopatic person and spoke in favor of the death of innocents.

Was there real evil in black metal, like wanting to killl or torture people for no reason?

Is there this feeling on any one of you?

Not in me

[Conservationist]

Evil in metal, to me, means realism over morality.

"War is bad," says the hippie.

"War is necessary," says the realist, "Unless you assume that everyone is reasonable."

Natural selection, the triumph of the smarter -- what the hippie hates -- involves war. Natural selection gets reversed when the Crowd appears.

So when bands like Slayer talk about Evil, it's usually in the sense of War Pigs:

Now in darkness world stops turning,
ashes where the bodies burning.
No more War Pigs have the power,
Hand of God has struck the hour.
Day of judgement, God is calling,
on their knees the war pigs crawling.
Begging mercies for their sins,
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.

While humans indulge themselves in a fantasy world of Christ, liberalism, kumbaya, peace, love, etc., reality marches on, and if we ignore that reality, it rules over us. We believe the fantasy on the screen; behind the screen, shadowy deals occur.

Evil in this sense is a metaphor for reality outside of social thinking.

However, in metal it's often overdone. Where Slayer used it in a mythological sense, and early black metal explored the dimensions of postmorality, most of these idiots are just beating the Satan drum because they have no actual ideals:

But I think a guy like ildjarn is really evil, as I said on the other topic, he would probably enjoy killing and torturing people (if he actually hans't done it yet), Bard Eithun killed a guy for nothing, and I read numerous interviews in wich black metal musicians say they admire things that have to do with human suffering, and people who promoted it, lilke Elizabeth Bathory (who has a song dedicated to her by Tormentor, and the band Bathory.)

I never got the fascination with Elizabeth Bathory. I think Venom liked the idea because it was extreme, but the point was that it did not work -- she was a lonely old woman who tried to stave off death (the ultimate Evil) and could not, eventually.

Bart Eithun killed a homosexual. In addition to being homosexual, the guy was useless. Who cares? He wanted the experience of killing. I think it's a good idea for smart people to experience killing of the useless.

Enjoy torturing someone? You should enjoy everything you do, which doesn't mean "pick only what you enjoy" but "find the divinity in everything." If you're going to have to be cruel, you need to live the part.

If you're going to beat the crap out of someone, you need to put your whole spirit into it. The truly evil person will have no emotional response, but will treat it simply like a mechanical task. And if you search your soul, that scares you more than a sadist.

Sadists are interesting because they are addicted to cruelty. An evil person would have none of this. They would torture for a goal, and not be troubled by the method. A sadist is just an alcoholic of pain.

[JewishPhysics]

Enjoy torturing someone? You should enjoy everything you do, which doesn't mean "pick only what you enjoy" but "find the divinity in everything." If you're going to have to be cruel, you need to live the part.

If you're going to beat the crap out of someone, you need to put your whole spirit into it. The truly evil person will have no emotional response, but will treat it simply like a mechanical task. And if you search your soul, that scares you more than a sadist.

I think you have it backwards.  One should never enjoy cruelty, but only do it out of necessity.  Anyone who enjoys cruelty is sick.  Necessary cruelty should be done in a mechanical fashion, all while retaining the understanding of it repulsiveness.  Allowing or encouraging the enjoyment of cruelty can fuel the enactment of UNnecessary cruelty, which is bad.

[Cargést]

I think the use of the term "enjoyment" is the sole fault - the qualifier, "find the divinity in everything", is far more apt, and works quite well with the application of cruelty.

[Vuvuzelas Belong In Metal]

Enjoy torturing someone? You should enjoy everything you do, which doesn't mean "pick only what you enjoy" but "find the divinity in everything." If you're going to have to be cruel, you need to live the part.

If you're going to beat the crap out of someone, you need to put your whole spirit into it. The truly evil person will have no emotional response, but will treat it simply like a mechanical task. And if you search your soul, that scares you more than a sadist.

I think you have it backwards.  One should never enjoy cruelty, but only do it out of necessity.  Anyone who enjoys cruelty is sick.  Necessary cruelty should be done in a mechanical fashion, all while retaining the understanding of it repulsiveness.  Allowing or encouraging the enjoyment of cruelty can fuel the enactment of UNnecessary cruelty, which is bad.

Some people simply just deserve cruelty: the best is when it completely humiliates and degrades a worthless person, or one filled with excessive hubris. If you saw a Goldman Sachs investment banker, or a BP executive, getting brutally anally raped while their family watches, wouldn't you have a warm, fuzzy feeling inside of you at the perfect justice of it?  I felt fantastic after hearing about Bernie Madoff's fun adventures in prison!

Regarding the OP, the idiot "Joe" character is why I don't listen to most black metal at all. You can tell he's a little bitch because his evil-badassness can't even be up front with the prank caller. Clearly a bunch of wannabe toughguy black metal kids who think they be evil pho' hatin da niggas.  But when confronted by a "real evil motherfucker" this Joe kid is just trying to belch out excuses in his asperger-tinged voice.

I'm turned off by most black metal: too much silly theatrics, too much dick-waving, and the trying too hard gig.  How many of these black metal bands sing about darkness but are working for a bachelors in business administration?  At least the original black metal bands were original and made some really good music, but they still engaged in their silly little drama, the pointless church burnings (heartfelt idea, however accomplishing nothing), and that really, really retarded corpse makeup.  The whole "low production is kvlt" thing also was mostly an excuse to be as cheap as possible.  Did any albums actually benefit from having a lower-quality production?

Black metal should've evolved back in the latter half of the 90s, instead it's just a running joke and everybody forgot the punchline.  Look at the variation within death metal, and then look at black metal: it's much more homogeneous.

Burzum's lyrics were always the best of the "old school" (post Hellhammer/Celtic Frost and Bathory) black metallers, except for the ones he contributed to Darkthrone (a horribly overrated band), since he didn't sing about satan like everybody else did at the time.  Samael's Ceremony of Opposites lyrics (as an example), while being more of the same, worked perfectly with the music so that it wasn't silly as usual.

Maybe I'm not totally accurate with some of my above statements, but when I listen to most black metal, I'm thinking of some kid wearing grease paint, sporting secondhand BDSM gear he bought used from an estate sale, going on stage and shouting about darkness/cold weather/black people/graves/Jesus/Satan/Vikings (even though he is probably of English descent) then taking the bus home, finding his correct trailer while trying to see straight after all the coconut rum he drank got to him, and then plopping down in front of the TV to watch Cartoon Network before going to bed and then to work at the office.  So I just really can't take this genre very seriously at all.

Ildjarn I don't take seriously at all. He's like the guy who is noodling away on a saxophone while you're trying to enjoy your nice cajun food at the nice restaurant down the street.  His "songs" have no meaning to them whatsoever, no depth, no real intent and I believe all he does is put out short, atmospheric songs in an improv manner like he's making chicken nuggets at McDonalds.  To be fair, its been years since I've listened to him at all, but I remember listening to him for the first time and being utterly confused at all the hype behind him. Maybe he really is the most evil one around -- conning a bunch of people into thinking he really has anything important to say?