The state of being on the fence

[scourge]

It seems like most people want metal to be a social tool, or to be used for entertainment purposes. They love to give their opinions on things, but are horrified at the thought of actually having to inwardly reflect, or consider things from a perspective of pure ideas and structure, rather than simply how things appear to the senses.

I'll go out on a limb again and assert that the world today is swamped in born socializers who are shallow souls, or as others have said, thin intelligences.

They love to give their opinions on things, but are horrified at the thought of actually having to inwardly reflect, or consider things from a perspective of pure ideas and structure, rather than simply how things appear to the senses. The prominence of Judging is probably quite confronting for many, who see it as "close-mindedness", apparently even perceiving the strong focus on goals as being sheepish (oh, teh irony).

The born socializer sees ego confrontation which is an illusion of their own making rather than a detached assessment which is the truth because compared to an INT(x) judge, they are in many ways more monkey than man as far as I am concerned.

I think this site also has a significant F aspect, tending to focus more on art and social science than on the cold rationality of science and math (of course, certain members are clearly much more T). Very Nietzschean in all aspects.

There are astute intellects in both the irrational and rational spectrums with dedicated extremists in each camp (e.g. fundamentalists, Dawkins). There are also those who are comfortable with both (e.g. see the split between religion and science is over thread elsewhere in Chasm).

[Veritas]

The born socializer sees ego confrontation which is an illusion of their own making rather than a detached assessment which is the truth because compared to an INT(x) judge, they are in many ways more monkey than man as far as I am concerned.

However the introvert must be careful not to devolve into solipsism - either by not bothering to interact with the outside world, or not bothering to consider other viewpoints.

I think this site also has a significant F aspect, tending to focus more on art and social science than on the cold rationality of science and math (of course, certain members are clearly much more T). Very Nietzschean in all aspects.

There are astute intellects in both the irrational and rational spectrums with dedicated extremists in each camp (e.g. fundamentalists, Dawkins). There are also those who are comfortable with both (e.g. see the split between religion and science is over thread elsewhere in Chasm).

My favourite approach is the one in between (but transcendent of both), which is neither bound to over-rational, literal system-fitting, nor under-rational, let's-talk-about-our-feelings. Instead, underlying structures are expounded into metaphor, with the goal being to find the best way to view the world and act within it.

[Everdarkgreen]

Would an ANUSite perhaps corner me into somehow admitting that I was listening for social status and covering it up with what I genuinely believed was the truth?

You were obviously listening to them for social status, as evidenced by your desperate cries for approval among the "elite" for your newfound kvlt taste. The only thing you ever genuinely liked was probably Nickelback's "How You Remind Me" when you were 12. Your posts can be basically translated to "I'm such a poor lost lonely sheepie, please tell me what exactly to believe in".

In retrospect, I can say fairly accurately that there was definitely some element of appeal for social status. But it wasn't the most important aspect and I feel came entirely secondary to the actual sonic experience. The trick was allowing myself to succumb to an indiscriminate aesthetic philosophy where I grew myself more and more accustomed to mediocre music and would in turn take a liberal approach and defend all art for the sentiment behind it. Now I see that even though I thought I had a superior attention span to most (as evidenced personally by being able to pay attention to whole Dream Theater albums at a time), it was entirely the opposite. I was so easily bored by music that I required some sort of change every 10-15 seconds. I would listen to a lot of 'true' metal and be off put initially because I never allowed myself to hear the literal progression and thus would never allow myself to even hear the transition to the next chapter of the narrative.

As for approval among the "elite", well I won't deny that there is a certain kinship that I feel to people who think similarly to how I do. Feels good to challenge myself here and the difference is that I'm always on my toes and revising all sorts of thoughts as I read new perspectives from the users here. With that sort of challenge to my already established line of thought, I feel a stronger kinship to the ANUS boards than I have ever felt at UG even though I have posted there infinitely more. Just makes more sense here since people like to uncover the shit from under the rug instead of letting it sit there like so many do.

I can't say I'm on the fence anymore, but as for certain things like social relations (especially with the opposite sex) and political issues (which I feel entirely overwhelmed and uneducated about), I am still revising. Alas, I feel confident that the general philosophy that most have a consensus here about is what is right, and more so what's intuitively right to me.

[scourge]

As for approval among the "elite", well I won't deny that there is a certain kinship that I feel to people who think similarly to how I do

There are differences between approval seeking as occurs between a dog and its lifelong master and kinship where mutual support and group strengthening take place. This probably dovetails with the slave morality and master morality outlook that different people adopt.

[Athanasius contra mundum]

As for approval among the "elite", well I won't deny that there is a certain kinship that I feel to people who think similarly to how I do

There are differences between approval seeking as occurs between a dog and its lifelong master and kinship where mutual support and group strengthening take place. This probably dovetails with the slave morality and master morality outlook that different people adopt.

At some point the master will find stagnation in self-mastery and seek out more virile experiences. This can be done by finding like-minded individuals and constructing a community based upon consensual values, and it can also lead to the MOST virile experience: those consensual values becoming time-honored and sacred traditions that are the basis of an entire nation's culture. This is essentially different than the slave seeking out an already established society for the sake of "I work for you, you protect me." That is not very noble of them, and the master is a noble in the truest of senses.

[Wolfgang]

Odd how we Hessians so revile the follower, the dog, while praising the Master, but yet from a strict historical sense, the follower has allowed for the greatest human triumphs at the direction of the Master.  Therefore rendering the follower just as important. The Pyramids don't get built in an Egypt full of intellectuals.

Not every solder can be a general. Society needs "bullet catchers" too.

[scourge]

True enough. Our appropriate roles are all sacred and false elitism undermines this idea. But, the boot licking method of social climbing is always contemptible.

[Veritas]

Odd how we Hessians so revile the follower, the dog, while praising the Master, but yet from a strict historical sense, the follower has allowed for the greatest human triumphs at the direction of the Master.  Therefore rendering the follower just as important. The Pyramids don't get built in an Egypt full of intellectuals.

Not every solder can be a general. Society needs "bullet catchers" too.

I remember a long debate about this in a "So, do we kill the under 120s or not?" thread a while back. Do the masters really need the followers, or could a purely intellectual society work? There certainly needs to be a balance between thinking and doing, but do we really need to preserve low mental ability? Is there any necessary reason why an army of generals won't work? I'd posit that they only seem necessary because they act within a system which had to accommodate for them.

What I see constantly brought up on this forum, is a need for self-discipline, of respecting those who are more wise than you, but giving a critical analysis of what they say so you too may become wise, and a need to direct one's own living to a greater whole. The Master will help build The Pyramids, because this is a worship of the majestic power which can exist in the world separately from individuals. We respect proper leadership (whether or not we are the leaders) and a drive towards conflict because this is the archetype from which Greatness arises.

Equality is good,
Equality is cool.
So eliminate the weak,
And let the Übermensch rule!

[Wolfgang]

I think civilization may have caused the evolution of an intellectual cast system. Maybe we should try to work within the confines of our nature as opposed to constantly trying to over power it. Isn't the obsession with denying human nature the same mistake society makes?

[Veritas]

Homer certainly shows how you can be an individual of the highest quality, without needing to become "intellectual".

Let's go back (?) to that, but let's knock off all those pesky suitors beforehand. I guess slaves can stay.

[indjaseemun]

Would an ANUSite perhaps corner me into somehow admitting that I was listening for social status and covering it up with what I genuinely believed was the truth?

You were obviously listening to them for social status, as evidenced by your desperate cries for approval among the "elite" for your newfound kvlt taste. The only thing you ever genuinely liked was probably Nickelback's "How You Remind Me" when you were 12. Your posts can be basically translated to "I'm such a poor lost lonely sheepie, please tell me what exactly to believe in".

In retrospect, I can say fairly accurately that there was definitely some element of appeal for social status. But it wasn't the most important aspect and I feel came entirely secondary to the actual sonic experience. The trick was allowing myself to succumb to an indiscriminate aesthetic philosophy where I grew myself more and more accustomed to mediocre music and would in turn take a liberal approach and defend all art for the sentiment behind it. Now I see that even though I thought I had a superior attention span to most (as evidenced personally by being able to pay attention to whole Dream Theater albums at a time), it was entirely the opposite. I was so easily bored by music that I required some sort of change every 10-15 seconds. I would listen to a lot of 'true' metal and be off put initially because I never allowed myself to hear the literal progression and thus would never allow myself to even hear the transition to the next chapter of the narrative.

As for approval among the "elite", well I won't deny that there is a certain kinship that I feel to people who think similarly to how I do. Feels good to challenge myself here and the difference is that I'm always on my toes and revising all sorts of thoughts as I read new perspectives from the users here. With that sort of challenge to my already established line of thought, I feel a stronger kinship to the ANUS boards than I have ever felt at UG even though I have posted there infinitely more. Just makes more sense here since people like to uncover the shit from under the rug instead of letting it sit there like so many do.

I can't say I'm on the fence anymore, but as for certain things like social relations (especially with the opposite sex) and political issues (which I feel entirely overwhelmed and uneducated about), I am still revising. Alas, I feel confident that the general philosophy that most have a consensus here about is what is right, and more so what's intuitively right to me.

I read your first post. To claim that every person that listens to opeth is to impress friends and feel important is stupid. Of course some might do that, but not all. You should listen to Opeth if you want to, never repress it. Imagine if you stop listening to all you want: Fine, you will listen to alot of great quality music. But some day the Opeth desire, hidden, is going to manifest, and maybe you will even go downhill from there, listening to pop rock, reggay, etc.

You should never cease to listen to something because you discovered it's inferior. Rather you should listen until you are sick and tired of it by yourself, not by what other people say.

[Veritas]

Bravo.

[Wolfgang]

"Hold on, Pink Floyd isn't cool because the Hessian guys don't like it?

Better toss mine out too and grab some King Crimson even if their music has never resonated with me. It clearly will help me establish my Will to Power easier, or something, right? "

[Athanasius contra mundum]

"Hold on, Pink Floyd isn't cool because the Hessian guys don't like it?

Better toss mine out too and grab some King Crimson even if their music has never resonated with me. It clearly will help me establish my Will to Power easier, or something, right? "

This idea is so harped on around here that I've started to find it boring. I think a more interesting idea is this.

"Hold on, a minority group of people have reached consensus on standards for evaluating music?"

Better rabidly decry every musician they approve of, even if I actually like it, to show the world that I'm not a sheep!

[Wolfgang]

Everyone tiptoes around their "guilty pleasures" or other albums they like that the DLA or other Hessians in general doesn't. Fuck that. Own your music. The DLA isn't making apologies it likes the new Slayer junk, even if it holds the same place on the continuum between crap and classic that Death Magnetic does.