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Atheism: another dead end

Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 01:21:18 AM
Any corrupt system will provide you with false "alternatives" to keep internal dissent high, consensus low, and thus assure its continued control and the continued distraction of its citizens. When it's an empire of citizens wanting autonomy, doubly so.

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The irony is that this current brand of aggressive atheism is just another form of fundamentalism. These particular atheists are zealots on the subject of faith who see no shadings of gray, only black and white. They're dead-set against religion but weirdly obsessed with it.

The "new atheism," as it's called by its adherents, is itself a kind of church. An anti-church church, granted, but a form of lockstep belief nonetheless.

Read more: http://www.kentucky.com/2010/06/12/1303777/paul-prather-new-atheists-embody.html#ixzz0qgxlWeqo

Atheism is a silly sidestep. Instead, reform the church or become Hindu. But don't let the idiots con you into destroying every form of giving a damn, just so they can be "free" of caring at all.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 02:10:35 AM
I mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating.  The biggest problem with Atheism is that it's a negative position, and therefore it is limited in how one can promote it.  The "New Atheists" as they are called, are actually promoting Secular Humanism.  The second I realized this I lost all hope in them and abandoned any connections to them that I had, although I still identify as atheist when asked.  It seems the only honest answer to give.  I suppose I could be a reform minded Secular Jew, but I'm part of the less than 2% of the population who are just not wired for religiousity / spirituality / etc.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 03:53:03 AM
Pascal's wager:

You don't believe in God + God exists = infinite loss
You don't believe in God + God does not exist = finite gain
You believe in God + God does not exist = finite loss
You believe in God + God exists = infinite gain
His Majesty at the Swamp / Black Arts Lead to Everlasting Sins / Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism / Oath of Black Blood / Privilege of Evil / Dawn of Possession / In Battle There is No Law / Thousand Swords / To Mega Therion

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 04:19:10 AM
The biggest problem with Atheism is that it's a negative position, and therefore it is limited in how one can promote it.

What a coincidence. You must be lurking in the NIHIL list. Negative position indeed. I'll chalk atheism up alongside American white nationalism and G8/G20 protestors.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 04:28:59 AM
Atheism as an end is dead... but isn't anything?  Nihilism, as an end in itself, is fatalism.  The distinction between active and passive nihilism is one continually made here, and one that applies to atheism as well.

The atheist/ theist binary suggests that one must consciously take up a position, and decide to see the world in a certain way.  Yes, atheism is the negative position, and a reaction against theism.  This is part of the problem.  The larger problem on both sides: in both cases you wind up arguing over which is 'Right', and forget that we must define our own values and ideals in order to accomplish anything.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 06:28:31 AM
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The irony is that this current brand of aggressive atheism is just another form of fundamentalism. These particular atheists are zealots on the subject of faith who see no shadings of gray, only black and white. They're dead-set against religion but weirdly obsessed with it. [...]

I emphatically disagree with the notion that it's either a matter of atheism, agnosticism, or faith.

I believe people should be raised atheist as children and taught how to think logically and critically about things, and then when they're older they can form their own ideas.

An admittedly huge point of contention in the domains of spirituality/religion today is the notion that varieties of spirituality/religion can exist on a purely logical basis, but that they can is absolutely my conviction, as my paradigm would be a case in point. (Although depending on your definition of "religion" perhaps in that case, as opposed to spirituality, it would necessarily be strictly a matter of faith.)

One of the things that drives atheists so up the walls is this notion from some faith-based religions that you aren't supposed to know the divine, because if you knew for sure then you could not have doubt or faith. It's basically tossing logic into the waste bin, and hell from this perspective you should by all means raise your children religiously. (The point of contention returns as you should not raise your children on such a faith basis unless you think all spirituality and religion operates on the same basis, unless you want to deprive your children of the freedom to chose their own spiritual/religious path).

I thinks it's extremely important to recognize that the term "atheist" can mean different things to different people. One example I could think of of a 'positive' atheist is a person who acts in accordance with what feels good and who has come to realize that acting out of love and compassion is precisely that which, for whatever reasons, lead one to feel best--such a view operates merely on the basis of self-honestly and emotional correspondence which can be experientially verified and requires no belief in external divinity; I'm often struck by successful scientists possessing this quality.

Also I think it's important to recognize that often a person will call themselves an atheist, but really that's just a term they use. Ultimately they have not overcome the dilemma of existential uncertainty, although they may not wrestle with it like an existentialist or a non-ANUS-style nihilist still they cannot say that tomorrow will even ever arrive, that the sun will rise again, or that any piece of inductive (as opposed to deductive) reasoning can hold any water at all whatsoever. And of course in this case, even if they say they are absolutely an atheist, ultimately they don't know anything for certain, and if the definition of agnosticism is being uncertain about divinity then they're really agnostics. (If you define agnosticism as being open to the possibility then admittedly that's another story.)

In my view there is a left-hand-path and a right-hand-path, spiritually speaking, and the more left-leaning paths tend to be more logic-based, less faith-based. But I suppose that's a whole other story...

In closing I would just add that if we take atheism to be a dead end, we need to be careful what we mean. Should a person be raised to think critically about things from a logic-based perspective? Which is not to say they can never choose to become a person of faith later in life, but simply that such choice would be an informed one. Or should a person be raised religiously, to never question, to never challenge? It seems to me that much modern atheism is a response to the sheer extent of stupidity within modern religion, and that this stupidity arises in part from not letting kids develop properly, freely. I would say that it is paramount to be allowed to not know so that then one can be allowed to explore and come to Truth in their own right.
www.TheMetalDiscourser.com
The universe is naked, attack its corpus, take a real stab at your life and let the blood flow RIP the sound of the very fabric tearing.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 07:06:19 AM
People aren't primarily anything except organisms breathing, eating, reproducing. All people are not primarily logical thinkers. Some people are. Other people primarily need an inspirational or mythical foundation. Still others might need something else, like euthanizing.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 12:23:25 PM
I believe people should be raised atheist as children and taught how to think logically and critically about things, and then when they're older they can form their own ideas.

99% of people cannot do that.

Yes, that may be how you wish YOU were raised, but...

Back to reality, that's not applicable.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 01:11:18 PM
Quote from: scourge
What a coincidence. You must be lurking in the NIHIL list.
What's the NIHIL list and how does one lurk it?  Is that another forum or something?

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 01:58:05 PM
The "New Atheists" as they are called, are actually promoting Secular Humanism.

True, and Secular Humanism is essentially Christian morality without God, and without the inherent conservatism of religiosity.

It's not surprising, then, that atheists are as dogma as Christians.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 03:27:02 PM
True, and Secular Humanism is essentially Christian morality without God, and without the inherent conservatism of religiosity.

It's not surprising, then, that atheists are as dogma as Christians.

You continue to hit the nail on the head. Atheism to me is as pointless as most religions. What are you doing by saying God does not exist? You're being dogmatic one way instead of the other. Same shit, different stink.

I believe it is important for one to form their own beliefs. Try not to be dogmatic about something unless you KNOW what you're talking about.
No.

Having reviewed the thread, baby Jesus is most definitely weeping at this point.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 03:32:33 PM
I believe people should be raised atheist as children and taught how to think logically and critically about things, and then when they're older they can form their own ideas.

99% of people cannot do that.

Yes, that may be how you wish YOU were raised, but...

Back to reality, that's not applicable.

I completely disagree. Logic is as basic as putting food on your dinner plate or brushing your teeth before bed, faith can't do that only logic can. Faith is something you can learn in life, but logic is a completely different thing, it is innate to the human condition because it is a fundamental element of reality, that is to say, reality functions according to cause and effect, there is causality rather than chaos. And if you can grasp logic then you can begin to think for yourself.

So long as you're taught that ignorance correlates with suffering, then you're going to want to know stuff, it's really that simple. To be logically-minded in this context doesn't necessarily mean you are a master of logic, it just means you are making the attempt... most people are raised by bad parents and have a bunch of shit to work through, yes, but the question is what tools are going to give them the best chances?
www.TheMetalDiscourser.com
The universe is naked, attack its corpus, take a real stab at your life and let the blood flow RIP the sound of the very fabric tearing.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 03:40:32 PM
Nobody is saying logic is bad. We're saying many are born incapable of using it. For the most part, they'll never, ever think for themselves. Who really does in a pure sense? People can't all get nurtured into thinking for themselves with 10000 hours of logic lessons. It isn't going to happen. You'll have an 8% minority who are better off for it in the long run. The rest would benefit better in their lives with a more creative foundation. We can't all be alphas. Most are betas. And we're growing an assload of omegas these days to boot.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 04:01:37 PM
The biggest problem with Atheism is that it's a negative position, and therefore it is limited in how one can promote it.

What a coincidence. You must be lurking in the NIHIL list. Negative position indeed. I'll chalk atheism up alongside American white nationalism and G8/G20 protestors.

For most, atheism is more or less a smug interjection to throw in someone's face when debating religion, or even the existence of God. The word is heard and regurgitated for looking and sounding 'dangerous' in conversation, all while feeling superior for having a 'unique' system of beliefs. Now, this may not be the case for everyone.. but the cool guys who hang out at Starbucks blogging on Macbooks, well.. Many atheists these days were raised Christian, so I wouldn't be surprised that they still retain Christian values(egalitarianism, humanism) while ditching the jazz about God to solely appease themselves.

Also, the G-20 Summit came to Pittsburgh not too long ago.... man. Has there ever been a time you did everything in your power NOT to veer your vehicle into a crowd of hapless 18-24 year old turds stinking up a sidewalk, protesting something that they really didn't understand? I SURE KNOW ONE.

Re: Atheism: another dead end
June 13, 2010, 04:10:12 PM
This my be some sort of culture clash or something with you americans, but really, it is not a big deal to most atheist europeans. It is not a rallying flag, or an identity or a deep philosophy or a way of life or anything. It is, for most, purely a statement on the physical world. There is no reasonable empirical reason to except that the guy-in-the-sky god exists, therefor, the assumption is he doesn't. Now what's for lunch?

Pascal's wager:

You don't believe in God + God exists = infinite loss
You don't believe in God + God does not exist = finite gain
You believe in God + God does not exist = finite loss
You believe in God + God exists = infinite gain

There's about a billion different reasons why Pascal's Wager is silly. Here's one: there are multiple faiths that punish heretics worse than unbelievers. Therefore, assuming the likelihood of each religion is equal, as is the chance of there being no religion (....no I don't think this assumption quite holds, but it's Pascal's assumption for Christianity, so why not), it is better to be an unbeliever, since the odds of getting the 'right' religion are pretty small.

True, and Secular Humanism is essentially Christian morality without God, and without the inherent conservatism of religiosity.

It's not surprising, then, that atheists are as dogma as Christians.

You continue to hit the nail on the head. Atheism to me is as pointless as most religions. What are you doing by saying God does not exist? You're being dogmatic one way instead of the other. Same shit, different stink.

I believe it is important for one to form their own beliefs. Try not to be dogmatic about something unless you KNOW what you're talking about.
By saying "God does not exist", you are saying "the most commonly defined way of God, which is some guy with a book writing down who's good and bad, has as much empirical evidence to back it up as the flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorns and leprechauns. Since any of the latter would have less possibility and motive to make themselves observed, the chance of  the flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorns or leprechauns being a physical being part of our reality is greater than that of God being part of our reality. Therefore, until I receive new data that suggests otherwise, I will operate under the assumption that God does is physically a part of our reality".  But that's such a mouthful, and I'm not even being very precise here.

Nobody is saying logic is bad. We're saying many are born incapable of using it. For the most part, they'll never, ever think for themselves. Who really does in a pure sense? People can't all get nurtured into thinking for themselves with 10000 hours of logic lessons. It isn't going to happen. You'll have an 8% minority who are better off for it in the long run. The rest would benefit better in their lives with a more creative foundation. We can't all be alphas. Most are betas. And we're growing an assload of omegas these days to boot.
As long as the masses hold power, might as well try and throw the right kind of ideas (e.g., the logical ones) out there. Sure, most won't be able to grasp them all, but at least the "1%" (really? Only 1%? speaking of a 'negative position'....) gets something to think about.