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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: death metal black metal on December 05, 2013, 05:36:56 AM

Title: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: death metal black metal on December 05, 2013, 05:36:56 AM
Satan: a remarkable figure whose adherents usually don't believe in him, with some exceptions (http://www.o9a.org/).

Blake and Milton saw for him a role in the mythology of heaven, much like Judas Iscariot (or from earlier Jewish traditions, the scapegoat, or ritual sacrifice designed to take guilt away from the population and kill its host, driving it into the spirit realm).

Some see Satan as an analogy for hubris, but this only works if you see God as an "order," or divine mathematics and celestial balance, and thus Satan as the individualistic withdrawal from the order of reality into the order of the Self, at which point he has become a delusional figure. If sin is error, Satan is the justification for sin (denial of reality).

Or perhaps he is the scapegoat to which we assign our fears, and needs no more existence than that. Or do our fears invoke him, and make him incarnate?

Even Slayer do not praise Satan so much as, much as in "War Pigs," warn of the mythological underpinnings to our bad choices here in regular old physical reality.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 05, 2013, 07:49:09 AM
Maybe Satan is All The Above.

Or maybe He is You and I.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 05, 2013, 11:03:34 AM
Satan is doubt, made real.

Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Eleison on December 05, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
Blake and Milton saw for him a role in the mythology of heaven, much like Judas Iscariot (or from earlier Jewish traditions, the scapegoat, or ritual sacrifice designed to take guilt away from the population and kill its host, driving it into the spirit realm).

Some see Satan as an analogy for hubris, but this only works if you see God as an "order," or divine mathematics and celestial balance, and thus Satan as the individualistic withdrawal from the order of reality into the order of the Self, at which point he has become a delusional figure. If sin is error, Satan is the justification for sin (denial of reality).

These are the two most common esoteric interpretations of Satan.  However the latter is superior as it transcends the anthropomorphic (exoteric) interpretation of God.  In this case Satan is something we all carry within ourselves (Ego) rather than an external figure.  It is only this interpretation that can be called truly metaphysical.  Obviously both points of view go beyond that of the majority of adherents of Abrahamic faiths, this does not invalidate them or the more common understanding of these religions.  The real crisis of the monotheistic traditions, and more specifically Western Christianity (Catholic, Protestant), is that they no longer possess a valid esoteric tradition and thus live on as a husk without a kernel so to speak.  This can be clearly witnessed by their total abandonment of traditional forms in architecture, art and the liturgy, as well as their adoption of the modernist counterfeits of these and modernist modes of thought.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 05, 2013, 07:28:00 PM
You think that Evil doesn't exist without egotistical delusion?
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 06, 2013, 11:06:47 AM
That's a fair question, and again, one of those rather too obvious ones that nobody ever asks.
Humans have a unique ability to create evil out of thin air.
It is important to know this, if one is ever going to resist the urge to do this, oneself.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 06, 2013, 07:47:12 PM
The real trick is to define Evil.

In my experience, Evil does not benefit any one. Evil is any anti-human act.

Most people would love to think that something like this doesn't exist. That's cute.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 06, 2013, 07:56:28 PM
When you stop seeing everything only in terms of humans, you'll see that evil simply doesn't apply to anything else but humans.
Stop focusing solely on humans, and life becomes something extraordinary.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 06, 2013, 08:43:34 PM
Well, we ARE humans, After All.

I can go into a brief bit of personal theology here. Tune out if not interested.

"EVIL" is separation.

"GOOD" is joining together.

This does not relate specifically to humans. It happens universally. Primitive humans knew this. In the Christian Bible, we see Lucifer rejecting the authority of Jehovah (singularity, harmony, togetherness) and establishing a kingdom on The Earth (separation). I can provide more references and examples on request.

In modern scientific cosmology, we see that there is a distinct imbalance between "positive" and "negative" energy. Because our universe contains more "positive" energy (which is named arbitrarily [or not]), physical matter is able to exist in a relatively stable state. Due to Entropy, we see a decay in this state. Turns out, "stability" is very relative too. True stability is stasis. No movement. No time. No energy. This is pure "GOOD".

The only reason we exist and interact with various "individual" elements of the universe, is because of "EVIL".

Satan provided us with the opportunity to become "individual" beings.

Jehovah provides us with the opportunity to "individuate".

Both are necessary.

Our (United States citizens [I am only acquainted with those]) current mass mindset is that of individuation. Clearly (to a detached observer [or, in my case, an occultist]) this is destructive to society (which is arbitrariliy valuable). At the same time, I cannot deny the fact of entropy; "we" (as in humanity and the rest of the universe at large) are moving toward a state of minimal motion/energy/time.

Thus I act as a Satanist in the theological and psychological sense. This hinges on the idiomatic interpretation of value: Separation is more interesting than individuation.

That tells you more about me as a human being than any other text ever will.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 06, 2013, 09:15:34 PM
It tells me you rely too much on your human mind.
This stasis you mention is actually nothing like the human mind renders it.
It is achieved after mind is shut down, and in this state, time no longer runs.
Past, present, future all become one eternal moment.
Nirvana.

Seriously: the secret is simple. You may be a human, but considering everything else in terms of a human, is the best way yet devised to ensure a human never really lives at all.



Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 06, 2013, 09:20:43 PM
You don't think the human mind is limited necessarily to temporal restraints?

I wouldn't argue the other way. Asking out of curiosity.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 06, 2013, 09:26:11 PM
I think it has very few - if any - limits. We are the ones that do the limiting, by the things we believe or don't believe.
It starts early. Conditioning, brainwashing, schooling, socialization, beliefs and wrong beliefs, stigmas and taboos...
I have successfully experienced freedom from all that, and returned to tell of it.
It is possible.

Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: hell on December 07, 2013, 06:57:48 PM
The real trick is to define Evil.

In my experience, Evil does not benefit any one. Evil is any anti-human act.

Most people would love to think that something like this doesn't exist. That's cute.

Satan - The Universal Enemy
Satan = Freedom (Satan =/= Lucifer).

what is, evil?
what teaching your mother and father?
your family, your church.
evil is only what is not for you.
everything bad is what hurts you.

but for those who sell guns, which is evil?
for those who steal eat for survive, that is evil?
to an alcoholic or drug addict who escapes from the infamous realities.
the police are to help me help you, or strike you, which is good or bad for them?

The Evil That men do!
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 08, 2013, 09:07:48 AM
I think it has very few - if any - limits. We are the ones that do the limiting, by the things we believe or don't believe.
It starts early. Conditioning, brainwashing, schooling, socialization, beliefs and wrong beliefs, stigmas and taboos...
I have successfully experienced freedom from all that, and returned to tell of it.
It is possible.

That, I believe.

The tricky thing is the fact that most everyone (where I'm from) has necessarily endured the conditioning and brainwashing.

How to break that conditioning? It must be destroyed violently, there is no gentle process. One must separate from the corrupt whole. So, one must be EVIL.

Not forever. The point is to synthesize the two evident opposites, good and evil. They are not even really opposite ends of a spectrum. They are more like spokes on a wheel.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 08, 2013, 09:14:23 AM
Maybe that's what it takes, for some, or even most. But it wasn't that way for me.
I was never evil. Sometimes violent, perhaps, but only in reaction to evil.
In my case, transitioning from know-nothing to nothing-to-know was a remarkably peaceful, benign process.
More like dropping stuff over a cliff and walking away from it.
I couldn't be evil if I tried :)
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Saif al-Malik on December 08, 2013, 05:22:19 PM
Satan, Iblees, is cognitive dissonance, jealousy, egotism, arrogance, narcissism, and sociopathy par excellence.  He knows that he is at the whim of a force which he tries to act against because he was too prideful in all of his knowledge and faith to give assistance to something greater than him; that which could benefit tremendously from his guidance and knowledge.  A good teacher or master will produce something greater than themselves.  Being a disembodied force which cannot deliver physical malice, Shaytan must use passive-aggressive delusions and lies that appeal to the parts of the psyche and self which must be subjugated.  He is called "Despair" because of his complete knowledge and knowing that his salvation is denied so far that he cannot submit to the ultimate authority in its hierarchy and sublime nature.  In turn, this would require knowing his station and accepting it ...

This response deserves a more complex and complete explanation, but this is what I have to offer.  It is no wonder that some of the architects of Communism, Anarchism, and extreme forms of Republicanism consider Satan to be a symbol.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 08, 2013, 08:59:12 PM
Awful lot of shit-talking Satan for a metal forum.

It didn't take me long to realize why God caused so many problems for people. It's because God is a different thing to everyone. The word is diluted to the point of ambiguity.

Looks like the same thing has happened to the glorious name of Our Horned Lord.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Wild on December 08, 2013, 09:20:55 PM
Quote
I believe in a horned devil, a personified Satan. In my opinion all the other forms of Satanism are bullshit. I hate that some people think up idiotic ways of making eternal peace in the world and dare to call it Satanism, like so many do. Satanism comes from religious Christianity, and there it shall stay. I'm a religious person and I will fight those who misuse His name. People are not supposed to believe in themselves and be individualists. They are supposed to OBEY, to be the SLAVES of religion.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 08, 2013, 09:27:59 PM
Quote
I believe in a horned devil, a personified Satan. In my opinion all the other forms of Satanism are bullshit. I hate that some people think up idiotic ways of making eternal peace in the world and dare to call it Satanism, like so many do. Satanism comes from religious Christianity, and there it shall stay. I'm a religious person and I will fight those who misuse His name. People are not supposed to believe in themselves and be individualists. They are supposed to OBEY, to be the SLAVES of religion.

I think the people who actually worship the devil of the Christian Bible are referred to as Luciferians and distinguish themselves from other types of Satanists (of which there are too many). O9A Satanism and various other occultist LHP religions are the only legitimate forms of actual Satan worship.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Wild on December 08, 2013, 09:41:15 PM
Expound on how a LHP person could literally believe in Satan the way being described. I know nothing about the occult and its terminology, but in my experience people who describe themselves as LHP are religious hipsters who define their belief as a metaphor and whatever is convenient for them. RHP seems to refer to real religion, which is the position advocated in the quote.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 08, 2013, 09:58:19 PM
O9A texts refer to an "a-causal continuum", which is a fancy name for the classic spiritual plane.

This plane is inhabited by "a-causal entities", which is a fancy term for gods and demons.

The purpose of the occult discipline is to cause intersections between the a-causal and (our) causal worlds. When this occurs, those entities that "exist" a-causally can actually manifest as a life form (in most specific cases, within the life form that is doing the occult work) in our causal realm. Satan is one of (possibly many) a-causal entities, and the work of a Satanist is to manifest the Satanic will in our causal reality.

Yes, that probably sounds far out, because O9A uses their own terminology to make sure that no confusion takes place when dealing with their specific brand of Satanism. However, Jung suggested more or less the same idea, except he called the a-causal entities "archetypes".

Contrary to Jung's recommendations, O9A suggests that the best (most effective, most assured) way to achieve this connection with the a-causal is to embark down the LHP, which can be thought of as any path that leads one intentionally into evil, chaos, malevolence, and all the other elements of Satanism, of one's own will.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Wild on December 08, 2013, 11:23:35 PM
Broadly, it's the "will" part that makes me skeptical. You still seem to be describing an individualist system wherein Satan "manifests" according to each person's mental state. It brings down Satan as a tool to be manipulated by a practitioner, rather than as a superior being.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: death metal black metal on December 09, 2013, 08:44:44 AM
Sort of like seeing Satan more as godhead and less than a god, and manipulable much like occultism, New Thought, etc. suggest.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 09, 2013, 08:55:44 AM
Broadly, it's the "will" part that makes me skeptical. You still seem to be describing an individualist system wherein Satan "manifests" according to each person's mental state. It brings down Satan as a tool to be manipulated by a practitioner, rather than as a superior being.

According to O9A and a handful of other occult texts, this is not the case. The individual makes himself a willing servant of the Satanic will. The individual's strength of will is what sends him down the LHP in the first place, but individual choice and preference have little to do with what comes next. This is why O9A specifically insists on committing atrocities against other humans; it goes against what an individual would want, for the sake of a greater cause. You'll find that even Crowley repeatedly warns (or encourages) LHP followers that, once begun, the path cannot be turned from, despite the follower's regrets or misgivings.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: indjaseemun on December 09, 2013, 09:21:02 AM
When you stop seeing everything only in terms of humans, you'll see that evil simply doesn't apply to anything else but humans.
Stop focusing solely on humans, and life becomes something extraordinary.

Do you mean evil can exist only on the actions of humans, or that even this kind of evil (perceived in the harmful actions of humans, say, f. example, shitting in someone's mouth, making him eat it, then torture the person before killing him) does not exist?

Quote from: dead last
You'll find that even Crowley repeatedly warns (or encourages) LHP followers that, once begun, the path cannot be turned from, despite the follower's regrets or misgivings.

Can you point me to where this is said, preferably making the quotations available?
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 09, 2013, 09:57:28 AM
Do you mean evil can exist only on the actions of humans, or that even this kind of evil (perceived in the harmful actions of humans, say, f. example, shitting in someone's mouth, making him eat it, then torture the person before killing him) does not exist?


Remove humans, and evil is removed. Nothing else exhibits evil.
Since we are humans, how does this stunning revelation benefit us?
Become inhuman in our interaction with the whole, as in crow-like, and evil can no longer manifest.
Remove that human flaw from the state of being human, by understanding the flaw for what it is.
This is why religion is both vital, and why it so often defeats itself.
Abstraction is the root of evil.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 09, 2013, 11:48:58 AM

Quote from: dead last
You'll find that even Crowley repeatedly warns (or encourages) LHP followers that, once begun, the path cannot be turned from, despite the follower's regrets or misgivings.

Can you point me to where this is said, preferably making the quotations available?

This is from Crowley's Book of Lies (version with O.T.O. commentary from 1962):

(part 18 on page 36)

"O thou that settest out on The Path, false is the Phantom that thou seekest. When thou hast it thou shalt know all bitterness, thy teeth fixed in the Sodom-Apple.

Thus hast thou been lured along That Path, whose terror else had driven thee far away.

O thou that stridest upon the middle of The Path, no phantoms mock thee. For the stride's sake thou stridest.

Thus art thou lured along That Path, whose fascination else had driven thee far away.

O thou that drawest toward the End of The Path, effort is no more. Faster and faster dost thou fall; thy weariness is changed in Ineffable Rest.

For there is no Thou upon That Path: thou hast become The Way."

Later in part 32 (page 74) he says the same thing, but without the context of LHP. This observation applies more universally.

"Consciousness is a symptom of disease.

All that moves well moves without will.

All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

Practice a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand times, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.

Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground."

This to say that once an individual begins down his fated path, he will eventually become that which he practices. In O9A terms, this is when the a-causal is merged with and given presence in the causal and, despite the individual's will (or what Crowley calls "Thou"), the Act practices itself through the individual, rather than the individual practicing the Act.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 09, 2013, 12:09:09 PM
You see the paradox? This is inherent in all truth. If you can see it, you're on your path.
The same rules apply to everything: good, bad, righteous and evil.
When you remove yourself from the equation, things really start to happen.

Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 09, 2013, 12:21:56 PM
You cannot expect someone to follow their fated path like an automaton. The will to follow comes first, then the following of the path takes place. At last, there is no difference between the path you are following and what you are. Please don't think me pedantic for explaining this to you; we are probably explaining the same thing to one another at this point.

I don't know how someone can be expected to at-will "remove yourself from the equation" unless you are there to be removed in the first place. Actions need to be undertaken to initiate the change. That is the only practical reason that an individual has a will.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: lost_wanderer on December 09, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
god is silence

satan is noise.

that's why all the best bands are in league with satan :)
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Saif al-Malik on December 09, 2013, 05:32:08 PM
Prometheus is a different figures entirely from a different cultural universe, but many combine him into one personage with Satan and Lucifer.  Prometheus is a force for and of creativity, development, courage, wisdom, defiance, knowledge ... among many more attributes of which some overlap with Lucifer and with Satan.  In my understanding, Prometheus is different because of his intention and ultimate altruistic outlook.  It is an altruism that has a heroic character and demands the best.

The difficulty here is that Judaism did not exist in a vacuum and even though their sages--especially in the Talmudic era--did a lot to purge a lot from the religion that they saw as "innovations" or "external influences", such ideas persist into the modern era in both Judaism and Christianity.  Entire books have been written on the subject of Satan, Lucifer, or Prometheus with differing worldviews and ideologies within.  Some of them are well-written and in a scientific context, others are not.  Tendencies which many of us may not want to admit to may very well be as much part of our heritage as much as the most lofty of traits, and also not easily separable.

Richard Dawkins, Howard Bloom, and others have written brilliant works on this.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: trystero on December 09, 2013, 06:12:21 PM
Truly this confusion compounds itself. Satan is the whisperer, the reject, the liberal, powerless except for knowledge and for humanity. Strength, darkness, silence, cacophony, authority, hell, heaven all come from the Lord, for all creation comes from him and evil is a privation thereof. I see my favourite Euronymous quote in this thread, yet the Christianity that he despised is modern Christianity which is a front for liberalism (as far as people are concerned). Ironically his position was closer to genuine faith.

What is Satan? More importantly what is he not? Not the dark half that is for sure, but that is what he is often considered. The rebellion of Satan is one of petulance and ego, not will, for will is a godly thing. The horned Lord is not Satan, though I am sure he would love to be considered as such!
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 10, 2013, 08:24:09 AM
Once again, people will use whatever words they feel are appropriate to express whatever they think is important to be expressed.

Do yourself a favor and go look back to where the word Satan came from. You might be surprised.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Vigilance on December 10, 2013, 08:54:09 AM
Truly this confusion compounds itself. Satan is the whisperer, the reject, the liberal, powerless except for knowledge and for humanity. Strength, darkness, silence, cacophony, authority, hell, heaven all come from the Lord, for all creation comes from him and evil is a privation thereof. I see my favourite Euronymous quote in this thread, yet the Christianity that he despised is modern Christianity which is a front for liberalism (as far as people are concerned). Ironically his position was closer to genuine faith.

What is Satan? More importantly what is he not? Not the dark half that is for sure, but that is what he is often considered. The rebellion of Satan is one of petulance and ego, not will, for will is a godly thing. The horned Lord is not Satan, though I am sure he would love to be considered as such!

I think this is too convoluted to be an accurate depiction.

As Shiva dances, he creates. As he creates, so he destroys. Life exists between Venus and Mars.

I believe a more accurate picture of Satan is found in the dialectic between Satan and Christ which gives us knowledge of God.

Simple no?
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 10, 2013, 07:05:38 PM
Quote
I believe a more accurate picture of Satan is found in the dialectic between Satan and Christ which gives us knowledge of God.

Now, that's *more* like it. It is does not have to be super complicated.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 10, 2013, 07:16:19 PM
In reality, nothing ever really is.

Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 10, 2013, 07:18:21 PM
Long day of work, mind numbed, absorption threshold reached. Forgive the sloppy grammar, if you can find it in your heart.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 10, 2013, 07:44:29 PM
I spent a moment wondering what you might have been talking about re: grammar.
Then I saw the errant 'is'. Then I saw my italicized 'is'.
That's when I realized you thought that I thought that you thought...
Etc.
That's what I was referring to by unnecessary complication.
It had nothing to do with grammar, or nitpicking.
It was, incredibly, a simple observation about reality.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: dead last on December 10, 2013, 08:11:23 PM
Right, I see. What a confusing mess, text. In this case you'll have to excuse my generally dulled comprehension of what the hell is going on around me.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Vigilance on December 11, 2013, 07:26:41 AM
Not your thinking, but your being, is distinctiveness. Therefore not after difference, as ye think it, must ye strive; but after your own being. At bottom, therefore, there is only one striving, namely, the striving after your own being. If ye had this striving ye would not need to know anything about the pleroma and its qualities, and yet would ye come to your right goal by virtue of your own being. Since, however, thought estrangeth from being, that knowledge must I teach you wherewith ye may be able to hold your thought in leash.

-Jung
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: crow on December 11, 2013, 11:13:25 AM
Jung said that? Good for him. He seems to have had a clue.
Title: Re: Who/What is Satan?
Post by: Vigilance on December 11, 2013, 12:04:28 PM
Verily.