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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: crow on February 13, 2014, 12:35:13 PM

Title: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 13, 2014, 12:35:13 PM
Sanity is:
Discovering how to fit yourself into reality.
As opposed to demanding reality fit itself into you.

Be unusual.
Be sane.
The benefits far outweigh the discomfort.

Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: lost_wanderer on February 13, 2014, 02:19:53 PM
Insanity is: http://rainworld.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/zentai-party.jpg


Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 13, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
Hmmm. Those characters bear a striking resemblance to the local populace, hereabouts.
Yes. Insane is the word that most readily springs to mind.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Tree on February 13, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
I like your definition, crow. Most of the human activities that I witness are insane. In my experience, people are generally too self-absorbed, disconnected, scared, brainwashed, etc. to step away from themselves and realize or change their ridiculous behaviors.

edit: To most people, habit, comfort, and normalcy are sacred, and everything else is terrifying and foreign. Sometimes it is important to break habits just for the sake of breaking them. Then, from the outside, judge whether the behavior is insane or not.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: scourge on February 13, 2014, 08:24:55 PM
Sounds like usual solipsism and narcissism of modern progress.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 14, 2014, 10:32:54 AM
It's very odd that people call this 'progress'.
I've never understood the term 'progressive', either.
We start out new and open, then by degrees, regress towards the old and closed-up.
Every civilization regresses towards its own death, while referring to this activity as 'progress'.

Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: grecocastro on February 14, 2014, 10:46:42 AM
The perception of reality, when morality is perception of human's rules.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 14, 2014, 10:55:50 AM
What happened to the Taoism Crow? Does the master not sit at rest, while all other things are in motion, for she is within the Tao?

Try to conform and you will become a non-comformance. If you want to become straight, let yourself be crooked. If you want to be realistic. Let yourself become unrealistic.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 14, 2014, 11:16:29 AM
Taoism is a fine tool, from which to further develop.
Not an end in itself, but a stable launchpad, aiming at the stars.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 14, 2014, 12:30:52 PM
I suppose I am alone enjoying my time down here. :)
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 14, 2014, 12:39:34 PM
The stars are here, too.
No distance is involved, neither up nor down.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 14, 2014, 12:47:52 PM
What I meant is that I don't have goals, I'm here for the richness of experience. Not to be confused with hedonism.

That is what people mean when they talk about stars right?
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 14, 2014, 01:01:07 PM
I've given up imagining I have any idea WTF people are talking about when they talk about anything.

Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: NHA on February 14, 2014, 04:03:33 PM
Insanity is: http://rainworld.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/zentai-party.jpg

Ahaha, from the makers of Dekotora, who else?

(http://images.fotocommunity.com/photos/people/fashion-glamour/zentai-diamond-d1f60ce2-886f-42f5-bc04-2b96c3ef9f65.jpg)

Honestly, the dehumanizing aspect makes it kinda hot.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 18, 2014, 10:54:20 AM
Sanity is:
Discovering how to fit yourself into reality.
As opposed to demanding reality fit itself into you.

...or you can bend the arc of reality in your direction.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 18, 2014, 11:26:00 AM
...if you use enough drugs, yes, it can appear to you as if you can do that.
But reality isn't something humans can bend. The human bends itself, and calls that reality.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 18, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
...if you use enough drugs, yes, it can appear to you as if you can do that.
But reality isn't something humans can bend. The human bends itself, and calls that reality.

What is the entire project of civilization, if not the bending and shaping of reality to human Will?  Certainly, it takes a person of a truly extraordinary ability, vision and personal strength to accomplish, but it can be accomplished.  The heroic path is just very lonely, and littered with the bleached bones of the unworthy.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 18, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
The entire project of civilization is to gain a sense of being protected from what is perceived as a hostile reality.
As a result, reality itself does not change. People's perception of it does.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 18, 2014, 01:23:52 PM
The entire project of civilization is to gain a sense of being protected from what is perceived as a hostile reality.
As a result, reality itself does not change. People's perception of it does.

Folks like to talk about "reality," as if it were a concrete thing, fixed and unchanging, but I submit to you that reality is no thing at all, and is constantly in a state of flux.  It is there, waiting to be molded, to be shaped and formed by the right hands at the direction of the right mind.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Humanicide on February 18, 2014, 01:33:31 PM
Folks like to talk about "reality," as if it were a concrete thing, fixed and unchanging, but I submit to you that reality is nothing at all, and is constantly in a state of flux.  It is there to be molded, to be shaped and formed by the right hands at the direction of the right mind.

Oooh I like where this is going - hope you fellas don't mind if I chime in.

Dylar - the 'reality' you speak of; is your example not simply one 'reality' which humans can perceive? Crow seems to be speaking of a 'reality' beyond humans' scope.  Perhaps, another 'reality' exists - that of the cosmos and its happenings, or supernatural beings that dictate the direction of the universe, or maybe something entirely different. Of course, that begs the question - is THAT the ultimate, concrete 'reality'?

Also, another thought: is 'reality' fixed and unchanging? Or can it/does it change?
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 18, 2014, 01:40:35 PM
The entire project of civilization is to gain a sense of being protected from what is perceived as a hostile reality.
As a result, reality itself does not change. People's perception of it does.

The first part is social contract theory and a bit of projection.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 18, 2014, 01:57:05 PM
Folks like to talk about "reality," as if it were a concrete thing, fixed and unchanging, but I submit to you that reality is nothing at all, and is constantly in a state of flux.  It is there to be molded, to be shaped and formed by the right hands at the direction of the right mind.

Oooh I like where this is going - hope you fellas don't mind if I chime in.

Dylar - the 'reality' you speak of; is your example not simply one 'reality' which humans can perceive? Crow seems to be speaking of a 'reality' beyond humans' scope.  Perhaps, another 'reality' exists - that of the cosmos and its happenings, or supernatural beings that dictate the direction of the universe, or maybe something entirely different. Of course, that begs the question - is THAT the ultimate, concrete 'reality'?

Also, another thought: is 'reality' fixed and unchanging? Or can it/does it change?

You can take the fact that birds ARE dinosaurs to be evidence for either conclusion and that's the fun.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 18, 2014, 02:43:38 PM
The entire project of civilization is to gain a sense of being protected from what is perceived as a hostile reality.
As a result, reality itself does not change. People's perception of it does.

The first part is social contract theory and a bit of projection.

Not so. Simply observation. Co-operation solves a multitude of problems. Even imaginary ones.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 18, 2014, 03:03:25 PM
...It is there, waiting to be molded, to be shaped and formed by the right hands at the direction of the right mind.


Based upon that astonishing comment, I would have to observe that you have become insane.
That is exactly the way leftists think and operate.
As if everything exists for no other reason than for their exclusive use.
You are dead wrong, but an excellent nihilist, in the usually (mis)understood sense.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 19, 2014, 07:48:40 AM
The entire project of civilization is to gain a sense of being protected from what is perceived as a hostile reality.
As a result, reality itself does not change. People's perception of it does.

The first part is social contract theory and a bit of projection.

Not so. Simply observation. Co-operation solves a multitude of problems. Even imaginary ones.

Except that the trajectory, accomplishments, technology and social organization of real civilizations is determined by two large factors:
1) Energy flow
2) Dominant cultural narratives.

Rome developed things like steam engines and latin empires had wheels. The former never industrialized and the latter used wheels as children's toys. Why? It's a matter of narratives. The Romans inherited the Greek intellectual tradition which emphasized Man's subservience to Nature. You'll notice after Rome's fall, in the hot bed of culture and ideas, there gradually emerged the idea that man was lord over nature. An idea that caught on especially forcefully with the gradual discovery of the energy potential locked within fossils. Energy and stories.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 19, 2014, 08:10:20 AM
...It is there, waiting to be molded, to be shaped and formed by the right hands at the direction of the right mind.


Based upon that astonishing comment, I would have to observe that you have become insane.
That is exactly the way leftists think and operate.
As if everything exists for no other reason than for their exclusive use.
You are dead wrong, but an excellent nihilist, in the usually (mis)understood sense.

The great error of the Left grew from the (perfectly correct and reasonable) observation that the parameters of our daily realities are often largely a matter of norms of social practice, rather than anything more permanent.  This is not untrue; the mistake of the Left was to assume that, because some aspects of reality are socially constructed, all of reality is socially constructed.  The application of the observation about social construction to the entire concept of reality itself is, indeed, insane. 
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 19, 2014, 12:11:59 PM
Some aspects of reality are socially constructed?
Can you think of any examples?

It has become clear to me that the term 'reality' means something completely different to me, than it does to most others.
How to describe it?
The rock wall of a cave is reality. A neanderthal may paint graffiti all over it, later to be seen as 'art'.
Reality existed before what happened to it.
When the 'art' superimposed upon it fades and is gone, reality remains.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 24, 2014, 12:08:21 PM
Some aspects of reality are socially constructed?
Can you think of any examples?

The organizational and institutional realities of human societies are largely socially constructed.  They didn't fall from the sky in their present form, they evolved from social practice.  You can argue that they're mere ephemera, ghosts in the mind of the machine man, and, in a way, you'd be right.  Still, when you kick against the bonds of social practice, you'll find that they're hard as iron


Quote
The rock wall of a cave is reality. A neanderthal may paint graffiti all over it, later to be seen as 'art'.
Reality existed before what happened to it.
When the 'art' superimposed upon it fades and is gone, reality remains.

And yet, the walls of the cave are just as temporary.  What is a cave, if not a place where the rock has ceased to be a part of reality?
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 12:37:18 PM
You could answer both those questions by considering them long enough, without bias.
But since that is unlikely, here's some insight...

The trick is not to kick.
Any social practice is only as powerful as the sum of power given to it by the sum of those that do.

The cave remains reality, even as fallen rock, and the sand that replaces it, and the dust that replaces that.
Its form may have changed. But what it is endures.
Only when a cave is labeled 'cave' does this become unclear.

Thus man's decree of what things are changes. Not the things decreed.

Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 24, 2014, 01:32:26 PM
The trick is not to kick.

One is no less bound by chains untested as those whose strength has been ascertained through effort.  One might slip his bonds through cunning, another might break hers through strength, but for those who remain in chains, those bonds are no less real for being made from chains of custom, rather than links of steel

Quote
Any social practice is only as powerful as the sum of power given to it by the sum of those that do.

Aye, the kind of power that can make a desert, and call it "peace," or the kind that can level mountains and forests, and call it "commerce."  That's "real" enough.

Quote
The cave remains reality, even as fallen rock, and the sand that replaces it, and the dust that replaces that.
Its form may have changed. But what it is endures.

Sand is not a boulder, nor solid rock a cave. These may be just words, in one sense, but they correspond to real,. actual differences.  The form is  very often the substance of a thing.  Diamonds and charcoal.  Steam and snow.  A thing is always what it is, but may very often no longer be what it was, nor certainly what it may be.



Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Vigilance on February 24, 2014, 01:53:16 PM
There are mental models and then there are the things they describe. It is a mistaken too often made in literate civilizations, to mistake the model for the thing it describes. It is even more of a mistake, when they attempt to correct the error by asserting nihilism by suggesting we should abandon all mental models. Collective thought and action goes right out the door and the civilization collapses.

We need to be reminded that "cave" is not the thing it describes. We don't need to throw "cave" out because it is not the thing in itself.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 05:47:08 PM
TBH I've seriously begun to wonder about the assumed value 'civilization' actually has.
Personally, I could take it or leave it, even when it was still a going concern.
It doesn't have a particularly good track record, once you start to investigate.
Shortly after achieving its goal, which is really only safety and comfort, it starts eating itself from within.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: death metal black metal on February 24, 2014, 07:25:06 PM
I think civilization is great and, to paraphrase an Indian nationalist, the West should try it.

What we have instead is over-socialization, meaning people for whom individualism and its social counterpart Crowdism have become more important than reality or truth.

This happens when too many useless people hang about, their lives having been made comfortable by the work of others.
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Annihilation on February 26, 2014, 01:36:06 PM
...if you use enough drugs, yes, it can appear to you as if you can do that.
But reality isn't something humans can bend. The human bends itself, and calls that reality.

What is the entire project of civilization, if not the bending and shaping of reality to human Will?  Certainly, it takes a person of a truly extraordinary ability, vision and personal strength to accomplish, but it can be accomplished.  The heroic path is just very lonely, and littered with the bleached bones of the unworthy.

This is an interesting point. The heroes being who: Alexander...?
Title: Re: Sanity.
Post by: Dylar on February 26, 2014, 01:39:42 PM
Monsanto