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July 12, 2010, 09:00:22 PM
I stumbled across this site and it has a ton of content, some of which seems quite interesting.  Then I came across what it had to say about ANUS:

"What is ANUS? Neither Freydis, Nihilism’s Home Page, nor CounterOrder.com are affiliated with ANUS, an acronym for American Nihilist Underground Society. They currently promote an unusual mixture of heavy metal music and extreme nationalism.

Further, ANUS, the Center for Nihilist and Nihilism Studies, and multiple connected Internet sites, most of which are false-fronts, are part of a deceptive effort to present an Internet presence that is larger and more important than it really is. The proponents behind these websites are not nihilists, nor are they likely any of the other labels they’ve claimed in their panoply of terminology, they’re simply race-based ultra-nationalists and the rest is window-dressing. This is the reason why it's so difficult to determine from superficial elements just what exactly ANUS and associated groups really represent. And it appears that they want to own and co-opt every kind of post-modern phraseology they can find so they can manipulate it towards their agenda. That’s not to say that their actual ideas and conclusions behind the smokescreen have no merit or shouldn’t be debated, rather that their approach is intentionally disingenuous and that raises serious questions as to the honesty and integrity of the source. Being ideologically motivated they are willing to place belief ahead of facts because for them to mislead is acceptable if it promotes their core values."

Nice, I didn't see that rebuttal.  I am guessing he didn't respond to that or post that rebuttal on his website?

There's nothing "so-called" about it. ANUS is about as nihilist as Elton John is straight. Counterorder comes leaps and bounds closer to nihilism.

Their criticisms of ANUS are well justified too and I've echoed them many, many times. Every time I hear "LOL CHUCK DIED FROM AIDS" I become just a little more disillusioned with this site.


Here are some useful definitions of nihilism:

New Advent: Catholic Encyclopedia
a Nihilist is one who bows to no authority and accepts no doctrine, however widespread, that is not supported by proof.

Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless
Existential nihilism begins with the notion that the world is without meaning or purpose.

Nihilism (pronounced /ˈnaɪ.əˌlɪzəm/ or /ˈni.əˌlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life[1] is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological, metaphysical or ontological forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible or that contrary to our belief, some aspect of reality does not exist as such.

Nihilism is potentially an excellent starting point for advancing ourselves socially, something we have not done since abandoning hunter gatherer life.

The threatened little chimp insticts are still with us. Maybe that's why we cling to anthrocentric humanism, but rationalize this impulse variously with 1) God loves us all, 2) We are one in humanity, any other fantasist tripe. The result of this suicidal speciesism cult is 7 billion of us crowding a gradually toxifying desertifying world. Meanwhile, the cold vastness out there remains unaware of us.

The anthrocentric will hate this but we are just meat that soon rots. We are not special, nor does reality revolve around us.
”The Revolution ends by devouring its own children” – Jacques Mallet du Pan, 1793

Re: Counterorder.com
July 14, 2010, 06:05:46 AM
It would seem to me that the Obverse Observer is something more of a trans-humanist than a nihilist.  That and a priest.  From a short skimming of the website I have found that it lists very little convincing evidence to support their claims other than if you disagree with what has been written there you are wrong.

A humorous statment:
"They use agents as relentless apologists, advertisers, and salesmen to troll message boards, IRC channels, and anywhere else they can gain access to in order to push their agenda, which is simply elitist fascism in an ant-heap society (placing themselves at the top, of course)."

While I do not know if this website trolls at all it does seem to know all about pushing one's own agenda.  The only one that is acceptable is the one presented by the Observer himself.  Let us delve further.  The section The Problem with the ANUS (http://www.counterorder.com/beyond.html#32), for all of its fury about the ANUS "pushing" its own ideas and agenda it seems to do a fair amount of that itself.

I also find it odd that a website with such a trans-humanist sentiment would promote nihilism to begin with considering its definition.  For the sake of argument that definition being the denial of all value to life (that the universe has no "will" of its own, no agenda).  That seems to come into direct conflict with the trans-humanist idea of building the "perfect" human.  Now this is probably defended with such reasons as "why wouldn't you want to be as efficient as possible?" or "its all about the advancement of humanity."  This is a thinly veiled front for individualists, socialists, and anyone who cannot accept that they are not kings of the universe.  I say this because the only reason for wanting to "perfect" humanity (or anything for that matter) is out of a resentment towards an oblivious universe.  Resentment that terrible things happen to humans.  Resentment that humans do terrible things to each other, for whatever reason.  Resentment that these terrible things might happen to themselves and that they are affected by these events.  This suggests that the true goal of this ideology is to eliminate all human suffering so that our lives are all pleasant and our desires eternally fulfilled.  In short, Heaven.  This Observer is a priest after all!

Re: Counterorder.com
July 15, 2010, 02:34:24 AM
Watch The Big Lebowski for a perfect mockery of the idea of nihilism found on Counterorder. It's completely accurate.

Here's a definition of two forms of nihilism that ANUS is congruent with. Scroll down for the important part.

The term nihilism is often used as a derogatory label intended to impugn the moral credibility of a certain target. In this normative sense, it is meant as nothing more than an exclamation of negative sentiment; a way of expressing distaste for the thing being refferred to.
Taken seriously as a philosophic concept, however, it acquires a more interesting dimension. Literally, nihilism is a doctrine of nothingness. It is an extreme form of skepticism which holds that any genuine knowledge of the world, wether it be moral, scientific, metaphysical, political or theological is impossible. It is an epistemological doctrine stemming from the conviction that man is incapable of knowing the worlds true nature either because the world has no true nature or because the nature of the world is inaccessible to man's intuitive, intellectual or sensory apparatus.

The nihilist is in an unusual position in relation to the world. Unlike a cartesian, the nihilist is never able to satisfy himself that the world is as it seems. He has no archimedian point on which to stand, and no way to be certain of what is real or imaginary, or of what is true or false. This skepticism about man's ability to understand the world was described by Nietzsche as the death of God. Man's loss of faith in God and the eternal truths that he ensures undermines all structures of authority, leaving man in a position where, apart from his will to do so, he has no justification for asserting anything as true or false. This responsibility for one's perspective is potentially crippling and may lead to feelings of despair and negativity. If nothing can be known for certain, and if there are no objective standards by which to judge truth and falsehood, life could be seen as meaningless and absurd. Further if life is meaningless and absurd then there is no justification for choosing life over death.

All nihilists must deal with the issue of how and if life has value. this is the very topic which propelled Albert Camus' writing career, and as he observed the nihilist is not comitted to life denial or suicide. He may instead elect to suffer through life in uncertainty, struggling each and every day with feelings of negativity as an option against suicide and death. As another option he may choose to rebel against this negative propensity and instead of feeling resentment towards his situation, will himself to experience the exhilaration of interpretive freedom. The choice of the nihilist is, then, not necessarily the choice between living and dying, but the choice between adopting a passive or an active stance towards the world. Both Camus and Nietzsche advocate the choice of active over passive nihilism.

Here's the important part:
Passive nihilsim is indicative of a decline in spiritual power. It is characterized by the inability to create, or in the extreme to react. The passive nihilist is one who, when faced with the world's uncertainty, withdraws and refuses to enagage the world. For him, uncertainty is a sufficient condition not to proceed through life, and so paralysed by fear of the unknown and unknowable he does nothing. Nietzsche described this condition as ".. the weary nihilism that no longer attacks..a passive nihilism, a sign of weakness".

Active Nihilism on the other hand, is indicative of a relative increase in spiritual power. the active nihilist sees freedom where the passive nihilist sees absurdity or meaninglessness. He chooses action and creation instead of passivity and withdrawal. For him, the lack of objective standards of truth motivates self created standards and criteria. The active nihilist is not active despite the unknown but because of it. He possesses a store of creative energy and power which allows him to impose personal meaning on the world while never forgetting that hes is the source and progenitor of that meaning. He is heroic in this sense, facing the world with courage and purpose.

- http://everything2.com/title/Active+vs+Passive+Nihilism

ANUS espouses the "active nihilism," and scorns the passive form. My only guess as to why it might look like somebody "pushing an agenda" because it doesn't attempt to bog itself down in cool looking labels™

Re: Counterorder.com
July 18, 2010, 11:09:35 AM
Didn't realise I had a fan club, but I can barely be bothered coming here to read the same crap over and over, let alone post a reply that I thought jewbob adequately answered previously.

Re: Counterorder.com
July 18, 2010, 02:27:23 PM
Didn't realise I had a fan club, but I can barely be bothered coming here to read the same crap over and over, let alone post a reply that I thought jewbob adequately answered previously.

JewBob gave public definitions of nihilism. However, he did not give us a summary of ANUSian beliefs. Let's review your original statement:

There's nothing "so-called" about it. ANUS is about as nihilist as Elton John is straight. Counterorder comes leaps and bounds closer to nihilism.

Their criticisms of ANUS are well justified too and I've echoed them many, many times.

So right now we need some meat behind this assertion, or it's going to look like (and probably be) drive-by passive aggression, which is what embittered, destructive and pointless people do.


Freydis is a coward.

Could you please tell me how we could improve ANUS, I can't get your proposals in what you write, but I'm pretty sure you have them, or perhaps another project?

Now we've got plenty of critics who "can't be bothered" to back up their claims. I guess if I cared enough to make an assertion, and didn't think my audience were useless fucking morons, I'd at least type in a few words summarizing my reasoning, or wouldn't blame people for calling me a coward.

Re: Counterorder.com
July 18, 2010, 02:30:26 PM
drive-by passive aggression

which is what embittered, destructive and pointless people do.


Re: Counterorder.com
July 18, 2010, 02:39:41 PM

A crypto-Christian! Boys, get the tar and feathers...

(Tar and feathering is still the most hilarious punishment I can imagine... and a really nasty one.)