100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: Umbrage on May 14, 2011, 10:05:17 AM

Title: Suicide
Post by: Umbrage on May 14, 2011, 10:05:17 AM
Suicide is a very diverse act that can have a billion motives. From the mighty samurai committing seppuku to preserve their honor, to emos cutting their wrists because they experience life as suffering, to suicide bombers trying to take down as many people with them for ideological reasons. Often sung about by death metal bands (http://youtu.be/HzC2lhFgBMw), regularly committed by black metal artists (http://youtu.be/7IJovmgDJPY). Suicide seems to be an integral part of metal, possibly because it is part of the harsh realities of life that the mainstream either denies or wraps up in candy paper (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH0vjLwMyc4).

What are your thoughts about suicide? And where is the line between self-pity and preserving honor?
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: diesel on May 14, 2011, 12:06:04 PM
I'm fine with it, and it's fully understandable. People always whittle it down to a simple issue of self esteem when it's WAY more complex than that.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: JSPAG on May 14, 2011, 01:56:44 PM
I suppose i'm a bit ambivalent to it. As you pointed out, suicide to preserve one's honor can be seen as a heroic and defiant final act. An act which displays to his enemies, his ultimate refusal to submit to defeat and/or enslavement. German officers as well as the Samurai often chose suicide over surrender. However Kurt Cobain-esque type suicides in my eyes, reflect no honor whatsoever. Pity and self-loathing are good reasons to kill yourself I suppose, hence my ambivalence. Suicide like everything else depends on context and to a lesser degree, circumstance.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: diesel on May 14, 2011, 02:06:02 PM
In some parts of the world suicide after you have done the greatest accomplishment of your life is actually considered honorable. In western societies it's a " problem", a deplorable and illegal(LOL) act. One reason is that we need high population numbers for businesses to work from.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Umbrage on May 14, 2011, 02:33:47 PM
In some parts of the world suicide after you have done the greatest accomplishment of your life is actually considered honorable. In western societies it's a " problem", a deplorable and illegal(LOL) act. One reason is that we need high population numbers for businesses to work from.

Good point. Many businesses need dumb people with no self-esteem to work for them, and short-term visionaries with overinflated egos to play the boss.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Conservationist on May 15, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
What are your thoughts about suicide? And where is the line between self-pity and preserving honor?

There are many reasons why people commit suicide.

I accept it when people with terminal illnesses do it. I include biological depression in the above.

Otherwise, what's the point? Die in battle, or apply yourself; don't waste the gift that God/life/randomness/Xenu has given you.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Mithrandir on May 26, 2013, 11:29:51 AM
What about this sort of thing:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sri-lanka-monk-dies-after-selfimmolation/1120867/
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: istaros on May 31, 2013, 01:17:20 AM
Once I came across G. K. Chesterton's rant on the matter, it was difficult to see it any other way:

“Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one’s self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say 'poor fellow,' of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane. Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer’s suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man’s crime is different from other crimes – for it makes even crimes impossible.”

Hopeless people do not merit inclusion in the same category as kamikaze pilots. Those are hardly suicides in the same way wrist-cutters and overdosers are. This applies to suicide bombers and school shooters as well, albeit to a lesser degree since their acts show more insanity than effectiveness. The kamikaze pilot is not suicidal, but sacrificial.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Walt on May 31, 2013, 08:02:16 AM
I agree with Istaros' quote. Killing oneself is generally a sign of being a raging faggot.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: NHA on May 31, 2013, 09:04:24 PM
Quote
When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront.

Seems to articulate well the root cause of the usual butthurt reactions seen when the topic of suicide is brought up. Inevitably, some risk averse prole, zombieing his way through life, will chime in with "SUICIDE IS FOR COWARDS!".

Suicide can either be practical, vanity, or an irrational impulse depending on the context.


related interesting discussion: http://www.galilean-library.org/site/index.php/topic/270-kirilovs-dilemma/
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Walt on June 01, 2013, 07:33:57 AM
Quote
Suicide can either be practical, vanity, or an irrational impulse depending on the context.

Why do metalheads seek gallantry in giving up and killing yourself? Suicide is for quitters, yo. I guess you could argue a case for the terminally ill, the illogically suicidal, the amazingly heroic etc etc, but these are statistical outliers, most people who kill themselves are well, pussies.

Quote
In the late 1970s, Seiden set out to test the notion of inevitability in jumping suicides. Obtaining a Police Department list of all would-be jumpers who were thwarted from leaping off the Golden Gate between 1937 and 1971 — an astonishing 515 individuals in all — he painstakingly culled death-certificate records to see how many had subsequently “completed.” His report, “Where Are They Now?” remains a landmark in the study of suicide, for what he found was that just 6 percent of those pulled off the bridge went on to kill themselves. Even allowing for suicides that might have been mislabeled as accidents only raised the total to 10 percent.

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print&

Most suicides are spur of the moment decisions, given adequate contemplation most people will reconsider. You can talk all you want about the honour in killing yourself, but I feel you're discussing an entirely unrelated topic. The object then isn't killing oneself but in the reason for it. This does not ennoble suicide by proxy. Calling it a 'cowards way out' is a bit of a cop out because confronting the vast scary beyond doesn't seem cowardly- however thats only examining one side of the coin. Making a rash decision to terminate your existence isn't cowardly, its just stupid--> istaros quote.

Terry Pratchett has alzheimers and has made a documentary about suicide (http://'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZnfC-V1SY'), I would consider him among the heroic few who are killing themselves unwillingly because circumstances force their hand. His attitude is 'heroic' because he isn't shying from his situation, he isn't heroic because he is contemplating killing himself. That is similar to conflating the means and the end. Death is sad, there is nothing to celebrate about it, one can accept it however. 

Death creates nothing.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: NHA on June 01, 2013, 11:45:08 AM
Bridge jumpers are a pretty interesting phenomenon. In some areas there will be two bridges with equal suicide potential yet people will overwhelmingly gravitate towards one over the other and if a barrier is placed at the preferred location most people wont be bothered to walk the 1mile to the other nearby bridge.

Quote
most people who kill themselves are well, pussies.
Based on what? Life in modern society is hardly challenging. Even if you're completely useless all you need to do is commit some petty crime and get thrown in jail and you wont have to worry about food or shelter.

What does the average person contribute to society? Not much. A large portion of low skilled work could probably be replaced by software at this point. Besides, the largest population demographic for suicide is eldery white men 75+ years old. What are they missing out on? What is society missing out on? Not much.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: death-metal on June 01, 2013, 12:30:16 PM
The people who need to kill themselves are rarely the ones who do. The smart ones do too often. I think GKC is onto something in that all forms of escape -- drugs, drink, liberalism (haha), suicide, promiscuity except with sheep -- cause us to stop viewing life as something holy with which we must engage. And soon, disengaging is just too easy...

Fear of living on
Natives getting restless now
Mutiny in the air
Got some death to do
Mirror stares back hard
Kill, it's such a friendly word
Seems the only way
For reaching out again.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: aquarius on June 01, 2013, 05:37:13 PM
                           
                                  Sue is fine
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Corpse on June 07, 2013, 01:10:29 AM
I've been on and off considering suicide ever since I was 12. First the deterrent was a lack of planning and opportunity, next was fear of dying (but not death itself), after which was fear of Hell, followed by empathy for my loved ones. Now, I'm not really sure what's holding me back; perhaps a mix of the last 3, in smaller quantities. I feel it's only a matter of time now, though I'm at a loss as to how long that is.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: lost_wanderer on June 07, 2013, 10:53:00 AM
humans wouldn't be totally free on a fondamental level if they weren't able to suicide.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Annihilation on June 09, 2013, 05:47:23 AM
The people I've known to have any kind of suicidal thoughts were mentally unstable (at the time). Pretty sure that's all it comes down to.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: diesel on June 11, 2013, 04:04:45 PM
Suicide is wrong because most people don't do it on a philosophical basis. They do it when they've temporarily lost at evolution, in an emotional fit. usually the cause is fixable.
I have no problems at all with old people killing themselves, the deformed, the infertile, etc.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: aquarius on June 11, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
Suicide is wrong because most people don't do it on a philosophical basis. They do it when they've temporarily lost at evolution, in an emotional fit. usually the cause is fixable.
I have no problems at all with old people killing themselves, the deformed, the infertile, etc.

Your viewpoint seems to put humanity in the same evolutionary equation as all other organisms, but I think it might be too complex a situation for that to apply.

As I see it, people that have children without following it through to make sure they grow into worthwhile people are only polluting the world by adding to it's dysfuntion. And there's plenty of that going on.

On the other hand you could have people in positions of social, cultural or political influence that bring about positive change in the world without having produced any children of their own. In other words seeing humans as part of a greater 'social organism' rather than just individuals.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: MahaVindex on June 12, 2013, 04:17:04 PM
When did human life become more important than everything? What's wrong with suicide? We have seven billion people on the planet.....you wont be missed.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Saif al-Malik on June 12, 2013, 07:50:52 PM
Bridge jumpers are a pretty interesting phenomenon. In some areas there will be two bridges with equal suicide potential yet people will overwhelmingly gravitate towards one over the other and if a barrier is placed at the preferred location most people wont be bothered to walk the 1mile to the other nearby bridge.

Quote
most people who kill themselves are well, pussies.
Based on what? Life in modern society is hardly challenging. Even if you're completely useless all you need to do is commit some petty crime and get thrown in jail and you wont have to worry about food or shelter.

What does the average person contribute to society? Not much. A large portion of low skilled work could probably be replaced by software at this point. Besides, the largest population demographic for suicide is eldery white men 75+ years old. What are they missing out on? What is society missing out on? Not much.

Life can lack fulfillment and be dreary for that sheer reason.  For some people who do not have the capability to perceive true wisdom and wonder, life becomes difficult.  As far as suicide, it could only be considered somewhat honorable in a context of altruism.  The Japanese samurai, Shaolin warrior-monk, or German knight, or Saracen ghazi who restored his honor through a type of suicide often did so to protect his fellows and family.  Rivals could have mercy and adopt the family into their own system, preserving the honor of the family instead of them becoming disgraced.  There was no desire for pity, and these lofty deeds are seen in good people in the modern world who die jumping on grenades, storming machine gun nests, or destroying the fortifications of the enemy.

For the modern, suicide can be related to the ego and the self.  While seeking the death of the self in the only way they know, they cling to aggrandizement of it in a gruesome moment.  Not knowing of a "way", they discard their body without knowing the fate they condemn themselves to.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Phoenix on June 13, 2013, 09:07:08 PM
I've been on and off considering suicide ever since I was 12. First the deterrent was a lack of planning and opportunity, next was fear of dying (but not death itself), after which was fear of Hell, followed by empathy for my loved ones. Now, I'm not really sure what's holding me back; perhaps a mix of the last 3, in smaller quantities. I feel it's only a matter of time now, though I'm at a loss as to how long that is.

Don't worry, you'll go eventually. I wait patiently for my demise, simply because the only alternative is to wait impatiently. Why would I want to do that?
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Corpse on June 13, 2013, 10:06:33 PM
For some people who do not have the capability to perceive true wisdom and wonder, life becomes difficult. 

The only wonder I've experienced in life is when listening to black metal; and most of those artists either promote suicide or did it themselves.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: whiskeyhammer on July 01, 2013, 11:36:29 AM
I have no problem with it. Life is largely unpleasant, mostly due to the people one has to share the planet with. Nevermind the seemingly meaningless of the trudge through life.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Squarekiller23 on July 01, 2013, 11:54:23 AM
When did human life become more important than everything? What's wrong with suicide? We have seven billion people on the planet.....you wont be missed.

Agreed. From the context of the suicide, you can determine whether the person had a good reason to do so or not. But for the most part, one less person on the planet isn't that big of a deal. Same reason I support the death penalty.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: death-metal on July 01, 2013, 10:22:30 PM
When did human life become more important than everything? What's wrong with suicide? We have seven billion people on the planet.....you wont be missed.

Other than the insane, one group kills themselves more than others: the smart and sensitive.

I don't think they're defectives. In fact, I know they're not. I understand where they're coming from.

My will is to live, but that may be because instead of learning to be human, I spent my youth in the forest.

It doesn't mean we miss them less.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Humanicide on July 05, 2013, 08:31:16 PM
If I kill myself, I wanna not shit for like 2 weeks, then go to the top of a really tall building, strapped with explosives, jump, then detonate 3/4ths of the way down. (with any luck a crowd would form too)

Shit and guts everywhere. Fuck, I'd probably be a master of modern art if I did that.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Corpse on July 05, 2013, 10:33:13 PM
If I kill myself, I wanna not shit for like 2 weeks

That would pretty much do it.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Humanicide on July 06, 2013, 01:16:49 AM
If I kill myself, I wanna not shit for like 2 weeks

That would pretty much do it.

Naw, I could still be alive at that point. I'd be pretty sick, but alive.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: death metal black metal on July 06, 2013, 06:39:09 AM
If I kill myself, I wanna not shit for like 2 weeks, then go to the top of a really tall building, strapped with explosives, jump, then detonate 3/4ths of the way down.

The trick to this would be distribution of explosives over the body so as to rupture the organ sac and spray it outward without unduly cooking or incinerating the contents. This sounds more like knitting yourself a mesh jumpsuit of detcord than strapping a chunk of C-4 to your forehead for your final ALLAHU ACKBAR!
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: trystero on July 06, 2013, 12:52:07 PM
Not shitting for two weeks would just fill you up with a dense, hard rock of crap and not the volume which would be ideal. The longer shit stays in your bowels the more water can be reabsorbed from it in the large intestine. I suggest the additional step of sewing your butthole shut and ingesting large amounts of osmotic laxatives before the dirty deed.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Humanicide on July 06, 2013, 04:10:17 PM
I had planned on horrible greasy fast foods as a main diet, with lots of sugar to ensure liquidy matter and then ingesting laxatives right before jumping. Would probably tape it shut to prevent preemptive explosions in the pants.

My stomach would probably start to distend, but in the end it would be all part of the plan.


SIDNOTE: Conversations like these are one of the reasons that I come to this forum, haha.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: dead last on July 07, 2013, 09:03:53 AM
The original post opened me up to something that I'd never thought of before, not even during the many times in the past where suicide was at the forefront of my mind (more as a moral question than an option). There are indeed a billion motives for suicide, but we only have one word for it, regardless of the circumstances or motives surrounding the death.

Consider how many ways we can describe a death when two (or more) people are involved; murder, assassination, mercy killing, justified self-defense, revenge, manslaughter (say, if one killed another out of carelessness rather than malice). But we don't have many ways to describe the motive behind a suicide. It's just automatically "suicide", and all that implies.

So is this intentional? Do we want to cover all self-inflicted deaths under a blanket term so that people will hear all the negative connotations along with the word? Or is it just a result of the laziness of English speakers in the USA? Clearly other cultures demonstrate an understanding of the differences in suicidal motives (the Japanese seppuku and kamekazi were a great example).
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: crow on July 07, 2013, 11:13:54 AM
People like it simple. Tidy. Easy.
There is, however, another word that gets used when suicide doesn't seem to fit...
"Accident".
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Corpse on July 08, 2013, 12:23:49 AM
“Of the demonstrably wise there are but two: those who commit suicide, & those who keep their reasoning faculties atrophied with drink.”

― Mark Twain
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Wild on July 08, 2013, 12:59:26 AM
That sounds stupid.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Corpse on July 08, 2013, 01:28:44 AM
I guess so. How about this one

“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?”

― Albert Camus
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Wild on July 08, 2013, 01:49:07 AM
I'd have to know you better before answering.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Corpse on July 08, 2013, 02:09:41 AM
In relation to the last 2 quotes, all I can say is i'm not in the mood for drinking.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Wild on July 08, 2013, 02:56:12 AM
Well, if you want to demonstrate your wisdom, you know what must be done.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: crow on July 08, 2013, 10:34:40 AM
Callous halfwits.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Jim Necroslaughter on July 08, 2013, 04:59:38 PM
“Of the demonstrably wise there are but two: those who commit suicide, & those who keep their reasoning faculties atrophied with drink.”

― Mark Twain
Twain is being sarcastic.  Twain was a humorist through and through; he's not serious whatsoever.  I'm a Mark Twain fan, myself, and I would recommend to you "Roughing It." 
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: crow on July 08, 2013, 05:39:36 PM
Suicide is one of those horribly terminal decisions.
The last decision one may ever make.
Best not to joke about, or encourage, such irreparable acts.
What if?
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Taradiddle Doodoo on July 29, 2013, 05:21:45 PM
The original post opened me up to something that I'd never thought of before, not even during the many times in the past where suicide was at the forefront of my mind (more as a moral question than an option). There are indeed a billion motives for suicide, but we only have one word for it, regardless of the circumstances or motives surrounding the death.

Consider how many ways we can describe a death when two (or more) people are involved; murder, assassination, mercy killing, justified self-defense, revenge, manslaughter (say, if one killed another out of carelessness rather than malice). But we don't have many ways to describe the motive behind a suicide. It's just automatically "suicide", and all that implies.

So is this intentional? Do we want to cover all self-inflicted deaths under a blanket term so that people will hear all the negative connotations along with the word? Or is it just a result of the laziness of English speakers in the USA? Clearly other cultures demonstrate an understanding of the differences in suicidal motives (the Japanese seppuku and kamekazi were a great example).

Attach "self-" to the cause of death: self-immolation, self-asphyxiation, self-inflicted bulletwound, it gets more rare after that.

Self-murder is rarely used, but it's another variant. You're right that the motive for suicide is never referred to. But in all cases including seppuku and kamikazi the ritual revolving around the suicide is referred to. Seppuku does not explain why someone committed suicide, it just refers to the ritual. Same with self-immolation or "hanging yourself" or whatever variant. And even though this would mean you could argue that people are more interested in knowing how someone died instead of why they died it's still fair to assume that especially historically people might not have a clue why someone committed suicide, they just know the method. Obviously if suicide is the way to avoid shame you're not going to say what you're so ashamed about before blowing out your own candle.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: dead last on July 29, 2013, 05:49:43 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. Kamikaze and seppuku do refer specifically to the physical acts that kill one. Seppuku as a ritual however was used in times where one decided that dying (even at one's own hand) was more noble than living with whatever mistakes might have brought such dishonor on oneself. This is still an unfathomable action in modern USA though; we don't have a word to describe it.

Nowadays people kill themselves out of frustration at failing to achieve social status or when they are practically too embarrassed to show their face to their friends and family. I think that is not so much my own position but it is pretty well known that modern suicide is not committed as to maintain one's noble or honorable status. So I agree with that last paragraph.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Taradiddle Doodoo on July 29, 2013, 06:16:36 PM
I think it's wrong to assume the reasons why someone chose to go. The reason why there's a taboo in the west surrounding suicide stems from monotheism. According to catholicism suicide is a one way trip to hell, in islam it's the greatest sin you can commit, in Judaism it is severely frowned upon.

In hinduism a person is allowed to commit prayopavesa, which is suicide by starvation. But only if this person truly has no ambitions left or is seriously ill.

I'm not sure about buddhism but I don't think there's a penalty for suicide.

Suicide by cop is an interesting way to go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnJLSqjTwE
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: crow on July 29, 2013, 07:05:41 PM
The penalty for suicide is DEATH!
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: grecocastro on July 30, 2013, 03:13:32 PM
these kinds of actions have base in pagan culture, occultists cut his forearms for get blood, with this they believe in the possibility to use this in the 27° dimension (the deamons prison), in my view, satanic start do this, latter black metal start o this, """gothics""" (montley crue fans) start do this, and the metalcore emos start do this.

ps: blood in the 27° dimension is money
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: dead last on July 30, 2013, 04:51:36 PM
I think it's wrong to assume the reasons why someone chose to go. The reason why there's a taboo in the west surrounding suicide stems from monotheism. According to catholicism suicide is a one way trip to hell, in islam it's the greatest sin you can commit, in Judaism it is severely frowned upon.

Then let's not assume; let's draw conclusions based on evidence.

Suicide as a term is too broad to describe self-inflicted termination because there is hardly a parallel between some whiner who kills himself because his parents won't buy him an iPhone* and a kamikaze pilot or a self-immolating monk.

You may be right about suicide being a taboo subject thanks to the monotheistic inundation that we experience in the West. That's interesting and I will think on that for a while. But let's keep in mind that monotheism (at least in the part of the West that I experience) is not so widely accepted as humanism (be that of the secular or superstitious flavor), and humanism posits that nothing in the universe is so precious as an individual life (which clearly flies in the face of the ideology of, say, a suicide bomber or kamikaze pilot).

I should hope that we can all agree that humanism is a laughable ideology but I don't assume.

*If you think this is hyperbolic or an oversimplification, then you are right, but it is not so inaccurate as we'd like to think.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Humanicide on July 30, 2013, 06:23:41 PM

I should hope that we can all agree that humanism is a laughable ideology but I don't assume.

You can assume away. Humanism was useful when there were like 1 million of us. Now? Not so much. Valuing a human just for being a human? No thanks, I'd like to get to know someone before I make a judgement on them.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: dead last on July 30, 2013, 07:13:10 PM

I should hope that we can all agree that humanism is a laughable ideology but I don't assume.

You can assume away. Humanism was useful when there were like 1 million of us. Now? Not so much. Valuing a human just for being a human? No thanks, I'd like to get to know someone before I make a judgement on them.

So now it's a matter of quality over quantity? I think that's a valid and even useful judgment context but that doesn't mean very much. (You can be sure of that each time I begin a sentence with "I think,"; such a statement is more of a disclaimer.)

If humanism was a useful ideology when there were 1 million humans and it got us to the historical point we occupy now, how useful was it really in the long run? Or can we even make a judgment on that?
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Humanicide on July 30, 2013, 07:36:35 PM
In the somewhat long run, it helped to proliferate our species across the globe. It led to development of great civilizations, and with that great achievements.

I think we can make a judgement; look at what overpopulation does to cities. Turns them into disgusting hovels. If this happened on a global scale, the results would be disastrous. At this point though the Western world and some parts of Asia and South America are not really at risk. It's mostly Africa and the more destitute parts of Asia/South America that have the population problems.

Nowadays (the super long run)? We have so many people in this world, that we can't possibly sustain all of them (not even counting more to come). Humanism is an irrelevant ideology when facing our modern problems. 
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: crow on July 30, 2013, 08:04:34 PM
Don't worry. The chance of really lethal pandemic coming along is very, very high.
Really, the only downside to that, is will it target enough of the right people?
Or the wrong people...

There's nothing like a killer plague to put humanism into perspective.
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: dead last on July 31, 2013, 03:54:50 AM
In other words, it would have been advantageous for ancient humans to stick with "Diet Humanism (Now with 40% less population than the other leading brands!)" rather than the full on humans-before-all belief that led to overpopulation.

Maybe if they had retained feudalism and human sacrifice we would be better off?
Title: Re: Suicide
Post by: Taradiddle Doodoo on August 01, 2013, 07:07:58 AM
You may be right about suicide being a taboo subject thanks to the monotheistic inundation that we experience in the West. That's interesting and I will think on that for a while. But let's keep in mind that monotheism (at least in the part of the West that I experience) is not so widely accepted as humanism (be that of the secular or superstitious flavor), and humanism posits that nothing in the universe is so precious as an individual life (which clearly flies in the face of the ideology of, say, a suicide bomber or kamikaze pilot).

Humanism has it's roots in the new testament. But humanism is also more subjective than you might think. We all know the term "mercy killing" but who defines when mercy is needed?

The effect of suicide used to be that you were not allowed to be buried in religious (christian/jewish/muslim) burial ground, or you got buried somewhere on some special spot where all the other people they considered dishonorable were buried. Now the effect of suicide is that's it's been milked so long and so much by the media (talk shows for the "survivors" and bullshit "psychology" articles in glossy magazines) that people began to imitate that. Meanwhile in the muslim community your family gets respect and payments if you'll "be a martyr" and blow yourself up for someone else's political games. So that's what's changed. I wouldn't blame humanism too much for it, it's just a cultural phenomenon based on the position of a civilization. And the third world might be overpopulated but the white races are diminishing, again we could blame that solely on humanism but it's not just humanism but everything that contributed to our current culture that created this abomination. Our culture is an extension of ourselves and in return our culture confirms for us what is right. It's a vicious circle in which garbage like humanism and Justin Bieber is throw and occasionally when we are lucky it gets thrown out again.


In other words, it would have been advantageous for ancient humans to stick with "Diet Humanism (Now with 40% less population than the other leading brands!)" rather than the full on humans-before-all belief that led to overpopulation.

Maybe if they had retained feudalism and human sacrifice we would be better off?

The Aztecs thought very highly of human sacrifice. Being sacrificed was seen as an honor (individually it was usually seen as a horror but culturally it was an honor) They kept their population nicely trimmed but they didn't accomplish as much as Europeans at the time. I also wonder how much of that Aztec culture remains to this day when I see beheading videos released by one of the Mexican drug cartels. Latinos sure like to spill blood, no wonder Slayer is half hispanic.