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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: JewishPhysics on October 16, 2010, 04:08:09 PM

Title: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: JewishPhysics on October 16, 2010, 04:08:09 PM
Quote
Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

...

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits.

...

Earlier this week, Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, CSU, said about integration that it was "obvious that immigrants from different cultures like Turkey and Arab countries, all in all, find it harder".

"'Multikulti' is dead," Mr Seehofer said.

BBC Article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451)

Gee, I wonder what kind of comparisons to past political figures will be made?
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Spectrum on October 16, 2010, 07:44:12 PM
Gee, I wonder what kind of comparisons to past political figures will be made?

Yeah, but the fact is that multiculturalism doesn't have a good past and it causes a lot of disputes (senseless ones but they occur often). 
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Umbrage on October 17, 2010, 12:10:41 AM
Bear in mind that progressive left wingers also call multiculture a failure these days. It depends on how multiculture is criticized of course.

Some related news:

Quote
BERLIN
In midst of the immigration debate in Germany, Turkey's European Affairs Minister Egemen Bagis called on Turkish immigrants to "adapt to the customs."

"Learn German! Adjust to the customs and conventions of your host country," Bagis said in an interview published in the Bild. "Send your children to the best schools so they will have a future!"

http://www.newkerala.com/news/world/fullnews-61440.html

You're at the bottom of the ocean and fish are swimming through your rotten carcass: "Hey guys let's learn how to swim!"


Back to the article OP posted:

Quote
In her speech, the chancellor specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany" like Christianity and Judaism.

See any similarities? The mantra of "they're part of us, they belong here" is being repeated everywhere by the most socialist people (including Obama) And it's usually the "Christianity-Judaism-Islam" connection they'll speak of. Should tell you something about how Islam will eventually be tolerated in the west: as another form of secular humanism.

Hypocritical Radical islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzUO8mo3ZiQ) has failed to achieve anything great or lasting (and talk about a supposed elite group that anyone can join, hah!) Time to move on folks. We've been living in the golden age of the Deranged Loner for a few years now in case you haven't noticed: Pekka-Eric Auvinen and Matti Juhani Saari, Karst Tates, James Jae Lee, Mitchell Heisman, the list goes on. They can easily prevent radical islam attacking society from the outside but they can't prevent burnouts attacking society from the inside. Happy days (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMxkMy9JvXI).
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Wolfgang on October 17, 2010, 01:59:58 AM
So, Germany, what are you going to do about it? The rest of Europe? White Americans can up-root, and coagulate together easier since our ties to the land itself are less rigid and cultural specific, so the strife in some places in the USA will be mitigated due to migration, but things might be different in Europe. Things might get old-school ugly there.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: hoodwink on October 17, 2010, 08:25:46 AM
check out CNN's "coverage"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/17/germany.merkel.multiculturalism/index.html?hpt=T2

I find three things interesting about this:
1. The brevity of the story
2. The typo in the Chancellor's statement   
3. The arbitrary stats about Muslims

It's not possible liberal mouthpiece CNN is trying to discredit the story, is it?
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Spectrum on October 17, 2010, 10:01:52 AM
In response to the whole Islam thing:  why are you "moderate" or "peaceful" muslims not being extremely vocal?  I don't see enough of them doing anything.  They complain about being discriminated in both U.S. and Europe, and yet they are not calling for a fully separatist movement.  Anyhow, it's about time this humanistic, multicultural notion dissipates.  It isn't working, and I don't see enough arguments for the healthier alternatives out there.  If people would be more educated then I think the fear of "fascism" would be much less dramatic.  There are too many drama queens and people who play on fear, that's why extreme multiculturalism is winning at the moment.  Many libertarians such as myself are against a lot of these liberal qualms, but we end up getting painted as fascist by left-wingers as well (I've had experiences myself on the NationStates forum).
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Wolfgang on October 17, 2010, 10:12:21 AM
Spectrum you're a nazi. NAZI PUNX FUK OFF
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: nether on October 17, 2010, 11:59:28 AM
Anyhow, it's about time this humanistic, multicultural notion dissipates.  It isn't working, and I don't see enough arguments for the healthier alternatives out there.  If people would be more educated then I think the fear of "fascism" would be much less dramatic.  There are too many drama queens and people who play on fear, that's why extreme multiculturalism is winning at the moment.  Many libertarians such as myself are against a lot of these liberal qualms, but we end up getting painted as fascist by left-wingers as well (I've had experiences myself on the NationStates forum).

There's Fascism, there's Communism, and there's Democracy.  Democracy is good, and it's the way our forefathers, in deep communion with the word of God, understood that a country must be run.  Anything that's not Democracy is either Communism or Fascism, and those are bad.  Plus, they don't work.

/end mimicry

Everything gets simplified in the public arena.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Mikey on October 17, 2010, 03:02:44 PM
multiculturalism is not a failed experiment, it never was an experiment in the first place. it is an attack on the indigenous disguised as an experiment. if you considered it an experiment you'd either have to say it is a failure or just deny reality. ancient rome tried it and it led to the collapse of rome. it was also the death of the ottoman empire in the middle east.

as far as misnomers like fascism and democracy- there are no true democracies, only "representative democracies" which is just flat out fake democracy ruled by the elite. the people have no say in what we call "democracy". also what we've been calling "capitalism" in the western world is really fascism, as the corporations own the politicians. the modern use of the word "fascism" or "fascist" is just a leftist smear against the right as what is called "fascist" has absolutely nothing to do with mussolini's doctrine, world war 2 italy or corporate takeover of government. the word "nazi" these days is also just a leftist smear word for anyone who disagrees with them.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Spectrum on October 17, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
multiculturalism is not a failed experiment, it never was an experiment in the first place. it is an attack on the indigenous disguised as an experiment. if you considered it an experiment you'd either have to say it is a failure or just deny reality. ancient rome tried it and it led to the collapse of rome. it was also the death of the ottoman empire in the middle east.

as far as misnomers like fascism and democracy- there are no true democracies, only "representative democracies" which is just flat out fake democracy ruled by the elite. the people have no say in what we call "democracy". also what we've been calling "capitalism" in the western world is really fascism, as the corporations own the politicians. the modern use of the word "fascism" or "fascist" is just a leftist smear against the right as what is called "fascist" has absolutely nothing to do with mussolini's doctrine, world war 2 italy or corporate takeover of government. the word "nazi" these days is also just a leftist smear word for anyone who disagrees with them.

Very straightforward and accurate, agreed.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: wahn on October 17, 2010, 03:59:07 PM
Im wondering whether this public debate, with which I completely agree, in some way or another legitimizes the Nationaist Part (NPD).

Unfortauntely, I cant see any real solutions to the proble. Sure,you can twake immigration policy, but your still left with breeding turks in the country and there is nothing the government can really do to counteract this.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Mikey on October 17, 2010, 04:48:34 PM
"ure,you can twake immigration policy, but your still left with breeding turks in the country and there is nothing the government can really do to counteract this. "

there's always expulsion, which I believe to be the inevitable second part of their plan after stopping immigration. I agree with them on that but I think the sorbs deserve their own state as well.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: nether on October 17, 2010, 05:08:28 PM
Yes but multiculturalism can be traced back a lot further than we tend to consider.  It's neither an experiment nor a trend, but something that is happening whether we like it or not.

I don't see how it can fail, really.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Spectrum on October 17, 2010, 05:11:47 PM
Yes but multiculturalism can be traced back a lot further than we tend to consider.  It's neither an experiment nor a trend, but something that is happening whether we like it or not.

I don't see how it can fail, really.  The world nation is nearly upon us my friends.


With all genetic content/subjects aside, you've obviously ignored some history and current disputes. 
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: hamburgmatt on October 17, 2010, 06:34:04 PM
No doubt mutliculti is a failed delusion... but as for the article, if you read further into it you might notice that Mrs Merkel defends multiculturalism with the statement "We should not be a country either which gives the impression to the outside world that those who don't speak German immediately or who were not raised speaking German are not welcome here." etc. Whatever comments Mrs Merkel may have uttered were no doubt the sort of pandering you'll find from politicians at a Tea Party gathering - a lot of nothing. She merely wants a better process of "integration".
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 12:18:27 AM
So what will happen to all the third and forth generation bastardized immigrants once expulsion starts. They can't "go home" anymore than they can stay, can they?
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Mikey on October 18, 2010, 12:31:10 AM
when you expel a group of people, you obviously do not care about what happens to them. it's just an alternative to extermination. if their own kind does not want them back, I think the result will be very grim for them.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Umbrage on October 18, 2010, 12:41:52 AM
If Bulgaria is willing to take back the criminal French gypsies then why wouldn't Turkey accept back their own people who have had the privilege of studying at European schools? The failures will still be failures but that doesn't matter, there's always plenty of room in Turkish prisons. The third and fourth generation immigrants are likely much more educated than their predecessors so I think Turkey won't mind taking them back in the end. Hell, any male with a Turkish passport still has to do military service in Turkey (or buy his way out) Whether they have lived all their life in a different country doesn't matter. So in that sense it wouldn't be so strange anyway.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: metal on metal on October 18, 2010, 12:49:05 AM
What Wolfgang said was "bastardized"- as in half-German, for instance. Should there be place for half-Germans in Turkey?
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Umbrage on October 18, 2010, 01:19:31 AM
What Wolfgang said was "bastardized"- as in half-German, for instance. Should there be place for half-Germans in Turkey?

As long as they're not Kurdish I guess it's ok.

Seriously: I don't know. It's more of a legal matter than anything else, so it usually depends on how far naturalized somebody is. I don't live in Germany so I don't know how the naturalization system works there. In the Netherlands if a child is born from two nationalities he automatically gets two nationalities and also two passports. He enjoys both the privileges and both the requirements of the two nationalities (for instance Turks who are born in Europe are still required to do military service in Turkey, although most pay it off with just a small fine) There are a lot of other countries that also allow two nationalities, in some the person will automatically lose his second nationality after being fully naturalized (whatever that means in that country) while other countries don't allow people to lose their second nationality and they will forever have two. Based on those laws it would be possible to return people to their original countries but it depends from country to country. And it gets even trickier when the EU is involved but luckily the EU doesn't have that much power yet (compared to what they want)

It's funny because in my country having two passports is generally seen as an obstacle to fully integrating. But fully naturalizing people could be a legal obstacle to sending them back some day. As usual it's hard to please the crowd...
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Mikey on October 18, 2010, 01:38:57 AM
"Should there be place for half-Germans in Turkey?"
anatolian turks are a mix of populations anyway. they consider themselves white too ever since ataturk (even though they are not considered pure enough by european standards), they have absorbed much europoean blood during the ottoman empire because of harems filled with balkan slave women. I do not think turkey would have a problem with that if the choice was take them back or they are wiped out.
I think even considering minorities in germany is absolutely criminal when you know what has happened and what continues to happen to the indigenous wends (sorbs) who have been their before the germans and are still there. they face germanization (which would be the death of their culture) everyday and they are not foreigners.

"If Bulgaria is willing to take back the criminal French gypsies"
the bulgarian people do not want them back, their government just like all modern governments ignores the will of the people. gypsies are not welcome anywhere in europe, especially places where there's lots of them like the balkans. gypsies really do need their own state. europe is the smallest of all continents, so preferably in the americas where the indigenous do not exist anyway.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Umbrage on October 18, 2010, 01:47:53 AM
Some more related news from a year ago:

Quote
Almost Half of Turkish Migrants Want to Leave

This week, results of the first study comparing opinions of Germans, Turks and Turks living in Germany were announced. There were some grounds to celebrate integration but there were also problems. Many immigrants say they feel out of place in both countries, almost half want to return home and Turkish youth are becoming more conservative than their elders.

There are almost three million Turkish people living in Germany and, according to a new study released this week, almost half of them intend to return to Turkey at some stage. And interestingly, more younger Turks want to return to Turkey than their elders.

This is despite the fact that almost two thirds of respondents to the study (61 percent altogether)-- one of the first polls to compare the world views of around a thousand individuals from Turkey, Germany and the Turkish population living in Germany -- had been born in Germany or had been living in the country for over 30 years. Turks are the largest ethnic minority in Germany and make up almost 4 percent of the country's population. Yet only 21 percent of those polled feel happy to call Germany home.

In fact, over half of the Turks living in Germany (62 percent) said that when they are in the country they felt like Turks. But when they were in Turkey they felt like Germans. A significant percentage of the migrants (45 percent) felt that they were not wanted in Germany and only 54 percent believed that Turks and Germans had the same educational opportunities.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,662520,00.html

Torn between two worlds. Humanists cry out: "There should only be one world!" Realists know there isn't, realists know that the more people try to create one world the more friction there will be and the more cultural differences will become painfully obvious. Realists said this 20-30 years ago and they were called racists. Now, because people are actually listening to them, they are called populist racists. But humanists are the real racists because they don't want to see the differences between races, now that is racist! In their perfect future there will be only one gray race, only one consumerist culture - ein volk, ein reich, ein humanistische diktator! (and that concludes my Godwins for today)

Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: metal on metal on October 18, 2010, 10:22:59 AM
I do not think turkey would have a problem with that if the choice was take them back or they are wiped out.

As the matters are turning out, that situation is not very probable. I agree with your motives, but the forces underlying the momentary situation are still too strong to surrender. If they collapse soon, the result will be unpredictable, even if it's easy to imagine it will bring more miscegenation.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 11:36:54 AM
Will India welcome back all their people? China?

These people wouldn't really be Indian or Chinese anymore would they?

How many of these people coagulate together in areas in the former United States controlled by non European populations?

With this force the creation of one or more "bastard states?"
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: metal on metal on October 18, 2010, 11:45:15 AM
Bastard states would be the solution if anyone was willing to surrender territory. This scenario could be possible through armed conquest though, the prerequisite being the conquering force's interest in forming such states.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Wolfgang on October 18, 2010, 11:53:13 AM
I don't think there will be any escaping a future where part of the US opts to continue living in a multiracial society. Some version claiming to be in the spirit of America as we know it now. These people would probably face immigration from those kicked out of Europe if they like it or not.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: Conservationist on October 18, 2010, 02:57:08 PM
The mantra of "they're part of us, they belong here" is being repeated everywhere by the most socialist people (including Obama) And it's usually the "Christianity-Judaism-Islam" connection they'll speak of. Should tell you something about how Islam will eventually be tolerated in the west: as another form of secular humanism.

Conservatives = natural selection/Social Darwinism

Liberals = government-enforced equality, which requires internationalism (obliteration of race, ethny, culture, values and even unique languages)

The left is trying to standardize us.

It has been 65 years since Hitler fell -- he's dead, it's over. We need to realize that the New Good was just the Old Evil (1789 France) dressed up in new clothes, and depose it.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: metal on metal on October 18, 2010, 03:04:49 PM
Conservatives = natural selection/Social Darwinism

Political conservatives fulfill all the key requests of liberalism, as dictated by the owners of material wealth. That's natural selection.
Title: Re: German Politician Declares Multiculturalism a Failure
Post by: JewishPhysics on October 20, 2010, 03:05:20 PM
Pat Buchanan weighs in. (http://buchanan.org/blog/tribalism-returns-to-europe-4528)
Quote
Is Europe’s adventure in international living about to end?

At Potsdam, Germany, this weekend, Chancellor Angela Merkel told the young conservatives of her Christian Democratic Union that Germany’s attempt to create a multicultural society where people “live side by side and enjoy each other” has “failed, utterly failed.”

Backing up her rueful admission are surveys showing 30 percent of Germans believe the country is overrun by foreigners. An equal number believe the foreigners come to feed off German welfare.

Merkel had in mind the Turks who came as gastarbeiters, guest workers, in the 1960s. Some 2.5 million now live in Germany.

Arabs and East Europeans have come more recently. One survey puts the Muslim population at 5 million.

“Multikulti is dead,” says Horst Seehofer of Merkel’s sister party, the Christian Social Union of Bavaria. He wants no more immigration from “alien cultures.” Turks and other Muslims are not learning the language, he contends, not assimilating, not becoming Germans.

Awareness of deep differences with Turkish neighbors became acute for Germans when, grieving in solidarity with America after 9/11, they learned that Turkish sectors of Berlin were celebrating Islam’s victory with barrages of bottle rockets.

Like all of Europe, Germany grows nervous.

This summer, Thilo Sarrazin, who sat on the Bundesbank board, published “Germany Abolishes Itself,” which sold 300,000 copies in seven weeks. Sarrazin argued that Germany’s Muslim population is intellectually inferior and unable or unwilling to learn the language or culture, and mass immigration is destroying the nation.

No rightist, but a stalwart of the socialist party, Sarrazin was forced out at the Bundesbank. Half his socialist party stood by him.

Across Europe, there is a resurgence of ethnonationalism that is feeding the ranks of populist and anti-immigrant parties that are gaining respectability and reaching for power.

Austrian nationalists triumphed in 2008 when the Freedom Party of Joerg Haider and the Alliance for the Future of Austria together took 29 percent of the vote. The Swiss People’s Party of Christoph Blocher, largest in Bern, was behind the successful referendum to change the constitution to outlaw minarets and prohibit the wearing of burqas.

Hungary’s Jobbik Party, which to the Financial Times “sits squarely in Europe’s most repulsive arch-nationalist tradition and which blames Jews and Roma for the hardships of other Hungarians,” pulled 17 percent of the vote this year and entered parliament with 47 seats, up from zero seats in 2006.

The Sweden Democrats just captured 6 percent of the vote and entered parliament for the first time with 20 seats, joining right-wing folk parties in Norway and Denmark.

Geert Wilders, a rising figure in Dutch politics, was charged with hate speech for equating Islam and Nazism. In June, his Freedom Party swept past the ruling Christian Democrats, who lost half of their strength in parliament. “More security, less crime, less immigration, less Islam — that is what the Netherlands has chosen,” said Wilders.

In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy — one eye on Jean-Marie Le Pen’s National Front, the other on the 2012 elections — rejecting cries of “Nazism” and “Vichyism,” is dismantling Gypsy camps and deporting Gypsies to Romania. Milan is now following the French lead.

What is happening in Europe partakes of a global trend. Multiracial, multi-ethnic, multicultural nations are disintegrating.

Russians battle ethnic Muslim separatists in the North Caucasus. Seventy percent of Americans support an Arizona law to identify and expel illegal aliens. Beijing swamps the homelands of Tibetans and Uighurs with Han Chinese. India fights secession in Kashmir, Nagaland and the Naxalite provinces.

“Wars between nations have given way to wars within nations, ” said Barack Obama in his Nobel Prize address.

Ethnonationalism tore Mikhail Gorbachev’s Soviet Union and Josip Tito’s Yugoslavia into 22 separate nations, and is now tugging at the seams of all multi-ethnic states. Globalism is in retreat before tribalism.

But the awakening of Europe’s establishment to the shallow roots of multiculturalism will likely prove frustrating and futile.

With her fertility rate below replacement levels for 40 years, projected to remain so for the next 40 years, Germany will lose 12 million of her 82 million people by 2050. Her median age will rise eight years to 53, and 40 percent of all Germans will be over 60.

Germany’s problem is insoluble. She is running out of Germans.

Yet if her welfare state is to survive and her industries are to remain competitive, Germany will need millions of new workers.

Where are they to come from, if not the Third World? For not one European nation, save Iceland and Albania, has had a birth rate for decades that is not below zero population growth.

Baby boomer Europe decided in the 1960s and 1970s it wanted La Dolce Vita, not the hassle of children. It had that sweet life. Now the bill comes due. And the bill is the end of their tribes and countries as we have known them.

Old Europe is dying, and the populist and nationalist parties, in the poet’s phrase, are simply raging “against the dying of the light.”