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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: Conservationist on February 05, 2012, 07:23:44 AM

Title: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Conservationist on February 05, 2012, 07:23:44 AM
They're Siberian immigrants.

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The Altai region of southern Siberia has played a critical role in the peopling of northern Asia as an entry point into Siberia and a possible homeland for ancestral Native Americans. It has an old and rich history because humans have inhabited this area since the Paleolithic. Today, the Altai region is home to numerous Turkic-speaking ethnic groups, which have been divided into northern and southern clusters based on linguistic, cultural, and anthropological traits. To untangle Altaian genetic histories, we analyzed mtDNA and Y chromosome variation in northern and southern Altaian populations. All mtDNAs were assayed by PCR-RFLP analysis and control region sequencing, and the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome was scored for more than 100 biallelic markers and 17 Y-STRs. Based on these data, we noted differences in the origin and population history of Altaian ethnic groups, with northern Altaians appearing more like Yeniseian, Ugric, and Samoyedic speakers to the north, and southern Altaians having greater affinities to other Turkic speaking populations of southern Siberia and Central Asia. Moreover, high-resolution analysis of Y chromosome haplogroup Q has allowed us to reshape the phylogeny of this branch, making connections between populations of the New World and Old World more apparent and demonstrating that southern Altaians and Native Americans share a recent common ancestor.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711005490
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: in abyssia on February 05, 2012, 06:49:02 PM
Genetics was a very difficult course for me. Much harder than physical chemistry was. Kudos to you if you're keen on this subject.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Sammaellofi on February 06, 2012, 08:27:43 AM
Well more or less, this had to be what happened.  If no from Siberia, they would have had to have been seafaring, because with their lack of history in the continent, there is no way they could have originated here. 

But in any case, the term Native American still holds good because they had been here for something like 10,000 years and developed a culture here that was distrurbed and was just as much destroyed in the same way as Europe is being destroyed by the same problem now.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Dinaric Leather on February 06, 2012, 11:48:14 AM
Oh come on now, how long do you have to be living somewhere for it to be your home? Many European tribes, including very distinguished nations such as England, were not always in their current geographic position.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Cargést on February 06, 2012, 12:39:15 PM
Exactly.  Most Europeans aren't the first settlers of their "ancestral lands".  Everyone seems to forget the Picts, Britons, Saami, ancestors of the Basque people etc.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Conservationist on February 06, 2012, 03:02:47 PM
People are so quick to revert to what they've been told to think.

They aren't native; they're immigrant populations.

Whereas Europeans are indigenous to Europe, even if they shifted around a bit or in the case of the English, found a way to reproduce asexually.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Cargést on February 06, 2012, 06:28:08 PM
Europeans are indigenous to the Caucasus.  We migrated West into Europe.  The first inhabitants of "Europe" were more ancient peoples who travelled from the North, probably originally from Asia.  The Europeans pushed them out to the fringes of the West, to the British Isles and parts of Iberia, before almost entirely wiping them out (Roman/Germanic invasions).
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Sammaellofi on February 06, 2012, 08:45:25 PM
Look, people move about and new cultures form.  That is very clear and it is a fact of life.  I think the main objective though is to preserve a culture that forms if it is advantagous to raising healthy children, and one that holds real moral value, producing a strong people. 

I will admit my orginal attack against migration has been put in a different light.  My own German roots derive from a mixing of a pastoral people and the sky god worshipping Proto Europeans from the Caucuses. 

I think cultures form frorm regions as much as blood (not to diminish the latter too much though) and the needs of living on that land.  Cultures that enter new regions that differ very much from the region they came from can create damaging results. 
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Cargést on February 07, 2012, 12:46:29 AM
Or pretty good ones (see Saxons everywhere).
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Sammaellofi on February 07, 2012, 07:40:29 AM
Or pretty good ones (see Saxons everywhere).

I would say England between 800 and 1500 AD was the most ideal order for a society that Europe had ever scene.  Close enough to nature to still abide by it's rules, but sophisticated enough to transcend bounderies while maintaining a strong code of values.  Before and after the Normans, the case is the same.

Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Cargést on February 07, 2012, 12:26:23 PM
Normans are Danish cousins.  Christians, true, but it stands to reason that their core values would be the same as other recently Christianised Germanics.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Sammaellofi on February 07, 2012, 02:39:32 PM
Oh yeah, and that's definitely why the culture suffered no severe change other than the innovation of stone castles.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Dinaric Leather on February 08, 2012, 12:09:37 AM
or in the case of the English, found a way to reproduce asexually.
I know I'm derailing the thread, but why all the English bashing? Yeah they act a little goofy, and they all think they're fucking comedians, but they had the largest empire known to history. I can respect that.

Sure, their culture might be in shambles, but thats only because they were high up so they fell hard. Countries like Poland, despite their current political position are more culturally intact because they were well past their heyday of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the time the liberal disease really took hold, same with other ex-great powers such as Italy, Spain, Greece and many others. Britain was high and mighty when it happened so they got fucked, just like the Americans and Germans or Frenchmen or whoever else happened to be a major power around the 1800s and early 1900s
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Conservationist on February 08, 2012, 04:15:23 AM
I know I'm derailing the thread, but why all the English bashing?

If we're going to bag on African-Americans and the Irish for their failings, it's only fair to note that the once-greatest empire on earth wimped out and started lisping over the last 50 years, and it's really horrible.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Cargést on February 08, 2012, 07:14:33 AM
England died a long time ago.  There are still a few English people living (I know most of them, I think...), but most of the inhabitants of "Great Britain" are swarthy, small, dark Foreigners/Aboriginals, even if they've got a bit of English blood in them somewhere down the line (not enough to make them not suck).  Look at our bloody politicians, for fuck's sake - count the number of dark, mixed race, or downright foreign politicians there are in our country, next to the number of blonde, blue eyed, Germanic politicians.  Our most recent Prime Ministers/Opposition leaders have, between them, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Dutch, French, Spanish, Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, Byzantine, Chinese, and Jewish blood (the Milibands are Jews, if they're ever given any power I am instigating a revolution).
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: analrapist on February 08, 2012, 12:17:12 PM
These aren't your leaders, these are your employees. Diversity is so boring because it turns every place into the same muck.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Dinaric Leather on February 08, 2012, 04:00:08 PM
Byzantine
I thought Byzantines were a historic politcal state made up mostly of Greeks and not an ethnic group in itself.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: scourge on February 08, 2012, 04:21:13 PM
adj.;

Quote
often not capitalized
a : of, relating to, or characterized by a devious and usually surreptitious manner of operation <a Byzantine power struggle>
b : intricately involved : labyrinthine <rules of Byzantine complexity>
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Dinaric Leather on February 19, 2012, 02:21:49 AM
adj.;

Quote
often not capitalized
a : of, relating to, or characterized by a devious and usually surreptitious manner of operation <a Byzantine power struggle>
b : intricately involved : labyrinthine <rules of Byzantine complexity>
So he was just saying that a British Prime Minister had deviously surreptitious blood?
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Cargést on February 19, 2012, 04:27:11 AM
Quote
Byzantine:

Adjective:   
Of or relating to Byzantium, the Byzantine Empire, or the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Noun:   
A citizen of Byzantium or the Byzantine Empire.

Y'all need to stop using Webster's "dictionary".
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Conservationist on February 19, 2012, 04:37:09 AM
As soon as the OED publishes an online resource that we can cite, we'll use it...

Here's Random House:

Quote
Byzˇanˇtine
   [biz-uhn-teen, -tahyn, bahy-zuhn-, bih-zan-tin] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to Byzantium.
2.
of or pertaining to the Byzantine Empire.
3.
noting or pertaining to the architecture of the Byzantine Empire  and to architecture influenced by or imitating it: characterized by masonry construction, round arches, impost blocks, low domes on pendentives, the presence of fine, spiky foliage patterns in low relief on stone capitals and moldings, and the use of frescoes, mosaics, and revetments of fine stone to cover whole interiors.
4.
Fine Arts . pertaining to or designating the style of the fine or decorative arts developed and elaborated in the Byzantine Empire  and its provinces: characterized chiefly by an ecclesiastically prescribed iconography, highly formal structure, severe confinement of pictorial space to a shallow depth, and the use of rich, often sumptuous color.
5.
( sometimes lowercase ) complex or intricate: a deal requiring Byzantine financing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/byzantine

More detailed at least.
Title: Re: There are no "Native Americans"
Post by: Jim Necroslaughter on February 19, 2012, 10:16:55 AM
Ya'll don't own your own OED?  Amateurs.