100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Metal => Topic started by: glinda on November 09, 2006, 07:14:21 PM

Title: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on November 09, 2006, 07:14:21 PM
If Classical forged the path for Rock, and Rock forged the path for Punk, and somewhere along the lines "ambient/electronic/techno/industrial" came about, and then somehow during the late 60's/early 70's early metal started, and now that Black and Death Metal have pretty much died after not very much time, what's next? A lot of people are really frustrated with a lack of original music(there's plenty of new music, most of it isn't worth listening to). Personally, I haven't heard really any new metal of any kind that breaks any new ground. Some of it is listenable, some of it sounds pretty good superficially, but it's still pretty much the same. The best metal happened before I was born, and when I was a very young child.

So what's next? Will it be darkwave/industrial, will metal resurrect itself? For lack of good metal, what other movements are coming up with good, original music? When you get bored with metal what genres do you turn to?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 09, 2006, 08:14:51 PM
I think saying classical forged the way for rock is pretty ridiculous.  Folk "forged the way" for country and then later came jazz and blues which was mixed with country by people in the deep South of the States to form early rock.  When rock was slowed down and was fused with the idea of riffs based on power chords, rather than simple melodies over basic chords, the basis of metal came about.  

And that's only one of your ridiculous assumption dealt with.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Josef K. on November 10, 2006, 01:23:08 AM
... This is beyond ridiculous.

"So what's next?"

I tire of these threads. The ultimate fact remains that decent metal resigned long ago. Only the idiots amongst us cling to its rotting remains. The better have long since taken the paragons the genre had to offer, and branched off into other stimulating forms of music. These questions are never going to be answered, and they hardly generate lively debate. They inevitably invite the opinions of some jackass who posts "the new Nile is hardcore."
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Hyvolgen on November 10, 2006, 01:44:52 AM
Classical was buried when America imported the Africans into their country and they made Blues music. Classical will come back and destroy Blues. Death to simple rhythms.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 10, 2006, 05:21:07 AM
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Death to simple rhythms.


I guess that means no more Transylvanian hungar as well.  Everyone knows that less is less after all.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Agni on November 10, 2006, 05:27:41 AM
I believe hip hop is next ........and everyone's doin' it
:P :P
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Agnan on November 10, 2006, 07:39:27 PM
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I guess that means no more Transylvanian hungar as well.  Everyone knows that less is less after all.


If Transilvanian Hunger die with the blues stuff, I would enjoy to sacrifice it and give again to classical music his nobility.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on November 10, 2006, 07:47:17 PM
Hopefully hip-hop will die soon. Usually after something becomes so completely commercialized, it is already dead. Classical music certainly is a part of what I listen to (in response to some asshole who thinks he must know everything). Without classical music, there would be no black metal. It's true that Classical music came from traditional European folk music, almost 100%. Everything complex musically, is always based on something more simple. When deciding how the hell to categorize music, I generally decide if it's listenable based on several factors.

1. Technicality-What key is the piece in, how is it timed, how many melodies/counter melodies are happening, how well does it all work together
2. skill- how well does the band play their instruments. Is the lead singer good? If there are lyrics, are they interesting, relevent or thought provoking? Do the lyrics evoke an emotion, or a memory?
3. Music as well as art doesn't have to be all serious all the time, conform to any genre, use only one or two styles, or have to impress anybody, sometimes simple can be good.

Furthermore, Nile never impressed anybody, except maybe my pothead brother, when he was 12.

I asked my question based on the fact that I have listened to metal for my entire life. I am utterly familiar with every genre, every time period, any band that was worth listening to. I have played a variety of instruments in myriad styles for 12 years. I understand music, in general, on every level. My preferences run to black metal, industrial, and darkwave/ambient. I thought I might find other people,who understand music enough to let me know if there was anything new or impressive goin on musically. I guess not.
Or maybe those who know guitar only, self-taught out of a basic beginners book with blurbs about the history in the preface should stick to what they know, which is guitar, instead of commenting on complex theory and styles.

Also, you don't have to drop names of bands, or names of underground metal bands to prove how metal you are. If you're still doin that in your 40s, you have some serious issues.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: ChristianHolocaust on November 11, 2006, 01:34:38 AM
I t hink the influence of the blues is way, way, way overstated. Everything in the blues comes from Celtic folk music, which in itself was influenced by the same music from which classical came. All of these musics depend on European music theory, so it's hard to claim they're unrelated. The "blues scale" has been in use among Semitic nations for centuries, and was not unknown or unused in Asia and the British aisles. I think rock is such a big industry people try to make a big deal of it, but really it's at best a footnote to the history of real music.

I don't believe it makes sense to classify death metal and black metal as rock, and even Black Sabbath was probably the first band to escape rock (remember, they were prog players who'd done time in Jethro Tull and Led Zeppelin as well). It didn't completely escape of course, but that's what future generations are for.

Hip-hop probably has its place, but not in my life. I don't think it's any stupider than most rock music, including the utterly pointless Dave Matthews Band or the trivial Red Hot Chili Peppers. When you look at rock music critically, you see that most of it is very simplistic thinking touched up with a bit of music theory. I can say the same of jazz and techno.

Most metal is dumb as rocks, including almost everything currently out, but there are exceptions, and those are worth living for. Until, of course, you can download some quality classical (not Mendelssohn or Mahler).
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: ChristianHolocaust on November 11, 2006, 01:36:02 AM
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The ultimate fact remains that decent metal resigned long ago. Only the idiots amongst us cling to us rotting remains.


I wish more people recognized this simple fact. The sooner we and others make this widely recognized, the less the new crap will be tolerated and then room will be created for potential quality works.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 08:12:16 AM
I have no idea why people spend so much time trying to downlplay blues from metal.  Even if you want to say that blues didn't play such a big role for Black Sabbath (which would quite frankly be one of the dumbest ideas to be presented on this board), you would also have to account for the fact that most extreme metal bands of the 80s were big into punk, which is almost nothing but blues progressions.

Yes I know blues came from folks, but it also came from the improvisational jazz music that was being made by the freed African American slaves in the late 1800s.  

And there would be no rock if blues wasn't done the way it was at the time it was done, no matter how much folk existed at the time.  No blues equals no rock.  No blues equals no metal.  No blues equals no punk.  No blues equals no Burzum, Graveland or any of those other bands.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 09:05:47 AM
Discharge is blues progressions? Are you really saying that no one would have created metal music, which resembles classical more than rock in many cases, without the blues? The world is a lot bigger than America, and only in America is the blues given this almost magical place in music history.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: detrath on November 11, 2006, 09:08:49 AM
Blues belongs in the geneology of metal. Blues, however, is not a fundamental starting point, but rather in tracing the geneology back further, you will come to other forms of music. It's important to see the progression fully.

Also, the reason people often bring this up is to say "look, metal is just blues-based rock like everything else we listen to!". Blues belongs in metal's geneology, but that doesn't mean metal is basing itself on blues. Metal reached out and did other things, and as many members like to point out, there are often classical and other musical influences that metal held more dearly then any kind of blues progression. And really, alot of the metal that is held on high here hardly sounds like blues.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 09:31:08 AM
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Are you really saying that no one would have created metal music, which resembles classical more than rock in many cases, without the blues?


Yes that is exactly what I am saying.  Metal came from rock and there is no getting around that.  Rock came from blues and there is no getting around that.  Classical influences didn't enter metal until much later, although they rarely appeared early on in a very novelty form.  If there was no blues, then metal would not exist.  There would probably be some other style of music that was based on classical music, but it probably would be vastly differant.  You may delude yourself into thinking whatever you want.

I'm sorry, but rock music is a totally American thing.  Even the early Enlgish rock bands all claim it came from blues and American music.  If you don't like American music, then there are plenty of other genres in the world that don't come from American music, but you can't listen to any kind of metal without admitting that blues played a part in it's creation.

Like I said, I have no idea why you would want to deny this.  

Discharge, by the way, came later after punk was established.  Power chords also came from the blues, for those who didn't know that already.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 09:34:26 AM
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Blues belongs in the geneology of metal. Blues, however, is not a fundamental starting point, but rather in tracing the geneology back further, you will come to other forms of music. It's important to see the progression fully.

Also, the reason people often bring this up is to say "look, metal is just blues-based rock like everything else we listen to!". Blues belongs in metal's geneology, but that doesn't mean metal is basing itself on blues. Metal reached out and did other things, and as many members like to point out, there are often classical and other musical influences that metal held more dearly then any kind of blues progression. And really, alot of the metal that is held on high here hardly sounds like blues.


Yes there are countless other influences, but they are ALL important.  They all played a part and without any one of them, metal would be vastly different, or non-existant completely.  I have no idea why people on this board want to hide from the blues influence.  
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 09:42:17 AM
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Rock came from blues and there is no getting around that.


What's musically different between blues and country music?

Power chords did not come from the blues. Power chords are part of the Western system of music, and are used in other forms, although they sound best on guitar.

I don't believe any "official" histories anymore, and I have to ask you: why are you so dogmatic about the blues in metal? It's as if someone told you this long ago and you're repeating it from fear of seeing the obvious. All music is the same.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 10:58:05 AM
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What's musically different between blues and country music?

Power chords did not come from the blues. Power chords are part of the Western system of music, and are used in other forms, although they sound best on guitar.

I don't believe any "official" histories anymore, and I have to ask you: why are you so dogmatic about the blues in metal? It's as if someone told you this long ago and you're repeating it from fear of seeing the obvious. All music is the same.


Blues is based off of gospal music and jazz, while country is based off gospal music and Irish folk.  There really isn't much difference, to be honest.  Only in execution.  

What other forms used power chords before the 20th century, other than as a simple part of the scale?

Trust me, if someone presented me with information that proved that blues DID NOT have an essential effect on metal, I would welcome it.  I have just always had a hatred for people who try to re-write history.  And you are correct for not just believing in official histories, but I have searched and searched and can only conclude by looking at the natural flow of recorded music over the last 100 hundred years that the Blues are a gigantic part of rock and that rock could not have possibly started without it.  If you don't believe me, then do the research yourself and tell me if you find a way that metal could have existed without blues.  

It's not like the metal artists don't give blues credit anyway.  Black Sabbath maintian that they started as a rhythmn and blues band and built from that form, and punk is a continuation of early simple rock that is based on blues music and the early punks will all tell you that as well.  I don't think anyone is putting them up to it.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:00:52 AM
metal is an music created to express an idea, even if blues hadn't come around that idea would still be there, if blues hadn't existed metal probably would have started with death metal, black metal and grindcore, none of these where heavily blues based.
however there would be some differences, growling and screeching wouldn't have existed, most singers would probably sound like Lemmy Kilmeister and the distortion would have been more along the lines of motorhead, but it would all be classically based.

If blues hadn't have existed heavy metal and speed metal wouldn't exist and half of the death metal bands wouldn't exist (because some of the poorer bands rely on rock to an extent they are rock but with blast beat and growling) but asides from those
metal would have existed. All because metal came about because people went happy with the world they lived in, if blues didn't exist people would still be unhappy with the world they live in and would try to make music they sounded to grotesque for people part of that world to listen to.

but i do support the influence of blues no metal for the simple fact if it were not for it bands like led zeppelin, king crimson (i no they are jazz but if blues didn't have an impact then neither would jazz), Judas priest and iron maiden wouldn't have happened
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:06:25 AM
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metal is an music created to express an idea, even if blues hadn't come around that idea would still be there, if blues hadn't existed metal probably would have started with death metal, black metal and grindcore, none of these where heavily blues based.


Yeah and this music would have came from out of no where magically.

You are also forgetting that without Jazz, drums would not be used in music the way they are now.  There is no precedent for such drums beats, outside of tribal African Music and possible Native American influence, and I'm sure you don't want to go there.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 11:06:39 AM
Blues was based on gospel, certainly, but did jazz pre-date it? And if it and country are musically so similar, why give credit to the blues at all?

I think the confusion here is that blues was marketed to kids, and they don't know any better, so all the rock writers and bands thought it was the origin of a music theory that's much older.

In my mind, the rock people are the ones re-writing history and those who scorn blues are the ones righting it.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:09:40 AM
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Blues was based on gospel, certainly, but did jazz pre-date it? And if it and country are musically so similar, why give credit to the blues at all?

I think the confusion here is that blues was marketed to kids, and they don't know any better, so all the rock writers and bands thought it was the origin of a music theory that's much older.

In my mind, the rock people are the ones re-writing history and those who scorn blues are the ones righting it.


Early blues was not marketed to kids.  It was not marketed to anyone.  It was a new form of folk music that was forming traditionally within the families of freed slaves.  Jazz, I was surprised to find out, did predate it to a point, as jazz is simply such music done improvisationally, while Blues has a set form.  Blues was not marketed to kids until the 60s, more than half a century after it was formed.  Before that it was seen as folk music and meant to simply show the education of the land.  
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 11:14:52 AM
When was Elvis Presley? As I recall he was the second generation of music sold to young people, after the blues records of the immediate postward period.

No?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:17:26 AM
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Yeah and this music would have came from out of no where magically.



no it would have come out of classical music and European styles of folk music, although your point about percussion is true metal would be better of without it, it would be using percussion like in an orchestra, so it would emphasis points in the music as opposed to being constant percussion
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:17:53 AM
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When was Elvis Presley? As I recall he was the second generation of music sold to young people, after the blues records of the immediate postward period.

No?


Elvis Presley started in the mid-50s.  At the time, putting blues on vinyl for kids was considered irresposible and the promotion of devil's music (keep in mind, nobody used the idea of music being evil as a promotional tool back then, as they do now).  As rock became more popular, record companies began searching for blues musicains, and finally blues became a popular style of music by the early 60s.  Before that, blues were simply sold to adults for education on American Folk music.  Back then Blues albums were called "Race Records".
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:20:48 AM
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no it would have come out of classical music and European styles of folk music, although your point about percussion is true metal would be better of without it, it would be using percussion like in an orchestra, so it would emphasis points in the music as opposed to being constant percussion


But why would people unhappy with the world utilized classical music?  Before rock, classical music was made for elite crowds, mostly commissiond by the rich.  It was music of royalty and not of angst.  If anything, people unhappy with the world would have revolted against such music.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:21:44 AM
im not trying to downplay the role of blues music, after all I've written songs using the blues scale and in a the usual 8 or 12 bar variation but im only saying that early forms of metal wouldn't have existed but latter forms would have (with major alterations but could still be considered as the same genre)
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:23:46 AM
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But why would people unhappy with the world utilized classical music?  Before rock, classical music was made for elite crowds, mostly commissiond by the rich.  It was music of royalty and not of angst.  If anything, people unhappy with the world would have revolted against such music.


but the ideas expressed within classical music are the same as those expressed in metal
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 11:25:22 AM
I am downplaying the role of blues music. If anything it's what holds metal back, the "rock heritage" some people here praise. Before rock, people listened to folk songs, country, classical and some of what we call world music today. After rock, they listen to rock and everything gets very one-dimensional. Did you know that music history as seen by rock music writers, and music history as seen by historians, are almost two completely different things? Check your sources. Rock people write about rock because it's their $$$ and they praise the blues as a result.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 11:26:16 AM
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But why would people unhappy with the world utilized classical music?


Classical music has a lot of emotions in it, and not all of them are positive. Wagner wanted to change the world by writing music, and he did. Beethoven had his ideas. What is this theory that only depressed people make music?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:26:26 AM
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but the ideas expressed within classical music are the same as those expressed in metal


That is true, but these ideas were added after rock and blues had already beem fused.  I will even admit to the first Black Sabbath album having many classical influences, but the blues influences cannot be ignored.  I think all the influences are important.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:29:05 AM
The point is that maybe some form of classical music that may or may not resember music may have existed without blues, but Blues does exist and it did play the important role.  You can say all day that "if there was no blues, maybe....", but the fact is that blues is the direction it went in, despite another hypothesising about what else could have happened.  "If only" is just a state of mind.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 11:31:08 AM
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The point is that maybe some form of classical music that may or may not resember music may have existed without blues, but Blues does exist and it did play the important role.


Historically, this is true. What we are arguing about here is that there's no reason why something else would not have done the same.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:31:54 AM
ive never herd any real classical influences in there music, i even think they sound bad, the only reason they should be praised is there ideology not there music, if you like the sound of black sabbath listen to led zeppelin, a far better version of the same style of music
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:33:49 AM
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ive never herd any real classical influences in there music, i even think they sound bad, the only reason they should be praised is there ideology not there music, if you like the sound of black sabbath listen to led zeppelin, a far better version of the same style of music


I am a fan of both Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:35:10 AM
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Historically, this is true. What we are arguing about here is that there's no reason why something else would not have done the same.


Well ok, but my argument in this thread was when someone stated that the blues influence was overstated, which I don't think it is.  It is an important step in the evolution of what metal is today, and without it, metal would be vastly different if it did not exist.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:35:18 AM
well maybe sound bad was harsh (after all i do listen to them on occasion) but i do find there music gets dull and boring quickly
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 11:41:05 AM
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Well ok, but my argument in this thread was when someone stated that the blues influence was overstated, which I don't think it is.


Not if something else could have taken its place, and in fact there were musically similar movements from which metal music could have evolved as well. I don't see it man.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:45:41 AM
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Not if something else could have taken its place, and in fact there were musically similar movements from which metal music could have evolved as well. I don't see it man.


Which movements besides jazz and blues could metal have come out of?  Name these movements.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 11:48:06 AM
things like Irish folk music could have been a substitute, along with Scandinavian folk music (this is more of me asking could these bands have been used instead as opposed to me actually saying these bands could have been used instead)
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 11:57:46 AM
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things like Irish folk music could have been a substitute, along with Scandinavian folk music (this is more of me asking could these bands have been used instead as opposed to me actually saying these bands could have been used instead)


Well those styles are part of the influence of rock and metal already, but like I said, all the influences play a big role.  Jazz for it's drums and inprovisation.  Blues for the rock structure and guitar solos, as well as utilizing the guitar as a main instrument.  Folk for the song writing.  Classical for the melodies and compostition.  It all has a place.  Folk is already a big piece of it as it is.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 12:06:38 PM
Classical guitarists also used improvisational playing, as did Flamenco guitarists, only a few hundred years before the blues. Classical pianists including Bach also were noted improvisers. The drumkits and styles used in jazz were present in German popular music (research the origins of modern drums). Folk music and esp. Celtic folk had strong improvisational traditions. I think the blues and rock are as much a farce as Cradle of Filth, and the only reason people don't see this is that they read rock writers and not real music historians!
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 12:09:31 PM
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Classical guitarists also used improvisational playing, as did Flamenco guitarists, only a few hundred years before the blues. Classical pianists including Bach also were noted improvisers. The drumkits and styles used in jazz were present in German popular music (research the origins of modern drums). Folk music and esp. Celtic folk had strong improvisational traditions. I think the blues and rock are as much a farce as Cradle of Filth, and the only reason people don't see this is that they read rock writers and not real music historians!


It is important to note that German pop music came from swing music.... which was created by those sandel wearers that you people seem to hate so much.

My point is that those are the influences in metal now.  I doubt that these would have came together the way rock music came together in the South of America, but I suppose anything is possible.  Doesn't seem likely.  It seems as if Europeans would be happier going in a more elite direction, but who knows.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 12:10:04 PM
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Classical pianists including Bach also were noted improvisers.


yes despite the fact the piano-forte appeared after Bach's death (hence why all his keyboard works were either organ or harpsichord works)
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 12:12:28 PM
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It is important to note that German pop music came from swing music.... which was created by those sandel wearers that you people seem to hate so much.


This is not correct. Beerhall music and waltz music (related) predated it by many years.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 12:18:22 PM
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This is not correct. Beerhall music and waltz music (related) predated it by many years.

But the drum beats you are refering to came from swing music and cabaret and not waltz or beerhall music.  Jewish jazz created those drum beats.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 12:27:44 PM
Beerhall music used a range of tempos and methods. German folk music, and Celtic folk music, used every structure of the blues although perhaps less repetitively. The Americas invented nothing in music except some style which was closely tied to marketing. Read real music history not rock history, because it's false. But they say blues is the root of everything, how could they lie (http://www33.brinkster.com/iiiii/inventions)?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 12:31:46 PM
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Beerhall music used a range of tempos and methods. German folk music, and Celtic folk music, used every structure of the blues although perhaps less repetitively. The Americas invented nothing in music except some style which was closely tied to marketing. Read real music history not rock history, because it's false. But they say blues is the root of everything, how could they lie (http://www33.brinkster.com/iiiii/inventions)?


Well I never claimed blues was the root of everything.  Just an important part of metal.  If you are just going to say things are lies without proof, then you are no better than someone trying to re-write history.  I do not get my knowledge from rock journalists.  I get it from listening to the existing recordings.  To claim no music came from America is also just your way of shielding yourself from the truth.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2006, 01:18:25 PM
Your allegations are equally unsubstantiated. So we're at an impasse, lacking further information and the interpretation that makes sense of it. There is still no evidence to suggest that the blues is exclusively unique in the development of metal, only that it was the most promoted form of music during the time, and, as you admit, it's not musically different from country or folk or even German beerhall music, so what's its importance, other than perceived historical importance? I believe as nihilists we should be brave and debunk illusion wherever we find it (although we should preserve myth).
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: detrath on November 11, 2006, 02:09:33 PM
1)Blues is an important part in the HISTORY of metal. To deny this is to deny historical evidence.

2) The kinds of themes, both musical and topical, that metal musicians have come to pursue are vastly different from those that Blues musicians pursued/pursue. They are themes and ideas for topics to write about and ways of doing music that came independently of any Blues influence.

3) Ideas for inspiration are what are important to a musician's work.

4) Blues is not important to metal musicians anymore.

Blues was a certain pathway that various musicians walked upon. It was a foundation they could lay their own ideas upon. However, things change. Blues is simply not important to metal anymore. It is a foundation that has been eroded away to the point of being nearly non-existent in metal. It is like a ladder that was climbed and then kicked away because it is no longer useful or interesting. We can get by just fine without it and we don't have any desire to go back to it. Only the most general features (ex a particular use of a drum kit, use of electric guitars, etc...) are still held in common. I think it is fair to say that these general features could have plausibly come to exist without Blues music, and this is perhaps the kind of thought that would be the motivation for someone who feels like born for banning.

To sum up my feelings:

Blues = important to recognize historically as a path that helped metal exist
Blues = not important for doing metal anymore
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: LightningRider on November 11, 2006, 02:31:43 PM
Music often is a reflection of the history that is going around it. You can't view the development of music such as Classical, Romantic, Blues, Jazz and Rock without looking at politics, wars, changes in culture, changes in technology, changes in social ranks & etc.

Things don't just develop out of the blue. Everything has reasons/sources.

For example: Classical occurred in part as a result of the Enlightenment and the prominence of the Middle-Class. Baroque had become too "complicated" to the ears of concertgoers in Vienna, Paris and Milan. Also keep note that until this past century most Concert and Opera performances were galas of showing off and chitchatting. Few were interested in the artistic endeavors being performed in front of them.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on November 11, 2006, 07:18:49 PM
I guess the whole point I'm trying to make is that all the forms of music we enjoy came from simple folk music, whatever the culture or area of the world. That's why we can appreciate bands in so many genres and forms of the same thing. I think it's an individual or cultures worldview that keeps us coming back to the same thing, we want to understand each other, and what better way than to get outside your own head for awhile, and into somebody else's. Lyrics are important, but music definitely sets an emotional tone that allows for relatability of the music across generations and across various cultures. Music is one of the most important things that unites us, as humans. No matter what your preference, music is in all of our natures.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2006, 07:22:56 PM
Quote
Your allegations are equally unsubstantiated. So we're at an impasse, lacking further information and the interpretation that makes sense of it.


Can we at least agree that the first post of this thread is completely uneducated?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 11, 2006, 07:38:50 PM
after reading the first post again ive realized we have been arguing over the origins of the genre when the question was what happens next
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on November 12, 2006, 02:34:12 AM
Quote
1)Blues is an important part in the HISTORY of metal. To deny this is to deny historical evidence.


The whole point of this thread has been to point out that inspirations existed before the blues and that the blues, if not present, would have been replaced by another method. Folk music, country music, and European classical are more "basic" influences than the blues. As one person pointed out, at this point the blues is totally irrelevant to metal. The blues is lauded mainly for its political elements, and to make rock music seem more "new" than it is. Listen to the old Anglo-Celtic "traditional music" (still taught in many music classes) and you'll see the origins of rock and metal. Why do people know the blues? Because it like rock music was marketed as being "different," just like a mallgoth yelling at her parents. The whole thing is an advertising pitch not musical historical truth.

M2C's comment is also viable. We should be talking about the future of metal and not its past. But until we understand its past, how can we construct its future? We need to clear out some illusions and political thinking and see more clearly what traditions metal came from and what will be part of it in the future.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: LightningRider on November 12, 2006, 04:14:40 AM
Quote
The blues is lauded mainly for its political elements, and to make rock music seem more "new" than it is. Listen to the old Anglo-Celtic "traditional music" (still taught in many music classes) and you'll see the origins of rock and metal. Why do people know the blues? Because it like rock music was marketed as being "different," just like a mallgoth yelling at her parents. The whole thing is an advertising pitch not musical historical truth.


Blues was castrated and then skin colored white and  then sold to American white youth. The Real Black Blues was something offlimits for most youth in those days.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: ChristianHolocaust on November 12, 2006, 04:20:06 AM
Just a word of advice: this topic is about to become entirely circular. Some people read Rolling Stone and take it as gospel, and they're not going to change their minds yet. Give 'em some air and time and move the conversation toward the future.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: detrath on November 12, 2006, 07:29:47 AM
Quote

The whole point of this thread has been to point out that inspirations existed before the blues and that the blues, if not present, would have been replaced by another method. Folk music, country music, and European classical are more "basic" influences than the blues. As one person pointed out, at this point the blues is totally irrelevant to metal.


I don't disagree with anything you say. In fact, I said both that blues is in the history of metal (I think it was erroneous of me to put "important" in there in the original post), and that blues is irrelevant to metal today. These seem like contradictory statements to some, but they are not. I think you know this too, but I want to say it explicitly in an effort to say things very clearly for this thread:

There is an actual state of affairs that occurred through history. The blues is there in metal's history. That's the way things went and that cannot be changed (we don't have a time machine). A historian would have to point it out, and that's what tons of people pay alot of attention to and constantly repeat.

The error is in assuming that the blues, as a way of doing music, is important to the way of doing metal simply because it has a part in its historical development. Blues itself is unimportant to metal. There is nothing particular to Blues music that plays an irreplacable, necessary role in metal music. The things that are important to metal are very different. The connection between the two is historical only, in the sense of looking at actual history.

I hope this is common ground that everyone in this thread can walk? I apologize to born for banning, as I think I'm repeating alot of what was in your post, but I thought perhaps it would benefit others if I put together the argument like this.



The future of metal - While we're on the topic of Blues, I think it needs to not look back to Blues. Some metal bands seem to do that. I think metal needs to hold as its foundation the genre defining fundamentals that made metal special. Figuring out what metal holds basic will be important for how metal develops. I think this is related to born for banning's point about the need for understanding metal's past to move into the future.

Where it goes? I suppose it can go further in probing the emptiness of modern living. It can apply a nihilist's hammer with an even stronger strike to examine the current human situation. It will also always express the great power and spirit in man, dealing with power in its explicit or more subtle forms. It is anti-fatalism music, I believe as well. It wants to cultivate the power in man in the face of a very shrouded and deceptive peril that exists in modern times. It can also continue to probe the transcendent, to all the things that are beyond man and yet still present to man in nature and in life.

These were some very general ideas, but maybe a starting point?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 12, 2006, 07:59:26 AM
Quote
Just a word of advice: this topic is about to become entirely circular. Some people read Rolling Stone and take it as gospel, and they're not going to change their minds yet. Give 'em some air and time and move the conversation toward the future.


Oh please.  I know very well that Rolling Stone is a load of shit that talks out of it's ass in every issue.  I stopped reading that publication after the first issue I bought way back in 5th grade.

What people need to do is do their own research and not take ANYONE's word for it.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 13, 2006, 03:55:35 PM
but already metal has splintered into far to many pieces for it to be talked about in general, this is not a bad thing as it shows metal is more then a one trick pony but it makes it difficult to discuss as a single entity

After all detrath said it was anti-fatalist music yet thats the single idea behind doom metal (even giving it its name {although i do believe the fatalism idea was to show the inexorability of death})
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Cacao Daemon on December 06, 2006, 08:24:22 AM
 To every single post talking about blues influence in metal and classical: WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK!

It is irrelevant if blues "inspired" or "influnced" rcock then to metal, etc. Goodness! I am also very tired of how people use this idea of steering metal towards classical music is going to make it any "better", a very snobbish way to think.

New metal lies in the burning hatred and disguts that I have for morons who go on and on about these irrelevancies while avoiding the subject of the conversation.

The burning sensation in my gut, along with pure hatred for this modern fucking world and the majority of man"kind", TRULY inspires me to go make some fucking kickass metal music instead of TALKING about it ALL DAY LONG!!!!!!!

You have know idea how long I've been thinking baout this very topic and how it has driven me insane. But it is not necessary, because no of the originators of the music we love went through THIS MUCH to conceptualize their art forms, man!

It starts with passion, which is basically dead nowadays, as all we have left are pretentious cocks and cowardly introverts. Is there ever gonna be another Euronymous for the love of hell!

Start with the passion that stems from nihilistic disgust towards modern society, and listen to the GREAT bands enough. Learn from them. But your own heart into it and ideals, and POOF...New Metal voice. Simpl as that!
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 06, 2006, 09:46:41 AM
and to say to steer to classical is  snobbish isn't thought out very well, after all metal takes a huge amount of classical ideas already and the morals and ideology behind certain genres of metal are almost parallel as those of certain periods/composers of classical music.

Classical can be snobbish, but here we don't bother with the works from Hyden who offers no music to question the nature of reality other then to reinforce the illusion of reality that humans collectively share, we would listen to Bach or Brahms or Grieg instead. To say to add more classical ideas is snobbish is a completely uneducated thought
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Cacao Daemon on December 07, 2006, 02:16:33 AM
Youy know something? You are absoluetely right about that. I got a little worked up only because I thought this discussion was genuinely about what is next and who's doing. I know it is important to discuss the roots and influences of metal, but no valuable and USABLE ideas are coming from this trin of thought, and I find it to be discouraging. I genuinely DISLIKE the current state of metal, and I've been going on and on in my head about what coul come out of the ashes of past movements like black metal and death metal, but my argument is that the artist normally did not apply this much effort towards the creation of a new voice of metal ideology, instead is was a natural, passionate reaction to the world that they adopted from the music they grew up with ( like the black metal originators growing up with death metal), so I feel that we may be wasting time and not delving into this the proper way.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: we hope you die on December 08, 2006, 11:23:38 AM
It's hard to ignore all the shit in metal today, if you're a kid trying to create decent music, as mayhem to carnage may have said in a different post, the internet means that any old wanker can put music out there. There's a lot of shit to wade through. But i think that one decent band that got the right idea, didn't buy the trend metal bullshit, that's worth trawling through twenty crap bands for. And with a bit of luck they'll gain a louder voice than others, maybe inspire others to create new and interesting music.

I agree with the above poster that we may be wasting our time talking about this, rather than DOING this.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 09, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
Yes, when she asked, we went to the roots instead of the actual answer.  Well maybe that is because "what is next" is not some answer you can just spit out.  Secondly, it's certainly not something anyone can tell you if you join a message board where people talk about metal and then instantly spit out an answer about all the new bands and what they are going for and which ones will be the new Venom or Graveland or whatever you please.  

If you do not know, what makes you think anyone else does?  Well this thread makes it clear that no one on this forum does anyway.  Frankly it's kind of ridiculous to go on a board and ask such a question.  If she had done any reading of any of the other threads she would have seen that.  

It would be like going on a band's message board and asking how many more albums that band is going to make before they retire and expecting the fans to know the answer, and then getting mad when all these fans do is talk about the albums that are already out and only discussing things that they know, rather than talking out of their asses about things they don't.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 09, 2006, 05:42:30 PM
 :P aint my fault y'all couldn't read the question properly. I thought by asking the question in a different way, I might get some intelligent thoughts instead of the same damn repetetive bitching(Psychologically, this is the definition of insanity, repeating the same actions expecting different results). I guess I answered my own question anyway, so yeah, posting that question was kinda redundant, but being somewhat newer on here, and not wanting to read through all the thousands of redundant posts to find tidbits here or there that were worth the time to read, I thought I'd just go for it and ask. I guess I'm in the transition from conceptualizing and playing other people's shit, to creating and making my own shit, I've been wondering what I want to do. I thought about it long enough and came up with my own answers.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 09, 2006, 07:16:04 PM
Quote
:P aint my fault y'all couldn't read the question properly. I thought definition of insanity, repeating the same actions by asking the question in a different way, I might get some intelligent thoughts instead of the same damn repetetive bitching(Psychologically, this is the expecting different results). I guess I answered my own question anyway, so yeah, posting that question was kinda redundant, but being somewhat newer on here, and not wanting to read through all the thousands of redundant posts to find tidbits here or there that were worth the time to read, I thought I'd just go for it and ask. I guess I'm in the transition from conceptualizing and playing other people's shit, to creating and making my own shit, I've been wondering what I want to do. I thought about it long enough and came up with my own answers.


My point was the you asked a question that no one could answer.  We all understood the question, but we cannot answer things we don't know.  All we can tell is what we do know.  Please read my previous post again.

Hell, read my first post in this thread again, as your question was severly faulty to begin with.  Even the people who disagree with me would agree with the faultiness.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 09, 2006, 08:25:57 PM
in replying to the original post you cant just say we arr now listening to music that is no longer black metal but a new genre, music doesn't leap it goes forward slowly. Thats why bands like Sodom can be hard to categorize, they are still of the previous genre but are fleshing out the next one, its only after awhile that we can look back on it and say here is where speed metal ended and death metal began
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 10, 2006, 06:05:43 AM
I agree.  You certainly can't go around naming genres as they happen, and you certainly can't name a genre before it happens either.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 10, 2006, 07:29:42 PM
If music goes forward slowly, why the need to categorize and genre-ize and piss on everything that doesn't comform to rigid  near obsolete musical structures then? Why not simply accept that inspiration and creativity in music can pour forth in any number of styles and any one musical piece can have a vast amount of influences? You guys are constantly contradicting yourselves. If everybody's ready to hear something different, why bitch about everything that doesn't sound the same as the tired 5 albums everyone's been playing for the past 10 years?
You can't comform a nonconformist movement, and it seems that many people are trying to do this.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 10, 2006, 07:38:03 PM
Quote
If music goes forward slowly, why the need to categorize and genre-ize and piss on everything that doesn't comform to rigid  near obsolete musical structures then? Why not simply accept that inspiration and creativity in music can pour forth in any number of styles and any one musical piece can have a vast amount of influences? You guys are constantly contradicting yourselves. If everybody's ready to hear something different, why bitch about everything that doesn't sound the same as the tired 5 albums everyone's been playing for the past 10 years?
You can't comform a nonconformist movement, and it seems that many people are trying to do this.


Well you are the one asking what is next as if there is some new movement going on or something.

And this is Anus.com after all.  Why does it suprise you that peole here are so anal?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 11, 2006, 11:31:31 AM
if people didn't categorize genres of metal then if discussing a new band you would have to write (or say) a lengthy paragraph stating the sound of the band, other bands that sound similar, thats bands beliefs system, when the band started (because it could range from 1970-2006) and often to where they come from. After we judge every past event by names and eras and so we would be denying 2+2=4* if we were to go against it
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Ageless_Stranger on December 11, 2006, 06:40:06 PM
Quote
and to say to steer to classical is  snobbish isn't thought out very well, after all metal takes a huge amount of classical ideas already and the morals and ideology behind certain genres of metal are almost parallel as those of certain periods/composers of classical music.

Classical can be snobbish, but here we don't bother with the works from Hyden who offers no music to question the nature of reality other then to reinforce the illusion of reality that humans collectively share, we would listen to Bach or Brahms or Grieg instead. To say to add more classical ideas is snobbish is a completely uneducated thought



Just a thought, but in my experience classical music isn't snobbish so much as a lot of its fans are snobbish.  I'm talking about the "academic elite" here.  Cocktail-toting, tuxedo-sporting balding men type of people.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 11, 2006, 07:20:47 PM
Exactly.  A piece of music or kind of music can't be snobbish.  It seems like this person is just trying to write off the genre or just giving themselves a reason to not look into the vast new ground.  Maybe because it's too much or maybe because he would prefer to have easier to listen to music that doesn't take much thought.  More thought equals snobbish apparently.

Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 11, 2006, 07:31:51 PM
I think it's important to really give classical music some thorough listening, all the structures that metal, punk, industrial, electronic use are based from a diverse range of classical music. From classical music structures of all kinds we can learn what makes a piece of music "happy" or "morose"or dissonant, or heavily layered, or simplistic. You have to know this stuff to be able to make music, precisely so that you don't just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. It can make a genre almost obsolete within years as we have all observed, if everyone keeps doing the exact same things.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 12, 2006, 12:01:12 AM
i believe metal has taken more from the ideology of the various classical eras then it has taken musically, although gorgoroth immediately sound like simplified baroque music using somewhat of a similar song structure it quickly becomes apparent that its beliefs (not of that particular band but the genre as a whole) are closer to classical then the musical element
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 12, 2006, 12:52:03 PM
I've heard a lot of guitar riffs that sound very similiar, if are not outright from classical pieces, not from one metal band, but from many, the use of the whole scale of notes and chords rather than just a few repetetive chords played over and over again(as in pop music, or punk). Metal is the only genre that makes use of all the possibilities of sound, other than classical.The ideology is certainly still present, but classical structures are used as well.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 13, 2006, 09:43:38 PM
you talk about music to generally, music is far far more diverse then most people seem to realize so when you say metal is the only other genre asides from classical
i wouldn't be to sure, after all jazz can be a genre that far exceeds metal in both complexity and technicality using notes running up and down various scales.

but what you said about riffs sounding like classical themes wouldn't surprise me, to have a single theme in metal sound like a single theme in classical would be impossible not to happen, because (as you said) the way notes through scales are used is similar to classical and the huge number of classical and metal works it was only a matter of time before similarities in themes is found, a good example of common themes is the theme for in the hall of the mountain king and override to overture
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 14, 2006, 12:09:17 PM
I see your point, Jazz is a fun genre to play because of the technicality of the music, as is Classical, you can really delve into music and make use of any combinations of notes/scales/haromonies and dissonance. I tend not to listen to Jazz much because although the technicality and use of the entire musical spectrum, much if it doesn't really tend to appeal to my aesthetics, there's always a certain disharmony and lack of structure in Jazz (I guess I'm thinking of more modern Jazz) that just doesn't sound good. Metal tends to be more structured in its harmonies, as is Classical, and that's the similarity I was talking about. Actually, in band in high school, we were playing In the Hall of the Mountain King, when we decided to play a trick on our instructor, at the football game we substituted "For Whom the Bell Tolls" for "Louie,Louie". This was before S&M came out, so we thought we were being pretty crafty at the time.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: oscar the cat on December 14, 2006, 01:23:17 PM
Problem with jazz is that once you know the tune the rest is just licks, like the blues, like rock music, hell even like about half of country.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 15, 2006, 02:55:10 PM
not if your talking about big band jazz, its exactly like a symphony except with a much more beat oriented feel and a much (much) larger emphasis on brass  
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 15, 2006, 05:27:04 PM
Quote
Problem with jazz is that once you know the tune the rest is just licks, like the blues, like rock music, hell even like about half of country.


Very uneducated answer.  I'm a little tired of people listening to something for 5 minutes and deciding they know what the entire point of it is.  

Yes most blues is bad, most rock is bad, most jazz is bad, most country is bad, but most metal is bad as well, if you remember.  Genre's strangle good artists with crap.  Jazz can be just as meaningful as anything else when the right artist applies it.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Adventure_Man on December 15, 2006, 09:18:23 PM
Quote
...................................1. Technicality-What key is the piece in, how is it timed, how many melodies/counter melodies are happening, how well does it all work together
2. skill- how well does the band play their instruments. Is the lead singer good? If there are lyrics, are they interesting, relevent or thought provoking? Do the lyrics evoke an emotion, or a memory?
3. Music as well as art doesn't have to be all serious all the time, conform to any genre, use only one or two styles, or have to impress anybody, sometimes simple can be good.


Sounds like how I make a good stock pick on the market.
:P :-*
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 16, 2006, 05:23:57 PM
i completely agree with buckets of rain, every genre gets overrun by lesser bands/groups/artists, we just care more because no one asides from us knows what
a real metal band is, you don't have to listen to a lot of jazz to be able to tell a good group from a bad one, as long as your musically competent its easy, its just metal hides itself in noise so even a musically competent person will say it is naught but noise
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on December 22, 2006, 09:27:55 PM
Quote
i completely agree with buckets of rain, every genre gets overrun by lesser bands/groups/artists


It's a constant battle against entropy.

When you have a house or apartment, it's amazing how fast it fills up with stuff. Equipment, food, gifts, junk, wrappers, pizza boxes, you name it. So you either clean every week and throw out stuff as soon as it comes in, or you end up making a ghetto of your nice home.

Art is the same way. It takes constant genius artists to drive away the tools, morons, hipsters, imitators, cheese-bearers, clones, idiots, Christians and New Agers.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Josef K. on December 23, 2006, 06:41:12 AM
Will someone, for the love of hell, introduce the missing 'g' in this thread's title?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 23, 2006, 08:08:26 AM
Sorry Joseph.  We all talked it over and decided their was more artistic value in leaving the imperfection in the title.

If I could change anything about this thread it would be the stupid first line "If classical forged the way for rock".  I know I've said that plenty though.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 23, 2006, 01:55:59 PM
but in the 60's the rock bands were few and far between, only rock greats as far as the eye can see, back when rock meant something, well times change
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: hasheeshian on December 28, 2006, 12:08:58 AM
first of all:  fuck 'the blues.'  blues are a 1 mg dosage of xanax, not a genre of music, and any self-respecting hessian knows that.  

by the way, here's where rock music came from (drumroll):  2 and 4, the fucking backbeat that has been inuitively occuring via hand claps in african-american gospel music for about 200 years now.
backbeat wandered out of the church and onto a snare drum about 100 years ago and the rest is history.  honestly, what the fuck are the fucking blues?  we crackers have black people to thank for teaching us about natural rhythm.  

i digress to the original subject.  we all know very little is happening in contemporary metal.  the only two bands that come to my mind are isis and mastodon.  oh and the melvins are still at it too.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Hyvolgen on December 28, 2006, 12:29:25 AM
(late reply)

Quote
Death to simple rhythms.
Quote
I guess that means no more Transylvanian hungar as well.  Everyone knows that less is less after all.

Rhythm = When the notes are played
Melody = What notes are played

Transylvanian Hunger = Melody
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 28, 2006, 10:26:39 AM
heh.  Sarcasm, friend.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on December 28, 2006, 03:00:24 PM
Quote
but in the 60's the rock bands were few and far between, only rock greats as far as the eye can see, back when rock meant something, well times change


It was new and uncluttered by common minds, the same way black metal was in the early 90's
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 28, 2006, 06:48:03 PM
I guess when I was thinking about classical vs. rock in my original post, I was thinking about good rock, as mentioned by many, the progressive rock bands (The Doors, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin etc). I can see some Blues influence, but not so much as Classical influence, especially in the melodies. I consider groups like the Beatles to have much more blues influence than the progressive bands that did indeed pave the way for more contemporary metal.

I think that for new, really good music, people need to just forget about genres, styles other groups have been labeled under, and past techniques. I think music is much more pure when basic structures+personal ingenuity and inventiveness and of course natural artisticness all meet up. That's what made so many groups in the past great. When reading interviews with bands, their personal favorites sound much much different than the music they make themselves. Maybe too many people have stuck to the formula way too much over time. Then again, metalheads often complain about anything that actually does end up sounding different. I think there are a lot of hurdles for newer musical groups to get through that make it almost impossible to even sit down and create good music.What's the process for uncluttering any artistic process? Sticking with what's good and ignoring the rest? Or maybe simply ignoring any and all other opinions and just creating.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 28, 2006, 07:09:14 PM
led zeppelin are far more blues then classical, i still don't think any rock group in the traditional sense is classically based, especially since rock music was to begin with a revolt against complicated forms of music
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: buckets_of_rain on December 29, 2006, 11:22:51 AM
If you think people should forget about genres, then why did you ask this "What's next" in a string of genres in the first place?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 29, 2006, 04:11:48 PM
Quote


Then again, metalheads often complain about anything that actually does end up sounding different.


if that were true we would hate any of the original black metal bands, dead can dance, all doom metal acts, atheist, slayer, sodom, neptune towers, bathory, all grindcore bands, Celtic frost, possessed, master, all folk inspired bands and any band that took progressive rock as a influence (not including king crimson)  
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 29, 2006, 08:40:51 PM
You're right, Zeppelin had a goodly amount of blues influence along with the classical. I don't really think it was a string of genres, just somewhat of an outline to try to minimize arguments about simple crap. I was being sarcastic, a little bit, with the metalheads being critical about certain groups and metal genres, but honestly, so many people will look at only the first couple bands in a genre to do something as being "the masters of the art form" ::)  I think that in most cases, the influences for a genre sound far different than the genre itself. For instance, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds were at the beginning of the modern goth movement, and yet now, groups like Ohgr and Spahn Ranch are considered goth (I've even seen Wolfsheim labeled as goth www.gotblack.com/radio . Two completely different sounds and styles within the labeled genre. That's why, at a certain point, genres become somewhat meaningless.

Those last questions were honest questions.Can anybody unclutter their minds enough to simply create without really any past influences in mind, going simply from what flows through one's mind?

Is this possible?


Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 29, 2006, 09:02:41 PM
thats probably (and i say probably because i don't no any of the later bands you mentioned) because they aren't goth, its just like people calling slipknot metal, it just ain't
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: glinda on December 29, 2006, 09:10:18 PM
could be. Goth is so degenerate nowadays anyway, much like metal, the Goth scene used to be about romanticism and art, and has slowly degenerated into Slipknot(metal)and Combichrist(goth). I guess I'm just dissapointed in most music lately. Most of the joy and happiness I've been able to find in music has beed discovering or rediscovering older music. I guess if the generation and culture are crap, the music is too, for the most part.
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on December 29, 2006, 09:54:40 PM
almost every single modern band (as in they joined recently not an older band currently going) sounds all very retro, because it is. Everything most of these bands do has been done time and time again, they simple add in some stylistic features that are modern
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: born for banning on January 07, 2007, 04:36:41 PM
Quote
Everything most of these bands do has been done time and time again, they simple add in some stylistic features that are modern


This might be a serious problem with simplistic music and a good reason to avoid it.

Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: Wraith on January 07, 2007, 07:39:28 PM
Bathory? Burzum? Darkthrone?
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 07, 2007, 07:50:20 PM
metal doesn't try or claim it has done anything new musically or ideologically

It simple brings musical convention and ideas of older times back with a modern touch  
Title: Re: What's next and who's doin it?
Post by: death metal black metal on July 20, 2015, 05:09:52 AM
What's next is... nothing. Metal is awash in parasitic fans who want idiocy and will not produce anything until that changes. It is an occupied land.