100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Metal => Topic started by: ChristianHolocaust on October 31, 2006, 05:17:39 PM

Title: Why did punk die?
Post by: ChristianHolocaust on October 31, 2006, 05:17:39 PM
When it came about, it was the most vital genre. Rock had turned into disco and flogging prog like later Yes, which was just terrible. Punk was a breath of fresh air. Five years later, it all sounded alike and people stopped caring at all. It's like a cycle that repeats through history... an idea occurs, then people imitate, then it loses value and all the fans run on to something else.

(http://www.animalinyou.com/sheep.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: ICONOCLAST_IS_GOD on October 31, 2006, 05:31:45 PM
Which is a good reason to keep the succesor to metal esoteric.  The proles can't be enlightened, give them their rock and we can have our good music.

I think whatever comes next has to utterly confuse the masses and have no image (like black metal did).  This way the masses will have no desire to "be hip."
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on October 31, 2006, 06:29:20 PM
What happened to it?  The same thing that happened to every good genre.  Labels signed every copy cat punk band they could to make as much money of the craze as they could.  Then an easier to listen to version of punk came out (New Wave) and all the big stars followed suit and thought that they had to make a New Wave album or fall behind.  By the end of the 80s, nobody liked Punk anymore because they were sick of it.  

Then Green Day came and now people think that's what punk is, so there will be no more good punk except by fans of the original punk rockers, who are just trying to keep the flame lite.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 01, 2006, 03:52:04 PM
It must have lost its luster during the mid-80s during the time hardcore became popular and around about the same time speed metal was being replaced by grindcore, death metal and black metal
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Dylar on November 01, 2006, 06:02:32 PM
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When it came about, it was the most vital genre. Rock had turned into disco and flogging prog like later Yes, which was just terrible. Punk was a breath of fresh air. Five years later, it all sounded alike and people stopped caring at all. It's like a cycle that repeats through history... an idea occurs, then people imitate, then it loses value and all the fans run on to something else.

(http://www.animalinyou.com/sheep.jpg)


There's an interesting comparison and contrast with metal to be seen here.  Punk went through four major iterations in 13 years (punk, hardcore, crust/thrash, grindcore) and was completely spent by 1989.  Metal managed to reinvent itself and remain vital for approximately twice that long, which is interesting, because punk and metal both emerged from a similar cultural milieu and initially expressed roughly similar ideas.

The difference, I think, is that among the punks, anger consumed any larger sense of ideal and became, in the end, despair.  So while both punk and metal saw that this society was failing, the Hessians sought instinctively after some sort of solution, while the punks yielded to impotent rage.  In this, I think metal benefited from its emergence from the counterculture, with a connection to the Romantic past - punk emerged from what was in essence the culture of street gangs, and unfortunately embraced the sort of blighted thinking of its thuggish origins.

Punk was ultimately undermined by its own planned obsolesence.  The genre's stripped down anti-aesthetic left little room for development, it's message of fatalism ("No future for you!") meant that it's attraction was largely for dead enders and do nothings, and the insane DIY ethos ultimately encouraged every idiot with a guitar and a bad haircut to participate, innundating the scene with sub-mediocrity.

In other words, punk was exactly like the present day black metal scene.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Annihilaytorr on November 02, 2006, 07:16:53 AM
The obsession with occultism and neo-classical aesthetic & theme is the primary reason metal survived past punk. Not only did the spirit of metal tap into ancient and meaningful cultural art forms, it also left the musicians with simply more ideas to work with. Metal had more to say with a better language.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Dionysius on November 02, 2006, 07:26:29 AM
As far as I'm concerned punk started with Iggy Pop and died with the Sex Pistols, who were a commercial creation by Malcom McLaren. After the Sex Pistols the british punk explosion occured which sprung forth many bands that are now commonly mistaken to be founders of the genre.

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The word "punk" first made an appearance in music journalism in a 1970 essay, "The Punk Muse: The True Story of Protopathic Spiff Including the Lowdown on the Trouble-Making Five-Percent of America's Youth" by Nick Tosches in Fusion. He described a music that was a "visionary expiation, a cry into the abyss of one's own mordant bullshit," its "poetry is puked, not plotted." That same year, Lester Bangs wrote a novella titled Drug Punk, influenced by William Burroughs' book, Junky, in which there is a line, "Fucking punks think it's a joke. They won't think it's so funny when they're doing five twenty-nine on the island." Dave Marsh used the phrase "punk rock" in his Looney Tunes column in the May 1971 issue of Creem, the same issue that introduced the term "heavy metal" as a genre name. Marsh wrote, "Culturally perverse from birth, I decided that this insult would be better construted as a compliment, especially given the alternative to such punkist behavior, which I figured was acting like a dignified asshole." Tosches, Bangs, Marsh, Richard Meltzer, Greg Shaw and Lenny Kaye used the term to define a canon of proto-punk bands, including the Velvets, Stooges, MC5, the Modern Lovers and the New York Dolls (DeRogatis, Let It Blurt, 118-119).


taken from here (http://www.fastnbulbous.com/punk.htm)

Read more and you'll find the Sex Pistols are the Cradle of Filth of punk. Why did punk die? Because many people didn't know the origins and lost focus on what it was really about. People who think punk sold out with Green Day are wrong. Why do you think the Pistols jumped on the bandwagon in that period and did a reunion? They were commercial from the start and were just fooling everyone with their "anarchist" slogans. The whole british punk-era that would define punk for eternity was based on a commercial joke. A few years afterwards most bands realized that and punk was officially declared dead. Everything that followed was an attempt at "revitalizing the corpse"
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: sofiana on November 02, 2006, 08:27:38 AM
Go listen to PiL and you will know where did punk
die...









RIP ?




Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 02, 2006, 03:01:26 PM
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As far as I'm concerned punk started with Iggy Pop and died with the Sex Pistols, who were a commercial creation by Malcom McLaren. After the Sex Pistols the british punk explosion occured which sprung forth many bands that are now commonly mistaken to be founders of the genre.


taken from here (http://www.fastnbulbous.com/punk.htm)

Read more and you'll find the Sex Pistols are the Cradle of Filth of punk. Why did punk die? Because many people didn't know the origins and lost focus on what it was really about. People who think punk sold out with Green Day are wrong. Why do you think the Pistols jumped on the bandwagon in that period and did a reunion? They were commercial from the start and were just fooling everyone with their "anarchist" slogans. The whole british punk-era that would define punk for eternity was based on a commercial joke. A few years afterwards most bands realized that and punk was officially declared dead. Everything that followed was an attempt at "revitalizing the corpse"


I always thought the early Who and Kinks were more of the begining of punk and even the rock of the 50s is very much a reflection of what Punk was trying to return to.

Sofiana: I think PIL's first 3 albums are better than any punk album.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Dionysius on November 03, 2006, 02:58:09 AM
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I always thought the early Who and Kinks were more of the begining of punk and even the rock of the 50s is very much a reflection of what Punk was trying to return to.


I've never listened much to the Who or the Kinks, but as far as I've read they popularized the power-chord, which would give them some credit for being forerunners of a number of genre's. I personally hate the Who though so I don't think I'll ever get into their works. (I generally dislike punk too for that matter)

As far as rock in the 50's there were different styles back then aswell, most of which I am unfamiliar with. But I think if you'd go look for music in that period that matches punk you'd only find it in the shape of a song, not a whole album.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 03, 2006, 05:18:39 AM
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I've never listened much to the Who or the Kinks, but as far as I've read they popularized the power-chord, which would give them some credit for being forerunners of a number of genre's. I personally hate the Who though so I don't think I'll ever get into their works. (I generally dislike punk too for that matter)

As far as rock in the 50's there were different styles back then aswell, most of which I am unfamiliar with. But I think if you'd go look for music in that period that matches punk you'd only find it in the shape of a song, not a whole album.


Well since 50s rock songs are usually identical on every album, finding punk in one song means finding it on the entire album.  It's more about the beat and the attitude.

I would understand why you wouldn't like the Who.  They became very progressive in the 70s, but in the 60s it was very basic and definitely everything that punk was in the late 70s, and even heavier considering that the music they were making was still completely new and dirgier than the other rock music at the time.  When the Kinks released their first single, the record company was afraid because they thought the new guitar distortion sounded like a barking dog.  That ended up being what they were going for.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: born for banning on November 03, 2006, 03:13:42 PM
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Read more and you'll find the Sex Pistols are the Cradle of Filth of punk. Why did punk die? Because many people didn't know the origins and lost focus on what it was really about.


This is the attitude I've heard from the old punks I know. I think however that the Dead Kennedys were the Cradle of Filth of punk hardcore...
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 03, 2006, 05:16:23 PM
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This is the attitude I've heard from the old punks I know. I think however that the Dead Kennedys were the Cradle of Filth of punk hardcore...


Yeah you could draw some pretty big comparrisons.  Especially if you look at the begining and ends of both artisits careers.  The Dead Kennedys had some REAL promise starting out.  At the end they were like a shell of a good idea turned in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: old_gregg on November 03, 2006, 11:42:50 PM
Hold on fools....

It was the moronic aspects of metal that killed Crass influenced Anarcho punk.

What began in the late 70's as a response to the rise of the right in the early 70's led to a very active left wing punk movement. Marches such as 'stop the city', squatting and political discussion were prevalent leading to a strong counterculture.

BY the mid to late late eighties, the rise of bands like Metallica and Slayer suddenly made everyone in the punk scene start to forget about 'message rather than music ' and everyone began to bring in more aspects of guitar wizardry and metal. This led to the term Crossover.

That was the death of punk as an abstract vehicle for ideas, and soon all the Anarchist bands were playing metal, listening to bands like Carcass, Boltthrower etc.....great!

You speak about metal on this board as though it has a real strand of rebellion running through it. Don't make me laugh.

Metal as a rule has never been about real ideas or activism. The Norwegian second wave was the closest thing to activism metal has ever seen. Metal is safe. Metal is non threatening. Metal is rock n roll for beer swilling bike riding proles who worship and idolise the 'guitar heroes' or 'drumming heroes'.

Sure it brings about some great achievements in music. BUt let's not kid ourselves that metal has some 'deeper intelligent strand' running through it.

This board still stands alone as an intelligent and thought provoking metal based forum.....but check the internet....they are very few and far between.

Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Dionysius on November 04, 2006, 06:32:44 AM
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It was the moronic aspects of metal that killed Crass influenced Anarcho punk.


No, it was their own political-correctness that killed these bands. Just look at what a lot of these people are doing now, the Ex is a fine example of punk having lost it's original focus IMHO.

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What began in the late 70's as a response to the rise of the right in the early 70's led to a very active left wing punk movement. Marches such as 'stop the city', squatting and political discussion were prevalent leading to a strong counterculture.


Wrong, the first punk had no clear message except that of "I'm bored and wanna rebel" When punk became about serious (left-wing) politics it simply adopted the same values as the peace-movement, which had also inspired the hippies. You're mistaken if you want to suggest that punk was the first politically active sub-culture.

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BY the mid to late late eighties, the rise of bands like Metallica and Slayer suddenly made everyone in the punk scene start to forget about 'message rather than music ' and everyone began to bring in more aspects of guitar wizardry and metal. This led to the term Crossover.
 
That was the death of punk as an abstract vehicle for ideas, and soon all the Anarchist bands were playing metal, listening to bands like Carcass, Boltthrower etc.....great!


So you mean to tell me that all the anarchist bands were united and serving the same cause? Wrong again, lot's of them hated each other and had different ideas about what anarchy was supposed to be about (Exploited and Crass and Dead Kennedies all hated each other for instance)

I'm not sure if Slayer and Metallica stole any fans from the punk-crowd, were you in those days? Then you should probably know that metalheads and hardcore kids didn't go to each other's shows because they'd get beaten up. It was bands like Venom and Motorhead that united metalheads and punks, not Slayer as far as I know. Watch what James Hetfield has to say in this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=63tknJ-uPhI) about those days. In same the documentary you'll see Anthrax saying that they were the first east-coast band that had a strong group of hardcore kids in their crowd. And I think crossover was a term invented for the bands that followed the traces of DRI, and for what DRI was doing later. And as far as Carcass and Bolt Thrower, those bands emerged at the end of the eighties so I really don't see your point there. You seem to have the whole eighties mixed up.

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BUt let's not kid ourselves that metal has some 'deeper intelligent strand' running through it.


But let's not kid ourselves that your post has some 'deeper intelligent strand' running through it. Next time you start a post with "hold on fools" I might just ignore it, for that first line already suggest one would be a fool to pay attention to what you have to say.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: born for banning on November 04, 2006, 07:01:29 AM
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BY the mid to late late eighties, the rise of bands like Metallica and Slayer suddenly made everyone in the punk scene start to forget about 'message rather than music ' and everyone began to bring in more aspects of guitar wizardry and metal. This led to the term Crossover.

You speak about metal on this board as though it has a real strand of rebellion running through it.

Metal as a rule has never been about real ideas or activism. The Norwegian second wave was the closest thing to activism metal has ever seen.


The reason I come here is that this site likes the metal that is not activist, but critical of society by rediscovering real meaning. Metal isn't rebellion, but it's antisocial. We call it Romanticist because it embraces quality of experience over quantity of comfort.

Activism is shit. It depends on taking one of two failing sides and bleating that repetitively. The reason punk died was this kind of bleating, not because all the punk bands wanted to be metal.

You're right about the Norwegians, though. Very little since has had that Romantic spirit or any awareness of the world at large. Most of it now has gone back to the heavy metal state of beer drinking, chick banging, moron music. But heavy metal of that type was what came after the originators like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, King Crimson and Judas Priest. It's not specific to metal. Most popular music is that way. It's hijacking of the original darkness of Black Sabbath into music for those who want to evade responsibility.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: scourge on November 04, 2006, 07:14:22 AM
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You speak about metal on this board as though it has a real strand of rebellion running through it. Don't make me laugh.


Metal was always more than rebellion. Why is rebellion considered some sort of noble goal? This is the activity of a peasant rabble, not intelligent visionaries who have a better way in mind.

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Marches such as 'stop the city', squatting and political discussion were prevalent leading to a strong counterculture.


Yes, effectively this punk evolution was the 1960s hippie counterculture version 2. Metal offered more than only screaming about problems. Metal showed listeners another way. Punk never did this.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Dylar on November 04, 2006, 07:35:49 AM
Anarcho-punk died out because it was a one note musical temper tantrum with nowhere else to go the second the last chord of Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing was laid to wax.  And frankly, the idea that genre's cartoon leftism was 'threatening' to anyone is fucking ludicrous - it's worth noting that the major censorship efforts of the era were directed at metal, not punk.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: born for banning on November 04, 2006, 09:11:14 AM
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one note musical temper tantrum


That sounds like a lot of current metal, except replace "one note" with "one riff"
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: old_gregg on November 04, 2006, 10:44:50 PM
Dionysius wrote:

No, it was their own political-correctness that killed these bands. Just look at what a lot of these people are doing now, the Ex is a fine example of punk having lost it's original focus IMHO.  

True...political correctness also played a part in the downfall of anarchist punk. I did not mention this because I was talking about the impact metal had on punk....which for punk ,was negative.  


Dionysius wrote: Wrong, the first punk had no clear message except that of "I'm bored and wanna rebel" When punk became about serious (left-wing) politics it simply adopted the same values as the peace-movement, which had also inspired the hippies. You're mistaken if you want to suggest that punk was the first politically active sub-culture.


I wasn't talking about where punk originally came from.....which I am fully aware of. I was talking specifically about the rise of Anarchist punk in the late 70's specifically starting at Crass. And yes, you are totally right, it was just another an extension of the hippy / peace movement....but in black army clothes

Dionysius wrote: So you mean to tell me that all the anarchist bands were united and serving the same cause? Wrong again, lot's of them hated each other and had different ideas about what anarchy was supposed to be about (Exploited and Crass and Dead Kennedies all hated each other for instance)

Again totally right. But I would never attempt to suggest that there was a unified Anarchist scene. There never will be, or could be....my points were quick and generalising...to get across my point that the vacuousness of metal helped kill punk.

Dionysius wrote:I'm not sure if Slayer and Metallica stole any fans from the punk-crowd, were you in those days? Then you should probably know that metalheads and hardcore kids didn't go to each other's shows because they'd get beaten up. It was bands like Venom and Motorhead that united metalheads and punks, not Slayer as far as I know. Watch what James Hetfield has to say in this about those days. In same the documentary you'll see Anthrax saying that they were the first east-coast band that had a strong group of hardcore kids in their crowd. And I think crossover was a term invented for the bands that followed the traces of DRI, and for what DRI was doing later. And as far as Carcass and Bolt Thrower, those bands emerged at the end of the eighties so I really don't see your point there. You seem to have the whole eighties mixed up.

You are right about Venom, And no, I am not mixed up. And yes, I was there....As I stated in my original post, I am merely trying to get across that the influence of metal ( which has no real ideology except  basic rock n roll ethos) was negative to Anarchist punk...which although had a borrowed ideology....at least had one.

Dionysius wrote: But let's not kid ourselves that your post has some 'deeper intelligent strand' running through it. Next time you start a post with "hold on fools" I might just ignore it, for that first line already suggest one would be a fool to pay attention to what you have to say.


My post does have a deeper strand running through it though. It's just that I only have enough time and space to get my points across to you at this time. I could discuss this for hours if you like....My point still stands....metal is moronic. Always has been....and unfortunately, always will be.

Punk is equally as useless.....but compared to metal it at least has aspects that are relevant to the world (lyrics, imagery etc)...metal is just fantasy for little boys.....especially black metal.


Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: ChristianHolocaust on November 05, 2006, 03:39:04 AM
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As I stated in my original post, I am merely trying to get across that the influence of metal ( which has no real ideology except  basic rock n roll ethos) was negative to Anarchist punk...which although had a borrowed ideology....at least had one.

My point still stands....metal is moronic. Always has been....and unfortunately, always will be.


I think we're saying the same thing here, the two groups. You suffer a bit from anti-metal bigotry, but we'd be lying if we said that most metal had ideology. But it's important to realize that metal had an underground, too. Black Sabbath was not apolitical, nor without ideology, although their drug habits led them to Christ and adulterated it around "Master of Reality" (all cokeheads and former porn stars discover Bibles in rehab). But what about NWOBHM?

Look at what happened in metal... 1970 was the first Black Sabbath album. Within a few years, there were imitators. So NWOBHM happened. Five years later, NWOBHM + Discharge created speed, death and black metal.

What's good about metal is that it doesn't try to have an activist ideology. It is more artistic and less static and so is more flexible over the years. Metal's ideology is anti-social: it believes the crowd is wrong, it believes reality is real, and that most people are delusional. It is anti-society but pro-experience and as a result is both anarchistic and fascistic.

Like most genres, though, there is no certification program (except ANUS). So for every band that gets it there are fifteen Bon Jovis and Carpathian Forests, and their ideology is beer + tits. That's the rock influence. Both metal and punk suffer from having descended from, in the mainstream view, pop music.

I think you have to keep an open mind about the best of the genre and not blame it for the entropy that results when the crowd floods in and wants a simpler, more convenient ideology.

I could easily blame the Dead Kennedys for turning punk into paint-by-numbers and scream at bands like Bad Religion for turning it into a rebellion trend. The message that I get from this history is that any genre that wishes to survive will have to be artistic, adaptable, and stay ahead of its imitators.

Even progressive rock got imitated. We don't have many of these bands any more, since they were terrible, but there were a whole string of Opeth-style Yes clones in the late 1970s.

Some genres produce nothing but junk. What was disco's ideology?

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metal is just fantasy for little boys.....especially black metal.


Here we disagree: you are confusing ideology with dogma. Metal chooses a poetic path, while punk chose a political one. The poetic path instills philosophy and the political path creates partisanship and dogma. Would anarchy work? No. Would anarchy solve our problems? No. What does a Romanticist ethic create? A sense of values that can be applied to any ideology, as conveyed through an experience that illustrates itself. It's more convincing, more lasting, and less like running our brains through a machine which tells us what to say.

Black metal if anything is something you should champion, as the presellout bands were completely opposed to the beer + tits ideology (excepting Impaled Nazarene, who were basically punkers).
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: born for banning on November 06, 2006, 05:45:12 PM
Punk died because it never had any ideas that were really different from those in society already. Anarchy is "I want it my way" which when you think about it isn't different from capitalism or democracy except in degree.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: scourge on July 22, 2010, 05:29:06 PM
Same reason environmentalism has turned into green consumerism will save the world and tax the rich countries to pay for industrializing poor countries. The social justice retards saw an important movement gaining momentum and decided to ride its coattails as hangers-on which turned into a drag effect like an anchor.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Conservationist on July 23, 2010, 08:00:22 AM
Same reason environmentalism has turned into green consumerism will save the world and tax the rich countries to pay for industrializing poor countries. The social justice retards saw an important movement gaining momentum and decided to ride its coattails as hangers-on which turned into a drag effect like an anchor.

That's true. I see two reasons punk died:

1. Entropy. Every movement gradually gets boiled down to a consumer product, and ideology is replaced by appearance.
2. Assimilation. Punk's statement, "think for yourself!", is the same root idea of the rest of modern society, including consumerism, capitalism, selfishness and greed. It was a false rebellion.

Black metal hit the same wall. #1 was bigger, but in the case of #2, its anti-Christian activism replaced the ideological shift it wanted to create: a strike against egalitarianism and anthrocentricism.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Parasite on July 23, 2010, 09:29:15 AM
A punk i met travelling through Norway said punk was dead until president Bush was elected, since alot of punk is political, this got the scene, or at least A scene going for a little while.  However since then it diminished and died down once again.  Speaking of Norway, in Trondheim there is a punk house/bar/cafe that hosts hardcore punk shows, and every year punks all over Norway come down and jam for a few days.  I walked by the house after the event had wrapped up, big house with a huge painting of a punk on the side, a big fence gating off the backyard, LOTS of beer bottles everywhere, and people fucking on the roof.
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: Gefechtsgruppe10 on July 23, 2010, 05:05:35 PM
A punk i met travelling through Norway said punk was dead until president Bush was elected, since alot of punk is political, this got the scene, or at least A scene going for a little while.  However since then it diminished and died down once again.  Speaking of Norway, in Trondheim there is a punk house/bar/cafe that hosts hardcore punk shows, and every year punks all over Norway come down and jam for a few days.  I walked by the house after the event had wrapped up, big house with a huge painting of a punk on the side, a big fence gating off the backyard, LOTS of beer bottles everywhere, and people fucking on the roof.
Goddamn man, all that anti-Bush stuff was terrible.  What sort of eternal values does "impeach Bush!" or "Bush is a Nazi" illustrate?  What light does that shed on reality?  Even the dessicated corpse of country music doesn't stink that bad...
(to the tune of Lee Greenwood's song)
"cause I'd proudly stand up
next to you and hang Obama here today"
Title: Re: Why did punk die?
Post by: NHA on July 23, 2010, 09:04:49 PM
Punk is equally as useless.....but compared to metal it at least has aspects that are relevant to the world (lyrics, imagery etc)...metal is just fantasy for little boys.....especially black metal.

As far as I can tell, they're both escapist fantasies for an isolated fringe minority who have little to no impact on the world around them. Blackmetal is a lot more nerdy because its escaping to something far removed from current reality, to most people it leaves the same impression as a man walking down the street dressed as Henry VIII. With punks you have a different and more extroverted approach - such as the self important rebel/activist fantasy that many leftists indulge in, which interestingly mirrors the power/control fantasies that neo nazis are often characterized as having.

If you listen to those so called "behind the scenes" interviews with a cast of some random Hollywood production, the people being interviewed all have the same irritating passive aggressive way of self-aggrandizing themselves and the people they work with while simultaneously trying to act humble. Amusingly, this same pattern seems to pop up often when listening to people talk about Classic Rock or Punk. NOT LIKE US ARISTOCRATIC PHILOSOPHER KING HESHERS LOLAMIRITE.