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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: Wild on August 12, 2013, 04:16:15 AM

Title: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Wild on August 12, 2013, 04:16:15 AM
Quote
This could still turn out to be some kind of hoax, but it appears that prominent male feminist Hugo Schwyzer went off his meds after his recent public shaming and desperate cry for attention ”suicide attempt,” and then had a massive confessional Twitter meltdown.
~
If these tweets were really from Hugo, he’s admitted that he did it all for the nookie — and some desperately needed attention. He’s admitted that he “talked his way into teaching women’s studies” on the basis of two undergrad courses (his expertise is apparently in British medieval church history) and then “built a career as a well-known online male feminist.” He said he “read one book of Kimmel’s and made [himself] an expert on men and masculinity.” He’s said that he “kept mocking socially awkward men as creeps as a way of making [himself] look better.” He admitted to using his status as a male feminist sexually, even to have sex with a porn star. He “wrote an article in the Atlantic condemning age-disparate relationships the same week that [he] was sleeping with a 23 year-old. And sexting a 27 year-old.” He said that he “I loved being the most notorious bad boy male feminist out there,” and that he “cultivated that shit so hard.”

http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2013/08/is-this-what-a-male-feminists-brain-looks-like/
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 12, 2013, 08:12:02 AM
Man this made my day when it hit. Schwyzer was the most despicable boot-licking opportunist wretch I had ever seen. Still is I guess, because he backtracked from all of that twitter stuff citing his addictions and mental illness, but his tactic of vulnerable honesty wont work this time. You gave too much away Schwyze, its over!
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 12, 2013, 09:26:43 AM
I've always felt that treachery was the worst of the worst attributes a human could have.
Male feminists are right down at the bottom of the septic tank.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 12, 2013, 11:28:55 AM
I've always felt that treachery was the worst of the worst attributes a human could have.
Male feminists are right down at the bottom of the septic tank.

Ranking sins in a heirarchy has always been a weird concept to me, but you are exactly right.

Women are usually too easy to take advantage of. Maybe that's because they lack critical thinking skills that more men are genetically equipped with. I don't know the reason but it is a shameful thing to watch a woman fall for these kind of ploys. In this case I feel less sympathy for the women and more shame for my fellow men.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 13, 2013, 09:56:04 PM
Male feminists are right down at the bottom of the septic tank.

If Mr. Schwyzer is truly "the most despicable boot-licking opportunist wretch" then I doubt he's a good representation of all men sympathetic towards feminism.

Women are usually too easy to take advantage of. Maybe that's because they lack critical thinking skills that more men are genetically equipped with. I don't know the reason but it is a shameful thing to watch a woman fall for these kind of ploys.

It's ridiculous to use this isolated incident as an argument that women are less discerning than men; especially considering that Schwyzer was marketing himself primarily to women, so it's highly unlikely that he would have deceived lots men. Many arguments can be made in favor of women, for example in the third world if you give a woman money they are more likely to invest it wisely rather than spend it on drugs or weapons (or women). But ultimately we're all individuals, nobody's fundamentally defined by gender roles, wouldn't you agree?

In this case I feel less sympathy for the women and more shame for my fellow men.

Your pride and conviction in manhood seems rather delicate to be so easily shamed.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 13, 2013, 10:07:08 PM
I always knew there was something rather odd about you.
It's funny you should suddenly re-surface like this: I was, only yesterday, wondering where you had gone.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 13, 2013, 10:10:27 PM
It's pretty hilarious alright.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 14, 2013, 01:18:41 AM
If Mr. Schwyzer is truly "the most despicable boot-licking opportunist wretch" then I doubt he's a good representation of all men sympathetic towards feminism.

While generally far more successful than most of those people, Schwyze fits the preppy sensitive betaboy male feminist type, the kind of person who is likely to stuff a carrot up his ass then crow about how comfortable he is in his own heterosexuality all day. I partially agree with you, he is far more representative of jewry than male feminists, but a male feminist is a bootlicker and opportunist almost by definition.

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mccr6fQXkP1rik6e9o1_1280.jpg)

The other kind is the man at the bottom of the desirability scale, guys like David Futrelle:

(http://theantifeminist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/david-futrelle.jpg)

Quote
But ultimately we're all individuals, nobody's fundamentally defined by gender roles, wouldn't you agree?

If gender roles exist of course they fundamentally define us. If you were female, you would be fundamentaly different. Unless you are one of the former category of male feminists, in which case probably not.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Annihilation on August 14, 2013, 08:20:58 AM
If gender roles exist of course they fundamentally define us. If you were female, you would be fundamentally different.

The key point here seems to be on the use of the word "fundamentally". I suspect the applicability of this is equivalent to a bell curve.

Out of curiosity, how are those here familiar with these people? Apart from this forum, I have no idea how/why I'd come across this stuff.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 14, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
Male feminists are right down at the bottom of the septic tank.

If Mr. Schwyzer is truly "the most despicable boot-licking opportunist wretch" then I doubt he's a good representation of all men sympathetic towards feminism.

Women are usually too easy to take advantage of. Maybe that's because they lack critical thinking skills that more men are genetically equipped with. I don't know the reason but it is a shameful thing to watch a woman fall for these kind of ploys.

It's ridiculous to use this isolated incident as an argument that women are less discerning than men; especially considering that Schwyzer was marketing himself primarily to women, so it's highly unlikely that he would have deceived lots men. Many arguments can be made in favor of women, for example in the third world if you give a woman money they are more likely to invest it wisely rather than spend it on drugs or weapons (or women). But ultimately we're all individuals, nobody's fundamentally defined by gender roles, wouldn't you agree?

In this case I feel less sympathy for the women and more shame for my fellow men.

Your pride and conviction in manhood seems rather delicate to be so easily shamed.

Nobody is fundamentally defined by gender roles : I agree. "Gender roles" are culturally defined and therefore possible to destruct.

Everyone is fundamentally defined by gender, though. Disagree with this? You must submit to the idea of that all people are in essence a "blank slate"; you must admit to the idea of a non-physical persona; you must admit to superstition. Genetic history defines at least as much if not more than cultural influence. If anything, cultural influence is more fragile.

I agree that is is "ridiculous to use this isolated incident as an argument that women are less discerning than men". Why would you do that?  :)

Unfortunately, I have too much experience with this sort of warped post-feminism bullshit because I spent most of my youth involved in punk and hardcore music and those scenes are riddled with this sort of idiocy.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 14, 2013, 09:49:38 AM

In this case I feel less sympathy for the women and more shame for my fellow men.

Your pride and conviction in manhood seems rather delicate to be so easily shamed.

Call me a hopeless romantic.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Wild on August 14, 2013, 10:25:18 AM
Quote
Nobody is fundamentally defined by gender roles : I agree. "Gender roles" are culturally defined and therefore possible to destruct.
Either one takes the position that women=women and men=men, or they don't.

That choice is one of the dividing questions in modernity.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 10:37:42 AM
There are gender roles because gender roles work.
My wife and I are ancient enough to know this.
She is an ancient housewife. I am an ancient caveman.
It's bliss.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 14, 2013, 03:13:29 PM
Out of curiosity, how are those here familiar with these people? Apart from this forum, I have no idea how/why I'd come across this stuff.

From `manosphere` websites primarily. These are mostly worthless (especially the majority of MRA sites) but the best are explorations of masculinity using a combination of recent scientific work and older wisdom. All are anti-feminist and as a result reactionary, though only these best ones extend this to anti-liberalism and reaction:

(http://habitableworlds.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/darkenlightenment2.png)

Jack Donovan, whose website is linked in the first post, is the most significant to me personally in terms of thought process and a holistic worldview. I would recommend him to the posters here. Chateau heartiste, run by manosphere figure Roissy is probably the most important otherwise. Dalrock is a more virtuous and Christian take on similar matters. The Spearhead is the best website that limits itself to real world issues and anti-feminism, and has given voice to liberal writers as long as they are anti-feminist. Prozak`s take, groin.com is also excellent but provides rather broad, disconnected summaries in the vein of Amerika and the website is not very active.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 14, 2013, 07:27:32 PM
Everyone is fundamentally defined by gender, though.

Agreed.

I'm a male. I recognize that there's tons of discrimination out there against women. There's also some out there against men, but that's a different topic. Against women the discrimination is institutionalized in government, religion, big business and marketing. I'm opposed to this discrimination, like I am to all prejudicial discrimination. Lots of men are. But does this make them male feminists? What's a male feminist? I have no particular desire to describe myself with the label "feminist" but when asked I'll say I'm pro-feminism simply because I'm against the discrimination against women. I think it's a very important issue in this day and age. But I don't have any relationship with the feminist movement nor do I take action in cooperation with it. When I talk about women or when I speak with women, I naturally reflect my values in my words and my interpersonal communication, where I don't try to defend women but I simply express myself normally and I treat them as equals. I'll stand up for what I believe in, but that goes for everything I believe in, not just this issue. It seems I've stumbled onto a hot-button word here though in the term "feminist". I'm certainly not very informed about the feminist movement or feminist philosophy.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 07:49:58 PM
You're Canadian. That's all that needs to be said.
Pierre Trudeau emasculated nearly every man that was a man, years ago.
It's a tribute to his effectiveness that even today, guys like you thank him for it.


Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Imposition on August 14, 2013, 08:31:54 PM
There needs to be some factual basis to ground a discussion like this, or it escalates into mud-slinging.

Is there an 'essence' to gender? If not, then crow et al, you are simply advancing one particular set of gender roles limited to one place in time and space (maybe even your own household) to a unversal level. If so, if male and female biology is different, then to what degree is it different? Obviously anatomically - but psychologically (and then, to what degree. What matrix of segregated social roles would be vindicated by the biological differences?)

Let's free this debate from what ever people have invested in deeper ideological positions like traditionalism vs liberalism.

Let's look at facts. Unless people are willing to present research on gene-environment interactions, or things of that nature, then people may as well sling feces at one another. K?

After that attempt at clarification I will advance one positive-ish argument: One of the ironies of this debate is that we began by talking of certain men - biological human males - who fit more 'feminine' profiles. You might put this down simply to this being a timeless male 'strategy' used by certain TYPES of males (so called 'Beta' males), but even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Imposition on August 14, 2013, 08:50:45 PM
(This is a side question, an appendage to my main post above):

Quote
Nobody is fundamentally defined by gender roles : I agree. "Gender roles" are culturally defined and therefore possible to destruct.
Either one takes the position that women=women and men=men, or they don't.

That choice is one of the dividing questions in modernity.

Imagine that indeed, on average, women=feminine and men=masculine. So traditional gender roles are vindicated.

But you would have to acknowledge there will be exceptions. Nothing in biology is completely binary. So we are going to have the odd masculine women and the odd feminine man (this is assuming that, generally, men=masculine and women=feminine).

Would you still seek to confine these few masculine women in feminine social roles and these few feminine men in masculine social roles?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 08:54:43 PM
The only point I am personally interested in, is the idea that any discrimination is bad.
Even amoebas discriminate. I follow their lead. I discriminate.
Other than that, gender can go fly a kite.
I know what I am, and that's all I need to know.

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 09:02:13 PM
Would you still seek to confine these few masculine women in feminine social roles and these few feminine men in masculine social roles?


Indeed I would. Because to trump the reality of the majority with the self-serving desires of a tiny minority, leads directly to where it has, in fact, led us: to a place of utter chaos.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 14, 2013, 09:17:48 PM
The only point I am personally interested in, is the idea that any discrimination is bad.
Even amoebas discriminate. I follow their lead. I discriminate.
Other than that, gender can go fly a kite.
I know what I am, and that's all I need to know.

As I stated I'm against all prejudicial discrimination.

Also when I was speaking about gender roles I was referring to "a set of social and behavioral norms that are generally considered appropriate for either a man or a woman in a social or interpersonal relationship." (*) (http://A gender role is a set of social and behavioral norms that are generally considered appropriate for either a man or a woman in a social or interpersonal relationship.) My point is that gender roles are just that, "roles", and people who are self-realized don't follow roles, don't do things just because it's the norm. I'm saying that while psychological differences between male and female are obvious (while their qualities and quantities are open for debate of course), ultimately the self-realized individual determines their own nature. At the end of the day it's not that there are many different kinds of men and there are many different kinds of women, it's that there are many different kinds of people, gender being a major but still single factor in the equation of a person's nature.

Come a certain point, to say that a man isn't manly mistakenly assumes that biological gender exists isolated apart rather than interactively with all the other variables constituting a person's makeup. In the vast majority of cases, biologically being a man or a woman is obviously an either/or proposition, and a 'girly' man remains most decidedly male. When viewed through the prism of the human condition in all its facets, however, biological gender ceases to be so black-and-white, and demanding otherwise is like trying to categorize a pool of water into droplets.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 09:41:45 PM
How many 'self-realized' people do you know?
Would you recognize one if you did meet one?
By what criteria would you know?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: lost_wanderer on August 14, 2013, 09:50:34 PM
can you give me exemples of prejudicial discrimination in today's society? I maybe blind but I don't see it that much today with the exception of stupid people and immigrants  having the right to vote.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 14, 2013, 09:52:16 PM
can you give me exemples of prejudicial discrimination in today's society? I maybe blind but I don't see it that much today with the exception of stupid people and immigrants having the right to vote.

How about swaths of the population believing that women are second-class citizens because God says so. Examples are everywhere.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: lost_wanderer on August 14, 2013, 09:57:14 PM
can you give me exemples of prejudicial discrimination in today's society? I maybe blind but I don't see it that much today with the exception of stupid people and immigrants having the right to vote.

How about swaths of the population believing that women are second-class citizens because God says so. Ring any bells?

Maybe in Afghanistan and some place deep south of the usa (and again not so much anymore)  but not here in Canada and for the most part of Occident.

And what's for you a second class citizen?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 10:00:44 PM
And anyway, even if huge swathes of the population believe whatever they believe, who has the right to tell them they're wrong?
Oh, I forgot: left-wing-messiahs.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 14, 2013, 10:04:26 PM
And anyway, even if huge swathes of the population believe whatever they believe, who has the right to tell them they're wrong?
Oh, I forgot: left-wing-messiahs.

Discrimination is, by definition, ignorant because it ignores facts in favor of assumption, unsubstantiated opinion or mistaken faith. It has nothing to do with subjective morality. A person can have a strong emotional revulsion towards homosexuality, but to label homosexuals as criminals like Russia is doing, that, making an ignorant leap from subjective to objective, is discrimination. They're wrong because knowingly or unknowingly their stand is against the evidence.

Maybe in Afghanistan and some place deep south of the usa (and again not so much anymore)  but not here in Canada and for the most part of Occident.

And what's for you a second class citizen?

If you don't see lots of discrimination in the world and if you're curious, I think Google would be a far better resource than chatting with little old me.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 10:18:17 PM
Sane people make better use of their time than Googling new and even-worse things to be outraged at.
So somebody, somewhere is inconvenienced. So what?
I am so very, very sick of left-wing activists, ruining everybody else's lives, as well as their own, because they 'care' so much.
 

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Imposition on August 14, 2013, 10:19:29 PM
Would you still seek to confine these few masculine women in feminine social roles and these few feminine men in masculine social roles?


Indeed I would. Because to trump the reality of the majority with the self-serving desires of a tiny minority, leads directly to where it has, in fact, led us: to a place of utter chaos.

Let's leave very broad, dystopic value judgements of society aside and focus more narrowly if possible.

Wow, so you're not even going with my weaker thesis. In not doing so you're holding that a society in which social roles are LESS TAILORED to individual ability is better than the converse. This just seems like inflexible dogmatism, to me.

I thought the *motivating idea* of fixed gender roles is, in the first place, because such a system tailors social roles to individual ability. If it's not that, then what is it based on? Ideological dogmatism?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: lost_wanderer on August 14, 2013, 10:25:25 PM
I know that there's discrimination in this world but the world is not a monolithic place where there's  great misery everywhere. We can't talk about Russia in the same way that we can talk about Venezuela for exemple. The definition of discrimination and second class citizens can be complicated because there's a lot of factors involved in them.

By the way, a capitalist boss who exploit people in sweatshops do not necessarily discriminate them, just in case you think that exploitation equals discrimination. It maybe not your case but to many people wilingly or unwilingly confound the two terms.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 14, 2013, 10:32:18 PM
This just seems like inflexible dogmatism, to me.
 
I'm sure it does, just as I'm sure your entire life-experience consists of only what you think.
I'm 60. I've lived. I know what works and what doesn't work.
I'd suggest you don't press me on this matter, because I'm doped up on morphine, I have two abscessed teeth, and I'm currently gunning for any sign of left-wing dogma.
If you want a discussion/debate on this, find someone else to have it with.


Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 07:11:51 AM
Maybe this a perfect time to let this thread die, but I always gotta ride that knife edge, ya know?

I'm going to take crow's position, blast it entirely out of proportion with wanton arrogance, and say discrimination is useful on a biological/evolutionary scale. If we allow minorities, who are essentially powerless to do much except complain about the unfairness of being a minority, to dictate the way we make value judgments on their contributions to society, then what are we doing to humans in the long run? Is that more harmful or helpful? Or, is it just a thing that's going to happen? It seems to me that, at worst, it causes a few to suffer so that more will be better off in the future. Is that wrong? I say no. I am in direct opposition to most western social ideals, but who is winning, them or me?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 15, 2013, 08:53:45 AM
even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.

Sorry? What? Where has this idea come from? There is the male gender, there is the female gender and then there is dysfunction. Now dysfunction can be quite colourful and variable sure, but that doesnt mean gender is multi-faceted, it means mental illness is. In any case, the modern discourse about it is completely divorced from the study of this stuff as a problem, due to hurt feelings syndrome.

Take transsexuals for instance; they occur in two broad types, extremely low T, homosexual males who are passive to such an extreme degree that they take on the female identity and autogynephiles, who fetishize women to the point where they gain sexual gratification from seeing themselves as women (this is the source of the stories about burly military guys suddenly finding the female inside). The shallowness of the autogynephile change is hinted at by the sexual preference of these people, they remain 100% heterosexual (they call themselves lesbians!). To transsexual activists, this description is anathema, because they have constructed a different perspective to explain the issue away, one which you seem to share for some unfathomable reason.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 09:08:32 AM
Sanity screams that this thread should die, because it is ugly, ugly, UGLY.
It highlights the scumminess of humanity perfectly.
But here we are, mouthing off, and it's useful to see where it goes.
Who is who? Who is able to control their twitching fingers, and who is automatically wired to explode on nuance?
You don't find justice by outlawing prejudice. You don't stumble across peace by non-discrimination.
You don't save the planet by leveling half of it.

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 09:50:42 AM
even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.

Sorry? What? Where has this idea come from? There is the male gender, there is the female gender and then there is dysfunction. Now dysfunction can be quite colourful and variable sure, but that doesnt mean gender is multi-faceted, it means mental illness is. In any case, the modern discourse about it is completely divorced from the study of this stuff as a problem, due to hurt feelings syndrome.

Take transsexuals for instance; they occur in two broad types, extremely low T, homosexual males who are passive to such an extreme degree that they take on the female identity and autogynephiles, who fetishize women to the point where they gain sexual gratification from seeing themselves as women (this is the source of the stories about burly military guys suddenly finding the female inside). The shallowness of the autogynephile change is hinted at by the sexual preference of these people, they remain 100% heterosexual (they call themselves lesbians!). To transsexual activists, this description is anathema, because they have constructed a different perspective to explain the issue away, one which you seem to share for some unfathomable reason.

There is a breath of sensibly fresh air. It would be more useful without the ad hominems. (My spell-checker just tried to tell me that "hominem" was not a word, suggesting, instead, "Eminem". What in the actual hell?) Maybe we can explore the definitions of a mental disorder in this context of gender identity, and you can explain what it is that makes a man who think he is a woman mentally ill rather than just being unjustly fated?

I am with you so far, I just want to see where you can take this.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 10:01:38 AM
Mental illness could well be described in this context, as holding the conviction that it is the individual's right to offend people publicly, and that any offense taken by the majority is offensive to the individual.
For some unfathomable reason, the leftist believes that only individuals should have their offense recognized, while if the majority registers offense, then it is suddenly not offense at all, but bigotry.

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 10:06:20 AM
Mental illness could well be described in this context, as holding the conviction that it is the individual's right to offend people publicly, and that any offense taken by the majority is offensive to the individual.

My initial reaction is to say that is too generalized and inflexible but, upon examining my motives, I realize I can *not* truthfully say that.

Nevertheless I'm waiting to hear an explanation from the scientific biological perspective, since this is where things are supposed to be grounded when we use terms that were spawned in scientific biology like "gender identity" and "mental illness".
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 10:10:46 AM
Mental illlness is spawned in the self-serving, egotistical, scummy overactive human brain.
And gender-identity was spawned by mentally ill axe-grinders.

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 10:14:33 AM
Mental illlness is spawned in the self-serving, egotistical, scummy overactive human brain.
And gender-identity was spawned by mentally ill axe-grinders.

"Scientific biology" was a euphemism, I suppose.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 10:20:04 AM
Well, we seem to be currently short on available scientists. Thank God.
Although I could hold forth on the effects of morphine on extreme tooth pain, if you're interested.
I am, at this moment, an expert on that very subject.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 10:28:47 AM
I guess you emphasize my unspoken point; we are not going to get a solid explanation or deconstruct the definition in any way that holds up to scientific scrutiny.

Good luck with your teeth. And, though I probably don't need to tell *you* this; morphine is useful but hardly safe. I've dealt with long-term opioid use and, frankly, am bewildered at how I survived the reintegration into reality afterward. It is something that you never really recover from.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 10:44:23 AM
What, are you an ex-junkie?
Glad to hear you're still breathing, if only walking-wounded style.
I am hardly a long-term user of opioids, nor will I be.
It is actually quite unpleasant, in the pharmaceutical form, anyway.
The strange thing is that it doesn't actually seem to minimize the agony, but rather renders one into a state of not-caring about it.
That's my current state: I don't give a fuckin' toss, and possibly my recent comments illustrate this :)

BTW: what is this horrible fascination with so-called 'ad-hominems' being so terribly bad?
As I understand the term, it seems to describe a completely natural human response to dickheaded behaviour. What I don't understand at all is the apparent horror of dickheaded internet users to its use.
But there's hypocrisy for you.
One must always appear to be civilized especially when one isn't.
It's the age of passive-aggression...
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 10:50:42 AM
Yes, if you want to be specifically technical, I am an ex-junkie. I used synthetic opioids for years as a "painkiller". It took me a long time to realize that the pain I was trying to kill went much deeper than just my lower back.

In my case, it's not a fascination with ad hominems, it is the inconsistency with one saying "let's define these terms objectively so that we can come up with a logical conclusion" and then calling the person a faggot because they are unable to do so. I will call people out when they put on the air of "objectivity" and really just use it as a giant's shoulder that they can look down and mock people from.

Furthermore, it is important to draw a distinction between combating an idea and combating an individual. Combating an individual is easy; I have done it lots of times and easily won, just as easily as I have lost. To combat an idea is completely different from combating an individual; an idea is easily "dividual" and you can only win by turning other individuals against it. So, if you make a point to avoid attacking the individual, that gives you a better chance of overcoming the faulty notion because one less mind that is overcome by the notion is one more mind against it.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 10:57:39 AM
Hmmm. No wonder I don't understand it. I am completely without guile.
The only way I can survive on an internet forum is to be an admin.
That's both funny, and true.

So, you had a lot of deep problems, handily disguised as low back pain.
Good for you. That's do or die stuff. You seem to have done, rather than died.
You have some experience, in a world that mostly has none.
Lonely, eh?

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 11:04:36 AM
Well, I'm still young and hormones are coursing through my physiology at an alarmingly inconsistent rate, so I'm embracing this combative spirit while it's active. I figure by the time it wears off, I'll be bored with it anyway. It's one of those arrogantly arbitrary decisions that I so favor.

I did do rather than die, but the doing was really just a lot of small-scale dying. It's not something that I'm proud of because really I would never have moved beyond my opiate usage without repeated immense doses of LSD. Fighting fire with fire, I suppose. Nevertheless, it's behind me in some sense or another.

Experience *can* be lonely (in terms of the little that I have) but it's better than identifying with hateful obscurity. Company is... overrated, to understate it.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Humanicide on August 15, 2013, 11:10:19 AM
even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.

Sorry? What? Where has this idea come from? There is the male gender, there is the female gender and then there is dysfunction. Now dysfunction can be quite colourful and variable sure, but that doesnt mean gender is multi-faceted, it means mental illness is.

Then explain what happens when a person is born with both sets of genitalia. There are people out there who biologically have body parts from both sexes. Explaining that all away as merely 'mental illness' is short sighted and calls into question your knowledge on the subject.

On the thread topic - why is anyone surprised at this man? Men will be men - the dumb ones will do or say anything to get them laid.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 11:14:42 AM
even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.

Sorry? What? Where has this idea come from? There is the male gender, there is the female gender and then there is dysfunction. Now dysfunction can be quite colourful and variable sure, but that doesnt mean gender is multi-faceted, it means mental illness is.

Then explain what happens when a person is born with both sets of genitalia. There are people out there who biologically have body parts from both sexes. Explaining that all away as merely 'mental illness' is short sighted and calls into question your knowledge on the subject.

On the thread topic - why is anyone surprised at this man? Men will be men - the dumb ones will do or say anything to get them laid.

Should we make concessions to those people born with both sets of genitalia? Why aren't they considered mutated freaks who should be removed from the gene pool?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 11:15:08 AM
Experience *can* be lonely (in terms of the little that I have) but it's better than identifying with hateful obscurity. Company is... overrated, to understate it.


Well, clearly (to me, anyway) you are someone who is going paces.
LSD was the catalyst that got me going, and took me far.
The trick is knowing when you've reached its terminus, and getting off that bus.
It's a vivid glimpse of the unknowable, but only a glimpse.
The real deal is done stone-cold sober.

Company is beguiling, for sure, but so is death-by-vacuum.
I generally get more mileage from raccoons than I do from humans.
It is good that we speak, like this.
The best things are the rarest.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 11:17:19 AM
People with two sets of gear are an extreme rarity, and clearly a special case.
They have only the responsibility not to flash those two sets around in public.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 11:23:51 AM
Experience *can* be lonely (in terms of the little that I have) but it's better than identifying with hateful obscurity. Company is... overrated, to understate it.


Well, clearly (to me, anyway) you are someone who is going paces.
LSD was the catalyst that got me going, and took me far.
The trick is knowing when you've reached its terminus, and getting off that bus.
It's a vivid glimpse of the unknowable, but only a glimpse.
The real deal is done stone-cold sober.

Company is beguiling, for sure, but so is death-by-vacuum.
I generally get more mileage from raccoons than I do from humans.
It is good that we speak, like this.
The best things are the rarest.

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm one of those people who will more willingly drive the bus off the cliff for fear that they are living through the movie "Speed" rather than get off.

I actually do know what you are saying relating to raccoons though. Watching a spider build her web taught me more about how my brain works than 20 years of schooling and another several years of self-inflicted study.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 15, 2013, 12:11:21 PM
even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.

Sorry? What? Where has this idea come from? There is the male gender, there is the female gender and then there is dysfunction. Now dysfunction can be quite colourful and variable sure, but that doesnt mean gender is multi-faceted, it means mental illness is.

Then explain what happens when a person is born with both sets of genitalia. There are people out there who biologically have body parts from both sexes. Explaining that all away as merely 'mental illness' is short sighted and calls into question your knowledge on the subject.

Biological hermaphrodites have nothing to do with the topic of gender identities, they remain something for both sides to point at though. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, and with ambiguous genitalia you are still easily able to type and correct these children before they develop beyond infancy. Most people born with ambiguous genitalia never knew they had them and certainly do not become men-who-think-they-are-women.

Basically, what you are talking about is a developmental (embryological) disorder, a strictly physical `illness` with no known correlation to gender identity issues (what I am calling mental illness). It shows how much the dialogue about these has been perverted in popular culture that I am faced with this response on a nazihate death metal forum.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 12:27:08 PM
even then we have to admit that gender is multi-faceted and not some binary thing.

Sorry? What? Where has this idea come from? There is the male gender, there is the female gender and then there is dysfunction. Now dysfunction can be quite colourful and variable sure, but that doesnt mean gender is multi-faceted, it means mental illness is.

Then explain what happens when a person is born with both sets of genitalia. There are people out there who biologically have body parts from both sexes. Explaining that all away as merely 'mental illness' is short sighted and calls into question your knowledge on the subject.

Biological hermaphrodites have nothing to do with the topic of gender identities, they remain something for both sides to point at though. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, and with ambiguous genitalia you are still easily able to type and correct these children before they develop beyond infancy. Most people born with ambiguous genitalia never knew they had them and certainly do not become men-who-think-they-are-women.

Basically, what you are talking about is a developmental (embryological) disorder, a strictly physical `illness` with no known correlation to gender identity issues (what I am calling mental illness). It shows how much the dialogue about these has been perverted in popular culture that I am faced with this response on a nazihate death metal forum.

Maybe you should define where you stand in relation to "mental illness". Is it curable? Is it desirable? Is it undesirable? Is it genetically worthy? Is it important or useful?

I'm actually trying to encourage you to take a bold leap here. Feel free to refrain. I'm a dangerous enabler: So my friends say.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 15, 2013, 02:24:11 PM
I am not entirely certain what you mean. Counselling may benefit a lot of these individuals. It is certainly not desirable or useful, why is this even being asked? Trannies are a vanishingly tiny percentage of the population, if you are pointing towards some sort of adaptational explanation (or asking me to elaborate on one, if I hold it), this is both impossible and irrelevant. I also dont understand what `genetically worthy` means here. These are not issues reducible to genes, though genetics plays a role in making one prone to such problems.

Over half of all transsexuals have some other diagnosed mental illness. Shitlibs say this is because of the discrimination and bullying they experience throughout their lives. Which is itself insane.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 15, 2013, 06:47:21 PM
You contradict yourself; either an issue like mental illness is genetically imposed on the individual or it isn't. If it is genetically imposed, then it is relevant to question whether we should make concessions to the individual or if it is more worthwhile to remove them from the gene pool. I'm talking in extremes here, I realize, and if you won't come down on one side or the other, that's fine, just say that you don't have anything to really say about.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 06:59:13 PM
You're looking for hypothetical proofs in hypothetical situations.
These are words floating on a screen.
The only possible inputs are the various views of individuals.
And I've learned, through online interactions, that so-called contradictions are often nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: suðrheim on August 15, 2013, 07:08:45 PM
Male feminism is an antithesis of male self awareness.

These people seek ways to justify their fear of manliness, or fear of their own empowering masculinity. That, plus drugs = Hugo Schwyer cashing in on feminist being so goddamn naive that you only need the correct "open sesame"words and their legs open with glee.

That's what happens when you are a creature of ideology instead of a creature of nature.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 15, 2013, 07:32:23 PM
You contradict yourself; either an issue like mental illness is genetically imposed on the individual or it isn't.

This is false, certain genes predispose to mental illness; not all people with the right genes for it will develop mental illness. In fact, this is the trend for most things, even outside illness. Consider homosexuality, definite genetic correlation but no `gay gene` or even genes. Beyond this, the issue is not simple even with definite genes, as it isnt as cut and dry as X problem gene out, problem fixed. Creative genius and schizophrenia correlate and schizophrenia has a definite genetic element. Would you `fix` one at the expense of the other?

Eugenics should not be about some kind of genetic sanitation, but expression of positive traits. In any case, transsexuals select against themselves. If you want an answer about what I think these issues develop from, it is a combination of genes, environment and social input. Those predisposed experience some events and then are either validated or denied by those around them.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Humanicide on August 15, 2013, 07:44:58 PM

Biological hermaphrodites have nothing to do with the topic of gender identities, they remain something for both sides to point at though. 

What? Of course they do. There have been documented cases of people who are changed from one sex to the other early on and then experience identity crises later on in their life; sometimes due to finding out that they were born with both genitalia, and other times due to something having to do with their psyche (they have thoughts or dreams of being the opposite sex). I agree that it is best to correct infants born with both sets of genitalia, but we must take into account what may happen to them after the fact.

In parts of the world where surgeries to fix the genitalia problem are either too expensive or non-existent, those children live their lives with both sets. That's another thing to think about.

If I had a child born with both, I'd make sure to have that taken care of; whether boy or girl. I don't really prescribe to the idea of a "third gender" so much, but there are definite outliers among the genders. Fortunately the surgery exists in our part of the world, so it's possible for people to get it corrected. 

Over half of all transsexuals have some other diagnosed mental illness. Shitlibs say this is because of the discrimination and bullying they experience throughout their lives. Which is itself insane.

Regarding the first sentence, are you sure it's that much? I know many have mental problems but over half? To the second sentence, it's true that bullying/discrimination against trans people exists, but not nearly to the degree that dumbass libs say so. The bullying is not something that should be encouraged, but as usual the liberal tendency to force people to accept the victim without reason breeds resentment. Shitheads.

nazihate death metal forum.

http://www.deathmetal.org/forum/index.php/topic,3036.msg23425.html#msg23425
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 15, 2013, 09:17:12 PM

Biological hermaphrodites have nothing to do with the topic of gender identities, they remain something for both sides to point at though. 

What? Of course they do. There have been documented cases of people who are changed from one sex to the other early on and then experience identity crises later on in their life; sometimes due to finding out that they were born with both genitalia, and other times due to something having to do with their psyche (they have thoughts or dreams of being the opposite sex). I agree that it is best to correct infants born with both sets of genitalia, but we must take into account what may happen to them after the fact.

These are seperate issues. There is no correlation between gender dysmorphia and ambiguous genitalia. There was one major case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) of a young boy who was castrated due to an error and it was thereafter decided by a psychologist eager to push social gender identity theories that the change should go all the way and he be raised as a girl. Naturally, this was not accepted by the individual, as he was male. I am not aware of other cases. Biological sex is more than genitalia, and to get something like this wrong would be a major error. Puberty would also make the issue rather clear cut. Still, I admit the possibility that this could have happened a couple more times.

(Male and female genitalia develop from the same embryological structures, the clitoris is equivalent to the penis, the labia to the scrotum etc. Strictly speaking, you cant be born with both sets, though it can certainly look like it)

Quote
Regarding the first sentence, are you sure it's that much? I know many have mental problems but over half?

In one study, 44% of transsexuals admitted to attempting suicide. Roughly a fourth have substance abuse problems. The incidence of hiv is four times the general population (a good marker for risky sexual behaviour and drug use, itself correlated with mental illness).

Of 97 patients who came to the Endocrine Division for hormones and other treatments related to gender identity disorder between January 1998 and February 2010, 44.3 percent had significant mental health histories. Twenty percent had self-mutilated, and 9.3 percent had attempted suicide at least once. About 37 percent were taking psychiatric medication...

Shit like this is what makes me angry about the shitlib approach. The problem is discrimination / people not being aware enough to them. One solution is for these people to surgically mutilate themselves so they can feel happy, with predictable results: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

Unfortunately at the moment I am not able to provide you with a validation of over half, but I hope the above is convincing enough. If it isnt I will try and find my source and edit it in. The best source though, is just talking to trannies. Trannies and fags always have issues.

Quote
To the second sentence, it's true that bullying/discrimination against trans people exists, but not nearly to the degree that dumbass libs say so. The bullying is not something that should be encouraged, but as usual the liberal tendency to force people to accept the victim without reason breeds resentment. Shitheads.

You know I dont really have anything against anyone. I dont think anyone on this forum does. We are probably all people with a high openness to experience who would tend to treat individuals nonjudgmentally at the outset. Despite that, I have reversed my opinion on bullying. I think it is a great social immune system of sorts. I dont think bullying should be encouraged, but I wouldnt discourage it, thats for sure.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 15, 2013, 09:38:39 PM
Ha. That's a great observation. I am all for bullying. Having eaten a shitload of it, I am tougher than tough now.
I was watching a YouTube video about sniper training, earlier, and heard the advice of one who knows as:
"You have to view the enemy like: 'How DARE you fuck with me!'"
I've had that attitude since I was about 12.
Never, ever, give in to intimidation.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Phoenix on August 16, 2013, 08:38:18 AM
Ha. That's a great observation. I am all for bullying. Having eaten a shitload of it, I am tougher than tough now.
I was watching a YouTube video about sniper training, earlier, and heard the advice of one who knows as:
"You have to view the enemy like: 'How DARE you fuck with me!'"
I've had that attitude since I was about 12.
Never, ever, give in to intimidation.

What an epitome of hyper-masculinity. Clings so hard to total power that he utterly dreads to lose it, begetting a self-fulfilling prophecy. No sense of peace, and in corollary, no conception of true fire; the most passionate dispassion requires one to take a step back, not to be flattened by uncompromising emotion.

Mental illness could well be described in this context, as holding the conviction that it is the individual's right to offend people publicly, and that any offense taken by the majority is offensive to the individual.
For some unfathomable reason, the leftist believes that only individuals should have their offense recognized, while if the majority registers offense, then it is suddenly not offense at all, but bigotry.

Bigotry or discrimination is something in action, something quite manifest, recognized, felt. Were it to cease then obviously offense towards it would also cease. Shut the fuck up with your god damn word twisting. The sad thing is the words are twisted in your own brain.


I am not aware of other cases.

Might want to fact-check.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 16, 2013, 09:07:29 AM
It isnt hypermasculinity, just masculinity. Where does this narrative of insecurity come from?
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Wild on August 16, 2013, 09:21:24 AM
Some people are so far gone that even normality appears dangerous.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: lost_wanderer on August 16, 2013, 09:34:46 AM


Mental illness could well be described in this context, as holding the conviction that it is the individual's right to offend people publicly, and that any offense taken by the majority is offensive to the individual.
For some unfathomable reason, the leftist believes that only individuals should have their offense recognized, while if the majority registers offense, then it is suddenly not offense at all, but bigotry.

Bigotry or discrimination is something in action, something quite manifest, recognized, felt. Were it to cease then obviously offense towards it would also cease. Shut the fuck up with your god damn word twisting. The sad thing is the words are twisted in your own brain.


I am not aware of other cases.

Might want to fact-check.

To a sensitive or a self righteous person, everything can be perceive as discrimination or bigotry. May as well just commit mass suicide in order not to offend them.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 16, 2013, 09:48:53 AM
This conversation has devolved into a Freudian minefield. Abandon ship. Women and children first, gays and trannies last.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 09:55:40 AM
No big surprises here. Transcix has finally come clean with his (her) effeminate, holier-than-thou, liberalist feminism, lashing out in catty spite. A stance that was clear to me from day one. Hooray.
He can depart forthwith, his goose being cooked.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: Humanicide on August 16, 2013, 10:18:59 AM
Ha. That's a great observation. I am all for bullying. Having eaten a shitload of it, I am tougher than tough now.
I was watching a YouTube video about sniper training, earlier, and heard the advice of one who knows as:
"You have to view the enemy like: 'How DARE you fuck with me!'"
I've had that attitude since I was about 12.
Never, ever, give in to intimidation.

What an epitome of hyper-masculinity. Clings so hard to total power that he utterly dreads to lose it, begetting a self-fulfilling prophecy. No sense of peace, and in corollary, no conception of true fire; the most passionate dispassion requires one to take a step back, not to be flattened by uncompromising emotion.


And do what? Become someone who analyzes everything? Not all events in life allow for retrospection. The bully isn't going to wait while you reflect on the situation and not everyone talks things out. Grow some cajones and stand up for yourself. You sound like one of those wieners who went and tattled on the teacher all the time. Come on man, I've seen you post insightful shit, I know you're not this stupid.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 10:35:47 AM
Wrong. He really is that stupid. It amazes me that nobody else seemed able to see it.
He is a perfect example of one who masturbates with his brain to the point of becoming completely insane, without ever once being able to step back and self-evaluate.
Let this be a cautionary tale for any others who shun reality for the fantasy moonscape of the overactive mind.

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 16, 2013, 12:45:19 PM
There is a cautionary tale here alright, even with 100% disagreement with Transcix I dont think anyone here would ban him (ignoring certain history for a second, which preceded your arrival). I dont know why you have admin powers but a personality like you should not have them.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 01:07:28 PM
Now, now...
You've been doing so well, and contributing so much.
Why spoil it now, on account of the-one-who-vanishes?

Besides, I am interested in only one thing here: the thing I was tasked to do...
To round up a bunch of undisciplined minds, and apply to those minds a little discipline.
If those minds were better able to discipline themselves, I would be redundant.
And few things would give me more pleasure than to see this place in no further need of anybody to order it.
Most users, here, are well able to control themselves.
It is, and always was, only a very few that wreck it, with their out-of-control egos.

As the site-owner explained it to me:
"They need reminding that this is their place. And that shitting on it is not in their own interests".

Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 02:11:25 PM
There is a cautionary tale here alright, even with 100% disagreement with Transcix I dont think anyone here would ban him (ignoring certain history for a second, which preceded your arrival). I dont know why you have admin powers but a personality like you should not have them.


You know, I pondered this, for a while, before I understood what it was.
You don't think anyone here would ban Transcix? I wondered why you would think that.
Suddenly I realized why...

If you were an admin, which you aren't, you would be able to see that there would be likely consequences to publicly insulting an admin, accusing him of ridiculous personality traits, and swearing at him. After all, an admin can effortlessly click on the big, red BAN button. This is called Reality. It involves Consequences. Do this, you get that. Do that, you get this.
It's a concept that only a realist would intuitively understand, which is probably why you don't.
Anyway, I explained the rules to Transcix, and others, including you, very patiently, over some considerable time, prior to enacting consequences.
But as you can probably see, and agree with, my forbearance is usually a complete waste of energy.
The only thing that seems to get the message across is an actual ban.
And, for a realist, it's a case of 'whatever works'.

The site-owner knows me to be a realist, comfortable with consequentialism.
Which explains rather well, why I am an admin.
I trust your query is answered.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: dead last on August 16, 2013, 02:55:22 PM
If I were an admin, I would draw usernames out of a hat every week and ban one at random so everyone would feel more priviliged to participate here.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 03:08:22 PM
Quite apart from the humorous irony in that statement, I consider it to be very insightful.
Your contribution is gratefully acknowledged :)
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: NHA on August 16, 2013, 03:09:45 PM
I have mixed feelings about this Hugo Schwyzer guy. Yea he seems pretty pathetic, but really, he was just manipulating a bunch of morons for his own profit.

I get the impression the site he wrote for (jezebel.com) probably fuels more misogyny than it deters.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 16, 2013, 03:15:25 PM
crow I will leave it with this: You have constructed a belief of my thoughts and motivations without basis, as before. Your response is to say I dont understand this, or that, and you have expressed surprise when I have lived up to expectations of some sort. Why do you think I dont understand authority? I would reverse that claim; you dont seem to understand nuance, which is strange as you must know that authority is not simply a black and white category. To denigrate a king is different from denigrating the moderator of a message board with few members and a shared interest. An interest which you do not share, nor have any intention of doing, but that isnt too important as long as you appreciate it. Your approach is that of a prison warden instead of an elder brother. It has a stifling effect. Your mission will never be complete.

A demonstration of magnanimity would go much farther. This is the reason I do not think you should have admin powers, you are too much of a fringe personality and too caught up in this mission of sanitation. I am not saying there is a personal element here, but there is an outsider element to it. I dont have anything against you, regardless of what you think, and we probably share a lot more (in views at least) than you realize but I cant stay silent at actions I perceive to be against the ethos of this board, which I value.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 03:27:21 PM
Great comment, and honest.
True, I have nothing in common with anything deathmetal, and never will.
But I have a great deal in common with what deathmetal is perceived (by me) to be about.
I just cut out the deathmetal and get to the chase.

I can do nothing about anybody's perception of myself, or any admin, as posing a threat, or rendering the atmosphere stifling. I do my best to forget my delegated authority in this place, and often I actually do forget.
But my judgement is clearly of value to somebody, or I wouldn't be here at all.
And by the personal messages I receive, my life-views are valuable to many, especially the lurkers who would rather not tangle with the rest of you acerbic heavyweights.

I actually have a soft spot for you, and other (problem-)posters.
But there is a line I draw, and must draw, between allowing anybody to say almost anything, and allowing anybody to say almost anything about me.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: trystero on August 16, 2013, 05:34:39 PM
Like I said, I have nothing against you and I consider you a valuable poster. Let there be no ambiguity about that. Not just on this website but on Amerika and even Bruce Charlton`s blog of all places.
Title: Re: Representation of male feminsm
Post by: crow on August 16, 2013, 05:39:14 PM
Generous. Thank you. A truce is established.