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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: crow on July 21, 2013, 04:52:42 PM

Title: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: crow on July 21, 2013, 04:52:42 PM
Is there any limit to the distance humans put between themselves and reality?
I've noticed a ludicrous trend that has been becoming ever more ludicrous over several years:
The minimal reporting of what instruments tell us, and what it (apparently) feels like to us.

Minus 5 degrees: feels like minus 20.
2mm. rainfall, feels like 2 feet.
Sunny periods expected: UV danger extreme.
Risk of light breezes.
Stay indoors: thunderstorms a possibility...

I actually enjoy this thing so many seem scared to death of: reality.
Then again, I was always different.


Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: trystero on July 21, 2013, 05:06:38 PM
Our bodies do perceive temperature differently compared to the actual ambient temperature due to a number of factors, chief amongst them being humidity. In very humid conditions, the cooling ability of sweat is mostly lost, so lower temperatures can be dangerously high compared to much higher temperatures in drier locales. It isnt just a matter of feelings before reality, but information really relevant to human beings.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: crow on July 21, 2013, 05:21:14 PM
Who decides what it feels like, for all?
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: dead last on July 21, 2013, 11:07:13 PM
It's a matter of taking into account wind chill and heat index. Sometimes 80 degrees in Indiana feels like 90 degrees in Arizona. Humidity is a factor because at high levels, it makes sweating less effective. Obviously if our sweat can't evaporate quickly, then we won't be able to cool down. Therefore the same objective temperature in two different places will feel different depending on the humidity; hotter to us if the humidity level is high, cooler if it is low.

That's why I like the western states. I like my sweat to work effectively, thanks much.

*edit*

When wind moves over your skin, sweating becomes extra effective, so higher wind chill means lower perceived temperature in general. Forgot to mention that.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: Wild on July 21, 2013, 11:49:56 PM
What if I sweat more than you, yet less than the weatherman?
Are there 3 temperatures?

What if I come from Alaska, and 80 degrees feels unbearably hot?
What if I come from Florida, and 80 degrees feels mild?

How do you know how I feel?
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: death-metal on July 22, 2013, 12:13:50 AM
Who decides what it feels like, for all?

It's set by a standard that allows us the maximum possible excuses. Done by a computer, probably some old Macintosh (AIDS) hooked up to a Cisco router in the basement.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: trystero on July 22, 2013, 02:55:32 AM
Who decides what it feels like, for all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_index

Focus groups of course!
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: dead last on July 22, 2013, 09:00:28 PM
The heat index is only a number, it is not telling you how you feel. You are asking a question as unanswerable as this; "How can you tell me how much TEN is? How can I know that TEN to you means as much as TEN to me? What if MY TEN is greater or less than YOUR TEN? How can we really call it TEN?" Sounds like some sort of solipsism.

It doesn't matter how great or small number X means to you, really, because you will never know how 80 degrees feels to me anyway. We just use it as a measurement for the same reason we name colors. We experience the sensation in a relatively similar way and so it is objective enough to identify consistently and give a name to.

Heat index is a plenty bewildering concept if you want to delve into "the problem of other minds" stuff, but aside from that, it is not so arbitrary or imposing as you make it seem by asking who "decides what it feels like for all".
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: crow on July 22, 2013, 10:06:29 PM
I'll leave the significance of the post for you all to figure out, or not.
So far only two takers.
Language and standards exist for a reason.
When you start redefining what everything means, by changing the very terms you'd use to communicate the change...
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: Wild on July 22, 2013, 10:08:24 PM
Quote
it is not telling you how you feel.
Actually, that's what its purpose is.

Quote
You are asking a question as unanswerable as this; "How can you tell me how much TEN is?
One more than nine.
Two less than twelve.
Five groups of two.

Quote
How can I know that TEN to you means as much as TEN to me?

You can't, but feelings are irrelevant. Ten is not reducible further as an idea, it refers to an event in objective reality.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: crow on July 22, 2013, 11:32:02 PM
I wonder if this is something that can be explained?
Maybe its you either get it, or you don't.
So much of reality is like that.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: trystero on July 23, 2013, 12:06:46 AM
Its purpose is to tell you how you might feel, a perfectly valid purpose, unless you are some extreme, extreme unique outlier. The attitude in opposition is espoused generally by people who dont believe in reality and believe they are truly unique (You cant tell me what temperature I might be feeling!!!).
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: crow on July 23, 2013, 12:40:13 AM
You can be as clever as you like, but if you don't get it, you don't get it.
This is beginning to be a real factor in the fall of civilization.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: trystero on July 23, 2013, 02:03:47 AM
I get it, but the heat index is not at fault. It will be (has been) caught along with decrying subjective interpretation vs. objective reality. You can easily make the point without the example, or with a different one. The problem with a broad stroke is that it pushes aside exceptions, whether or not they are valid. While in some cases this is a good idea, the correct course is not to just push on despite.

If it feels hotter than it is, that has real physiological consequences. If you feel hotter, you are very probably hotter. If perceived temperature is dangerously high, you are dangerously hot, even if true ambient temperature isn't. That is live-or-die reality, it doesn't get any clearer.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: NHA on July 23, 2013, 07:32:36 AM
This thread should probably just be deleted. The original post used a terrible example to illustrate a point.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: crow on July 23, 2013, 10:46:23 AM
What do you think the point was?
What would be a better example?
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: dead last on July 24, 2013, 06:28:52 PM
Quote
it is not telling you how you feel.
Actually, that's what its purpose is.

Quote
You are asking a question as unanswerable as this; "How can you tell me how much TEN is?
One more than nine.
Two less than twelve.
Five groups of two.

Quote
How can I know that TEN to you means as much as TEN to me?

You can't, but feelings are irrelevant. Ten is not reducible further as an idea, it refers to an event in objective reality.

One more than nine? So you are defining a relative value by contrasting it with other relative values? Are you trying to disprove or reinforce my point? Numbers don't refer to events in objective reality in the same way that "snowstorm" or "electron" refers to events in objective reality. A number is like my screen name; we both know what we're talking about, but the rest of "objective reality" cares little what a dead last is or what I mean by it.

Feelings are irrelevant? I am suggesting here that the temperature refined through the heat index is a relatable and quantifiable notion. Feelings are not irrelevant because that is exactly what is being described through the numbers (which you claim exist in objective reality and can therefore be used to relate to them) that we use in temperature. If feelings are indeed irrelevant then haven't you nullified your own point?

I'm trying to say that if a weather forecaster tells you what the heat index is, he is not demanding that you now begin feeling a certain way. He is describing what you can expect. I tell you to drive a fork into your eye (make sure your fingers come into contact with the socket please) and that you will experience much pain. Are you going to tell me that know I am somehow imposing feeling on you?

Crow, I've been lurking this forum for a longer time than most of you would be comfortable with knowing and I look forward to your posts more than any others. However this is a case where clarity would behoove you (there I go again, telling people how to feel  8)). Unless this is indeed some concept too vast to be reiterated with language, which may very well be the case. But if so, why try to share?
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: Wild on July 24, 2013, 07:56:52 PM
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One more than nine? So you are defining a relative value by contrasting it with other relative values?
I wasn't defining anything - just providing different ways for you to contemplate how much 10 is.

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Numbers don't refer to events in objective reality in the same way that "snowstorm" or "electron" refers to events in objective reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

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Feelings are irrelevant?
To the temperature, yes.

Quote
He is describing what you can expect.
Does he have enough knowledge of me to do so?
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: trystero on July 25, 2013, 02:42:35 AM
Does he need to have enough knowledge of you to do so? Are you an extreme outlier? If so, the heat index, and a number of other human measures are irrelevant to you. I thought it was the libs who didn't like to be generalized. "Feeling" here isn't emotion. Also, the measure is not very relevant without the actual temperature being listed and therefore is never listed without the actual temperature.

Mathematics is itself based upon axioms, among which are the sets of numbers, but I don't really understand what the thrust of the argument there is anyway :)
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: dead last on July 25, 2013, 08:06:58 AM
Sure, link me to a wikipedia page, that's not the most dismissive and pedantic way to abandon an argument.

I'm trying to emphasize that mathematics and language are human-imposed translations of natural occurrences (things that occur with or without our knowledge and consent). But you are getting so bogged down in mysteriously shrouded semantics that you can't even stay on the same conceptual level here. I'll repeat it once more and then I give up because it is clear you are not interested in thoroughly explaining or even transparently disproving what I'm saying:

Numbers describe things; numbers are not things. You cannot jump back and forth between both positions. Forget about contemplation and try to focus on definition if you want to get anywhere comparing your ideas with those of other minds.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: Wild on July 25, 2013, 09:34:27 AM
Quote
Does he need to have enough knowledge of you to do so? Are you an extreme outlier? If so, the heat index, and a number of other human measures are irrelevant to you.

Does this fellow have enough knowledge to competently declare how millions of people experience reality?
I'm skeptical.

Sometimes I don't even understand what I'm experiencing.
No idea how you guys know what others are experiencing. 

Quote
Sure, link me to a wikipedia page, that's not the most dismissive and pedantic way to abandon an argument.

:'(

Quote
I'm trying to emphasize that mathematics and language are human-imposed translations of natural occurrences (things that occur with or without our knowledge and consent).

No, what you did was state that numbers are inferior for this purpose:

Quote from: you
Numbers don't refer to events in objective reality in the same way that "snowstorm" or "electron" refers to events in objective reality.

Numbers are different from words: there is an objective, reality based physical concept of 10. It cannot be described further. 

Numbers are true in themselves.

The way we use them hardly ever is.

Quote
But you are getting so bogged down in mysteriously shrouded semantics that you can't even stay on the same conceptual level here. I'll repeat it once more and then I give up because it is clear you are not interested in thoroughly explaining or even transparently disproving what I'm saying:

This brightened my day considerably.

Thank you.  :)


Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: Imposition on July 25, 2013, 08:53:46 PM
Quote from: you
Numbers don't refer to events in objective reality in the same way that "snowstorm" or "electron" refers to events in objective reality.

Numbers are different from words: there is an objective, reality based physical concept of 10. It cannot be described further. 


Ahh, now this is a very deep philosophical debate ;)

On the one hand, numbers don't seem to by physical at all. You can't show me the number 10. You can only show me 'sets' of 10 physical things, like apples. But that is different. '10', then, appears to be like a concept - like 'redness' - which has subjective elements. It is not a substance, of which concepts are attached to to describe our world.

On the other hand, there are extremely powerfull *pragmatic* arguments for attributing to '10' (or any other finite number), an objective reality. I.e. we use them in physics, chemistry, engineering etc and using these disciplines we have sent a human being out of the biosphere and into a vacuum to land on another celestial body and then got him home alive. I don't see any way this could have happened if numbers are not 'real' - in some important sense. Similarly, we only posit electrons as entities because we have good pragmatic reasons for doing so. We can't point to an electron or go inside an electron. We posit it's existence as a fundamental particle because of it's effects (which are the only things we can observe). (So the way 'snowstorm' and 'electron' refer to things in objective reality is, I think, different).

Reality is amazingly mysterious and magestic.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: lost_wanderer on July 25, 2013, 09:01:55 PM
numbers doesn't always mean the same thing. 10 degree fahrenheit is not the same thing as 10 degree Celcius.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: Imposition on July 25, 2013, 09:04:12 PM
numbers doesn't always mean the same thing. 10 degree fahrenheit is not the same thing as 10 degree Celcius.

Actually, I think they do. They mean X units of... whatever (Or a set of ten things). 'fahrenheit' and 'Celcius' are the concepts that cause the different meanings that you allude to above, not two different meanings of '10'.
Title: Re: 23 degrees: feels like 28 degrees.
Post by: dead last on July 27, 2013, 01:04:02 PM
Numbers are different from words: there is an objective, reality based physical concept of 10. It cannot be described further. 

Numbers are true in themselves.

The way we use them hardly ever is.

Sorry for bordering on the ad hominem there by the end; I have smeared what could have been an interesting debate. But now at least I understand why I was so frustrated. We disagree on the most crucial determinations about numbers and that's just the matter of our individual experience for now. If you are into the Pythagorean school of thought, then I won't be able to compare our ideas because I still view mathematics as a language that, while brilliant, operates on conceptual levels only (like a computer code; cannot be applied anywhere but in it's own self-referencing framework). If you see numbers as entities in their own right, then I can't see anything wrong with that and so I can't argue it.