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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: scourge on October 15, 2010, 06:54:20 PM

Title: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 15, 2010, 06:54:20 PM
Quote
Some species live only a year or so; others, like the giant Pacific Octopus may live four years. They are, however, much more serious about courtship rituals than previously thought.

There's a reason that octopuses are known as escape artists; they are extremely intelligent, able to solve problems, and have demonstrated short and long term memory, and an interest in play. Scientists have, for years, tested and studied the abilities of octopuses to successfully navigate mazes, learn visual and vocal cues, and remember solutions to previous problems, and even employ them to solve new, more complicated problems.

http://animalreport.com/2009/03/01/octopus

What we're seeing is another species on the same evolutionary journey that parallels our own. Maybe they will replace us and rule the local group of 30 star systems in our stead, a geological age hence. Evolution, not equality and safety nets, not accessibility for the handicapped, is the foundation of progress.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: JewishPhysics on October 15, 2010, 07:12:31 PM
Evolution, not equality and safety nets, not accessibility for the handicapped, is the foundation of progress.
But if we take hold of the reigns of genetic selection, we can forge our own path.  Evolution, as in natural selection, works blindly and inefficiently.  Either way, a legion of genius octopuses can mean nothing but good things.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 15, 2010, 07:34:39 PM
The sea has been colonized for much longer and yet hasn't produced a sentient species. It's a nice basis for science fiction though I am sure.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 15, 2010, 08:02:56 PM
Verily then, sentience is not a prerequisite to grasping the meaning of sentience.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: hoodwink on October 17, 2010, 11:54:23 AM
The sea has been colonized for much longer and yet hasn't produced a sentient species.

Semantics aside, is there any actual proof of this?
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: devolved on October 17, 2010, 12:02:58 PM
What about cetaceans? They came from land but evolved drastically once in the sea, and are pretty smart.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Spectrum on October 17, 2010, 12:07:03 PM
The sea has been colonized for much longer and yet hasn't produced a sentient species.

Semantics aside, is there any actual proof of this?

Depends on what you see as sentient; personally, I don't see humans as a sapient species at all.  We're pretty clueless and yet we act as though we aren't.  We seem to score pretty low on the "awareness" factor.  Anyhow, I suppose what Wolfgang is speaking of is that the sea hasn't produced sentience to that of homosapiens' caliber.  I don't understand how that demands proof.....I understand that many beings possess intelligence, but that doesn't mean we aren't the most "aware".  That's what Wolfgang is probably referring to.

What about cetaceans? They came from land but evolved drastically once in the sea, and are pretty smart.

Yeah, cetaceans are definitely cool.  Cephalopods (as of now) seem to be a favorite though.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Dead_Soul on October 17, 2010, 02:13:34 PM
This thread reminds me of Grigory from Gravity's Rainbow.

Given the octopus's highly inefficient circulatory system(they have three hearts), it is unlikely that they will ever have any sort of dominance in the biosphere. Cuttlefish on the other hand... 
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Dead_Soul on October 17, 2010, 02:20:18 PM
Cetaceans are the closest to "intelligent life" by our standards(the only standard that exists), and have analogues to culture.

Nothing else in this thread is worth replying to though, yikes.
Pachyderms are just as intelligent as cetaceans. They mourn their dead, use tools, and behave culturally.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_intelligence
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Cargést on October 17, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

I am impressed by this.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 17, 2010, 02:58:32 PM
Intelligence and awareness are gradients, not a binary black and white, on or off, as the subjects of Dunning and Kruger's study, who are all anthropocentricists, would have us all believe.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: hoodwink on October 17, 2010, 03:10:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

I am impressed by this.

An elephant painting figuratively with color.  You'd have to be lifeless and dead not to be moved by that.

Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Spectrum on October 17, 2010, 03:16:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

I am impressed by this.

An elephant painting figuratively with color.  You'd have to be lifeless and dead not to be moved by that.

Thanks for posting.

Astonishing.  I loved how at the end the elephant went back and completed the segment where the trunk meets/wraps the flower.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Veritas on October 17, 2010, 07:51:47 PM
The Elephant, having understood the doctrine of the forms as it relates to aesthetic properties, represented through intricately prepared brush movements, in a style not dissimilar to th... or perhaps this is just a case of "an elephant never forgets"?

Dolphins are smart, but what the hell can you do with flippers? Those tentacles have much greater potential.

( Cthulhu Fhtagn )
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Humanicide on October 17, 2010, 09:07:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

I am impressed by this.

Wow, that's really neat.

Actually that elephant is probably more skilled at painting than I am.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Levy_Spearmen on October 17, 2010, 11:25:26 PM
( Cthulhu Fhtagn )

I'll believe it.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 12:15:13 AM
Intelligence and awareness are gradients, not a binary black and white, on or off, as the subjects of Dunning and Kruger's study, who are all anthropocentricists, would have us all believe.
Sure, sure, but where does the octopus rank on this scale honestly? You just devils advocating here or do you have a pet octopus you swear is self aware?

Being able to figure out some basic puzzles does not mean this animal is or is evolving toward anything that resembles higher intelligence as we understand it. You can speak in circles about how humans don't understand the true nature of sentience all you like though, and fantasize about octopus master races, if that verily floats your boat. I'm not here to judge.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Umbrage on October 18, 2010, 12:50:49 AM
Intelligence and awareness are gradients, not a binary black and white, on or off, as the subjects of Dunning and Kruger's study, who are all anthropocentricists, would have us all believe.
Sure, sure, but where does the octopus rank on this scale honestly? You just devils advocating here or do you have a pet octopus you swear is self aware?

Being able to figure out some basic puzzles does not mean this animal is or is evolving toward anything that resembles higher intelligence as we understand it. You can speak in circles about how humans don't understand the true nature of sentience all you like though, and fantasize about octopus master races, if that verily floats your boat. I'm not here to judge.

You brat! Human-centric disbeliever!! Your ignorance is blasphemy to the truth! Behold the power of the octopus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Octopus
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 18, 2010, 06:37:25 AM
You just devils advocating here or do you have a pet octopus you swear is self aware?

Being able to figure out some basic puzzles does not mean this animal is or is evolving toward anything that resembles higher intelligence as we understand it. You can speak in circles about how humans don't understand the true nature of sentience all you like though, and fantasize about octopus master races, if that verily floats your boat.

This is all a strawman. You'll need to do better.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Ymir on October 18, 2010, 08:25:41 AM
Intelligence and awareness are gradients, not a binary black and white, on or off, as the subjects of Dunning and Kruger's study, who are all anthropocentricists, would have us all believe.
Sure, sure, but where does the octopus rank on this scale honestly? You just devils advocating here or do you have a pet octopus you swear is self aware?

Being able to figure out some basic puzzles does not mean this animal is or is evolving toward anything that resembles higher intelligence as we understand it. You can speak in circles about how humans don't understand the true nature of sentience all you like though, and fantasize about octopus master races, if that verily floats your boat. I'm not here to judge.

It seems you are just being confrontational for its own sake. If you don't care about this subject, don't post.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 08:49:48 AM
Stupid in, stupid out. Have you actually read this thread at all?




Serious question Scourge, where would cephalopods rank on this scale of yours?
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 18, 2010, 09:16:20 AM
Were you the one in and out of the psych ward or the one with the addiction to hard drugs? I don't recall at this time. Is your attention seeking behaviour the result of my correcting your inability to follow simple directions last week or is it just a history of childhood neglect?
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Cargést on October 18, 2010, 09:36:19 AM
Wow, dey be gettin bad argumentative practice ALL UP IN DIS SHIZZLE, DAWG

Word
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: JewishPhysics on October 18, 2010, 10:19:16 AM
Serious question Scourge, where would cephalopods rank on this scale of yours?
Somewhere in the middle, I would guess.  Did you want an exact figure or something?
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 11:33:11 AM
Were you the one in and out of the psych ward or the one with the addiction to hard drugs? I don't recall at this time. Is your attention seeking behaviour the result of my correcting your inability to follow simple directions last week or is it just a history of childhood neglect?

Don't take yourself so seriously my friend. You've filled this thread with holier than thou assbabble. Garbage in, garbage out. Post value is a gradient and yours are on the low end. Don't act surprised and don't play stupid.

Oh nevermind. Squid people will inherit the Earth in ten million years.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 18, 2010, 12:05:03 PM
So what we can take away from this is that one night of filling my PM box with your snivelling wasn't enough. Correct?
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 18, 2010, 03:49:00 PM
Former British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli wrote, “Imagination governs mankind.”

I can appreciate why in the Hindu mythos life, animals in particular, is sacred. Although it may seem tree huggerish, the underlying lesson here is also found in Linkola's make room for nature proclamation. We could at least give young people an alternative to the anthropocentric materialist dualism which would have mankind in one segment and all other living things in another segment, an apparent mythology in its own right.

The point given here is to mend our own exisiting imagination and mythology as other cultures have learned to do. Animals are like other people, but of a genus different than our own, but sharing our world nonetheless.

Quote
In the field of cognition, the march towards continuity between human and animal has been inexorable — one misconduct case won’t make a difference. True, humanity never runs out of claims of what sets it apart, but it is a rare uniqueness claim that holds up for over a decade. This is why we don’t hear anymore that only humans make tools, imitate, think ahead, have culture, are self-aware, or adopt another’s point of view.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/morals-without-god/?src=me&ref=homepage
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 07:28:19 PM
lol scourge. How many you gonna delete? Post our convo from that night since you brought it up. I double dog dare you. Fuck it. Triple dog dare you.


Honestly though, you've won me over. I recommend a tribe page be created for Cephalopods. I recommend we recognize Otto as their supreme leader.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3328480/Otto-the-octopus-wrecks-havoc.html

Staff believe that the octopus called Otto had been annoyed by the bright light shining into his aquarium and had discovered he could extinguish it by climbing onto the rim of his tank and squirting a jet of water in its direction.

The short-circuit had baffled electricians as well as staff at the Sea Star Aquarium in Coburg, Germany, who decided to take shifts sleeping on the floor to find out what caused the mysterious blackouts.
 
A spokesman said: "It was a serious matter because it shorted the electricity supply to the whole aquarium that threatened the lives of the other animals when water pumps ceased to work.

"It was on the third night that we found out that the octopus Otto was responsible for the chaos.

"We knew that he was bored as the aquarium is closed for winter, and at two feet, seven inches Otto had discovered he was big enough to swing onto the edge of his tank and shoot out the 2000 Watt spot light above him with a carefully directed jet of water."

Director Elfriede Kummer who witnessed the act said: "We've put the light a bit higher now so he shouldn't be able to reach it. But Otto is constantly craving for attention and always comes up with new stunts so we have realised we will have to keep more careful eye on him - and also perhaps give him a few more toys to play with.

"Once we saw him juggling the hermit crabs in his tank, another time he threw stones against the glass damaging it. And from time to time he completely re-arranges his tank to make it suit his own taste better - much to the distress of his fellow tank inhabitants."
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Parasite on October 18, 2010, 07:35:45 PM
Absolutely BIZZARE!
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: scourge on October 18, 2010, 07:53:29 PM
I don't see the need for expressions of bigotry against the other peoples in the world, especially as unwilling captives under the oppression of zoological containment.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Eleison on October 18, 2010, 08:59:34 PM
Serious question Scourge, where would cephalopods rank on this scale of yours?

I'm guessing higher than you...
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: lord.aspie on October 18, 2010, 09:16:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

I am impressed by this.

Wow.

I wonder which came first, language or Lascaux cave paintings?

If it was the cave paintings, then is art humanities deepest/most ingrained language?

Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: lord.aspie on October 18, 2010, 09:32:29 PM
Serious question Scourge, where would cephalopods rank on this scale of yours?

I'm guessing higher than you...

You should probably stay out of that one since you are most likely just confirming Volfgang's opinion that this is a "group-think" and not a "think tank" board.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 10:07:52 PM
Serious question Scourge, where would cephalopods rank on this scale of yours?

I'm guessing higher than you...

You should probably stay out of that one since you are most likely just confirming Volfgang's opinion that this is a "group-think" and not a "think tank" board.

I don't think the cause of Cephalopod civil rights has been a typical charge in any group think accusations anyone has levied against this forum.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: metal on metal on October 19, 2010, 01:21:38 AM
I wonder which came first, language or Lascaux cave paintings?

If it was the cave paintings, then is art humanities deepest/most ingrained language?

If we are to follow the evidence of modern science, first came the recognition of death, as in Only Death Is Real. Humans differ from other animals because they are constantly aware of their impending doom and base all their rational actions on the fact that they will die some day. Animals are aware of death only in the moment of dying or when directly facing a dying organism, but they don't base much of their actions around that. So, if we were to follow this, probably the first art was some kind of a funeral rite, as evidences of these rites are the first proof of prehistoric human aware of his own death.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Dead_Soul on October 19, 2010, 08:55:14 AM
I wonder which came first, language or Lascaux cave paintings?

If it was the cave paintings, then is art humanities deepest/most ingrained language?
Humans differ from other animals because they are constantly aware of their impending doom and base all their rational actions on the fact that they will die some day.
Really? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_-Tr63MMow&feature=player_embedded#!
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: metal on metal on October 19, 2010, 11:20:23 AM
Elephants may experience emotions when recognizing the bones of their dead (probably driven to the graveyard by the same instincts which guide turtles deep into the land to lay eggs), but do not organize their lives around the single fact of inevitable death. When animals build dams and other complex structures, it's under the command of their species' instincts, karma you could say. Only humans consciously plan future actions while living with one foot in the future, disconnected from immediacy, preserving the temporary continuity of their existence.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Cargést on October 19, 2010, 11:44:59 AM
Only humans consciously plan future actions while living with one foot in the future, disconnected from immediacy, preserving the temporary continuity of their existence.

Not many do that.  Most people are entirely concerned with the present.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: metal on metal on October 19, 2010, 12:30:34 PM
Only humans consciously plan future actions while living with one foot in the future, disconnected from immediacy, preserving the temporary continuity of their existence.

Not many do that.  Most people are entirely concerned with the present.

I wouldn't agree. For instance, if you consider some low brow crook, his goal might be a night spent with a bottle of hooch and a decent whore, but most of his time will be spent planning and executing the robbery. A shot of adrenalin during the robbery might raise him to a higher level, but the only moments spent in the present will be connected with alcoholic delirium, intercourse and especially ejaculation. A couch potato will dream about TV during work-time, but won't quit the job in fear of losing both couch and the potato he nourished for so long. Of course, both proles and the elevated experience ecstatic moments, but in different fashion. These moments always belong to the irrational part of human behavior.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Wolfgang on October 19, 2010, 01:02:49 PM
Shh dude. Don't buzzkill the octopus intelligence high they're riding. You'll just be seen as a hater.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Dead_Soul on October 20, 2010, 01:06:34 PM
Only humans consciously plan future actions while living with one foot in the future, disconnected from immediacy, preserving the temporary continuity of their existence.

Not many do that.  Most people are entirely concerned with the present.

I wouldn't agree. For instance, if you consider some low brow crook, his goal might be a night spent with a bottle of hooch and a decent whore, but most of his time will be spent planning and executing the robbery. A shot of adrenalin during the robbery might raise him to a higher level, but the only moments spent in the present will be connected with alcoholic delirium, intercourse and especially ejaculation. A couch potato will dream about TV during work-time, but won't quit the job in fear of losing both couch and the potato he nourished for so long. Of course, both proles and the elevated experience ecstatic moments, but in different fashion. These moments always belong to the irrational part of human behavior.
This may not address your objection, but check this out(bear in mind that these aren't the only instances of this sort of behavior).
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15204018/
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/38350/banana-plantations-counter-elephant-menace.html
http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/15/stories/2008101557540300.htm

Here we see elephants formulating and carrying out plans, though they may or may not be conscious of their mortality. Their raids are frequently successful as well.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: metal on metal on October 20, 2010, 01:24:17 PM
Here we see elephants formulating and carrying out plans, though they may or may not be conscious of their mortality. Their raids are frequently successful as well.

While reading the article on Mexican Metal, I gave a thought about the importance of conscious experience of death through sacrifice. Fruits of the typical human development in nature (manifested in all ancient cultures, as we know them) all reek of the awareness I find obligatory to denote as fundamental.
Title: Re: Cephalopods
Post by: Dead_Soul on October 20, 2010, 01:33:52 PM
That's more of a symbolic gesture, but I get your point.