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Audiences hate modern classical music

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
September 29, 2010, 03:13:01 PM
Despite the War of the Romantics, no one rioted at Wagner's performances.  I think this speaks volumes when compared to some of the debacles of atonality/serialism/twelve-tone, etc, and says alot about the "natural progression" of styles.  You'll be hard pressed to find such violent rejections of a style paralleled, and this is understandable given how it completely dispensed with so central a rule of music.

Now, maybe I just don't have an ear for it, but to be fair, I don't feel I'm missing out on much.

Schoenberg's premieres were generally well received, Webern's not so much.  I'm not sure but I believe the riot you are referring to is the one at the premiere of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", firstly this is not atonal/serialist music, secondly the riot had more to do with the choreography than the music.

Who would question the judgement of the masses anyway right?

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
September 30, 2010, 02:17:11 AM
Despite the War of the Romantics, no one rioted at Wagner's performances.  I think this speaks volumes when compared to some of the debacles of atonality/serialism/twelve-tone, etc, and says alot about the "natural progression" of styles.  You'll be hard pressed to find such violent rejections of a style paralleled, and this is understandable given how it completely dispensed with so central a rule of music.

Now, maybe I just don't have an ear for it, but to be fair, I don't feel I'm missing out on much.

Schoenberg's premieres were generally well received, Webern's not so much.  I'm not sure but I believe the riot you are referring to is the one at the premiere of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", firstly this is not atonal/serialist music, secondly the riot had more to do with the choreography than the music.

Who would question the judgement of the masses anyway right?

Not to split hairs, but it was in part over the music, which was violently different from anything preceding it.  The idea was that many artists of good quality had never before induced a riot, irrespective of their audience.  We can claim they weren't ready for it, those poor plebeians, but really, give me one instance in history where people have been that angered over a piece of music due to the music itself.  Did the introduction of polyphony, chromaticism, harmony, counterpoint, cause fists to fly?  No, but a piece in which gratuitous amounts of rootless dissonance were the selling point did.

The inevitable result of this focus on dissonance/atonality, etc. in modern classical is to portray EVERYTHING in a grotesque, skewed, and "Oh, woe is life" way.  It seems fundamentally sick music in a way that metal isn't.  Metal doesn't compose pieces referencing one's sexual impotence and homosexual tendencies.  Yes, I'm arguing twelve-tone/atonality/serialism, etc, is inevitably linked to a materialistic Freudian/Marxist sickness, or at least really seems to be picked up upon by those types (Adorno).

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
September 30, 2010, 08:27:29 PM
There was a shift in the concert going etiquette around this time that explains in part why those riots and scandals occurred. As conductors and musicians tried to instill the idea amongst the audience that a concert was supposed to be a near religious experience where silence and reverence were the norm, that had the side effect of empowering hecklers and give them the center stage. It's obvious that someone voicing his discontent and thus breaking the 'sacred' silence reigning amongst the audience will have more effect than he would have had back in Beethoven's, Monteverdi's or Mozart's time, when concerts were almost more of a social happening than a musical one. People just didn't take music seriously enough to get worked out with it, because otherwise I can definitely see people rioting over excessively complex and hard to grasp works like the Beethoven's Great Fugue (especially when you consider how cacophonous those might have sounded at their premiere, musicianship has improved tremendously since the 1800s).

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The inevitable result of this focus on dissonance/atonality, etc. in modern classical is to portray EVERYTHING in a grotesque, skewed, and "Oh, woe is life" way.  It seems fundamentally sick music in a way that metal isn't.
Again, I really don't hear it. Where's the grotesque in this? How is it skewed, sick, and how does it reflect a negative outlook on the world?


Quote
Metal doesn't compose pieces referencing one's sexual impotence and homosexual tendencies.  Yes, I'm arguing twelve-tone/atonality/serialism, etc, is inevitably linked to a materialistic Freudian/Marxist sickness, or at least really seems to be picked up upon by those types (Adorno).
bit ironic again here, but Schoenberg is using almost exactly the same vocabulary when he's refering to the state of tonality in his time:


From Ross' The Rest is Noise.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 01, 2010, 10:18:18 AM
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The inevitable result of this focus on dissonance/atonality, etc. in modern classical is to portray EVERYTHING in a grotesque, skewed, and "Oh, woe is life" way.  It seems fundamentally sick music in a way that metal isn't.
Again, I really don't hear it. Where's the grotesque in this? How is it skewed, sick, and how does it reflect a negative outlook on the world?

It's fucking awful.  I mean, it's legitimately, objectively, incomparably fucking awful.  I've rarely been so disgusted by a piece of music that wasn't modern "pop".

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 01, 2010, 02:36:26 PM
Well, to be dead honest, it just sounds wrong.  It sounds like he doesn't want to make arrangements of notes that are pleasing to the ear.  That's about the gist of my argument.

Now, I'll apologize if my condemnation was over-harsh initially, because really, I just wanted to elucidate what I felt the differences were between the melodic sense of metal and that of atonal classical music, where once again I claim that metal is not truly atonal and tends to follow phrasing and melodies that make, in my estimation, far more sense than say the works of Schoenberg.  Not that I deny that alot of work and thought went into atonal composition; it just doesn't sound correct to my ears, and I believe that's because there are certain ways of approaching melody and phrasing that make sense almost intuitively.  There's a reason atonality wasn't part of Western musical tradition, nor even traditions which had different scalar systems and were clearly capable of writing such music before Western music had gotten around to even-tempered intonation.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 01, 2010, 06:19:09 PM
Where you hear wrongness and an unpleasant arrangement of notes, I hear a work of great ascetic beauty where every statement has been distilled to its most simple and primal expression. Now, I won't deny that there's a certain baffling quality to it, at least at first. It's like he's playing tricks with your mind, he's not giving you what you're expecting when you're expecting it, willfully postponing the reappearance of familiar patterns for a few bars throughout the entire work. There's a kind of playfulness to this game, and that's what drew me to the work initially (this is where I started my foray into atonality). That was before I could unravel all the different voices, put together all the melodic fragments interspersed and understand the rhythmical logic of the work. Once I did, that's when I truly realized that there's something to this music that goes way beyond my initial "well, this is kind of clever" assessment. Quite bluntly, I think the it's a masterpiece and there's very few works out there that feel more "right" to my ears, there's something pure and untainted to this music that I've only been able to hear elsewhere in the works of the great renaissance and early baroque masters.

On the second part of your point, that's definitely an interesting point and I don't disagree completely. I'll have to go into it in more depth at another time though, possibly later today.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 01, 2010, 07:12:53 PM
I don't listen to classical music, but that piece sounded pretty damn messed up. I'll try listening to it on shrooms or something though and see what happens.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 01, 2010, 10:55:51 PM
pretentious bullshit

Sorry, but I'm going to have to be overtly Metal about this.  The music is formless, pointless, and crap.  It has the same value and merit as "Modern Art" - none.  It reflects nothing natural, as it is entirely manufactured.  It is the aesthetic equivalent to scaffolding.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 01, 2010, 11:49:20 PM
I personally don't particularly care if you think that I'm a pretentious twat or whatever, but it'd be great if you could show if only a little bit of respect to all the men and women who defended this music throughout their lives. I'm not just talking about the composers here, I'm also thinking of the Schnabel, Karajan, Scherchen, Uchida, Mann and so many others.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 02, 2010, 12:31:28 AM
Why should he show them respect? He finds what they defended to be detestable.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 02, 2010, 03:21:04 AM
Because they're also without a shadow of a doubt some of the greatest interprets of the traditional Germanic repertoire, from Bach to Wagner through Beethoven. If you don't have any respect for Artur Schnabel, a friend of Schoenberg who used his own version of dodecaphonism in his compositions, you're missing out on his legendary Beethoven piano sonata cycle. If you don't have any respect for Karajan, you're missing out on his fabulous recording of Haydn's Die Schöpfung that has this near flawless cast. If you don't have any respect for Scherchen, you're missing out on a few of the most intense Beethoven symphony recordings, part of the first few performances where the conductor tried to see through the late-romantic veil that had obscured Beethoven's original vision by using the sharper tempi and the more down to earth orchestration that the composer originally imagined. Quite simply, if you don't like any of the names I mentioned, you don't like classical music and I don't know what I'm doing here.

Of course, you're perfectly free to claim that they were all misguided with their assessment of those composers, but think about something for a second. How could so many intelligent individuals, people that understood the essence of the great composers of the past so well and profoundly, be so wildly off the track when it comes to those compositions we're dealing with here? And I m talking about both composers and performers here, I'd wager that there was very few people in Webern's time who had more respect for Bach and the great composers of the Renaissance than Anton himself, as his fabulous orchestration of this 6 part ricercar exemplifies. How could one claim that a sane composer schooled in the music of the past masters, who was perfectly able to imitate the music of his idols as a youth, would eventually give it all up to write "formless, pointless" and "objectively, incomparably fucking awful" stuff instead? I didn't have the arrogance to do that when I was first introduced to this music, just like I didn't have the arrogance to write off D.R.I. and Ildjarn completely as unmusical noise when I first got into metal and hardcore punk. And guess what? I now love both Ildjarn and Webern all the same, but for wildly different reasons.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 02, 2010, 03:30:54 AM
Because they're also without a shadow of a doubt some of the greatest interprets of the traditional Germanic repertoire, from Bach to Wagner through Beethoven.
^Opinion.

Cargést hates their stuff <- fact.

In order to show respect, he would have to feign it, because he does not actually have it. Appeasing your own opinion is not a good reason for him to lie about his own.


Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 02, 2010, 03:40:13 AM
I have a mild respect for Karajan alone out of all of those people, because he's the only one I know (he conducted my favourite recording of Brahms's Fourth Symphony).  That respect has slightly diminished now that it has been claimed that he "defended" this jumble of notes whimsically referred to as "music".

Also, appeal to authority fallacy if ever I saw one.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't listen to and derive enjoyment from this stuff, I'm just saying that, in my Dictatorship, anything of this nature would result in immediate execution for all involved.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 02, 2010, 04:49:39 AM
I have a mild respect for Karajan alone out of all of those people, because he's the only one I know (he conducted my favourite recording of Brahms's Fourth Symphony).  That respect has slightly diminished now that it has been claimed that he "defended" this jumble of notes whimsically referred to as "music".

Also, appeal to authority fallacy if ever I saw one.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't listen to and derive enjoyment from this stuff, I'm just saying that, in my Dictatorship, anything of this nature would result in immediate execution for all involved.
If you dismiss my points as "pretentious bullshit", what else can I do? From that initial and second post of yours, it seemed clear to me that you wouldn't be ready to listen to what I had to say with regards to the point and the form of this composition (would I even be able to explain the latter properly? my knowledge of music is far more intuitive than theoretical, I know fuck all about musical composition), and thus I felt like I had to refer to people that you might have some respect for in order to have something to build on. If you're not willing to listen to what I say, I won't waste any time saying it, you know?

Because they're also without a shadow of a doubt some of the greatest interprets of the traditional Germanic repertoire, from Bach to Wagner through Beethoven.
^Opinion.
hah. now that's a rebuttal that I wasn't expecting on this website, one of the few internet bastion still defending objectivity in music. Although I did pick these names a bit randomly as they came to my mind,  I firmly believe that in my Dictatorship, everyone would be familiar with every and all of those performers, they're just that important when it comes to the world of recorded and concert music.

Re: Audiences hate modern classical music
October 02, 2010, 12:47:48 PM
I have a mild respect for Karajan alone out of all of those people, because he's the only one I know (he conducted my favourite recording of Brahms's Fourth Symphony).  That respect has slightly diminished now that it has been claimed that he "defended" this jumble of notes whimsically referred to as "music".

Also, appeal to authority fallacy if ever I saw one.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't listen to and derive enjoyment from this stuff, I'm just saying that, in my Dictatorship, anything of this nature would result in immediate execution for all involved.
If you dismiss my points as "pretentious bullshit", what else can I do? From that initial and second post of yours, it seemed clear to me that you wouldn't be ready to listen to what I had to say with regards to the point and the form of this composition (would I even be able to explain the latter properly? my knowledge of music is far more intuitive than theoretical, I know fuck all about musical composition), and thus I felt like I had to refer to people that you might have some respect for in order to have something to build on. If you're not willing to listen to what I say, I won't waste any time saying it, you know?

Cool story bro, if ever I read one.  I'm going to listen to some dissonant, "atonal", but generally structured Death Metal, now.