100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: crow on April 24, 2013, 02:26:08 PM

Title: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 24, 2013, 02:26:08 PM
If you approach everything you do, think, want and experience, from the perspective of "what's in it for me?" then you are in all respects normal. This could well be described as what humans do.
But what if something you discovered, explained itself to you as "it was never about you, and never will be"?
I suggest that this state is indeed possible to experience and realize.

People go after what ever they go after for personal gain. Especially so-called 'altruists'.
This is what motivates the religious, the political, the entrepreneurs, the welfare-cases; almost everybody, in fact.

I have discovered that riches beyond measure come to those who are able to step outside of 'whats in it for me', and instead to go forth in a state of complete humility, vis-a-vis life.

Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: Phoenix on April 25, 2013, 09:40:32 PM
I believe that the pursuit of something worth pursuing is a valid one, as it's what motivates us and its lessons teach us to abandon the short-term blissful ignorance and fear of egocentric tunnel-vision. You yourself state that "riches beyond measure" come to those who succeed in transcending their ego. To say that desire for personal gain leads to ignorance is false as much as to say that desire for personal loss leads to ignorance is obvious. Personal gain for yourself does not entail personal loss for others, as if resources were limited or one's status and qualities were defined in relation to those of others, but rather personal gain is a matter of balance, resulting in complementariness and  harmony with yourself and your environment.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 25, 2013, 10:03:30 PM
I don't know how you manage so consistently to not understand anything, but there you've done it again.
What I wrote stands. It is true. It works. Take it or leave it (alone).

Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: Phoenix on April 25, 2013, 10:21:24 PM
Perhaps I meant to add to it complimentarily.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 25, 2013, 10:25:21 PM
It neither added or complemented. It took what was, and turned it into rubbish.
But that is a great example of what people so often do to anything they fail to grasp:
They automatically convert it into something they do grasp.
And so add nothing to what they know, while making sure nobody else can either.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: trystero on April 26, 2013, 06:25:00 AM
I see the point, but I dont entirely agree with it. The reason is because of the fake altruists that you mention. The people who think they live for others but live for themselves. Perhaps for some of them, they need to realize that wanting something for yourself is not only normal, it is natural, a primal urge of life. Just not the source of happiness.

This is the same as realizing that its not all about you because these people are essentially solipsists who see the world in terms of themselves no matter what beliefs they state. Religion is a way of looking past this in fact, but not `personal` religion. The cult of love is the church of the ego and is a gross perversion of the revealed. Once you at least have the perspective of something greater than yourself, the rest has a chance to follow. Research supports the religious being genuinely altruistic.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 26, 2013, 10:22:25 AM
That's a rare bit of insight. Good reading :)
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: lost_wanderer on April 26, 2013, 10:23:55 AM
I believe that the pursuit of something worth pursuing is a valid one, as it's what motivates us and its lessons teach us to abandon the short-term blissful ignorance and fear of egocentric tunnel-vision. You yourself state that "riches beyond measure" come to those who succeed in transcending their ego. To say that desire for personal gain leads to ignorance is false as much as to say that desire for personal loss leads to ignorance is obvious. Personal gain for yourself does not entail personal loss for others, as if resources were limited or one's status and qualities were defined in relation to those of others, but rather personal gain is a matter of balance, resulting in complementariness and  harmony with yourself and your environment.

Personnal gain is like stealing something that isn't yours. Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's, some dude once said.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: Phoenix on April 26, 2013, 03:20:04 PM
Personnal gain is like stealing something that isn't yours.

Fake, misguided personal gain is that way, I would say. Gain is subjective. Ultimately in the definitions of "personal" and "gain" there's no implication that you're stealing anything, or even acquiring anything, it just means you've advanced in striving for your goals.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 26, 2013, 04:34:59 PM
The idea is not to do what you do with the explicit motivation of personal gain.
Like hallucinogens: doing them can be a blast, and give considerable insight, but ultimately will not lead to a destination that is a destination.
When you do what you do because it needs doing, for the glory (of itself, not yours), then the result may be spectacular in terms of what is incidently returned to you.
It's a viewpoint that you either see, or don't see. And if you do not see it, it will make no sense at all.

Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: trystero on April 26, 2013, 05:33:38 PM
When you do what you do because it needs doing, for the glory (of itself, not yours), then the result may be spectacular in terms of what is incidently returned to you.

This is the key to great art, and is one of the reasons why we love great metal. For they can be just spectacular full stop (it doesnt have to be in terms of you remember!). Such things seem to resonate with us for some magical or biological reason.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: MediterraneanSun on April 27, 2013, 11:19:43 AM
Getting some personal gain I think it's kind of necessary to keep the system running. But I mean little momments of happiness, that's what I call gain, score a goal if you play soccer, write a good program if you are a programmer, write a wonderful piece of music if you are a composer, all these bring some little moments of happiness that need to exist in regular intervals to keep the system running as I said, which means that they are by no means the entirety of what is valuable. They are only the gasoline.

This kind of gain is needed. But..........

There is something odd. I've come to believe that if you seek it, you kill it. It's a butterfly-wings like phenomenon. You touch it, bang it's dead, it loses it's purity. Therefore I believe you should embrace personal little "gains" but not seek them because you MIGHT (depends on the character) start becoming some kind of hedonist which is PRACTICALLY bad (I hate preachers, if it wasn't genuinely bad I wouldn't preach about it just because I hated the word).

Personally I rarely think about my personal gain. And I found that even if I try. I can't. I like to build things, create little worlds inside the GREAT ONE (interpret that as you will but I mean music, automations, etc). It also fulfills me to interact with some people that are worthy. Living a life in accordance to something, which something after years and years of trying to define it you reach to the cocnlusion that it is the everything, so in accordance to the will of the cosmos and working to preserve the perennial values of beauty and purity.

To be honest as I'm sitting here right now I can't even think of an action I want to do, for personal gain. What the hell is personal gain anyway? Money? A piece of ass? You can get both of these if you live your life normaly and you don't opt being a bum.

Personal gain is far gone in the past for me, and I didn't even try. Being on a mission is my natural state.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 27, 2013, 11:25:50 AM
Hehe great observations :)

From my own reference library of experiences-past:
One may move purposefully in the direction of enlightenment, but it is only in the moment of relinquishing the desire to attain it, that it can be attained.

Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: Phoenix on April 27, 2013, 12:08:58 PM
Hehe great observations :)

From my own reference library of experiences-past:
One may move purposefully in the direction of enlightenment, but it is only in the moment of relinquishing the desire to attain it, that it can be attained.

Exactly, relinquishing the desire, but not the intention.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 27, 2013, 12:46:41 PM
The intention, too. I pretty much stated, to myself: "I quit".
It was the momentum I had built up, that carried me, after I got out of my own way.
Desire - for what I could get out of it - certainly played its part, but the lesson was that desire defeats itself.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: Phoenix on April 27, 2013, 03:51:23 PM
Must one not have intentions, consciously or unconsciously? Similarly one has desires always, but one can choose to actively pursue them, or simply let them be. If one's intentions are not all aligned, are they not contradictory? People want all sorts of things, and they can't possibly have *all* of it. The human being isn't superman, it has to specialize towards certain specific ends, and if it's not deliberate then it's haphazard (unless one gives their person up by faith to a higher power to direct them).
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 27, 2013, 05:59:14 PM
I'm gonna make you famous. At least indirectly.
Nobody but you and I will ever know that I ever made you famous, but we will know. As cosmically annoying as you have been, in my eyes, it was you who finally gave me the information I now have, as to why whole chunks of Western society are as they are.
You will be pleased to know that the reason things are as they are, is not your fault, or their fault. It is the result of a wholly understandable set of unfortunate circumstances, over which none of you had any control.
Some of us dealt with it with stoic courage, and got on with life.
While others were not able to do that, and settled for another, easier, but far more damaging route.
The secret is no longer a secret, if it ever was a secret.
The mystery is no longer a mystery.
By and by, all will be explained.

Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: Phoenix on April 27, 2013, 10:12:43 PM
Your allegories are well-crafted and I do respect that talent, they give me ideas to improve my own style. But substance-wise it's so difficult to discuss the most nuanced things with the most bulky illustrations.

I do not cling to any notion of 'control', nor do I fear any notion of 'lack of control'. As you so rightly put it, these are merely concepts, separate from and obstructing towards the living of reality. One is never without desire, but one does not always need to fight against existential gridlock and try to manifest their will in sovereign opposition to their very own self in attempt to think outside of an illusionary box. Enlightened, there is no longer any disconnect or delay between desire and action. Desire merely follows intention, however, and intention this minute cannot possibly be separate from your intention the next minute, hour or day, it cannot possibly be separate from your overall paradigm, your overall framework of priorities. When you're enlightened there is no "will" because you simply do as you do, your intention flows naturally into action, but before enlightenment your intention is tangled in self-contradictory knots and you are forced to take stands for and against yourself. Personal gain cannot confuse a person, only misunderstanding personal gain and obsessing over it can. And who is to "blame" for such confusion? Who is to "blame" when a stone becomes lodged in a machine's gears, messing up the works? Things happen, and one's inner mechanic must be most dynamic indeed. We don't choose how and when we make mistakes, but we do respond to them.

And yes, before you say it, one is not to always judge what is and isn't a mistake, everything is and isn't a mistake; the point is that there is an actual process underlying it all, a seamless, incremental, organic, living process, not some perennial blank slate that assumes to be simultaneously everything and nothing in utter emo-esque defiance of both the canvas and the painter that would nullify its own absence of substance.
Title: Re: What's in it for me???
Post by: crow on April 27, 2013, 10:49:46 PM
You know: I have no idea what you are talking about.
But I'll make this observation...

Your questions are never asked with answers in mind.
If an answer is given, it leads only to more questions.
No matter how many answers are given, they only prompt more questions.
There is an exponential quality to this.

You are not alone in this.
The internet and its forums are full of this very phenomenon.
And finally I discover why this is, and what is happening:
Your reality is the inside of your own head.

I am a rare beast, I realize.
I inhabit actual reality, and spend almost no time inside my head.
Thus my world is exceedingly different from the worlds many others inhabit.
Which, I suppose, is why I write what I write, describing it, and what it is like.

I shouldn't need to do this, after all, reality is available to everyone.
Yet so many have withdrawn from it, so completely, that it is like a foreign land.
A fantastic place that is so unlike the inside of a brain that people disbelieve my accounts.
This has long been a difficult thing for me to understand.

We would not be facing societal extinction, if people could remember there was an outside.
I describe it, in the hope that some, at least, will rediscover it.
And plant a tree, build a boat, roof a house, and experience a dawn.
Tend to Eden and share its life.