Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

End of post-WWII order

End of post-WWII order
June 11, 2010, 05:18:13 PM
Worldwide, it seems, the balance we established after WWII -- that liberal democracy with a socialist subsidy basis and many personal freedoms, especially those for the freaky -- is collapsing, and people are looking for a new paradigm. Mostly, they're turning to what worked BEFORE the European revolutions of 1789-1968.

Quote
The welfare states of Europe that rose out of the ashes of the Second World War are now facing destruction because of the sovereign debt crisis, analysts say.

The troubles that began with the collapse of Greece and which now threaten the euro spell the end for excessive and occasionally corrupt welfare systems, they say.

The pronouncement from a highly regarded U.S. think tank reflected popular opinion across northern European countries.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1281040/The-death-welfare-state-Europe-U-S-think-tank-labels-generosity-unaffordable-warns-day-reckoning.html#ixzz0qZ9DiVPn

More than economics is at stake here, but this is a good start.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 11, 2010, 05:43:13 PM
The welfare states of many European countries are disproportionately (ab)used by Muslim immigrants.  This will further perpetuate conflicts, most likely to the breaking point.  Massive nationalist movements will arise, and a new global war will proceed.  Let's hope Einstein was wrong about World War III.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 11, 2010, 06:52:47 PM
To speak the truth, I have no idea what economy is, how it works, it puzzles me and I don't understand how people can even discuss it. I'm not asking to be explained, just stating that economics is a shadowed area for me. Maybe that can change by reading books.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 11, 2010, 08:52:36 PM
Conservationist has a good point. The biggest problem with the EU is that it's not a reality: it's an ideal. The EU seems to just add some countries for the numbers, for short term rewards (cheap immigrant workers now coming from Eastern European countries such as Poland) and for other dubious reasons. As such it was going in wrong directions anyway. An enema would do the EU much good.

Until recently government officials in Greece went on a pension when they turned 53. Only in last April did they change this to 67. Normal Greek workers could go on an early pension at age 55, in most of the rest of Europe you have to wait until age 60 to get a chance for early retirement. With servants like that who needs enemies?

Raising the pension age from 65 to 67 is hardly going to be effective for the rest of Europe though. Most people can't find a job after age 55 anymore, no one will hire them because they're too old. So it just means 2 more years of welfare instead of 2 years of pension for most people. It's hardly going to be effective.

The EU should simply stop adding countries that are unreliable or unstable to their ranks, they need to raise the standard. And if a country collapses under its own corruption and lies then sever it like the rotten limb it is. I wonder why people were rioting in Greece, they should get off their ass and start working instead of complaining about how life is unfair to them. They were fine with being lazy and going on a pension at age 61 while the rest of Europe worked until 65, and now they riot? Oh please...

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 11, 2010, 09:50:07 PM
Glossary terms of the day from altright

Wilsonian
Quote
Wilsonian paradigm (to which most Europeans subscribe even without being aware of that fact) is embodied in Obama, Pelosi and the Clintons here, Javier Solana and Tony Blair in Europe, and George Soros everywhere.

Neoconservative
Quote
The neocons include Marxist intellectuals like Podhoretz, Kristol, or Muravchik, and policy gurus like Wolfowitz, Perle, and Feith. Their blanket depictions as redesigned Trotskyites need to be corrected. In several important respects the neoconservative world outlook has some striking similarities with Stalinism and German National Socialism. Today’s neoconservatives share with Stalin and Hitler an ideology of nationalist corporatism at home and internationalist imperialism.

Realist
Quote
The realist knows that our primary interests in the Middle East are not to defend human rights, or to promote democracy, or to build a Palestinian state, or to treat Israel as an existential American ally “with no space between us whatsoever.” Our interests are continued access to oil resources...

Wilsonians are Europe's social democrats, the welfare state people. Bring the world to us so we can socialize them into better humans. Neoconservatives seek to remake the world at large. Let's go out to the world and socialize them into better humans. Realists understand the wasteful futility of these ideologies and instead seek to reckon with the world as it was already designed to function. Evolve.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 12, 2010, 04:19:50 AM
I thought the post war concensus ended in the 80's?

The recession is overstated. Undoubtably, there's going to be a reckoning, when the lack of resources reaches a crisis point. This just isn't it.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 12, 2010, 04:33:07 AM
There isn't going to be any It. There never was one. It's a slow decay process across generations and we are some number of generations into the process. Yet, all along, we have been sold on Progress.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 12, 2010, 01:25:31 PM
Glossary terms of the day from altright

Wilsonian
Quote
Wilsonian paradigm (to which most Europeans subscribe even without being aware of that fact) is embodied in Obama, Pelosi and the Clintons here, Javier Solana and Tony Blair in Europe, and George Soros everywhere.

Neoconservative
Quote
The neocons include Marxist intellectuals like Podhoretz, Kristol, or Muravchik, and policy gurus like Wolfowitz, Perle, and Feith. Their blanket depictions as redesigned Trotskyites need to be corrected. In several important respects the neoconservative world outlook has some striking similarities with Stalinism and German National Socialism. Today’s neoconservatives share with Stalin and Hitler an ideology of nationalist corporatism at home and internationalist imperialism.

Realist
Quote
The realist knows that our primary interests in the Middle East are not to defend human rights, or to promote democracy, or to build a Palestinian state, or to treat Israel as an existential American ally “with no space between us whatsoever.” Our interests are continued access to oil resources...

Wilsonians are Europe's social democrats, the welfare state people. Bring the world to us so we can socialize them into better humans. Neoconservatives seek to remake the world at large. Let's go out to the world and socialize them into better humans. Realists understand the wasteful futility of these ideologies and instead seek to reckon with the world as it was already designed to function. Evolve.

I think these definitions are kind of amateurish.

Neocons are conservatives with a liberal motivation: "bringing democracy and enlightenment to the world." The opposite is paleocon, a group that includes all Traditionalists, nationalists, Romantics and pragmatists.

It's more sensible to say that Europeans are driven by European-socialism, which is basically capitalism with a giant safety net -- but on its dark side, creates a bureaucratic society that turns everyone into wimps.

Bureaucracy, Christianity, The French Revolution... these are the essence of European wimpiness. That continent of fags will be unable to wage a war, produce meaningful art, or even raise non-neurotic children until it fixes this issue.

In the meantime, every society declines into Brazil, eventually:

* Mixed race
* Mixed caste
* Gender roles unclear
* Oligarchy/corruption
* Populism
* Pollution
* Ecocide
* Lack of innovation
* Starvation, eventually

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 12, 2010, 11:48:15 PM
There isn't going to be any It. There never was one. It's a slow decay process across generations and we are some number of generations into the process. Yet, all along, we have been sold on Progress.

I think it's niaive to believe that in the face of decay, there won't be conflict. People are self-interested, and nations are self interested. And for the most powerful of those nations and people, conflict will be in their best interest.

Re: End of post-WWII order
June 14, 2010, 03:52:06 AM
End of History, Neoconservative and Wilsonian: We found success but everyone else is failure. The solution is to socialize and subsidize everyone else in our image, no matter the cost.

Somewhere in Time, Realist: We continue our path toward our next speciation or extinction event. Humans aren't broken, they're evolving unequally in parallel as subspecies. The solution is to let nature take its course.

To speak the truth, I have no idea what economy is, how it works, it puzzles me and I don't understand how people can even discuss it. I'm not asking to be explained, just stating that economics is a shadowed area for me. Maybe that can change by reading books.

Some dude recommends this as a minimum. http://jim.com/econ/