100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Metal => Topic started by: 8dj47ghj349gf on January 22, 2007, 02:23:02 PM

Title: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: 8dj47ghj349gf on January 22, 2007, 02:23:02 PM
Music is distinguished from all the other arts by the fact that it is not a copy of the phenomenon...but a direct copy of the will itself

-Arthur Schopenhauer

Nietzsche says music can give birth to myth and tragedy, both being necessary components of a culture capable of creating and improving civilization.  

Can someone please elaborate on these ideas in a more simplistic and repetitive fashion so that I can acquire a more precise understanding of what this means?

I challenge that all forms of art have confines in which they must begin and end; and they all have potential to accommodate rational (apollo) and irrational (dionysian) forces so as to demonstrate their unified importance in the grand scheme of things (as all art of worth does).  
So again, explain to me you supreme intellects (if it is of ease for you to do so, for I could figure it out on my own if I had to) what it is that makes music unique, that gives it and only it the ability to give birth to myth and tragedy?
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 22, 2007, 03:23:07 PM
i do not believe music alone does this, visual art seems to have a similar effect as does other forms of art (martial arts, literature even gardening if you treat it as such)

some art may be to destroy myths while others create them, some create a sense of peace and harmony while others offer a more assertive way of life which involves necessary violence, i would say without a doubt there will be some art that goes with what you have said but im sure there would be just as much art to oppose those ideas
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: Azazel on January 22, 2007, 05:55:56 PM
How does this make music essential to life?
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: fronk696 on January 22, 2007, 06:38:45 PM
Think about it dude.  As an example, now we hear a person with a very good singing voice and just simply think "Wow, she/he has a very good voice" but back in the ages, they heard it and felt that there was some mystical force behind the singing.  Christians, for example, in the past believed(maybe some still do today) that music is language of the Angels.  Music probably was the basic foundations of some cultures.  So for building a civilisation, YES music, just ART in general, is very, very important. Whether music is important in terms of need as a species and its relationship with nature, many believe not.

Experiance is what really gives you answers you seek so I'll just suggest that you listen to the voice of someone like a female opera singer, not even that just the hot chick from Evanesence will do (I suggest, very arbitrarily, the song Lithium) any singing displaying beauty instead of horror like the psychos we listen to.  I mean REALLY listen to it.  Close the eyes. Resist the urge to hate it and call it wussy and mediocre.  Forget the lyrics, and really let yourself feel the voice.  Breath it in.   If you genuinally feel something, like a tingle running through your spine leading to goosebumps, THAT is when you want to imagine what people in the past, when music had been new, must of thought and believed when they heard such things.

Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 22, 2007, 07:34:30 PM
Quote
How does this make music essential to life?


well your right about that, i completely avoided the question, hopefully with this attempt i will say something relevant

i agree with fronk696 that music was a much more powerful force in older times but even today it still captivates many people and becomes a very important tool in which to express themselves

perhaps this is so because many people cannot live the lives they wish to lead and instead take up the next closest thing, whether it be music, literature, verbal story telling (in older ages)

so it could be a way for humans to relive (or live 2nd hand) the events of another  
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: fronk696 on January 22, 2007, 08:37:57 PM
Music has been such an important part of many peoples lives.  I, for one thank goodness that music was "invented"(metal being the prime blessing, of course).  I don't even want to imagine how empty my life would've been without music.  Many of you guys might feel the same.  But there are also many people out there who don't care at all about music

So I ask you guys to really imagine this when I ask you this question:

What do you think the world would be like NOW, had music NEVER, EVER been concieved?
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 22, 2007, 08:46:59 PM
i would say it would much be the same, except other forms of art that would have taken dominance
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 22, 2007, 10:29:50 PM
"Noble and manly music invigorates the spirit, strengthens the wavering man, and incites him to great and worthy deeds" -Plato

perhaps music is nothing more then a vessel in which such emotions can carry and inspire, but inspiration of the like can come from many sources

"Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war" -Homer

But this suggests that music cannot satisfy the spirits of men without real action to be taken, not just referred to, maybe this has something to do with the church burnings  
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: 8dj47ghj349gf on January 23, 2007, 03:05:30 PM
No one was able to answer my question, anyone wanna give it another try?  (Not that I don't appreciate the replies though.)

Quote
What do you think the world would be like NOW, had music NEVER, EVER been concieved?


A lot less...vibrant
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: Cynical on January 23, 2007, 06:46:41 PM
Quote
Music is distinguished from all the other arts by the fact that it is not a copy of the phenomenon...but a direct copy of the will itself

-Arthur Schopenhauer

Nietzsche says music can give birth to myth and tragedy, both being necessary components of a culture capable of creating and improving civilization.  

Can someone please elaborate on these ideas in a more simplistic and repetitive fashion so that I can acquire a more precise understanding of what this means?

I challenge that all forms of art have confines in which they must begin and end; and they all have potential to accommodate rational (apollo) and irrational (dionysian) forces so as to demonstrate their unified importance in the grand scheme of things (as all art of worth does).  
So again, explain to me you supreme intellects (if it is of ease for you to do so, for I could figure it out on my own if I had to) what it is that makes music unique, that gives it and only it the ability to give birth to myth and tragedy?

The answer is contained directly in that Schopenhauer quote.  All other arts are a copying of the external form of some thing.  You paint an object.  A play is a recreation of an event.  Music differs, in that if you write a musical piece about something, you don't try to make your song physically "look" like the topic.  Rather, you conjure the passions, the will, of the topic in aural form.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: fronk696 on January 23, 2007, 08:36:40 PM
Quote
No one was able to answer my question, anyone wanna give it another try?  (Not that I don't appreciate the replies though.)

[/i]


That is why I think my question is important to answer your question.  Ok, I'll word it differently:

What can you IMAGINE the world (humans as a society, civilisation, as a whole) would be like IF music had never existed?

Why its so unique?  Well I'll simply ask you this:

Does a painting want to make you head-bang?

Does amazingly soul-capturing building structures make you want to swing your hips and dance?

Does music not make your very limbs react sub-consciously?
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: aerator on January 24, 2007, 02:33:11 AM
Quote
What can you IMAGINE the world (humans as a society, civilisation, as a whole) would be like IF music had never existed?


Are you a troll, or just retarded? The "HAIL SATAN's cab" suggests a moronic hipster.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: fronk696 on January 24, 2007, 10:32:51 AM
Quote

Are you a troll, or just retarded? The "HAIL SATAN's cab" suggests a moronic hipster.


Nah, my friend Alric is a Troll, we already figured that out.  Retarded?  I don't know.  Maybe.  "MUMMY!!! I'm I retardeded?"  Oh, that's right, she's not here.  Oh well.

And I'm not suggesting anything.  My friend Satan gets drunk all the time and he ALWAYS misses his cab when we call for one.  So literally, hail the cab.  Quick.  Before it drives off again.  Seriously.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: born for banning on January 24, 2007, 11:08:04 AM
Back on topic...

Music doesn't use symbols. The closest it gets are leitmotifs, and those are non-linear, "prismatic" as a certain pretentious writer would say.

So music goes right into your mind, where words and visuals require interpretation.

Music is a virus.

Metal's the best virus we have.

Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 24, 2007, 11:10:53 AM
i can agree with you there, music goes straight to the mind, visuals applied or lyrics added just give it a more direct focus
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: fronk696 on January 24, 2007, 11:44:43 AM
It goes to more than your mind.  Music goes to your arms, legs.  Goes in your spine, in your heart.  Makes your teeth clench, your eyebrows stretch or desend.  Metal is so wonderful 'cause it's extreme.  It's the only music(I know of) with double-kick bassdrum used in such ferosity and velocity.  That double-kick alone feels like it takes command of your heart-beat.  The snare resonates in your head letting you time a single head-bang to a specific snare hit.  THAT IS JUST THE DRUMS!!!!! The other instruments do a wonderfully different effect to each and every one of us, so I won't bother with them.  Metal is essential because it separates US from THEM AND separates YOU from ME, if you get my meaning.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: born for banning on January 24, 2007, 04:17:41 PM
Quote
i can agree with you there, music goes straight to the mind, visuals applied or lyrics added just give it a more direct focus


They're "research materials" for figuring out WHY the music has its effects.

Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on January 24, 2007, 04:47:56 PM
Music moves the intangible within comprehension. It's the moon over the high tide of your spirit.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: we hope you die on January 25, 2007, 10:41:33 AM
Instead of imagine what the human race would be like without music, it would be more useful to imagine the world from a deaf persons perspective. Or imagine a blind person never being able to view works of art. People who lack a certain sense have something missing from their lives but can get more out of their other senses because they are more focused as a result.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 25, 2007, 11:50:04 AM
Beethoven stilled enjoyed music when he became deaf, and some of his best works were written then as well
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: born for banning on January 25, 2007, 12:57:32 PM
Quote
Beethoven stilled enjoyed music when he became deaf, and some of his best works were written then as well


He wasn't living without music... he just wasn't hearing it played.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 25, 2007, 01:30:50 PM
he still knew what it would sound like, he could also here the vibrations caused by his piano when he removed the legs and put his head on the ground, this is exactly the same as hearing except he inst using his ear, bu he is still detecting the vibrations in the air (or in this case ground)

Maybe i should have though of that before i mentioned him, because now that i think about it could here and in a sense was not deaf
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: 8dj47ghj349gf on January 25, 2007, 07:16:54 PM
Quote
The answer is contained directly in that Schopenhauer quote.  All other arts are a copying of the external form of some thing.  You paint an object.  A play is a recreation of an event.  Music differs, in that if you write a musical piece about something, you don't try to make your song physically "look" like the topic.  Rather, you conjure the passions, the will, of the topic in aural form.


Ding Ding!  
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: Dylar on January 26, 2007, 10:26:23 AM
I actually wrote a little blurb on this precise idea a year ago:

Music is the most abstract form of artistic expression, and thus, the most ambiguous.  Visual media -- film, painting, sculpure, photography etc. -- usually ultilize some sort of directly representational expressive technique.  That is, visual expression corresponds to the "real world" without being mediated through language.  As a result, visual media require less effort on the part of the audience to decode.  

Literature and music, on the other hand, have no direct correspondence to the real world.  They must be mediated by language, requiring at least one extra layer of symbolic expression that must be decoded before an audience can apprehend the artistic content (much less comprehend it).  Because a large measure of collective consensus exists regarding meaning within formal languages, literary works operate within a framework that is relatively well understood and largely codified.  Even if some writers occasionally "play" with the value and meaning of words, English remains English , Spanish, Spanish, Urdu, Urdu, regardless of the work or author.

Music exists in a far less symbolically formalized environment.  Ideally, each composer and artist develops his or her own unique musical language or dialect.  As a result, music is the most purely structuralist form of expression; ideas are encoded within a unique language or idiom that can only be interpreted through the relationships between expressive structures internal to the work itself.  In a sense, music is a language (really, languages) that consists entirely of neologisms.  While this means music can "speak" with far more spiritual precision than other media, it also buries content within many layers of ambiguity, and thus requires maximum effort on the part of would-be interpreters.
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on January 26, 2007, 10:37:43 AM
well im siding with my man Mahmoud, very good argument

Does this wrap it up or is there still other great ideas out there?
Title: Re: Why is Music so Unique and Essential?
Post by: born for banning on February 06, 2007, 12:21:27 PM
Music is something that communicates on a level below the self-conscious. You don't have to parse it. You just let it happen to you.

Like political rallies, religious events, battle or games.