Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Thrash metal

Annihilaytorr

Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 06:31:59 AM
Quote
what did the verb thrash originally mean?


Thrash(the noun) was a word used for punk/hardcore based music and culture(and it was also used to describe "Skate culture", skate boarders and probably skatepunk too). Thrash METAL(key word being metal) is a term for speed metal/hardcore punk oriented styles mixing(Venom, Slayer, Metallica, Bathory)

Thrash music and culture + Heavy and speed Metal and culture = Thrash metal.  

More then that, the term came to mean so much more. It is like trying to debunk "dude" as a friendly noun for a male, because it was originally related to bovine cattle farms(and according to lore, infected hairs on the...).

as for the verb -
Main Entry: 1thrash
Pronunciation: 'thrash
Function: verb
Etymology: alteration of thresh
transitive senses
1 : to separate the seeds of from the husks and straw by beating : THRESH 1
2 a : to beat soundly with or as if with a stick or whip : FLOG b : to defeat decisively or severely <thrashed the visiting team>
3 : to swing, beat, or strike in the manner of a rapidly moving flail <thrashing his arms>
4 a : to go over again and again <thrash the matter over inconclusively> b : to hammer out : FORGE <thrash out a plan>
intransitive senses
1 : THRESH 1
2 : to deal blows or strokes like one using a flail or whip
3 : to move or stir about violently : toss about <thrash in bed with a fever>
synonym see SWING

...I think thrash metal has more in common with that then hardcore punk.

Its not as if the original meaning of the verb as any relevance to the debate anyway.  Whats next, negating the Goth metal genre because of the original meaning of "Goth"...lmfao.


Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 09:39:39 AM
I have a question.  You are now breaking thing's into three genre's, thrash, speed metal and thrash metal.  What do you consider to be examples of just speed metal then?

Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 09:49:38 AM
Overall I believe that thrash metal has become a legit term as it created itself over time just like the word gay no longer is assosiated with happiness to most people and is instead assosiated with homosexuality.  For historical and definition purposes, however, we see that gay still does mean happy but it means somthing else now as well.  The same thing goes for this thrash debate.  Thrash from the historical perspective is refering to the metal/hardcore crossover and thrash metal is the term that became accepted towards the late 80's to describe bands like Metallica, Sodom, Destruction, etc, who previously would have been called just speed metal in the earlier portion of the decade.  

I think that's really all SRP is getting at, that historically thrash refers to somthing different from what we know it as today when we say thrash metal, it's just like what happened with the word gay.  I think when he seperates what you call thrash metal into speed metal he's right and from a historical perspective he's more technically acute, but you are right as well as thrash metal has come to mean the same thing as speed metal and it is actually perhaps more widely understood and used by the majority today.  Really this seems like having a debate over the use of the word homosexual versus the word gay; they both have different origins but they both are talking about the same thing; the word homosexual is perhaps more acute but the word gay is more widely used, same with speed metal vs. thrash metal in my opinion.  Does that make sense?  Overall Annihilaytorr I think you're splitting hairs here because in the historical perspective he's right but in relation to the time span you are right as well as thrash metal is a commonly accepted term for bands like Metallica, Slayer, Sodom, etc etc.  I don't mean to speak for other's, but that's my observation from this discussion.  

Perhaps my thought's here are different than both of yours, so in that case if I actually disagree with both of you this is my stance on it and I'm sticking to it.

Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 09:53:03 AM
Also while I respect wikipedia and often use it and contribute to it's articles I find some problems with the link you supplied.  Under speed metal they put bands like Judas Priest and Deep Purple when to me I have alway's known those as just plain heavy metal.  They list Motorhead, which I can buy into, but I think even Motorhead, while a huge influence on what was to come in the speed genre, was still what I'd call a heavy metal band, just a heavy metal band with punk rock tempo.  They also said speed metal was fast heavy metal with more melody and less punk sounds than thrash metal, but then they list Venom and Motorhead as examples and both those bands have heavy punk stylings if you ask me (just wanted to note that as well).  

Also take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrashcore

What SRP has been calling thrash they call thrashcore.  

Basically what we are looking at is the following:

Genres:
Heavy metal, Speed metal, thrash metal (I believe they don't have their shit together on explainations of speed metal and I think that thrash and speed can be combined)

Thrashcore (what SRP has been refering to)

I think it's all just semantics.  I was an infant when all this was happening so I'm going to have to leave the ball in the court of people who grew up with all this as they were there.  It all seems convoluted and I really think everyone is right to some degree.  These genre classifacations can get to be too much at times; they are necessary as black metal obviously sounds nothing like power metal, but in this case I'd say it's easiest to be a bit laxed.  Whatever fate for these genre classifacations was out there was decided a long time ago by the magazines that fucked with the names back in the baby days of all this music.


Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 02:52:56 PM
All thrash/speed/whatever metal is worthless nowadays, so it doesn't really matter.

Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 06:08:54 PM
Quote
DRI, COC, Cryptic Slaughter, Dead Horse and Fearless Iranians From Hell are good examples of Thrash bands.

Before I get into the body of my post; the only album I've heard from the above list is "Of Peaceful Death and Pretty Flowers".  How do the others compare?

As for the speed vs. thrash metal debate; what does it really matter what it's called?  If what most people call "thrash metal" is actually speed metal, and what most people call "speed metal" is actually power metal, and then power metal is reserved for the overly-effiminate euro-style bands, so what?  What matters is the concept referred to by those terms (and, the concept is still the same, since the whole genre got renamed; it's not like Dark Angel is called speed and Kreator is called thrash).

@Phantasm: What prozak considers "speed metal" would be stuff that's commonly called thrash- Kreator, Dark Angel, early Metallica, early Megadeth, Exodus, Nuclear Assault, etc.  The more common definition, I believe, is stuff like Helstar- Nosferatu or Iced Earth- Burnt Offerings.

Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 10:20:12 PM
On Slayer: Hell Awaits and RiB are proto-Death Metal, "proto" because of the streamline(ish) punkish vocals, musically however...

The rest of their stuff early stuff is a blackened speed/power(metal) hybrid, with the exception of possibly "Chemical Warfare".

The "Thrash Metal" debate is always an interesting one, what did Bob Muldowney of Kick Ass Monthly say on the matter? He's the Lester Bangs of underground metal in many ways.

Re: Thrash metal
November 26, 2004, 11:20:12 PM
Quote
As for the speed vs. thrash metal debate; what does it really matter what it's called?  If what most people call "thrash metal" is actually speed metal, and what most people call "speed metal" is actually power metal, and then power metal is reserved for the overly-effiminate euro-style bands, so what?  What matters is the concept referred to by those terms (and, the concept is still the same, since the whole genre got renamed; it's not like Dark Angel is called speed and Kreator is called thrash).


In the whole of things, it's unimportant, but this is a metal forum so it's somthing to discuss.  

Quote
@Phantasm: What prozak considers "speed metal" would be stuff that's commonly called thrash- Kreator, Dark Angel, early Metallica, early Megadeth, Exodus, Nuclear Assault, etc.  The more common definition, I believe, is stuff like Helstar- Nosferatu or Iced Earth- Burnt Offerings.


Thank's for the classifications btw.





Annihilaytorr

Re: Thrash metal
November 27, 2004, 05:30:47 PM
Quote
I think that's really all SRP is getting at, that historically thrash refers to somthing different from what we know it as today when we say thrash metal, it's just like what happened with the word gay.  I think when he seperates what you call thrash metal into speed metal he's right and from a historical perspective he's more technically acute, but you are right as well as thrash metal has come to mean the same thing as speed metal and it is actually perhaps more widely understood and used by the majority today.  Really this seems like having a debate over the use of the word homosexual versus the word gay; they both have different origins but they both are talking about the same thing; the word homosexual is perhaps more acute but the word gay is more widely used, same with speed metal vs. thrash metal in my opinion.  Does that make sense?  

 



Exactly. Where the logic problem comes in is that SRP accepts Black Metal by its later definition and does not define it by the same time period he defines Thrash in with.  

Annihilaytorr

Re: Thrash metal
November 27, 2004, 06:38:14 PM
Quote
All thrash/speed/whatever metal is worthless nowadays, so it doesn't really matter.


What was good is always good. There is very little that can change the worth of art.  Thrash metal slices your head off now as it did then.  


What SRP thinks is not law for most people.

Re: Thrash metal
November 28, 2004, 12:45:17 PM
Who denied the existence of the powerful metal style of all? it will always be the best genre and i shall support it, you can go listen to black metal but i wont, and thrash metal, most certainly is a genre :F

Re: Thrash metal
November 28, 2004, 02:30:53 PM
SRP, please make your point more clear and give a logical and structured explanation of it.
The term "Speed Metal" is used to refer to a faster and more riff oriented version of Heavy Metal.But it was never as brutal as Thrash became.Good examples of Speed Metal are Metallica's debut, Dead Engine (1985) - Hot Shot, Blitzkrieg with the self titled song, Judas Priest (1990) - Painkiller. Speed Metal was more of transition genre, it didn't become widespread.and besides this term is rather vague, so the bands are usually tagged as Thrash Metal or Heavy Metal.
As for Thrash  Metal it is a fusion of Speed Metal with Hardcore (Discharge, Amebix, Exploited etc.) with qualitites of agression, brutality taken to extremes.There's a clear difference between them.But in course of time the hardcore influence became less obvious.Unlike Speed Metal Thrash is not that  homogeneous.Compare for example bands from two different ends of Thrash spectrum : Morbid Saint with Tankard or even with Overkill.
If you do not accept the validity of the term "Thrash" you will end up with having alot of bands that can't be classified as any existing genre.

Re: Thrash metal
November 28, 2004, 04:57:56 PM
Quote
If you do not accept the validity of the term "Thrash" you will end up with having alot of bands that can't be classified as any existing genre.


From my perspective, you are the one denying the validity of the term "thrash" by trying to apply it to an already-categorized metal genre.

It is a crossover genre, and nothing like it exists; it isn't hardcore and it isn't metalcore and it isn't grindcore, but its own entity.

The term "thrash" for speed metal (or heavy metal or hybrid speed/death like Kreator and Destruction) was invented by heavy metal magazines for the purpose of selling albums.

Pick your loyalty: historical accuracy, or $$$



Re: Thrash metal
November 28, 2004, 04:58:46 PM
Quote
Exactly. Where the logic problem comes in is that SRP accepts Black Metal by its later definition and does not define it by the same time period he defines Thrash in with.  


Of course he doesn't - you define movements by their maturation, not the coinage of a term.


Annihilaytorr

Re: Thrash metal
November 28, 2004, 05:07:20 PM
The magaziness started calling bands in Norway Black Metal too when they didn't want called as such early on, but I don't hear you denying Enslaved as Black Metal.  NWOBHM is another magazine invented label. So is Nu-metal. Do we deny the existence of these genres? No. More then just magazines accepted and used the term anyway. The mag thing is a moot point.

I have never heard a Thrash Metal band reject being called a thrash band, I have heard many Black and Death bands reject those labels however.