Pure Metal and ANUS

[Dead_Soul]

That still has nothing to do with my example. Master Of Reality is Black Sabbath's third record, and yes, they were better than most of their contemporaries(Vanilla Fudge, Blue Cheer, etc.)

I agree as I love Black Sabbath, far more than those bands.  However, tell that to a Vanilla Fudge or Blue Cheer fan and they will beg to differ.

And what on earth are you trying to address with your third comment?

I'm just throwing out that it's a real shame so many great acts never make it big and are forgotten.  I think that's why people developed the "washed-up" rocker cliche, to make light of the fact that great artists have fallen through no fault of their own.  Have you ever watched Anvil! The Story of Anvil?  It's a great film that deals with this issue, about how the metal band Anvil who were huge in the 80's, touring with Bon Jovi and Scorpions and Whitesnake, fell out of favor with a lot of the metal scene and were practically left for dead, but they kept soldiering on.  It's a really touching and excellent film that captures the true metal spirit in one of its best forms.

Anvil are a great metal band who did not deserve to get "washed-up," but they did, quality of their art aside.

Therein lies my point: I've never met a fan of either group.

I know that there are a lot of diamonds in the rough out there, but keep in mind that a lot of those so called "neglected masterpieces" were forgotten for a reason. There is no merit in the claim that because something is more obscure, it is of higher quality than an acknowledged classic.

In regards to the unsung artists that are worthy of attention, I think that quite a fem of them do eventually obtain some recognition from the wider community as a result of the internet, because it makes much more information available to a greater number of people. That is one of the reasons that sites like the metal archives and anus exist.

Also, what relevance does that comment have with our discussion, or even with our previous exchanges? It seemed like an outburst to me.

[Night of the Demon]

Therein lies my point: I've never met a fan of either group.

I have on the internet.  In person, not yet perhaps, but I don't ask every human I see.  But it is for sure that such people exist, literally thousands (91,000 Blue Cheer listeners on last fm), but they are scattered throughout a world of several billion.

I know that there are a lot of diamonds in the rough out there, but keep in mind that a lot of those so called "neglected masterpieces" were forgotten for a reason. There is no merit in the claim that because something is more obscure, it is of higher quality than an acknowledged classic.

Sure there's a reason: society and the music industry, and their trendy, fickle, ignorant nature.  As for the second statement, of course you are right.  You aren't talking to a walking "kvlt kid" stereotype, as I'm sure has been made clear by the opinions I have expressed.  I'm arguing that popularity and quality have an extremely weak correlation full of extreme outliers, not an inverse correlation.

In regards to the unsung artists that are worthy of attention, I think that quite a fem of them do eventually obtain some recognition from the wider community as a result of the internet, because it makes much more information available to a greater number of people. That is one of the reasons that sites like the metal archives and anus exist.

Yes, many do.  Manilla Road and Morbid Saint come to mind; I think the internet has really put together a strong, new fan base for both bands.

Also, what relevance does that comment have with our discussion, or even with our previous exchanges? It seemed like an outburst to me.

I was trying to make the point that "period pieces" are really not as common as one might think, and I was offering an explanation why bands would still fall out of public/community attention despite not being period pieces, demonstrating that the fact they are now unpopular does not imply they are a period piece; there is an alternative explanation, one I am ardent about and perhaps that is why my rhetoric sounded like an outburst.

[we hope you die]

So rather than a genuine attempt to get inside a concept and explore it in a unique way, leaving room for multiple interpretations, you'd choose a reactionary opinion of a particular event put into a rhyme over some stirring chords whose one merit is that it could apply to other events.

Seriously, Dismember, Bolt Thrower, Immolation, Emperor and Burzum all have lyrics that attempt to explore ideas such as war, life and death that not only narrates it, but empathizes with one confronted with these things. Your dismissal of my post is yet another example of you doing the precise thing you so heavily criticise earlier in the post. This time an outright negation of someone else's ideas with little explanation because it does not suite you.

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

This is far more sophisticated than, "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I done a poem."

[Night of the Demon]

So rather than a genuine attempt to get inside a concept and explore it in a unique way, leaving room for multiple interpretations, you'd choose a reactionary opinion of a particular event put into a rhyme over some stirring chords whose one merit is that it could apply to other events.

I'm giving concrete and specific examples for things I have already explained in more abstract ways, which is the appropriate direction once the general idea has been explained.

Seriously, Dismember, Bolt Thrower, Immolation, Emperor and Burzum all have lyrics that attempt to explore ideas such as war, life and death that not only narrates it, but empathizes with one confronted with these things. Your dismissal of my post is yet another example of you doing the precise thing you so heavily criticise earlier in the post. This time an outright negation of someone else's ideas with little explanation because it does not suite you.

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

This is far more sophisticated than, "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I done a poem."

No it's not.  It is nowhere near as sophisticated as a "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I've done a poem" take.  In fact, it is juvenile comparison.

These Bolt Thrower lyrics are a riddle of abstractions, too many abstractions and not enough concrete descriptions.  Have you ever heard of "show, not tell?"  Most songs will do some telling, but it is preferable to have some areas where physical objects are described that convey abstract ideas.  These lyrics are mediocre, sounding like amateur philosophy, because even if it was the artist's attempt to make a riddle of abstractions, it is a relatively boring one.  It's a lot of sentence fragments, mostly not even complete sentences or ideas, that are sloppily thrown together, with little sense of narration or chronology.  If that's what you like then that is what you like, but it is not very sophisticated.  There are no profound or thought-provoking ideas or comparisons introduced by the writer, just abstractions describing the confusion in war.

[Dead_Soul]

Read Montaigne for an understanding of how the West viewed "saluages".  People retained the same views as he explains until the 19th century, when it was finally accepted by the majority that Blacks and Native Americans weren't incredibly human-like animals.  Even then, this was principally a philosophical/scientific debate, until European Nationalism became extrospective.

Dead Soul, which assertion are you speaking of?

I certainly would level that criticism at all of Joyce's works that I've ever encountered (which is an unfortunately large number, given that Joyce was a side-topic of my study of "English" Literatue), though I was specifically referring to Ulysses, which must be the biggest load of tripe I've ever attempted to read.

My post quality reflects how much I want to troll people.  If you look back, I gave up on this poster/thread quite a while back.  I'm just feeding the fire, at the moment, waiting for someone to close it for absolute inanity.

That leaves out the "problem of the Jew".

You can't possibly mean that Portrait Of The Artist or Dubliners are jokes?

So rather than a genuine attempt to get inside a concept and explore it in a unique way, leaving room for multiple interpretations, you'd choose a reactionary opinion of a particular event put into a rhyme over some stirring chords whose one merit is that it could apply to other events.

I'm giving concrete and specific examples for things I have already explained in more abstract ways, which is the appropriate direction once the general idea has been explained.

Seriously, Dismember, Bolt Thrower, Immolation, Emperor and Burzum all have lyrics that attempt to explore ideas such as war, life and death that not only narrates it, but empathizes with one confronted with these things. Your dismissal of my post is yet another example of you doing the precise thing you so heavily criticise earlier in the post. This time an outright negation of someone else's ideas with little explanation because it does not suite you.

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

This is far more sophisticated than, "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I done a poem."

No it's not.  It is nowhere near as sophisticated as a "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I've done a poem" take.  In fact, it is juvenile comparison.

These Bolt Thrower lyrics are a riddle of abstractions, too many abstractions and not enough concrete descriptions.  Have you ever heard of "show, not tell?"  Most songs will do some telling, but it is preferable to have some areas where physical objects are described that convey abstract ideas.  These lyrics are mediocre, sounding like amateur philosophy, because even if it was the artist's attempt to make a riddle of abstractions, it is a relatively boring one.  It's a lot of sentence fragments, mostly not even complete sentences or ideas, that are sloppily thrown together, with little sense of narration or chronology.  If that's what you like then that is what you like, but it is not very sophisticated.  There are no profound or thought-provoking ideas or comparisons introduced by the writer, just abstractions describing the confusion in war.

It's not a string of abstractions, it's an allegory for the human condition in the modern world.

The first stanza is reminiscent of "You Can't Go Home Again" by Thomas Wolfe. We can't return to the innocence of childhood, or regress into a more primitive evolutionary stage, or reconstruct a better, more sane historical age long past. We must face our problems as adults. This responsibility is a heavier burden than most can bear in this era, so they deteriorate internally.

The second stanza describes the problem of nihilism in a nutshell. We as a people(I'm referring to Western Man) are unable to hold any strong convictions, and have convinced ourselves that we have nothing left to achieve as a culture. There is no consensus-we have nearly lapsed into the Hobbesian state of nature, that is, every man against all other men.

The third stanza tackles the decay of our moral standards and the hypocrisy that is a result thereof. It also hints ironically of our inability to apply the harsh lessons that the histories of other great civilizations that had fallen from grace could teach us (misfortune predictable/lessons learned before).

This quandary has entangled modern man for little more than two centuries, and in that time we have not come any closer to alleviating our confusion or unifying our disparate, atomized citizens into a functioning society, as the fourth stanza so aptly demonstrates.

The fifth stanza is a summary of the previous passages, and also serves as a reminder to the attentive listener that if these dire straits are not navigated prudently, it could spell the end of mankind.

[Dead_Soul]

BTW, how do you like any of the music that I recommended to you?

[Night of the Demon]

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

The first stanza is reminiscent of "You Can't Go Home Again" by Thomas Wolfe. We can't return to the innocence of childhood, or regress into a more primitive evolutionary stage, or reconstruct a better, more sane historical age long past. We must face our problems as adults. This responsibility is a heavier burden than most can bear in this era, so they deteriorate internally.

It is a collection of cliches.  "on the edge," "spirit...break," "no turning back."  They're really dry cliches too, a lot like Chuck Schuldiner lyrics during their later era.  You can put all sorts of profound ideas behind them, but all they really are: a string of abstractions.  Show; don't tell.  I would much rather hear a narrative showing how childhood cannot be traveled back to.  Let's express our ideas in creative ways, use concrete objects as symbolism, maybe even some elements of inventive wordplay.  Anyone can write lyrics like Bolt Thrower; it sounds like the "poetry" I wrote when I was 13, before any formal training in poetry or creative writing on a university level.  Now, maybe there's something about this primitive style that evokes raw emotions in some people, and I'll respect that, but let's not pretend it's more sophisticated.

It also sounds like you are reading deeper into these lyrics than the band intended; what was written was vague and can be interpreted in many ways, a lot having nothing to do with what you said.  lines like "Far from safe" are pretty insipid, too.  That has got to be one of the most dry, lifeless, awkward lines in this whole song.

The second stanza describes the problem of nihilism in a nutshell. We as a people(I'm referring to Western Man) are unable to hold any strong convictions, and have convinced ourselves that we have nothing left to achieve as a culture. There is no consensus-we have nearly lapsed into the Hobbesian state of nature, that is, every man against all other men.

Bolt Thrower's lyrics didn't say that.  All they said is that he is confused and doesn't know where to go.  You're really just trying to match it all up with your ideas and the ideas of thinkers you admire.  If Bolt thrower meant to say this, they did a poor job getting theiir message across in an accurate or interesting way.

The third stanza tackles the decay of our moral standards and the hypocrisy that is a result thereof. It also hints ironically of our inability to apply the harsh lessons that the histories of other great civilizations that had fallen from grace could teach us (misfortune predictable/lessons learned before).

Whatever happened to the whole ANUS idea of music not having a message?  If the music is saying all this, it sounds pretty preachy to me.  Oh, but no, these are merely ideas that you are imposing upon this poetry.  Well, I'm afraid anybody can do that with anything.  Your ideas, however, are not that complex.  They are typical, pessimistic tripe of little value to our civilization, at least as anything disguised to be new.

This quandary has entangled modern man for little more than two centuries, and in that time we have not come any closer to alleviating our confusion or unifying our disparate, atomized citizens into a functioning society, as the fourth stanza so aptly demonstrates.

It's really just a victim of all my prior criticisms.

The fifth stanza is a summary of the previous passages, and also serves as a reminder to the attentive listener that if these dire straits are not navigated prudently, it could spell the end of mankind.

I would much rather have had an artistic, juicy narrative poem than this mediocre philosophy.  That's a good job Bolt Thrower, leaving me emotionally and intellectually unstimulated, and unimpressed.  I have been brought to tears from lyrics, had chills run down my spine, had orgasms, had spells of love and fits of rage, been moved to my knees... this is just, well, your average death metal lyrics.

This, by the way, is not my first exposure to Bolt Thrower.  I have always thought they were a band with far better music than lyrics.  Bolt thrower make some good metal, but the lyrics, like a majority of death metal, are very weak when compared to heavy metal.  I know my criticisms were harsh and unrestrained, but I feel compelled to get it across that I do not like these lyrics, or like the ideas you infer from them, and I find it very aesthetically unappealing, boring, and dull.  It's way too vague, tailored with the integrity of a fortune teller.

[Night of the Demon]

BTW, how do you like any of the music that I recommended to you?

I'm exploring that band Absu you mentioned.  I tend to focus heavily on one thing at a time, so I'll probably check out more bands on your list over the course of a week or so.  I definitely like the way this band sounds and the epic qualities; it brings Bathory to mind.

I already knew a handful of the bands in the list, stuff like Morbid Angel and Suffocation.  I'm going back to some of those too for relistens.  It's been a while.  I got into metal through death metal.  The first metal band I ever listened to (not counting things like hearing Metallica on the radio) was Decapitated.  I worked my way backward into Vader, Death, Slayer, Napalm Death, but found as I worked back that the strongest metal material was in the heavy/speed metal style.  I was probably only an "extreme metal head" for a year before I just abandoned it mostly;  I was really deeply into it, but by about age 16 I felt it lacked the same strength as other metal styles.  So yeah, that's my story and how I ended up in this situation and view on metal.  I'm trying to reconnect a bit with exactly what I saw in the metal I listened to when I was 14 (I'm 19 now).

[Athanasius contra mundum]

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

The first stanza is reminiscent of "You Can't Go Home Again" by Thomas Wolfe. We can't return to the innocence of childhood, or regress into a more primitive evolutionary stage, or reconstruct a better, more sane historical age long past. We must face our problems as adults. This responsibility is a heavier burden than most can bear in this era, so they deteriorate internally.

It is a collection of cliches.  "on the edge," "spirit...break," "no turning back."  They're really dry cliches too, a lot like Chuck Schuldiner lyrics during their later era.  You can put all sorts of profound ideas behind them, but all they really are: a string of abstractions.  Show; don't tell.  I would much rather hear a narrative showing how childhood cannot be traveled back to.  Let's express our ideas in creative ways, use concrete objects as symbolism, maybe even some elements of inventive wordplay.  Anyone can write lyrics like Bolt Thrower; it sounds like the "poetry" I wrote when I was 13, before any formal training in poetry or creative writing on a university level.  Now, maybe there's something about this primitive style that evokes raw emotions in some people, and I'll respect that, but let's not pretend it's more sophisticated.

It also sounds like you are reading deeper into these lyrics than the band intended; what was written was vague and can be interpreted in many ways, a lot having nothing to do with what you said.  lines like "Far from safe" are pretty insipid, too.  That has got to be one of the most dry, lifeless, awkward lines in this whole song.

The second stanza describes the problem of nihilism in a nutshell. We as a people(I'm referring to Western Man) are unable to hold any strong convictions, and have convinced ourselves that we have nothing left to achieve as a culture. There is no consensus-we have nearly lapsed into the Hobbesian state of nature, that is, every man against all other men.

Bolt Thrower's lyrics didn't say that.  All they said is that he is confused and doesn't know where to go.  You're really just trying to match it all up with your ideas and the ideas of thinkers you admire.  If Bolt thrower meant to say this, they did a poor job getting theiir message across in an accurate or interesting way.

The third stanza tackles the decay of our moral standards and the hypocrisy that is a result thereof. It also hints ironically of our inability to apply the harsh lessons that the histories of other great civilizations that had fallen from grace could teach us (misfortune predictable/lessons learned before).

Whatever happened to the whole ANUS idea of music not having a message?  If the music is saying all this, it sounds pretty preachy to me.  Oh, but no, these are merely ideas that you are imposing upon this poetry.  Well, I'm afraid anybody can do that with anything.  Your ideas, however, are not that complex.  They are typical, pessimistic tripe of little value to our civilization, at least as anything disguised to be new.

This quandary has entangled modern man for little more than two centuries, and in that time we have not come any closer to alleviating our confusion or unifying our disparate, atomized citizens into a functioning society, as the fourth stanza so aptly demonstrates.

It's really just a victim of all my prior criticisms.

The fifth stanza is a summary of the previous passages, and also serves as a reminder to the attentive listener that if these dire straits are not navigated prudently, it could spell the end of mankind.

I would much rather have had an artistic, juicy narrative poem than this mediocre philosophy.  That's a good job Bolt Thrower, leaving me emotionally and intellectually unstimulated, and unimpressed.  I have been brought to tears from lyrics, had chills run down my spine, had orgasms, had spells of love and fits of rage, been moved to my knees... this is just, well, your average death metal lyrics.

This, by the way, is not my first exposure to Bolt Thrower.  I have always thought they were a band with far better music than lyrics.  Bolt thrower make some good metal, but the lyrics, like a majority of death metal, are very weak when compared to heavy metal.  I know my criticisms were harsh and unrestrained, but I feel compelled to get it across that I do not like these lyrics, or like the ideas you infer from them, and I find it very aesthetically unappealing, boring, and dull.  It's way too vague, tailored with the integrity of a fortune teller.

Your criticisms didn't tell me much more then "I disagree".

[Night of the Demon]

Yeah, except I explained why in detail.

[Dead_Soul]

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

The first stanza is reminiscent of "You Can't Go Home Again" by Thomas Wolfe. We can't return to the innocence of childhood, or regress into a more primitive evolutionary stage, or reconstruct a better, more sane historical age long past. We must face our problems as adults. This responsibility is a heavier burden than most can bear in this era, so they deteriorate internally.

It is a collection of cliches.  "on the edge," "spirit...break," "no turning back."  They're really dry cliches too, a lot like Chuck Schuldiner lyrics during their later era.  You can put all sorts of profound ideas behind them, but all they really are: a string of abstractions.  Show; don't tell.  I would much rather hear a narrative showing how childhood cannot be traveled back to.  Let's express our ideas in creative ways, use concrete objects as symbolism, maybe even some elements of inventive wordplay.  Anyone can write lyrics like Bolt Thrower; it sounds like the "poetry" I wrote when I was 13, before any formal training in poetry or creative writing on a university level.  Now, maybe there's something about this primitive style that evokes raw emotions in some people, and I'll respect that, but let's not pretend it's more sophisticated.

It also sounds like you are reading deeper into these lyrics than the band intended; what was written was vague and can be interpreted in many ways, a lot having nothing to do with what you said.  lines like "Far from safe" are pretty insipid, too.  That has got to be one of the most dry, lifeless, awkward lines in this whole song.

The second stanza describes the problem of nihilism in a nutshell. We as a people(I'm referring to Western Man) are unable to hold any strong convictions, and have convinced ourselves that we have nothing left to achieve as a culture. There is no consensus-we have nearly lapsed into the Hobbesian state of nature, that is, every man against all other men.

Bolt Thrower's lyrics didn't say that.  All they said is that he is confused and doesn't know where to go.  You're really just trying to match it all up with your ideas and the ideas of thinkers you admire.  If Bolt thrower meant to say this, they did a poor job getting theiir message across in an accurate or interesting way.

The third stanza tackles the decay of our moral standards and the hypocrisy that is a result thereof. It also hints ironically of our inability to apply the harsh lessons that the histories of other great civilizations that had fallen from grace could teach us (misfortune predictable/lessons learned before).

Whatever happened to the whole ANUS idea of music not having a message?  If the music is saying all this, it sounds pretty preachy to me.  Oh, but no, these are merely ideas that you are imposing upon this poetry.  Well, I'm afraid anybody can do that with anything.  Your ideas, however, are not that complex.  They are typical, pessimistic tripe of little value to our civilization, at least as anything disguised to be new.

This quandary has entangled modern man for little more than two centuries, and in that time we have not come any closer to alleviating our confusion or unifying our disparate, atomized citizens into a functioning society, as the fourth stanza so aptly demonstrates.

It's really just a victim of all my prior criticisms.

The fifth stanza is a summary of the previous passages, and also serves as a reminder to the attentive listener that if these dire straits are not navigated prudently, it could spell the end of mankind.

I would much rather have had an artistic, juicy narrative poem than this mediocre philosophy.  That's a good job Bolt Thrower, leaving me emotionally and intellectually unstimulated, and unimpressed.  I have been brought to tears from lyrics, had chills run down my spine, had orgasms, had spells of love and fits of rage, been moved to my knees... this is just, well, your average death metal lyrics.

This, by the way, is not my first exposure to Bolt Thrower.  I have always thought they were a band with far better music than lyrics.  Bolt thrower make some good metal, but the lyrics, like a majority of death metal, are very weak when compared to heavy metal.  I know my criticisms were harsh and unrestrained, but I feel compelled to get it across that I do not like these lyrics, or like the ideas you infer from them, and I find it very aesthetically unappealing, boring, and dull.  It's way too vague, tailored with the integrity of a fortune teller.

I wouldn't compare them to Chuck's lyrics; they're much less contrived. They also conform very nicely to the mood of the song.

I realize that this couldn't be mistaken for anything by Yeats or Stevens, but as you've said, it evokes some pretty 'heavy' sentiments.

Reread this passage.
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

I was just enunciating my views of the difficulties our civilization is up against. Would you not agree that our people would do well to embrace their masculinity, and have more strength of conviction, instead of wallowing in their own spiritual filth as they do now? It would seem that the band also shares this perspective, though they are much farther to the left than I am politically.

I disagree; I feel that awkward and/or boorish lyrics have always plagued heavy metal, especially when compared to the original inspirations(Milton, Nietzsche, Lovecraft, Goethe, Byron, Homer, etc.). There are exceptions, of course, but it's a failing of the genre. The strength of the music has usually made up for this foundational flaw in my estimation.

I think that you would get the most out of Tara and The Sun Of Tiphareth, as far as Absu goes.

I came in from the other direction. My best friend let me borrow "Stained Class" and "Powerslave" when I was fourteen, and I was hooked. Later, when I was seventeen, I was looking at Obituary reviews when I happened upon this site's article on "Cause Of Death". I've never looked back(I just turned 21 three weeks ago).

Edit: You were right. I would add that the lyrics also follow a very conventional and unchallenging rhyme scheme (AABB).

[Night of the Demon]

I wouldn't compare them to Chuck's lyrics; they're much less contrived. They also conform very nicely to the mood of the song.

The major difference to me would seem to be that Chuck's lyrics are more optimistic; both sound somewhat contrived to me, like the writer is trying very hard to keep the mood as flat and solid as a rock in BT's case.

I realize that this couldn't be mistakened for anything by Yeats or Stevens, but as you've said, it evokes some pretty 'heavy' sentiments.

Reread this passage.
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

I was just enunciating my views of the difficulties our civilization is up against. Would you not agree that our people would do well to embrace their masculinity, and have more strength of conviction, instead of wallowing in their own spiritual filth as they do now? It would seem that the band also shares this perspective, though they are much farther to the left than I am politically.

Yes, we could use some more strength and masculinity in a lot of our world's population.  But you know, I'm a Manowar fan, so I hear that message all the time in a majority of their songs, and it conveys the message a lot more overtly and stronger (a message for strength should be bold; the medium should match the message).  I have this:

Rip their flesh and their hearts
Stab them in the eyes
Rape their women as they cry
Kill their servants- burn their homes
Until there is no blood left to spill
By divine right hail and kill!

Now to me, that gets across the message that we need to jack up the testosterone level in society more so than Bolt Thrower's empty abstractions.  In fact, when I read those BT lyrics, I thought they were pacifistic, urging people avoid confrontation by showing a soldier's confusion and panic.

I disagree; I feel that awkward and/or boorish lyrics have always plagued heavy metal, especially when compared to the original inspirations(Milton, Nietzsche, Goethe, Byron, Homer, etc.). There are exceptions, of course, but it's a failing of the genre. The strength of the music has usually made up for this foundational flaw in my estimation.

I think you'll find an equal amount of awkward and boorish lyrics in death metal.  If these lyrics were sung, the flaws would be more obvious and irritating than when they are written and growled.

I came in from the other direction. My best friend let me borrow "Stained Class" and "Powerslave" when I was fourteen, and I was hooked. Later, when I was seventeen, I was looking at Obituary reviews when I happened upon this site's article on "Cause Of Death". I've never looked back(I just turned 21 three weeks ago).

Yeah, it's interesting how people are different like that.  You know, now this debate has gone so far from the original subject that I am not sure exactly what to trace this all back to.  The best conclusion that I can offer is that A.  Neither type of metal can be objectively said to have superiority over the other, because people like you and I will argue for ages.  It is all subjective. B.  "Metal" is a word, a word that different people have different ideas about and apply to different music, but it's to be expected and taken for granted that the people from my perspective are going to see extreme metal as not the best representation, especially when we have all the pride of coming first, being more influential, having all the "circus" to show off, and having a larger army.

[we hope you die]

You could not be more wrong; Bolt Thrower's lyrics are a narration of war. Taken as a whole they range from a detatched description to an in depth attempt to explore the philosophy of war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RCizYwLL-E&feature=related

Those Manowar lyrics do absolutely nothing to strengthen your position here. Perhaps BT are not the best example of masculinity in metal, but you can find many bands on the anus home page that display a much more sophisticated version of this. I have taken a very small part in this thread, but on reading it I have found none of your points convincing, I'm sure you feel likewise about the points put to you. Can we not reach a stage where we agree to disagree? Because its got to the stage where each post is a reformulation of arguments already made. If you still insist on having the last word then be my guest, but it won't do your argument any good for someone reading over this thread.

[Night of the Demon]

Sure, we can agree to disagree.  Music is a subjective experience; everybody likes different music.  I see it the same way as you as far as that is concerned.

[indjaseemun]

To sum everything up: We ALL love heavy metal here, I can safely state that. Just we tend to enjoy extreme metal like, with 3 times more intensity. I think there was a lot of pointless discussion wich made ANUS members act too defensive. It's more simple like, you like heavy metal, ok we like extreme metal best, so let's compare some songs, you post 4 songs for youtube videos and we choose 4 extreme metal songs and compare them and write why we think wich is best. How can we discuss music talkin endlessly about a bunch of stuff that's not even closely related to it.

Let the OP post 4 youtube links with what he believes is superior metal, and let ourselves post each 1 link until we reach 4 with our songs and then judge why we like each song etc.

The result shall be the awesomeness of death/black metal.

I'll start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kZI7b7wJA