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An example of how challenging a person's musical taste can ruin a conversation

OP is attempting to score points with the ANUS crew by restating that which is already known (and namedropping Beethoven).  I wouldn't be surprised if he were almost as shallow as the woman with whom he was conversing.

I would suggest next time that instead of debating such a person, you do this one:

I really love opera. It's a vivid way of telling a story with music.

Then let her figure out how to respond to that. If she keeps dissing opera, you can always gain the moral high hand by ignoring the negativity. Especially if a person is young, their tastes change, and if they do not rise toward more complex music, they are probably unable to comprehend it.

Absolutely. Why create enemies where there were none before? At least she says that she appreciates the music. For me, I do not think loving classical and opera is mandatory, as long as study and appreciation for the craft and the art form are present. I don't really like opera, actually. I would never claim it to be bad music, as it clearly is not.

Wow, what a fucking dweeb the OP is.

I hate this guy's guts so much, I had to come out of lurking to say it.

OP is attempting to score points with the ANUS crew by restating that which is already known (and namedropping Beethoven).  I wouldn't be surprised if he were almost as shallow as the woman with whom he was conversing.

Cut the kid some slack.  A lot of us were pretentious twats at some point.  He might come around if we don't scare him off too soon.

To OP, think about what Conversationist has said.  You'll accomplish a lot more by asserting your own ideas than by denigrating anothers.

I can't be sure by reading the text, but she may have been saying "Beethoven sucks" as a point of saying that taste is subjective and arbitrary. If taste is totally subjective then her saying classical music is boring is no less valid then you saying that popular music is dim-witted.

Possibly. I found myself siding with her, reading that text. Not that I disagreed with you, but she understood the social context of music, and why circumstances drive people listen to it. American Idol might not be a good thing, but people watch it because they're led to it by the events of their lives and it serves a purpose for a time being, just like metal. Opera might have done that centuries ago, not so much now. It's nothing to do with quality and stupid people. Music serves people, not the converse, and when the said "opera sucks" she meant it serves a purpose no longer in this modern era, for most people. In the end, you were both talking about different things and, females having a more instinctive depth of context, this led to disagreement.

Cut the kid some slack.  A lot of us were pretentious twats at some point.  He might come around if we don't scare him off too soon.
Trial by fire. Cutting people slack invites the weak :)

I am so surprised by some of the responses to this guy that i have come out of my long-time lurking to offer some defense.  The fact that this guy is being attacked for doing what lovers of high-culture should do (and that is point out to people how shabby and asinine "pop" culture music is and make them realize they are cluttering their minds with trash and wasting their money and that their opinions are worthless if they have no standards of comparison) is baffling to me.  Most people won't do this because they don't want to seem "mean" or "critical" or lose a potential friend or sex partner (a lot of fun friends that shallow would be anyway!).  A website ostensibly committed to defending quality music and taste attacking this guy for defending quality music is downright bizarre! 

His point couldn't be clearer when he said how this is an example of education's failure.  And he is absolutely right.  She is minoring in music in an American University and she is calling a Pop singer "talented", "opera sucks cock", and she hates Beethoven!  Horrors! The exact thing that education should be about (the training of taste, the training of the mind to make value judgements about what is genuine art worthy of praise and what is trash) is totally absent with this girl.  How embarrassing for her, and she probably doesn't even realize it.  If education were doing its job it would save us from the enslavement to popular culture and conformity.  It should show us the difference between real talent and mere fame. 

The fact that so many college students and graduates listen to this crap "music", watch this crap on TV, and scorn true masters and masterpieces is the biggest indictment of the educational system I know! He got blocked for challenging her shit tastes and not being able to defend them (if she could defend them why would she block him? Yeah, this says A LOT more about her than him and a lot bad. OP keep challenging people's shallow tastes, someone has to do it!

Quote from an article you should read: "The prevailing attitude is that you are entitled to your tastes, but not entitled to inflict them on me.  Most American students come to college with this attitude, and are appalled to discover that there are people who do not merely disagree with their tastes in music, art, literature (not to speak of clothes, language use, and social relations) but actually LOOK DOWN on their tastes, as inferior to some putative standard.  This is very hard to take, and is one cause of the widespread endorsement of cultural relativism in its many forms -- since cultural relativism simply lifts aesthetic experience out of the world of judgment altogether, and therefore neutralizes good taste as a value."  http://spectator.org/archives/2007/08/28/art-beauty-and-judgment

I am so surprised by some of the responses to this guy that i have come out of my long-time lurking to offer some defense.  The fact that this guy is being attacked for doing what lovers of high-culture should do (and that is point out to people how shabby and asinine "pop" culture music is and make them realize they are cluttering their minds with trash and wasting their money and that their opinions are worthless if they have no standards of comparison) is baffling to me.  Most people won't do this because they don't want to seem "mean" or "critical" or lose a potential friend or sex partner (a lot of fun friends that shallow would be anyway!).  A website ostensibly committed to defending quality music and taste attacking this guy for defending quality music is downright bizarre!  

His point couldn't be clearer when he said how this is an example of education's failure.  And he is absolutely right.  She is minoring in music in an American University and she is calling a Pop singer "talented", "opera sucks cock", and she hates Beethoven!  Horrors! The exact thing that education should be about (the training of taste, the training of the mind to make value judgements about what is genuine art worthy of praise and what is trash) is totally absent with this girl.  How embarrassing for her, and she probably doesn't even realize it.  If education were doing its job it would save us from the enslavement to popular culture and conformity.  It should show us the difference between real talent and mere fame.  

The fact that so many college students and graduates listen to this crap "music", watch this crap on TV, and scorn true masters and masterpieces is the biggest indictment of the educational system I know! He got blocked for challenging her shit tastes and not being able to defend them (if she could defend them why would she block him? Yeah, this says A LOT more about her than him and a lot bad. OP keep challenging people's shallow tastes, someone has to do it!

Quote from an article you should read: "The prevailing attitude is that you are entitled to your tastes, but not entitled to inflict them on me.  Most American students come to college with this attitude, and are appalled to discover that there are people who do not merely disagree with their tastes in music, art, literature (not to speak of clothes, language use, and social relations) but actually LOOK DOWN on their tastes, as inferior to some putative standard.  This is very hard to take, and is one cause of the widespread endorsement of cultural relativism in its many forms -- since cultural relativism simply lifts aesthetic experience out of the world of judgment altogether, and therefore neutralizes good taste as a value."  http://spectator.org/archives/2007/08/28/art-beauty-and-judgment

I agree with all of the above as goals; as methods, however, I have to disagree with them.

Here's why:

  • People grow up slowly and espouse 99 stupid opinions before 1 good one;
  • People are often posing;
  • You catch more flies with honey than vinegar;
  • If you are seen as a sympathetic speaker, you prolong the dialogue.


I am fully aware of how stupid this world is, and the opinion that "opera sucks" is right in line with that stupidity. However, we must (a) think politically and (b) not be assholes. All that matters is achieving the end, which is re-directing as many people possible to real culture.

Quote
Conversation 1

Person 1: Incantation really eats a dick. How you can prefer that to the stylized, epic, symphonic sounds of 0peth is beyond me. Really, early Incantation sucks compared to 0peth.
Person 2: Are you a fucking moron? The first Incantation album is a million times more complex, personalitied and profound that anything 0peth ever did. Did you blow Steve Jobs and get AIDS?

Quote
Conversation 2

Person 1: Incantation really eats a dick. How you can prefer that to the stylized, epic, symphonic sounds of 0peth is beyond me. Really, early Incantation sucks compared to 0peth.
Person 2: It took me a long time to get into the first album Incantation, but I've come to really love it. What's your favorite 0peth album?

Has the truth changed between these conversations? Only the method.

Method cannot substitute for end goals, however... if you have 24 hours to take a breeding population of humans to Mars before earth is destroyed, you take the ones who ALREADY know how brilliant the first Incantation album is. But until then...

Conservationist has the right idea here. Instead of attacking the person attacking your tastes, simply ask them to give reasons why. Make them expose the fact that they may not have any real reason for hating the music without seeming like an asshole. Remember, don't attack just ask for clarification.

Conservationist has the right idea here. Instead of attacking the person attacking your tastes, simply ask them to give reasons why. Make them expose the fact that they may not have any real reason for hating the music without seeming like an asshole. Remember, don't attack just ask for clarification.

I agree that it is better to be calm and have a rational conversation about this, but it is almost impossible with these types of people.  If you politely asked her what she doesn't like about opera or Beethoven, I can almost bet she would say "It's boring" or "it's gay/ fags listen to that" or "It's what old people like".  If you then asked her why it's boring you would get another vague answer such as "idk, it's stupid" or "It's really long". So as you can see these conversations are so pointless I almost have to agree with the first guy that said it would have been best if this guy ended the conversation the minute she said she loves American Idol to save your blood pressure from going up.  These woman are not going to be persuaded no matter how nicely or rationally you go about doing it because it won't be seen as popular and if they aren't popular they would probably rather die.

Most people won't do this because they don't want to seem "mean" or "critical" or lose a potential friend or sex partner...
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that most people recognize the simple fact that telling people they're too retarded to know the difference between "good" and "bad"(which is not too far off from saying "you don't know which way is up") not only fails to convince them of the truth you are conveying - it makes them actively oppose it, since you have just declared your position as an enemy. This isn't rocket science.

It doesn't matter HOW true your words are, if they are given in such a way as to alienate the audience, they are for naught. Sad, maybe, but this is the way of things. Spouting off in the manner which the OP did shows a desire for a world different from the one he occupies, but no desire to turn the current world into the world he desires. Which can only mean he wants it given to him on a plate, since he's not willing to adapt to the current world, and thereby actually change it. One person lives in shallowness, the other in fantasy. They are not so different.

A website ostensibly committed to defending quality music and taste attacking this guy for defending quality music is downright bizarre!
A website commited to being EFFECTIVE.

I agree that it is better to be calm and have a rational conversation about this, but it is almost impossible with these types of people.  If you politely asked her what she doesn't like about opera or Beethoven, I can almost bet she would say "It's boring" or "it's gay/ fags listen to that" or "It's what old people like".  If you then asked her why it's boring you would get another vague answer such as "idk, it's stupid" or "It's really long".
The site's also dedicated to trolling as a way of divulging information.

I try to be quiet about my tastes, and I don't bash my people for listening crowd music. I'd only open my mouth if someone else asks me why I listen to metal (the crowd:metalhead ratio in this city has to be 9000:1). I wish I could get that question more often.

On an unrelated note, can someone explain to me the 'Dismember' status under some of the usernames?

In addition to stating clearly and precisely what you like and why you like it, there are other options:
Don't throw pearls before swine.
Don't argue with others about tastes. You can't change them.

Youthful expectations are often adequate, but many human beings fall short of them. If you keep them for yourself for now, they will live; maybe evole, maybe die: so that later you don't have to regret anything. Kudos to the OP for realizing, however, that truth is nobler than social status.

In addition to stating clearly and precisely what you like and why you like it, there are other options:
Don't throw pearls before swine.
Don't argue with others about tastes. You can't change them.

Youthful expectations are often adequate, but many human beings fall short of them. If you keep them for yourself for now, they will live; maybe evole, maybe die: so that later you don't have to regret anything. Kudos to the OP for realizing, however, that truth is nobler than social status.

We all have different castes of the soul. Some rise above; others are content with less. If someone wants a song to hum while they go through life, that's enough -- but they have overstepped their line when criticizing opera.

So how to respond? A hybrid of how the original poster acted and a manipulative, psychologically-savvy technique: defuse passive aggression by talking about the positive in opera, then asking them about their own beliefs.

This makes them consider an option, and at the same time, doubt themselves. At the very least OP will have to listen to less stupidity from this person (I assume he's using her for anal sex or unskilled labor).

In addition to stating clearly and precisely what you like and why you like it, there are other options:
Don't throw pearls before swine.
Don't argue with others about tastes. You can't change them.

Youthful expectations are often adequate, but many human beings fall short of them. If you keep them for yourself for now, they will live; maybe evole, maybe die: so that later you don't have to regret anything. Kudos to the OP for realizing, however, that truth is nobler than social status.

We all have different castes of the soul. Some rise above; others are content with less. If someone wants a song to hum while they go through life, that's enough -- but they have overstepped their line when criticizing opera.

So how to respond? A hybrid of how the original poster acted and a manipulative, psychologically-savvy technique: defuse passive aggression by talking about the positive in opera, then asking them about their own beliefs.

This makes them consider an option, and at the same time, doubt themselves.
At the very least OP will have to listen to less stupidity from this person (I assume he's using her for anal sex or unskilled labor).
What, for example, would one say? I know that I have a natural tendency to react like OP, which is why I ask.

What, for example, would one say? I know that I have a natural tendency to react like OP, which is why I ask.


Well, take a look at Conservationist's previous post involving 0peth and Incantation.

It can be very, very difficult to maintain your cool and not call the other person a small minded moron, but in the end if you remain reserved and engaging in conversation the other person will likely calm down too.