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Pure Metal and ANUS

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 17, 2010, 10:53:44 PM
Yeah. let's play again. Your sociotechnique works in such way: when you just have "something" to say on top of someone's post, you continue, but often you are skipping others points without acknowledgment. It creates that effect of being reasonable one surrounded by idiots.

Quote from: Night of the Demon
Quote from: Svmmoned

Looking at weigh of your arguments I can just say come on kid they were wrong. People and critics knew nothing. It was just mislabel, metal came later. You actually admitted that it was called retrospectively to differentiate Blue Cheer, heavier The Beatles and Led Zepp from metal. I can do same thing now. It was some good ideas still trapped within rock.

Do you think it is plausible that in the future the music you listen to will have advanced to the point where Suffocation and Immortal are no longer metal?  If so, then you define metal in a very fickle and useless way.  What the community has accepted as metal (Black Sabbath, Tygers of Pan Tang, Warlock, etc.) will always be metal.

You are trying to tell me that we are, based on some consensus, naming occurrences in history, and if we are not revisionists metal will be metal? Ok, but as an such form of much older idea, metal's best and most pure and meaningful period and thus most distinctive and representative would be Death/Black, while inception of it could be in fact Heavy Metal. Is Goethe's period of life, which would be most representative for his ideas was in his infancy?

Once community accepted Guns'n'Roses as a Heavy Metal record. I guess it's up to community, not everyone of them holds the truth though. They've labeled large part of music as a Heavy Metal retrospectively. And to this day they count heavier and distorted blues, some songs from The Beatles as well as Gwar, Faith No More, Slipknot, King's X, Soundgarden, Kyuss, Marilyn Manson, Biohazard etc. basing on their SIMILARITY to how metal "sounds" (More accurate because by metal texture, a term which you are using, you could actually mean "manifestation of structure", other users seems oblivious to that) while metal would be metal even on sheet. There were always a lot of metalheads which would fall prey of image or "selling in" of emulating bands. Doesn't matter. New forms of metal derived music pops every day and none of them seems to be more evolved beyond its peak - 90s. Same with other periods in history which ended, but still many of their "students" tries to top best achievements of it. Metal was about Sabbath Bloody Sabbaths, Iron Mans, Paranoids etc. not about Rock'n'Roll Doctors, or "rocking hard". It was idea simplified for easier digestion by/for rock'n'roll crowd.  Affirmation of whole life: death, horror, struggle, nature, spirituality, beauty, pleasure, might, etc. is not equal to "rocking hard". It's behavior to which dumb society reduces that idea. It shows level of their understanding. It's the same thing to original idea as Manowar to Wagner.

Quote from: Night of the Demon
It is around this time that a significant portion of the metal community lost the romantic and Wagnerian (in other words, the real true metal) spirit at the hand of Americanized punk.

Like I said. You are referring to trivialized, americanized and distorted meaning of the word. You want icons of emotions, and ideas, everything simplified to the form of patch on a leather. It's the born of modern irony. I guess (the True) Romanticism wouldn't be enough to fulfill your definition (removed from depth and overblown at the same time). There's not enough circus in Beethoven. Most people, including many metalheads, will remember Black Metal only as a corpse paint and satan because of such thinking. I'm grateful for romanticist modesty. They gave us more refined content by abandoning theatrics and look! It's still Romanticism!

Quote from: Night of the Demon
Ah, okay.  Do you have a rational reason for disliking overt messages, or is it merely a personal preference that music lack them?

It looses its requirement to be art or to be good art. It's like difference between journalism and poems - a more evolved form, harder to achieve. It's indirect yet it gives you a conclusion, but by moving through its narration it leaves also an experience.

Nobody denies the fact that Heavy Metal is capable to communicate something. But it is important how it is approaching to its themes and what it is communicating within. Metal is about war and religions and they are at least as old as humanity. So what? Other genres done that too. Is it sufficient to say about eternal principles?

I'M SAYING ABOUT ETERNAL PRINCIPLES NOW. ETERNAL PRINCIPLES. ETERNAL PRINCIPLES.

Then why we chose metal's way of approaching to the theme? Because it shows better understanding, less personal or less moralistic for example. Why do we chose Death/Black then? Because it goes even further. Some aspects of Heavy Metal should be dropped to express deeper and without disco elements. To be pure. Bad art gives you simple commands - now feel angry, now feel happy, when they're singing that they love you, you should take it as a granted. Somehow Heavy Metal still (caste issue?) saw some ideas, like christian's evil for example, on lower levels. Maybe it had something to do with difference in way of communicating between aristocrats and between proles. Maybe they're responsive to their own languages.

ALL OF WHICH YOU ALREADY KNOW, DEAR READER...

You are exposed I suppose. But tell me, how one would deal with such question: You obviously know a lot of death metal albums (knowledge of which you have already showed) - how could someone rooted within Heavy Metal tradition could choose Decapitated over Deicide?

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 12:15:08 AM
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Looking at weigh of your arguments I can just say come on kid they were wrong. People and critics knew nothing. It was just mislabel, metal came later. You actually admitted that it was called retrospectively to differentiate Blue Cheer, heavier The Beatles and Led Zepp from metal. I can do same thing now. It was some good ideas still trapped within rock.

Do you think it is plausible that in the future the music you listen to will have advanced to the point where Suffocation and Immortal are no longer metal?  If so, then you define metal in a very fickle and useless way.  What the community has accepted as metal (Black Sabbath, Tygers of Pan Tang, Warlock, etc.) will always be metal.

You are trying to tell me that we are, based on some consensus, naming occurrences in history, and if we are not revisionists metal will be metal? Ok, but as an such form of much older idea, metal's best and most pure and meaningful period and thus most distinctive and representative would be Death/Black, while inception of it could be in fact Heavy Metal. Is Goethe's period of life, which would be most representative for his ideas was in his infancy?

There is birth, infancy, maturity, and senility.  What is most representative of a subject is not necessarily himself in his oldest state, but his most mature state.  You will find that the time it takes for art to age is not easily comparable to that of a human; it might take a genre a few months to reach maturity, and then it decays over a course of decades.  Now, I am not saying this exactly happened to metal, but I'm saying your analogies prove nothing.  I am saying that just because black/death is the style most removed and evolved from heavy (debatable), it is not necessarily the most advanced.

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Once community accepted Guns'n'Roses as a Heavy Metal record. I guess it's up to community, not everyone of them holds the truth though. They've labeled large part of music as a Heavy Metal retrospectively. And to this day they count heavier and distorted blues, some songs from The Beatles as well as Gwar, Faith No More, Slipknot, King's X, Soundgarden, Kyuss, Marilyn Manson, Biohazard etc. basing on their SIMILARITY to how metal "sounds" (More accurate because by metal texture, a term which you are using, you could actually mean "manifestation of structure", other users seems oblivious to that) while metal would be metal even on sheet. There were always a lot of metalheads which would fall prey of image or "selling in" of emulating bands. Doesn't matter. New forms of metal derived music pops every day and none of them seems to be more evolved beyond its peak - 90s. Same with other periods in history which ended, but still many of their "students" tries to top best achievements of it. Metal was about Sabbath Bloody Sabbaths, Iron Mans, Paranoids etc. not about Rock'n'Roll Doctors, or "rocking hard". It was idea simplified for easier digestion by/for rock'n'roll crowd.  Affirmation of whole life: death, horror, struggle, nature, spirituality, beauty, pleasure, might, etc. is not equal to "rocking hard". It's behavior to which dumb society reduces that idea. It shows level of their understanding. It's the same thing to original idea as Manowar to Wagner.

Listen to Judas Priest's debut, and it is clear that rocking out was part of metal from near the beginning.  It was in early Black Sabbath too, except not in the lyrics, more ingrained subtly in the music; it was designed to rock too.

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Quote from: Night of the Demon
It is around this time that a significant portion of the metal community lost the romantic and Wagnerian (in other words, the real true metal) spirit at the hand of Americanized punk.

Like I said. You are referring to trivialized, americanized and distorted meaning of the word. You want icons of emotions, and ideas, everything simplified to the form of patch on a leather. It's the born of modern irony. I guess (the True) Romanticism wouldn't be enough to fulfill your definition (removed from depth and overblown at the same time). There's not enough circus in Beethoven. Most people, including many metalheads, will remember Black Metal only as a corpse paint and satan because of such thinking. I'm grateful for romanticist modesty. They gave us more refined content by abandoning theatrics and look! It's still Romanticism!

There's nothing Americanized about this concept, which began in the UK as far as metal is concerned.  The circus is important, because it is symbolic of celebration; it shows pride, and removing the circus is like stripping a warrior of his gloriously crafted armor.  Yes, he is still a warrior, but nothing was gained and only something was lost.

People who are too shallow to see past the circus are not the kinds I want becoming interested in metal, nor the kinds I need respect or want respect from.

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Quote from: Night of the Demon
Ah, okay.  Do you have a rational reason for disliking overt messages, or is it merely a personal preference that music lack them?

It looses its requirement to be art or to be good art. It's like difference between journalism and poems - a more evolved form, harder to achieve. It's indirect yet it gives you a conclusion, but by moving through its narration it leaves also an experience.

Poetry can be very overt.  I just mentioned "The White Man's Burden" on the prior page.  What you are describing is not harder to achieve, and not a requirement of good art.

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Nobody denies the fact that Heavy Metal is capable to communicate something. But it is important how it is approaching to its themes and what it is communicating within. Metal is about war and religions and they are at least as old as humanity. So what? Other genres done that too. Is it sufficient to say about eternal principles?

I'M SAYING ABOUT ETERNAL PRINCIPLES NOW. ETERNAL PRINCIPLES. ETERNAL PRINCIPLES.

Then why we chose metal's way of approaching to the theme? Because it shows better understanding, less personal or less moralistic for example. Why do we chose Death/Black then? Because it goes even further. Some aspects of Heavy Metal should be dropped to express deeper and without disco elements. To be pure. Bad art gives you simple commands - now feel angry, now feel happy, when they're singing that they love you, you should take it as a granted. Somehow Heavy Metal still (caste issue?) saw some ideas, like christian's evil for example, on lower levels. Maybe it had something to do with difference in way of communicating between aristocrats and between proles. Maybe they're responsive to their own languages.

It doesn't go further.  It takes abstract concepts and leaves them alone, while more overt music applies those concepts to a time.  It is then the responsibility of the listener to transcribe messages between time, and it is certainly no simpler, and requires no less critical thinking.  You also need to decide whether you agree with the message, in part or in whole, and whether the apparently overt message is also the deeper message.  If not, then you need to decide what that is, too.

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You are exposed I suppose. But tell me, how one would deal with such question: You obviously know a lot of death metal albums (knowledge of which you have already showed) - how could someone rooted within Heavy Metal tradition could choose Decapitated over Deicide?

You are correct that Deicide would appear on the surface to have more in common with my tradition, but at the end of the day Deicide's music does for me nothing entirely new that no other band had not already done, and better.  Decapitated has always filled my mind with much wonder about the origins of the universe and human ethics.

And I'm not trying to put down Deicide, a great band but not a favorite of mine.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 12:43:51 AM
Race has only become a "political" issue in the past century.  The White Man's Burden is far more philosophical than it is "political", though it's boringly sedentry.  James Joyce created exercises in bullshit, not in Art.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 01:32:08 AM
Race has been political for centuries.  You are limiting race in politics to the modern issue of racial struggles, which is so stupid and ridiculous I feel literally disgusted by you.  You should stop arguing for ANUS now because you are merely embarrassing them by taking their side; and if they are not embarrassed, then this place is more dumb and pseudo-intellectual than I thought.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 02:38:45 AM
Race has only become a "political" issue in the past century.  The White Man's Burden is far more philosophical than it is "political", though it's boringly sedentry.  James Joyce created exercises in bullshit, not in Art.
I can think of dozens of instances that would disprove that assertion.

I definitely wouldn't level that criticism at all of Joyce's works. Were you referring to Ulysses and Finnigan's Wake?

The quality of your posts seems to have been on a steep decline. What gives?
Race has been political for centuries.  You are limiting race in politics to the modern issue of racial struggles, which is so stupid and ridiculous I feel literally disgusted by you.  You should stop arguing for ANUS now because you are merely embarrassing them by taking their side; and if they are not embarrassed, then this place is more dumb and pseudo-intellectual than I thought.

That's why a lot of people here need to be trained in art appreciation,  because they're too lazy to dig through anything that distracts their ADD minds.  Why not just be spoon-fed abstract concepts?
There's that goofiness that Jim Necroslaughter was talking about :) In regards to your second statement, I think that this is precisely what Svmmonded was accusing you of.
 
Quote from: we hope you die on August 17, 2010, 12:34:35 PM
Surely you can agree that lyrics that attempt to deal with war and conflict in the abstract are more sophisticated than reactionary songs written about a particular event that just happen to be transferable to other such events?

I do not agree.

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Compare any protest song about war with the lyrics of Bolt Thrower.

The results show that Bolt Thrower's lyrics are less impressive.

I think that this (http://www.metal-archives.com/viewlyrics.php?id=9387) can be favorably compared with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVFfOOm_GI) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ncCyL_g28I) (that's saying something for me, because I love Frank Zappa and Bob Dylan).

And even if either category of songwriting can still be considered to have relevance to our era, I would say that Bolt Thrower is still the more timely of the two. What do you think the album title "The IVth Crusade" was alluding to?

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Why aspire to transitory subject matter in music when one can attempt to appeal to something far more perminent such as war, conflict, death and spirituality as concepts rather than the reactionary?

Because writing about war, conflict, death, and spirituality in the abstract often accomplishes little.  If a listener is intelligent enough to apply abstract concept to real-life events of the present, then he is intelligent enough to transfer real-life concept from the past to real-life events in the present.  Both need to be transcribed.

I think that the Iliad is the perfect model for what we're discussing. It not only offers visceral battle scenes and memorable personages, but delivers very powerful truths that can still be applied today, thousands of years after the poem was committed to paper.

 

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 02:53:18 AM
Read Montaigne for an understanding of how the West viewed "saluages".  People retained the same views as he explains until the 19th century, when it was finally accepted by the majority that Blacks and Native Americans weren't incredibly human-like animals.  Even then, this was principally a philosophical/scientific debate, until European Nationalism became extrospective.

Dead Soul, which assertion are you speaking of?

I certainly would level that criticism at all of Joyce's works that I've ever encountered (which is an unfortunately large number, given that Joyce was a side-topic of my study of "English" Literatue), though I was specifically referring to Ulysses, which must be the biggest load of tripe I've ever attempted to read.

My post quality reflects how much I want to troll people.  If you look back, I gave up on this poster/thread quite a while back.  I'm just feeding the fire, at the moment, waiting for someone to close it for absolute inanity.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 03:10:54 AM
I think that the Iliad is the perfect model for what we're discussing. It not only offers visceral battle scenes and memorable personages, but delivers very powerful truths that can still be applied today, thousands of years after the poem was committed to paper.

Like the best Extreme Metal.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 03:11:43 AM
I think that this (http://www.metal-archives.com/viewlyrics.php?id=9387) can be favorably compared with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVFfOOm_GI) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ncCyL_g28I) (that's saying something for me, because I love Frank Zappa and Bob Dylan).

I actually had that particular Bob Dylan song in mind when making the comment.  No, I find Dylan's lyrics in this song to be superior to Bolt Thrower's. 

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And even if either category of songwriting can still be considered to have relevance to our era, I would say that Bolt Thrower is still the more timely of the two. What do you think the album title "The IVth Crusade" was alluding to?

And, I would say they are probably equally relevant.  Both points of view on war are still held today by large numbers of people.

As for your question, I might be missing something.  I would imagine it is alluding to the medieval crusades.
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Why aspire to transitory subject matter in music when one can attempt to appeal to something far more perminent such as war, conflict, death and spirituality as concepts rather than the reactionary?

Because writing about war, conflict, death, and spirituality in the abstract often accomplishes little.  If a listener is intelligent enough to apply abstract concept to real-life events of the present, then he is intelligent enough to transfer real-life concept from the past to real-life events in the present.  Both need to be transcribed.

I think that the Iliad is the perfect model for what we're discussing. It not only offers visceral battle scenes and memorable personages, but delivers very powerful truths that can still be applied today, thousands of years after the poem was committed to paper.

Well yes, the Iliad as well as the Odyssey, and even older works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, are exactly what I am talking about.  What you said supports my point that much of the greatest art consists of "period pieces."

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 03:23:52 AM
Well yes, the Iliad as well as the Odyssey, and even older works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, are exactly what I am talking about.  What you said supports my point that much of the greatest art consists of "period pieces."

I'll just say that this point has been made by ANUS and the DLA, and probably many other similar groups, repeatedly over the years.  That in itself goes to show the timelessness of such works.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 03:27:43 AM
My post quality reflects how much I want to troll people.  If you look back, I gave up on this poster/thread quite a while back.  I'm just feeding the fire, at the moment, waiting for someone to close it for absolute inanity.

Well yes, the Iliad as well as the Odyssey, and even older works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, are exactly what I am talking about.  What you said supports my point that much of the greatest art consists of "period pieces."

I'll just say that this point has been made by ANUS and the DLA, and probably many other similar groups, repeatedly over the years.  That in itself goes to show the timelessness of such works.

You confessed to being a troll a few posts back.  Fuck out of this thread.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 03:34:03 AM
Oh that Cargest.

If you've been to Metalthrone recently, Carg, you're pretty legendary. Every time we get a new troll or just another dumbass we always suspect it's you.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
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And even if either category of songwriting can still be considered to have relevance to our era, I would say that Bolt Thrower is still the more timely of the two. What do you think the album title "The IVth Crusade" was alluding to?

And, I would say they are probably equally relevant.  Both points of view on war are still held today by large numbers of people.

As for your question, I might be missing something.  I would imagine it is alluding to the medieval crusades.
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I think that the Iliad is the perfect model for what we're discussing. It not only offers visceral battle scenes and memorable personages, but delivers very powerful truths that can still be applied today, thousands of years after the poem was committed to paper.

Well yes, the Iliad as well as the Odyssey, and even older works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, are exactly what I am talking about.  What you said supports my point that much of the greatest art consists of "period pieces."
<Sighs> The Gulf War ring a bell?

I use period piece in the same sense that Harold Bloom uses; a work that might have had relevance and popularity in the time of its creation, but no longer has significance outside of academia. Period pieces are exercises in cliche, while works like the Iliad are one of a kind. Master Of Reality is not a period piece, but the records made by Black Widow are.


Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 05:03:58 AM
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And even if either category of songwriting can still be considered to have relevance to our era, I would say that Bolt Thrower is still the more timely of the two. What do you think the album title "The IVth Crusade" was alluding to?

And, I would say they are probably equally relevant.  Both points of view on war are still held today by large numbers of people.

As for your question, I might be missing something.  I would imagine it is alluding to the medieval crusades.
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I think that the Iliad is the perfect model for what we're discussing. It not only offers visceral battle scenes and memorable personages, but delivers very powerful truths that can still be applied today, thousands of years after the poem was committed to paper.

Well yes, the Iliad as well as the Odyssey, and even older works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, are exactly what I am talking about.  What you said supports my point that much of the greatest art consists of "period pieces."
<Sighs> The Gulf War ring a bell?

That's not an allusion, more of an analogy to something.  There is a difference.

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I use period piece in the same sense that Harold Bloom uses; a work that might have had relevance and popularity in the time of its creation, but no longer has significance outside of academia. Period pieces are exercises in cliche, while works like the Iliad are one of a kind. Master Of Reality is not a period piece, but the records made by Black Widow are.

I think society loses touch with a lot of obscure bands from the past, because society has its heads in the clouds and is trendy.  Do you honestly believe that Iron Maiden is still remembered because they were any better than the scores of other forgotten NWOBHM acts?  Of course not; it was just luck of the draw.

People can't deal with the reality that the music business is unfair, so they invent lies to fool themselves into thinking things are more just.

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 05:30:12 AM
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And even if either category of songwriting can still be considered to have relevance to our era, I would say that Bolt Thrower is still the more timely of the two. What do you think the album title "The IVth Crusade" was alluding to?

And, I would say they are probably equally relevant.  Both points of view on war are still held today by large numbers of people.

As for your question, I might be missing something.  I would imagine it is alluding to the medieval crusades.
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I think that the Iliad is the perfect model for what we're discussing. It not only offers visceral battle scenes and memorable personages, but delivers very powerful truths that can still be applied today, thousands of years after the poem was committed to paper.

Well yes, the Iliad as well as the Odyssey, and even older works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, are exactly what I am talking about.  What you said supports my point that much of the greatest art consists of "period pieces."
<Sighs> The Gulf War ring a bell?

That's not an allusion, more of an analogy to something.  There is a difference.

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I use period piece in the same sense that Harold Bloom uses; a work that might have had relevance and popularity in the time of its creation, but no longer has significance outside of academia. Period pieces are exercises in cliche, while works like the Iliad are one of a kind. Master Of Reality is not a period piece, but the records made by Black Widow are.

I think society loses touch with a lot of obscure bands from the past, because society has its heads in the clouds and is trendy.  Do you honestly believe that Iron Maiden is still remembered because they were any better than the scores of other forgotten NWOBHM acts?  Of course not; it was just luck of the draw.

People can't deal with the reality that the music business is unfair, so they invent lies to fool themselves into thinking things are more just.
My mistake.

Yes, I do. The first two records are still exhilarating. Your argument could also be made against Judas Priest, you know.

That still has nothing to do with my example. Master Of Reality is Black Sabbath's third record, and yes, they were better than most of their contemporaries(Vanilla Fudge, Blue Cheer, etc.)

And what on earth are you trying to address with your third comment?

Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
August 18, 2010, 05:52:11 AM

Yes, I do. The first two records are still exhilarating. Your argument could also be made against Judas Priest, you know.

It definitely could be used against Judas Priest.  I can think of many less popular metal bands I prefer over Priest.

Iron maiden's debut is very good, but I think the debuts by Angel Witch and Diamond Head would both top them.  Some really obscure NWOBHM like Limelight and Sledgehammer would surpass it as well, as far as I'm concerned.  This kind of goes back into subjectivity, and how everybody likes different things and is a unique individual.  As much as I think Grim Reaper was a very overrated NWOBHM when they got some fame in the 80's, I'd have an impossible time logically or scientifically proving to their fans that Saxon or Demon is much better.

I expect some criticism from ANUS for that last statement, as they seem hostile to the "it's just an opinion and everyone is unique" attitude.  I think they conflate it with the "I'm cool because I am open-minded but am to lazy to defend or explain the artistic merit of my taste" attitude.  If anyone ever wants to know why I like an album, they can ask me and I will explain it to them thoroughly and with insight.  When they can't defend why they like Nirvana anymore than "I don't know; it's just my thing" then that is when I know they wrong.  It's the strength behind the defense of art that people give it which counts.

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That still has nothing to do with my example. Master Of Reality is Black Sabbath's third record, and yes, they were better than most of their contemporaries(Vanilla Fudge, Blue Cheer, etc.)

I agree as I love Black Sabbath, far more than those bands.  However, tell that to a Vanilla Fudge or Blue Cheer fan and they will beg to differ.

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And what on earth are you trying to address with your third comment?

I'm just throwing out that it's a real shame so many great acts never make it big and are forgotten.  I think that's why people developed the "washed-up" rocker cliche, to make light of the fact that great artists have fallen through no fault of their own.  Have you ever watched Anvil! The Story of Anvil?  It's a great film that deals with this issue, about how the metal band Anvil who were huge in the 80's, touring with Bon Jovi and Scorpions and Whitesnake, fell out of favor with a lot of the metal scene and were practically left for dead, but they kept soldiering on.  It's a really touching and excellent film that captures the true metal spirit in one of its best forms.

Anvil are a great metal band who did not deserve to get "washed-up," but they did, quality of their art aside.