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Pure Metal and ANUS

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 02:44:08 AM
Their attitude.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 02:53:03 AM

Ultimately, you've come to this website to state your perception, and then be absolutely closed-minded when the rebuttal comes.  Various members, myself included, have explained, brilliantly, the facts.  You have chosen to ignore these facts in favour of your life-affirming "opinions".  That's not very Metal of you, is it?

Facts?  What facts? I got a whole mess of opinions from you.  I used history and logic, while you people used your redefinitions.  What I have done is as metal as it gets.  Anyone with eyes can see the way I act and think is a hell of a lot closer to a figure that is considered a poster for heavy metal, let's say Joey DeMaio, than what ANUS spouts.  You speak of loyalty to God and country, but how about loyalty to the Kings?  Manowar are the Kings of Metal.  I can easily turn that argument around on you, see?

You people tell me to find answers for myself, and that you can't give them to me.  Huh.  I think they don't exist.
Very well then. I'll quote all the times you either merely gave your own opinion or made a factual or logical error.

Before I start, though, I'd like to add that I respect the members of the band (Manowar) much more than I enjoy their music. It's interesting to note that a Wikiquotes search of Manowar brings up many statements that are indistinguishable from your own. It would seem that you are merely regurgitating the thoughts of the band, instead of following their example and thinking for yourself.

"I'm prepared to die for metal. Are you?" Of course. Were The People's Republic Of China to extend their sovereignty to the U.S. and make the enjoyment of Blessed Are The Sick or Pierced From Within punishable by death, I would gladly take my seat in the electric chair.   

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 03:32:19 AM
Their attitude.

And what about their attitude is not metal?  I think both bands are far removed from pre-metal rock in attitude.


Ultimately, you've come to this website to state your perception, and then be absolutely closed-minded when the rebuttal comes.  Various members, myself included, have explained, brilliantly, the facts.  You have chosen to ignore these facts in favour of your life-affirming "opinions".  That's not very Metal of you, is it?

Facts?  What facts? I got a whole mess of opinions from you.  I used history and logic, while you people used your redefinitions.  What I have done is as metal as it gets.  Anyone with eyes can see the way I act and think is a hell of a lot closer to a figure that is considered a poster for heavy metal, let's say Joey DeMaio, than what ANUS spouts.  You speak of loyalty to God and country, but how about loyalty to the Kings?  Manowar are the Kings of Metal.  I can easily turn that argument around on you, see?

You people tell me to find answers for myself, and that you can't give them to me.  Huh.  I think they don't exist.
Very well then. I'll quote all the times you either merely gave your own opinion or made a factual or logical error.

Before I start, though, I'd like to add that I respect the members of the band (Manowar) much more than I enjoy their music. It's interesting to note that a Wikiquotes search of Manowar brings up many statements that are indistinguishable from your own. It would seem that you are merely regurgitating the thoughts of the band, instead of following their example and thinking for yourself.

"I'm prepared to die for metal. Are you?" Of course. Were The People's Republic Of China to extend their sovereignty to the U.S. and make the enjoyment of Blessed Are The Sick or Pierced From Within punishable by death, I would gladly take my seat in the electric chair.   

Agreeing with points is not equal to not thinking for yourself.  At times, many here sounded like they were just regurgitating the thoughts of ANUS.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 05:52:13 AM
Power metal and doom metal, yes, are amongst the ultimate expressions of metal.  They are new faces of metal that developed on their own, although I personally would not argue that makes them superior to heavy metal, as metal is a genre with many faces united by one head.

When I say heavy metal developed out of rock, I mean that it developed out of a handful of genres known as hard rock, acid rock, blues rock, etc.  It is still a type of rock, even though it developed out of "rock," because by "rock" I mean the rock genres that have the word "rock" in their names.  There really are no rock "trappings" in metal, because all metal is rock music.
This is why you dont' get it. You think metal is a type of rock. We think metal is its own genre. Throughout this entire thread you've been stating that your idea of metal is more pure than ours, which is ridiculous - your argument is that an object which is simply a modified form of something else, is somehow more distinct than an object that exists as its own entity. You have handily ignored the whole explanation I gave you for how seeing metal as a separate entity could only be achieved through the influx of an outsider that caused it to sever some of its ancestral ties - a tactic which will become more obvious the longer this post gets.

Prog has been embraced by metal, as can be seen in bands like Fates Warning, Queensryche, and Dream Theater.
Did you read my response? This mentioning of progressive rock's influence in metal is completely irrelevant, as nobody here has denied or will deny it.

There are still new glam bands emerging even to this day.  The reason why numerically so many more metal bands incorporate punk into their music is because it is technically very easy to play the necessities for that genre, so more bands jump on it.  You could never have a huge, healthy prog scene of hundreds of bands in a small location, because the level of technical skill is not there.  With punk/metal, this is very easy.
There are still glam bands emerging to this day - there are also still '70s rock throwback bands, polka bands, ska bands, and New Wave bands emerging to this day. What difference does that make - did you read my response? Their popularity -and thus their influence- is gone. There are going to be a few fans of everything, but their efforts matter only to people of like mind and thus they do nothing more than preach to the choir.

Worse, your dismissal of the absolutely OVERARCHING, to this day, acceptance of punk-influenced styles of metal as being due to the simplistic nature of music only shows how willing you are to ignore evidence in order to maintain your already-decided upon vision of reality. Black and death metal have both created music that blasts complexity - and, unlike in your favorite genres, this is not something limited to a niche of a few acts. Hundreds of acts in both styles adopt very advanced compositional structures. This is not even esoteric knowledge -everybody who has even a passing knowledge of death and black metal is familiar with at least a couple of such acts- which is why your claim that their popularity is due to their simplicity is so ridiculous it illuminates nothing but your own denial of reality.

You also seem to mistake metal rejecting metal/punk with punk rejecting punk/metal, referring to the DRI/Slayer issue.
No, you mistook evidence against your argument as being evidence against your opponent's argument. Besides, mistaken or not, the referenced verbal exchange has nothing to do with what I think - did you read my response?

I love metal for more reasons than just testosterone or fun, by the way, as you seem to imply.  Although, technically, you could argue everything is fun, including all extreme metal.
I was implying that it is AN aspect of why you like the music you do - not the only one. Normally this would not even be worth noting, but it was pointed out because, by contrasting it to your audience's reasons for liking the music they do, it served to illustrate a vital difference between the two camps.

As for the end of your post about metal being the "anti-rock," I will let you know that you only see metal that way because of punk.  If you listened to pure heavy metal, like power or doom or heavy metal, you would see that is not true.  Punk tried to move away from rock and took some of metal under its wing.
Seriously, DID YOU READ MY RESPONSE? I already KNOW that "I"(in quotes because I was describing the attitude of many people here, not myself - which you would know if you read my response) see metal that way because of punk. I also explained why this is, what caused it, and what the justification for it is. Which is far more than you've done so far. So far, your argument against this place's view of metal consists of very little more than "I disagree." Convincing.

And Jesus fucking Christ. Again with the assumption of ignorance. I listen to power and doom, and no, it is not a magical psych beacon that inevitably leads to your accepted worldview. Your opinions are based on certain experiences, but those same experiences do not have only one outcome.

As for the truest forms of metal existing before it was labeled, all I can say is that there is no logical reason to assume that because something is not named, that it does not exist.
Likewise, there is no logical reason to assume that something has come into its truest form upon being labeled.

As for saying Darkthrone is more metal, I would disagree, since Black Sabbath defined what heavy metal is.  You can be a revisionist and say that other new stuff is more metal, but it will not affect people like me and how we see things.
You've already made it clear that NOTHING can change your mind, and that when presented with evidence you dismiss it as opinion, and even go so far as to state "I am not expressing my opinion, I am revealing truths of which you all are sorely ignorant." You're expressing pride in how stubborn you can be. I'm sure I'm not the first to have ever said this to you, but despite illusions to the contrary, it takes a lot more strength to change yourself than it does to stay the same. If you're already that set in your ways, why are you asking for alternative points of view? Do you think you're going to convert anyone - I'm guessing that, since you do seem to view stubborness as a valuable quality, it must be so because it is rare. Do you really think that your refusal to change is unique?

It is hipsters who find people like Dee Snider corny.
Up until this bit, along with the part immediately above, I was convinced of your sincerity. Now I do suspect trolling. Dee Snider, and the rest of the glam movement that followed, always was hipster junk.

Well, then that's the end of it.  I embrace metal, you embrace an evolution from metal and punk.  Is there much else to say?  I just wanted to let everyone know that they are not as metal as they think for listening to death and black bands all day.  If all I accomplished is furthering the divide between our parties, then I am glad for that.
No - you embrace a type of rock. You do not embrace a separate genre called metal. You have already admitted this.

This is simple math of 100% versus less than 100%.  It's barely math; it's counting.

Proto-mammals and humans can all be lumped under a kingdom as "animals," just as metal can be lumped into the kingdom of "rock."
Mm, but you see, to us animals = ALL music, primates = rock, great apes = styles of metal, and humans = "metal" as an idea. You're trying to tell us that a chimpanzee is less human than a lemur because he has distanced himself more than the lemur from the tree from which they all came - and thus when you say human you really mean something else. You are saying, essentially, that the lemur is the truer form of primate because it is the least distanced from its origins - except that you use the word "human" when describing primates.

You want pure metal with less visible "rocking" in it?  Okay, listen to some doom or power metal.  What is your argument for Candlemass or Hammerfall being less metal than Slayer?
Musical strucutre - Candlemass is much closer to the verse-chorus style of music in rock than Slayer is, and its melodic progressions are also more rock-derived(I can't personally speak for Hammerfall, having never listened to it, but I doubt the story changes much). It is very simple, your continued attempts at validating your confusion notwithstanding - the punk element in Slayer lowers the rock element, and in so doing, allows the METAL element to become more prominent by showing that, even through a different lens(punk instead of rock), the same ideas can be highlighted. By doing this, it gives a clearer understanding of what metal is, because even when filtered through a different understanding, common themes stand. This led to something that Slayer in its best moments still only hinted at: the nigh-complete elimination of any rock elements whatsoever in death and black metal.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 07:41:01 AM
Power metal and doom metal, yes, are amongst the ultimate expressions of metal.  They are new faces of metal that developed on their own, although I personally would not argue that makes them superior to heavy metal, as metal is a genre with many faces united by one head.

When I say heavy metal developed out of rock, I mean that it developed out of a handful of genres known as hard rock, acid rock, blues rock, etc.  It is still a type of rock, even though it developed out of "rock," because by "rock" I mean the rock genres that have the word "rock" in their names.  There really are no rock "trappings" in metal, because all metal is rock music.
This is why you dont' get it. You think metal is a type of rock. We think metal is its own genre. Throughout this entire thread you've been stating that your idea of metal is more pure than ours, which is ridiculous - your argument is that an object which is simply a modified form of something else, is somehow more distinct than an object that exists as its own entity. You have handily ignored the whole explanation I gave you for how seeing metal as a separate entity could only be achieved through the influx of an outsider that caused it to sever some of its ancestral ties - a tactic which will become more obvious the longer this post gets.

Whether or not something is rock is arbitrary semantics.  Whether or not a person chooses to lump metal under larger, semantic categories is irrelevant.  Can't you see that calling it rock or not is irrelavant to how metal is what it is?
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Prog has been embraced by metal, as can be seen in bands like Fates Warning, Queensryche, and Dream Theater.
Did you read my response? This mentioning of progressive rock's influence in metal is completely irrelevant, as nobody here has denied or will deny it.

My point is, why does punk lay claim to the title of the genre that can take metal places, when in reality any genre can?
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There are still new glam bands emerging even to this day.  The reason why numerically so many more metal bands incorporate punk into their music is because it is technically very easy to play the necessities for that genre, so more bands jump on it.  You could never have a huge, healthy prog scene of hundreds of bands in a small location, because the level of technical skill is not there.  With punk/metal, this is very easy.
There are still glam bands emerging to this day - there are also still '70s rock throwback bands, polka bands, ska bands, and New Wave bands emerging to this day. What difference does that make - did you read my response? Their popularity -and thus their influence- is gone. There are going to be a few fans of everything, but their efforts matter only to people of like mind and thus they do nothing more than preach to the choir.

The popularity is still significant, with many new albums in those genres breaking into the mainstream and appearing on their charts.  That actually makes them more popular than extreme metal.  Also, even if they were unpopular, who cares?  Since when has art been a popularity contest?  Does losing most popularity and influence make the art less valid?  If 300 years from now metal is almost forgotten, would that mean it's not significant?

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Worse, your dismissal of the absolutely OVERARCHING, to this day, acceptance of punk-influenced styles of metal as being due to the simplistic nature of music only shows how willing you are to ignore evidence in order to maintain your already-decided upon vision of reality. Black and death metal have both created music that blasts complexity - and, unlike in your favorite genres, this is not something limited to a niche of a few acts. Hundreds of acts in both styles adopt very advanced compositional structures. This is not even esoteric knowledge -everybody who has even a passing knowledge of death and black metal is familiar with at least a couple of such acts- which is why your claim that their popularity is due to their simplicity is so ridiculous it illuminates nothing but your own denial of reality.

You cannot follow words.  I said "easy to play the necessities."  You can make a passable punk/metal band a lot easier than a power metal one.  Listen to Death/Mantas demos; it is not very hard to play that kind of music.

A vast majority of extreme metal is technically simple.  You could show me a few hundred complex and technical bands, but it would be a fraction of the thousands of minimalist and simple or sloppy ones, who have earned some significant level of recognition.
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You also seem to mistake metal rejecting metal/punk with punk rejecting punk/metal, referring to the DRI/Slayer issue.
No, you mistook evidence against your argument as being evidence against your opponent's argument. Besides, mistaken or not, the referenced verbal exchange has nothing to do with what I think - did you read my response?

Yes I read your response.  Nice way of backing out when you figure what you spurted out made no sense.
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I love metal for more reasons than just testosterone or fun, by the way, as you seem to imply.  Although, technically, you could argue everything is fun, including all extreme metal.
I was implying that it is AN aspect of why you like the music you do - not the only one. Normally this would not even be worth noting, but it was pointed out because, by contrasting it to your audience's reasons for liking the music they do, it served to illustrate a vital difference between the two camps.

I agree with you.  Nothing else to say here.
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As for the end of your post about metal being the "anti-rock," I will let you know that you only see metal that way because of punk.  If you listened to pure heavy metal, like power or doom or heavy metal, you would see that is not true.  Punk tried to move away from rock and took some of metal under its wing.
Seriously, DID YOU READ MY RESPONSE? I already KNOW that "I"(in quotes because I was describing the attitude of many people here, not myself - which you would know if you read my response) see metal that way because of punk. I also explained why this is, what caused it, and what the justification for it is. Which is far more than you've done so far. So far, your argument against this place's view of metal consists of very little more than "I disagree." Convincing.

And Jesus fucking Christ. Again with the assumption of ignorance. I listen to power and doom, and no, it is not a magical psych beacon that inevitably leads to your accepted worldview. Your opinions are based on certain experiences, but those same experiences do not have only one outcome.

Okay, you think that punk somehow helped separate metal from rock and made it its own entity, and that no other genre has done this for metal.  Okay, I could say I feel that way about any genre as an opinion, so that basically leaves you in a state of just having an opinion.
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As for the truest forms of metal existing before it was labeled, all I can say is that there is no logical reason to assume that because something is not named, that it does not exist.
Likewise, there is no logical reason to assume that something has come into its truest form upon being labeled.

It wasn't.  "Heavy metal" started as a slang for any heavy rock bands.  It was used for Cream, Sir Lord Baltimore, Steppenwolf,  Deep Purple, and even Aerosmith.  The metal community later decided that something new actually started with, specifically, Black Sabbath.
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As for saying Darkthrone is more metal, I would disagree, since Black Sabbath defined what heavy metal is.  You can be a revisionist and say that other new stuff is more metal, but it will not affect people like me and how we see things.
You've already made it clear that NOTHING can change your mind, and that when presented with evidence you dismiss it as opinion, and even go so far as to state "I am not expressing my opinion, I am revealing truths of which you all are sorely ignorant." You're expressing pride in how stubborn you can be. I'm sure I'm not the first to have ever said this to you, but despite illusions to the contrary, it takes a lot more strength to change yourself than it does to stay the same. If you're already that set in your ways, why are you asking for alternative points of view? Do you think you're going to convert anyone - I'm guessing that, since you do seem to view stubborness as a valuable quality, it must be so because it is rare. Do you really think that your refusal to change is unique?

This isn't a pride issue.  What you're doing is calling the kettle black.  You are, from a neutral point of view, just as stubborn as I- you have not backed down in your beliefs, have you?  That puts us on the same level.
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It is hipsters who find people like Dee Snider corny.
Up until this bit, along with the part immediately above, I was convinced of your sincerity. Now I do suspect trolling. Dee Snider, and the rest of the glam movement that followed, always was hipster junk.

Well, hipsters did not even exist in the 70's.  There have been other cultures with the same name in the past, but they are not the same subculture you are referring to.
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Well, then that's the end of it.  I embrace metal, you embrace an evolution from metal and punk.  Is there much else to say?  I just wanted to let everyone know that they are not as metal as they think for listening to death and black bands all day.  If all I accomplished is furthering the divide between our parties, then I am glad for that.
No - you embrace a type of rock. You do not embrace a separate genre called metal. You have already admitted this.

It's the same music with a different name; what matters is the sound.  Who cares if I want to call it rock or not?
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This is simple math of 100% versus less than 100%.  It's barely math; it's counting.

Proto-mammals and humans can all be lumped under a kingdom as "animals," just as metal can be lumped into the kingdom of "rock."
Mm, but you see, to us animals = ALL music, primates = rock, great apes = styles of metal, and humans = "metal" as an idea. You're trying to tell us that a chimpanzee is less human than a lemur because he has distanced himself more than the lemur from the tree from which they all came - and thus when you say human you really mean something else. You are saying, essentially, that the lemur is the truer form of primate because it is the least distanced from its origins - except that you use the word "human" when describing primates.

You seem to imply from this, from my understanding, that a band like Black Sabbath is proto-metal.  Contrarily, I would call a band like Deep Purple or Led zeppelin proto-metal, just on the border of being metal and taking on its earliest traits.
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You want pure metal with less visible "rocking" in it?  Okay, listen to some doom or power metal.  What is your argument for Candlemass or Hammerfall being less metal than Slayer?
Musical strucutre - Candlemass is much closer to the verse-chorus style of music in rock than Slayer is, and its melodic progressions are also more rock-derived(I can't personally speak for Hammerfall, having never listened to it, but I doubt the story changes much). It is very simple, your continued attempts at validating your confusion notwithstanding - the punk element in Slayer lowers the rock element, and in so doing, allows the METAL element to become more prominent by showing that, even through a different lens(punk instead of rock), the same ideas can be highlighted. By doing this, it gives a clearer understanding of what metal is, because even when filtered through a different understanding, common themes stand. This led to something that Slayer in its best moments still only hinted at: the nigh-complete elimination of any rock elements whatsoever in death and black metal.

Slayer is still a lot of verse-chorus, and there is plenty of heavy metal without verse-chorus every song.  I don't think punk has anything much to do with abandoning verse-chorus.

Also, that new lens could be any other genre: look! The metal elements shine through the prog influence! Punk is just another rock genre, anyway.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 07:57:43 AM
ITT, Punk is a conscious organism which makes decisions.

I call an end to this bullshit.  Istaros has provided more than adequate response.  Nought of the Demon is simply picking and choosing parts of people's points that he'd like to disagree with, and is then going about telling us that he disagrees, on the grounds that we don't know what we're talking about (when, clearly, we do, given that the weight of factual evidence is stacked highly in our favour).  I was the first to say it, and hopefully I'll be the last to say it: troll.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 08:20:04 AM
ITT, Punk is a conscious organism which makes decisions.

I call an end to this bullshit.  Istaros has provided more than adequate response.  Nought of the Demon is simply picking and choosing parts of people's points that he'd like to disagree with, and is then going about telling us that he disagrees, on the grounds that we don't know what we're talking about (when, clearly, we do, given that the weight of factual evidence is stacked highly in our favour).  I was the first to say it, and hopefully I'll be the last to say it: troll.

This is hilarious.  It boggles my mind how anyone can still think after this whole debate that any factual evidence has been placed against me that I have not refuted.  It's actually the reverse that has happened.  I proved myself correct using facts, while everyone else argued back with opinions that had no grounds in history or word definitions, or even logic.

And now people are trying to "troll" me off because they feel like crap when they can't argue back with solid evidence, but instead only ideas that no one needs to accept.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 10:23:37 AM
This discussion is a bit of a microcosm of what caused the death of metal.

We have lots of "knowledge" but there's very little excitement of discovery about anything. It's like that Lustmord song "it is the night of the demon... it is the night of the demon... it is the night of the demon..." ad infinitum. Why everything happened, from Judas Priest to thrash to black metal, was the same fucking maniacs wanting to explore the horizons and to see a new take on this barbaric-romantic spirit, which hails lawlessness and natural order, as the Romantics did, as Nietzsche did, as most of us (I hope) do. I bet there hasn't been any inclination on anyone's part here to actually go to listen to the Manowar record, or the Darkthrone record, or the punks, and to see for himself whether the other debater had a point or not. That is when metal culture, metal underground and metal forums historically speaking failed. When there was no slightest interest any longer to listen what the other person liked and recommended. There was only "power metallers" with the a priori decision to hate anything with non-melodic vocals, the black metal fans in reverse, etc. And you can trust no-one, or anybody's taste.

Most people don't like metal anymore (not sure if I can blame them!) but they like the thought of liking metal. But that thought needs to be encased into ever more stale and artificial margins, creating revisionist metal definitions and subgenres where they used to not exist. It gets apocalyptic at times.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 12:15:53 PM
This is hilarious.  It boggles my mind how anyone can still think after this whole debate that any factual evidence has been placed against me that I have not refuted.  It's actually the reverse that has happened.  I proved myself correct using facts, while everyone else argued back with opinions that had no grounds in history or word definitions, or even logic.

And now people are trying to "troll" me off because they feel like crap when they can't argue back with solid evidence, but instead only ideas that no one needs to accept.

First you imply that it's all opinion when presented with evidence against your claims, now you claim that you are the only one throughout the thread who has been right or logical.

Man, I have no clue what you're smoking, but I'd like some.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 03:35:43 PM
This is hilarious.  It boggles my mind how anyone can still think after this whole debate that any factual evidence has been placed against me that I have not refuted.  It's actually the reverse that has happened.  I proved myself correct using facts, while everyone else argued back with opinions that had no grounds in history or word definitions, or even logic.

And now people are trying to "troll" me off because they feel like crap when they can't argue back with solid evidence, but instead only ideas that no one needs to accept.

First you imply that it's all opinion when presented with evidence against your claims, now you claim that you are the only one throughout the thread who has been right or logical.

Man, I have no clue what you're smoking, but I'd like some.
What deadite is saying here is a good summation of my much larger post(s). Where you haven't merely given your own opinion, you have actively distorted the facts.

"My issue with the ANUS philosophy is that it is an example of historical revisionism.  You view death and black metal as the purest representations of what metal is; correct me if I am wrong about that.  The problem is, speed/thrash metal and all the metal subgenres that germinated from it are, in essence, heavy metal diluted with punk.  You think metal is nihilistic?  You are incorrect.  Metal is romantic." You make a huge mistake from the get-go by portraying historical revisionism in a negative light. What you failed to take into consideration is that historical evidence must be constantly reappraised as each new generation inherits it.

For example, Christopher Columbus's voyage to India was considered impossible not because the world was thought to be flat(that had been disproven since the times of Pythagoras and Aristotle), but because the world was thought to be much larger than it really was. Washington Irving, an American author who was writing a biography about Columbus, decided to portray his subject's endeavor as being even more pivotal than it really was by insisting that the European conception of the world was flat. Almost two hundred years later, and that fabrication still rears its ugly head in grade school text books.

You would decry any examination of the historical evidence as "revisionist" when that is obviously what it is, and rightfully so; to do otherwise would give the traditional historical narrative a truth value that it does not deserve(note that I am pointing out that we have inherited this falsehood as a result of not consulting the original sources ourselves).

Also, Romanticism does NOT equal hedonism. Your later equivocation of the two by lauding Manowar as the pinnacle of the romantic aspiration in metal is then problematic because the Romantics (with the possible exception of Keats and Blake) were brooding, contemplative spirits. They weren't beer swilling party animals(other than the obvious example of Byron, who otherwise spent much of his time alone, estranged from all other human beings). What does the phrase "sturm und drang" mean to you?

"I define metal by its texture and riffing style, not necessarily by its lyrics." Well, fuck, so do we!

"I think a metalhead should be able to raise his fist in the air and say "I know that brotherhood and unity, truth and justice, and rocking as hard as you can is the best way to live; these are values that are absolutely true and good.  If you disagree, then we might just meet in war."  I do not like wishy washy there-is-no-absolute-right-and-wrong.  I think metal gives off a stronger aura than that." This is merely your opinion. Also, since you present brotherhood and unity as your core values, then how do you treat your friends who prefer Iron Maiden or Motorhead to Manowar? Do you also denounce them as hipsters?

"What makes heavy metal special to me is that the music matches up perfectly with the atmosphere and attitude created by the lyrics.  They go hand-in-hand.  The verse-chorus format is one of my favorite song structures, a tradition that has stood the test of time for the reason that it best communicates anthemic feelings.  A lot of times, heavy metal is a very simplistic art form, capturing raw human emotions in their natural state, celebrating their nostalgia for age-old traditions alongside rebellion and individuality; it warps the orthodox instead of creating a new one.  That being said, I also love epic songs that take me on a journey, but life isn't about journeys.  I like music that reflects my life, my feelings, and my fantasies;  while I may go on journeys now and then, if all my music were a journey I would fail to celebrate myself in my entirety.  A significant portion of my life consists of hanging out with friends, going to work, going to university, a party here and a camping trip there, and satiating natural human urges of hunger, thirst, lust, greed, and relaxation." Opinion. Also, I thought you didn't define metal by the lyrics?

"There is no logical reason for this argument to be persuasive to me, as it seems dangerously close to an appeal to authority fallacy.  No matter what a thousand wise thinkers and poets may say, I do not need to agree with them.  I do not agree with the notion that the most superior art is transcendental.  I view it as equal to the recreation of already experienced thoughts and emotions,"

You've repeatedly demonstrated your lack of reading comprehension skills throughout this thread, but it seems to me that you've completely missed Shelley's point. Shelley is saying that art restores our interest in the mundane and the typical by casting it in a new, "transcendent" light. I believe you yourself have a similar argument? Also, opinion.

"But the direction of life itself is not, or at least should not be, evolution.  It is a fallacy to assume that something more evolved is superior to something less evolved, since to survive you do not need to be stronger than your ancestors, just strong enough to not die out.  I believe in perfection, that there is an ideal to shoot for;  we reached that ideal in 1969 when Black Sabbath recorded their eponymous song.  That song is musical perfection, and while thousands of other metal songs and metal albums have reached that perfection again and again, using different paths that all lead to the same summit, that level of perfection has never been topped and can never be topped.  I have no problem with fusing metal with other genres, such as punk, to try to reach that perfection in more different ways; what I do have a problem with, and find offensive to the metal community, is when people claim that metal used punk to become superior.  No, metal was already perfect without punk.  It is way too strong to need other genres to carry it, and when people claim that extreme metal is better than pure and unadulterated metal, it is insulting to heavy metal, and not what I see as the remark of a true metalhead."Opinion. You make a grammatical error in the fifth sentence.

Also, if the degree to which something is evolved is not an indicator of quality, then why do you complain of the public's perception of Manowar as "less evolved"? Why care?

How is it an insult to metal to recognize that it improved with the incorporation of punk techniques into its repertoire?  Do those who feel that power metal's (superficial) appropriation of classical techniques was an improvement also insult metal?

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 03:57:36 PM
"Metal can progress and evolve without incorporating new influences.  Genres such as power metal and doom metal have proven this.  I have no problem with any punk/metal hybrid, and I am a huge fan of many of those bands, but I would never dare call them an improvement over the original.  Once you do such a thing, it is betraying loyalty to metal."

Many doom metal bands also have some grindcore/hardcore influences, and power metal frequently includes a panoply of elements from other genres.

The second statement is unequivocally bullshit. I love Judas Priest's second and fourth album, and everything on Iron Maiden's first five still amazes me, but if I were to tell Dave Murray or Rob Halford that I enjoy Unquestionable Presence more than anything either artist was featured on, would they feel in the slightest bit insulted? I think not!

"As for Manowar, they happen to be my favorite band, and I see nothing wrong with showing pride for the sake of pride.  ANUS always speak about how the average metal fan misses the wonderful melodies and composition in bands like Morbid Angel or Burzum, because those elements are more subtle and obscure, requiring digging; today, I ask you to take your own advice.  The intellectual merit of a band like Manowar is hidden under the barbarian costumes and womanizing, but if you dig you will find it, and it will fulfill you like it did for me."Opinion.

I actually listened to Battle Hymns and Into Glory Ride in their entirety last night and was gravely disappointed, but more on that later.

"I also do not feel that heavy metal, as an idea, has degraded.  I find" Opinion.

"Perfect means I wouldn't change a thing about it." This is merely your definition designed to confirm your own prejudices. And after all, who should give a fuck about your opinions?

"There is nothing wrong with claiming it borrowed from punk to expand or become different, but to say it topped metal is definitely putting metal below any achievement of paramount" This would be similar to me saying that it would a denial of the achievements of Galileo, Newton, and Pasteur to say that our current understanding of the cosmos is more accurate than theirs due to our use of more advanced microscopes and telescopes.

"I respect that you prefer that particular example of music over Manowar, as we all have opinions." Then who's opinion is more truly metal? Also, how can you respect someone if you consider them a hipster?

   

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 04:20:10 PM
"This dilemma is one that applies equally to objective and subjective realities.  It remains a scientific mystery how something came out of nothing, and even if you believe in objective reality, the issue is then how objective reality came out of nothingness before the big bang.  Another thing to take into consideration is the possibility of an original sentience at the beginning of time which is responsible for sowing its seeds of sentience into the conscious creatures we see today, but even this "God" is not necessary to justify this general belief (at least, not any more-so than simply accepting that any reality at all exists.)"

That mystery does not change the objectivity of the reality in question, anymore than our lack of knowledge of galaxies outside of our own prior to the invention of modern telescopes meant that they did not exist.

Also, you seem to have difficulty with the concept of emergent properties. Consciousness is most likely one such property.

"Is there a pure me?  In one sense, the sense you are thinking with, the answer is no.  I am a mixture of my mother and father's genes.  In another sense, I am my pure self, because my self is defined by what created me and whose essence became components of me.  Heavy metal has the genes of hard rock, blues, classical, and its many parents (and ancestors) that bred it.  Punk is not one of those parents or ancestors." The genes by which your "self" is manifested express themselves at different times and in different ways all throughout your life. Your "essential self" will not be the same today as it will be ten years from now. The same goes for metal.

I myself argue that punk and metal are like Danes and Swedes, or Austrians and Germans; they are closely related offshoots from an original stock that was much like both of them, and can easily intermingle and breed with one another.

"I also enjoy debating like a sport." Then your competence as a player is equivalent to that of a bloated, seventy year old Samoan with arthritis, kidney stones, and pancreatic cancer.

"As for the short hike, that is exactly what I am saying.  Sometimes a song is like a short hike, and there is not clearly anything in that hike that can be called an epiphany, but the hike can lead me into a state of contemplation perhaps not even intended by the artist which will lead me to an epiphany.  That is why, and I repeat this idea, music is interactive and in many ways subjective." My point was that something seemingly unexemplary and trivial can lead to something numinous and unforgettable. We are very likely in agreement here, but I am simply trying to detect if you've really understood me. I have had life-changing experiences as the result of wandering around in the Obed National Park with my family and friends: there was no need to try to replicate the feats of Reinhold Messner.

"First of all, a huge potion (probably a majority) of exteme metal is not that complex.  A lot of it is minimalist, a lot of it is sloppy and/or straightforward, and the extremely technical bands are often very shallow when it comes to intellectual or emotional or artistic depth.  While there is plenty of very complex extreme metal, there is a lot of very complex heavy metal as well." Again, the complexity is emergent and Aristotelian in nature.

"When they first started out, they were booed off stage and kicked out of clubs because the metal community mistook them for nothing but punks.  They did not always fit alongside bands like Armored Saint and Savage Grace, who at the time were considered by the orthodox to be what metal was all about." This rejection clearly did not last for long, as KEA and RTL, and even their first ep, were hits by the standards of the day.

"Hardcore punk is even more at difference with metal, in the sense that the aesthetics were stripped away to t-shirts and jeans.  Speed/thrash metal picked up on this aesthetic and moved away from a lot of the original metal atmosphere." This is wrong for so many reasons.  Edit: I've added more pictures for your convenience.
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http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thegauntlet.com/photos/hellhammer.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thegauntlet.com/article/1225/15532/Top-10-Swiss-Metal-Bands.html&h=293&w=400&sz=19&tbnid=H6Txd5sV7SyZ6M:&tbnh=91&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHellhammer&usg=__NaYTMTX9srFvbZTYDTtqbvncnJA=&sa=X&ei=n3BlTM-DD4P_8AaTvZSfCQ&ved=0CD4Q9QEwCAhttp://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uB-0D-gV8mY/RyJkE8NJs2I/AAAAAAAAE8A/aClUVDJ9eKA/s400/gbh&imgrefurl=http://thep5.blogspot.com/2007/10/gbh-give-me-fire.html&usg=__okjsA46GexBeVG9NXJ2-Q4LO8w8=&h=278&w=280&sz=22&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=D9RjQZeO00wpVM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3DG.B.H.%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1255%26bih%3D603%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=326&ei=hpRlTJ6lJ4OB8gaOpvC-CA&oei=hpRlTJ6lJ4OB8gaOpvC-CA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=74&ty=61
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http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/Sigrid_Lamia/mayhem.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bandography.9f.com/PerYngveOhlin.html&usg=__kzEfT4S9bKGr10k-5khwOxPSBVU=&h=300&w=480&sz=18&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=Al1b0okHqDN5uM:&tbnh=144&tbnw=224&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMayhem%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D619%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=147&vpy=275&dur=350&hovh=156&hovw=250&tx=204&ty=93&ei=5bNlTKqFOsP78Ab3kIDNCA&oei=5bNlTKqFOsP78Ab3kIDNCA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0
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Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 04:43:05 PM
"There is much "alternative metal" and "glam metal" out there, that I am sure ANUS rejects, that clearly links itself back to bands like Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, etc." This false claim has already been debunked, so I won't dwell upon it.

"Dee Snider was, in addition to being a fan of rock in general, a fan of the emerging heavy metal movement; two of his favorite bands were Black Sabbath and Judas Priest.  He consciously decided to mix heavy metal and glam rock because he felt the genres have good chemistry, thus creating what we call "glam metal."" I've addressed this in one of my earlier posts, but I feel it merits even closer scrutiny.

Just because someone claims to enjoy something, does not mean that it's truly had any bearing upon their outlook or lifestyle. Consider all the "anarchists" who rail against society in times of prosperity, but would then perish within weeks of the closings of grocery stores.

There is a reason that my father's generation identified that music as "butt rock", after all :)

"Since almost the entire speed/thrash genre spawned from Motorhead, beginning with Venom and then carrying over into bands like Slayer, speed/thrash metal is just as much of an assimilation from the outside." What about Discharge, Minor Threat, Black Flag, or the Exploited? What about Iron Maiden, whose formation predates Venom's by three years and Manowar's by five years, and whose first e.p. predates Venom's by three years?  Or Bathory, who formed and developed independently of Venom?

"Some extreme metal is more complex than some heavy metal, and some heavy metal is more complex than some extreme metal, and at their most complex stages both are about equal.  Fates Warning, a band more rooted in heavy metal, are very complex.  Jungle Rot, an extreme metal band, is very simple." You need to qualify a few of these statements: what do YOU mean by complex?

"What do I make of Lemmy's remark?  Given Motorhead were the first punk/metal band and the cornerstone of all speed/thrash and what would become extreme metal, I make of it that speed/thrash and extreme metal are distanced from metal more than ANUS admits." I've already disproven this, but I'm simply reminding you of all your factual errors and flawed arguments.

"As for Di'Anno, he is one man who was ejected from his band Iron Maiden and did not fit in well, making him a poor example on your behalf.  Despite the rivalry between punk and metal in England, you did have bands like Tank, Atomkraft, and Warfare that stood out as exceptions that started bridging the gap.  But again, there was a gap that needed bridging, showing that punk did not naturally belong in metal." He was not removed for MUSICAL reasons, after all; it was because of drug abuse. You leave out the facts when it helps your case.

I think it's safe to say that punk and metal's mutual hostility was shortlived; we can identify it as a knee jerk reaction.

"Well, Iggy Pop and The Stooges are not too relevant here.  I differentiate between actual punk rock like The Ramones or The Clash, compared to garage rock (including most of that "proto-punk" stuff).  Respect and admiration is not relevant, either.  Overkill were the first thrash metal (I know ANUS calls crossover thrash thrash metal, and thrash metal speed metal; I'm using the orthodox definitions) band to begin gigging around, and Bobby Blitz was an adoring fan of Twisted Sister." Of course, let's just leave out the facts whenever they contradict our argument, okay?

Overkill did not have a full length recording released until 1983: therefore their influence is properly viewed as negligible in comparison to Hellhammer, Slayer, Metallica, et.all.

Edit: Feel The Fire was not released until 1985.

"That is your opinion, one that cannot be backed up by anything except subjective emotions." Mere relativism.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 05:13:54 PM
"Extreme metal also is not as distinct as you might think; look at how much grindcore and death metal overlap and have similarities:  Bolt Thrower, Carcass, Napalm Death, etc." You've named only grindcore bands, one subset of "extreme metal".

"I also already explained why elements like structure, narrative, journey, and epiphany to do not make an art form more superior to one that lacks those." And your explanation was found lacking.

"I am a huge fan of Manowar and Venom, both definitely in my top 3 bands of all time, but I do not view them as escapist.  They are relevant.  Manowar advocate a lifestyle of individualism, reject certain socially conservative notions that have oppressed us as human beings, and advocate hedonistic brigades as part of the human experience.  Venom reject organized religion and deal with issues such as the problem of evil (see the song "Hand of God," which Cronos wrote after lightning struck his roof),  however, because they also incorporate humor, you make the false assumption that they are nothing but a joke band.  I would rather listen to either of these bands than The Doors or The Misfits because they speak to me more, and I feel they have more to say that I can agree with.  Sword and sorcery is not irrelevant; it is just that it is more metaphorical and takes more thinking to apply the messages to daily life or politics (as opposed to blatant political rants in Napalm Death, for example.)" Opinions all.

Just don't pass off Manowar's lyrical themes as Romanticism: instead, take them as the schlock that they are.

Also, there are a cornucopia of bands who make the problem of evil their central pursuit; what makes Venom special for also doing so?

"As for your question: I have lurked around ANUS and its forum for some time, and I have seen its views appear on other sites (although, as of yet, never in real life), and so I felt that this place and its opinions were relevant and had impact.  Because I disagree with them, I felt compelled to make an effort to demonstrate to the people that follow them that they may not be so correct as they think.  I have seen users on this forum posting that if someone still praises and listens to Venom in the 21st century, it is a sign that they do not understand metal.  I have seen criticisms of songs that follow verse-chorus as inherently inferior.  My criticism of this comes from the fact that I view its ideas as flawed, and I want to put it out there that you should question your presumed superiority of extreme metal, and that the intelligence you associate it with is found equally in bands like W.A.S.P., Angel Witch, Diamond Head, etc.  Despite its self-imposed delusions, the ANUS community is no sharper or more enlightened than a typical, denim-clad headbanger as myself."

I have a hard time believing that you've been here for very long, due to all the factual errors that you make and the silly arguments that you present. The DLA features a glowing review of Angel Witch's first lp. W.A.S.P. is shit, plain and simple.

Also, opinions.

"But here's the most important reason why I came: I believe in the spirit of heavy metal, and it is worth my time to spread it everywhere I can to reach as many potential converts as possible, even the places where souls seem the most lost (and I certainly believe ANUS is missing essential components of what make the heavy metal spirit in its true and unadulterated and perfect form.)  I do not listen to Manowar lyrics and laugh at them ironically like some worthless false metaller; I put my money where my mouth is, embrace them with zero sense of irony or camp, and spread what I know to be right near and far.  And that is metal." I believe that metal embodies something greater and more powerful than the namby pamby relativism and half assed hedonism that you advocate.

I do not listen to Manowar's lyrics and laugh at them ironically like some worthless false metaller; I put my money where my mouth is, reject them with zero sense of irony, camp, or loss, and spread what I know to be right, and not merely my own opinion, near and far. And THAT is metal, son.




Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 13, 2010, 05:35:44 PM
"Punk did a lot of good things for metal, and I'm thankful for that, but metal is perfect with or without punk, prog, alternative, or whatever genre except the ones that helped mold metal in its infancy." "Perfect" only in your opinion.

A lover or spouse can have a tremendous effect on someone's personality; that influence, whether positive or negative, can not be considered false. Punk's influence on metal can be likened to that effect.

As for "corny" metal, I don't find metal corny because I'm a metalhead.  It is hipsters who find people like Dee Snider corny.

So Twisted Sister and Manowar represent metal as a whole now, huh?

I'm going to be blunt here; fuck you. Anyone who listens to even five seconds of a Winger or Twisted Sister track and does not immediately recognize it as shite is incapable of upholding even the lowest of standards, and is not worth associating with.  

"Are you talking to me?  I have spent years searching for myself, and I have found understanding.  Perhaps you need to take your own advice, for all I know." If by understanding you mean that you have formed your own opinion and deliberately distorted the information in an attempt to give it credibility. You'd best hit the books.

"The riffs in Black Sabbath are not laid-back and chill, but driving forward and less subtle." Weeeeeeeeeeell, gee, how specific!!!

"Keep listening to metal ironically and half-heartedly, but know there are true ones out there who would fight and die for it." There isn't a drop of ironic blood in my entire body.

"Too many of you lack the ability to argue coherently for a site that prides itself so much on its smarts.  Know that the real wisdom lies in the sword, and rocks in the heart." I've exposed the fuzzy logic and open contradictions of your argument, so your statement is left without credibility.

"Consider mine and yours enemies, not brothers.  There can be only one, and time will tell who is right." I would like to think of my enemies as being a bit more threatening than logically inept butt rock fans.

"Well, then that's the end of it.  I embrace metal, you embrace an evolution from metal and punk.  Is there much else to say?  I just wanted to let everyone know that they are not as metal as they think for listening to death and black bands all day.  If all I accomplished is furthering the divide between our parties, then I am glad for that." Glad to see that you embrace something so uncritically.

I also want you to know that you are not at all metal for distorting the truth and denouncing those more true to the cause than you are.

"Facts?  What facts? I got a whole mess of opinions from you.  I used history and logic, while you people used your redefinitions." This is more than just a little ridiculous, isn't it?

"You people tell me to find answers for myself, and that you can't give them to me.  Huh.  I think they don't exist." I've gotten you started on the quest for truth. I sincerly hope that you will see it through to the end.

"The difference is that I do look for truth, and I have found it." You mean your opinion?  

"This is simple math of 100% versus less than 100%.  It's barely math; it's counting."

"You want pure metal with less visible "rocking" in it?  Okay, listen to some doom or power metal.  What is your argument for Candlemass or Hammerfall being less metal than Slayer

"This is hilarious.  It boggles my mind how anyone can still think after this whole debate that any factual evidence has been placed against me that I have not refuted.  It's actually the reverse that has happened.  I proved myself correct using facts, while everyone else argued back with opinions that had no grounds in history or word definitions, or even logic."

All bullshit.