100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: death metal black metal on February 24, 2014, 05:57:56 AM

Title: Further ruminations
Post by: death metal black metal on February 24, 2014, 05:57:56 AM
I have always focused on being correct.

As it turns out, that's not much of a resource -- in this world, you need popularity/money to get anything done.

Some are thus content writing small blogs, for a small fixed audience... but I see that as throwing the future into the past, not the past into the future as I intend to do.

Even with people such as Jon Wild and Mike Alexander contributing, it takes a good hour minimum daily to keep this site running and updated. Some days (as recently) I don't have the time.

If underground death metal fans had their shit together, they'd chip in on this site because it is correct. It is the way to defend metal and nurture it toward better ends.

But, as we have observed, when the fanbase is faithless, the good musicians go elsewhere. The same may eventually be true of writers.

We don't have the advantage of massive media connections or influential people who will stand up for us, with a few notable exceptions. We're doing the right thing, not the popular (fawning, pandering) thing.

We do however have a lot of stalkers. Once you step outside the easy-lazy transactional framework, the basement greebos and casual neckbeards show up. They waste as much time as they are given.

Many have over the years encouraged me to reverse the way this blog works: instead of blogging to put out information, put the information in a product and use the blog to support it, like everyone else.

If that happens, as far as I'm concerned, the blame lies with the community for not supporting a free and open resource. What got in the way was your own pretense and egomania.

As far as this forum goes, it has for years -- literally a decade -- been a liability that I have defended in the name of free speech and giving people a place to hang out. Instead the neckbeards (kvlt version) have tried to make it into a clubhouse.

Crow's presence here was a test of sorts. He provided real intellectual content; could people step up out of the pseudo-intellectual internet bullshit lord zone, and respond to something that was both unfamiliar and stimulating? Some of you did; I praise those. But the majority remain inert.

That inertia is why you're watching the world crumble around you. McDonald's didn't do it to you, The Jews(tm)(r)(sm) didn't do it to you, nor did government. We The People did it. You did.

I don't have that problem. I'm not inert. Crow's not inert, nor were the classic death metal bands. It's time to either step up to the plate, or have this place go away.

This actually ends up being a very good test:

Come up with a good argument why this forum should persist.

Otherwise, consider the countdown started. Crow, I and others who are not inert are looking forward to reclaiming this time, energy, server resources, etc. for something that succeeds.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Vigilance on February 24, 2014, 07:40:36 AM
If you're looking for constructive conversation, it's not going to be found in the metal crowd. Period. Most metal heads are fatalists or to some degree drop outs. Fuck em.

If anything, an Amerika.org forum would be far more productive in building a real community around conservatism. Not simply towards the conversation end, but in organizing real community action; the next step after talking and building a loyal readership.

The unfortunate reality, and this is something built into the psychological framework of the internet, is that people get to ventilate, put their beliefs and opinions out there in public and that "feels" like accomplishment. Most never get round to meaningful action.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: dead last on February 24, 2014, 07:54:13 AM
This may not be much of an argument for keeping the forum around but if not for DMU, I would not have known about Grave, Immortal, Infester, Morpheus Descends, Demilich, Mmassacra, Therion, Ildjarn, Fate's Warning - I needn't continue, my point is made. There are others out there, who are like I was, bored with metal after only a few years, ready to give it up if nothing new and interesting is available. Like myself, they probably would never think that the freshest and most advanced metal would be uncovered deep in the past. Who listens to music from 20 years ago, anyway? That's just not cool.

This is a great place for listeners or musicians who are looking to expand their depth of understanding toward metal. There are a lot of us out there still.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Tree on February 24, 2014, 09:06:09 AM
You are right. If this website and the ideas behind it are important to me, then surely I will give back in exchange for what I take. Otherwise I am a leech. In what specific ways do you want forum-goers to contribute to this website? Writing, spreading the good word?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: hell on February 24, 2014, 10:55:15 AM
Is not Time for whining.
neither yours nor mine or CROW.
you just have to move on, and this forum has been through worse times, sages come and go and ideas too.
inert am because of my bad English (a fatality since I have so much to say).
Nihilism = fuck all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7yVLWFWUVI

this is the attitude.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: aquarius on February 24, 2014, 10:56:27 AM
I agree with hell. The forum should be kept. Even if things have gone downhill lately (which personally I don't think they really have) it is still way better than just about anything else out there and that's a lot. My only advise would be for people to try and relax a bit more. Keep the conversations serious but civil, and you will enjoy it more. The world is a big enough mess already and I'm certainly not going to let interactions via the internet affect my day so profoundly.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: hell on February 24, 2014, 11:05:35 AM
The forum should be kept. Even if things have gone downhill lately (which personally I don't think they really have) it is still way better than just about anything else out there and that's a lot. My only advise would be for people to try and relax a bit more. Keep the conversations serious but civil, and you will enjoy it more. The world is a big enough mess already and I'm certainly NOT going to let interactions via the internet affect my day so profoundly.

Thank You Aquarius for put it better.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 11:11:53 AM
In the meantime, anybody with anything negative to say about any named names, especially mine, is gone.
That will leave only those with some faint clue.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 24, 2014, 12:09:13 PM
Kill it.  Pull the trigger and never look back.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 12:39:09 PM
What is that? Advice? Opinion?
Not up to you, is it?
What will be, will be.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 24, 2014, 12:53:47 PM
What is that? Advice? Opinion?
Not up to you, is it?
What will be, will be.

If the forum is an unproductive drag on bandwidth, and the goal here is something other than vanity, then kill it.  This isn't some short-term experiment that needs more time to develop clear results.  The forum has been around in one iteration or another for like, 15 years.  It is what it is, at this point.  If the forum has not yet produced results commensurate with the resources expended upon them by now, it is unlikely that there is a realistic possibility that they'll add more value going forward.  That's a value judgment better left to folks on the inside who know the score as far as how many resources are being devoted to the forum, but my inclination is to trust that, if DMBM says that the return on the investment hasn't been worth it, it hasn't been worth it.  In which case, my advice is "kill it."
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 01:06:34 PM
That advice would be valid if every member was a useless deadbeat, but that is not the case.
There are some gems who fly by from time to time.
It is a tough decision to bulldoze their landing-strip without careful thought.
And careful thought entails a process subtly different from impulse and intuition.
It will take a little longer to divine the course ahead.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 24, 2014, 01:40:52 PM
That advice would be valid if every member was a useless deadbeat, but that is not the case.
There are some gems who fly by from time to time.
It is a tough decision to bulldoze their landing-strip without careful thought.
And careful thought entails a process subtly different from impulse and intuition.
It will take a little longer to divine the course ahead.

There have been non-deadbeat members of the forums for 15 years, but the net result has been what, exactly?  Like I said, this hasn't been some fly-by-night experiment; it's an ongoing project of well over a decade's duration.  It has gone through multiple iterations of reform and reversion to the mean.  I have neither the desire nor the power to impose here; I'm just a witness for the prosecution.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 02:38:24 PM
That's the spirit. Too many seem to see themselves as running the joint, while unconsciously wrecking it, instead.
Meanwhile...
I am buried in snow here. The power has been out for 24 hours and I'm staggering along under battery power.
At any moment a huge snow-laden tree may crash down on my house, and that would be all she wrote.
So who knows? What may happen next?
It is supremely beautiful, outside. Beyond any description. What the consequences will be remains to be seen.
If I summarily vanish, myself, this will likely be why.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: lost_wanderer on February 24, 2014, 02:43:54 PM
I see this forum as a gateway to something greater, not a end in itself. I have learn a lot from it so I am grateful to the forum and the site and I am sure that other people have learned and will learn from it if it continue. But if you feel the effort of getting the ''gateway cleaned'' doesn't provide with the result that you have in mind, you may as well put your time in other ventures.

I don't have much to say right now than to go with your heart.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: KingdomGone on February 24, 2014, 03:12:26 PM
I see no point in continuing this. Let it out of its misery.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Wild on February 24, 2014, 03:50:04 PM
If you're looking for constructive conversation, it's not going to be found in the metal crowd. Period. Most metal heads are fatalists or to some degree drop outs. Fuck em.

If anything, an Amerika.org forum would be far more productive in building a real community around conservatism. Not simply towards the conversation end, but in organizing real community action; the next step after talking and building a loyal readership.

This seems like a good idea: kill this forum, and relegate metal commentary to discussions on the front page. The metal section on this board has almost died out as it is.

It seems like Amerika.org would be the better place to base the rest of it - there's an audience there who's already aware of what you're trying to get at. It could be a way to re-stimulate conversation with a new group who's not of the fatalistic type.

crow's said before that the standards over at amerika are different from dmu. This recent project seems like an attempt to force amerika's standards of discourse on metalheads - it may be more fruitful to just move it all over to amerika and allow the few metalheads who can obverse the rules over there.

The problem with this forum has been it's a holdover from the pre-DMU/amerika split.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 24, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
I appreciated the trouble you took to insert a small 'c' there, at the beginning of a sentence  :)
I've tried that in the past, and on a mac it's a difficult exercise.
That's good sense. I've long felt that with so many people interpreting nihilism as nothing more than fuck-everything, then there is no mileage to realized from trying to explain that nihilism can mean the exact opposite.
Dead-horse-kicking is only fun for so long.

Whatever...

My goodness, this one serious snowstorm we got going here in the Pacific-Northwest.
My nice modern socialist-Swedish Volvo was worse than useless, even simply trying to move it downhill into the second carport. Even with its goddamned snow tires and alleged all wheel drive.
While my rusty-trusty 1992 Pathfinder, which has never met anything it couldn't crawl through or over, gave yet another demonstration of why I just can't let it die.  If one can love a vehicle, then I love my Nissan.
My mac-mini draws little enough power that I can still - for now - get online, although the house is mostly in darkness.
Reality, or what?
Thank God for wood heat.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: death metal black metal on February 24, 2014, 07:17:09 PM
I think there are some rare exceptions. On the backs of their work most survive.

The rest get exactly what they deserve, which is ripoffs and manipulation. They create the government we have, our social decay, metalcore and everything else that is decay-bound. They are inert, focused on themselves only, and as brave individualists they deny everything else.

They are the opposite of nihilism.

Why metal degenerated was that the people who automatically sought to do things, to sustain and maintain things, to uphold ideals with more than chatter, were driven out by those who wanted to me-too.

I think the same thing has happened here, and crow called people on it, and they got bitter. Those same people -- talk about giving back -- were not even throwing effort into the discussions. Just posing and being cool (neckbeard cool).

This happens in every "underground" anywhere. The people that they make rules for move in. Those people need rules. Otherwise, they just hog, steal and parasitize.

I think Audiofile should live, but the rest can burn with no loss to humankind at this point.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: yanluowang on February 24, 2014, 08:08:06 PM
I think there are so many treasures in these forums. You should probably leave it as it is and focus the energy on where you deem worthwhile.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: JewishPhysics on February 24, 2014, 08:40:43 PM
This actually ends up being a very good test:

Come up with a good argument why this forum should persist.

Otherwise, consider the countdown started. Crow, I and others who are not inert are looking forward to reclaiming this time, energy, server resources, etc. for something that succeeds.
This place is one of the few in the which the exchange of information, knowledge, and wisdom can take place. Like so much else, this place is cyclic in nature. So many used to bitch about Prozak clones and now apparently the hip shit is calling decent newbies copy-crows. It's nice to have a place where people speak plainly, even if the cost is that a lot of fags show up.

I understand the frustration, though. I mean, this is literally the best I could come up with and it's rather self centered. The negativity is parasitic. Maybe you could keep this place alive if for no other purpose than giving crow a place to crack intellectual skulls.

Anyway, I trust you'll make the right call.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: badmash on February 24, 2014, 09:16:06 PM
I think the same thing has happened here, and crow called people on it, and they got bitter.

No matter how many times this is repeated, it wont become true. A strange us vs. them has developed amongst contributing, intelligent users. Real nihilists vs. Fake nihilists, imposed by immediate exclusion. Name names (this goes for everyone) and see if you can demonstrate this before you take a step on its basis. Take more than a glance. There is value in this forum and it was there before crow, during and will be after if it persists. Do not consider yourself immune to an echo chamber of opinion.

What exactly is it that you want? In concrete terms. Do you want people to assist you with the running of the website? Whatever it is, state it as goals, in simple language. I am personally willing to do whatever you require as long as it is within my power.

Whatever it is you want or will do, please stop falsely blaming good people for whatever problems you see. It only reflects poorly on you. There are no kvlt neckbeards here. I watched this play out closely, and my own first negative response was after a user was banned mid-contribution, mid-explanation. Are any even agreeing that they observe a problem or just repeating your words back at you (If you see a problem, solve it i.e.)? With the threat of an instant ban, who will be honest except in an enormously guarded fashion?

I have gained a lot personally from this forum and would be very sad to see it go, especially over something as ridiculous as these events. That is my only argument. It is the only one I can give honestly. Nevertheless ultimately you run it and may dispense with it as you please. If it detracts too much from actual work then I would say your hands are tied.

P.S.: Who exactly said copy-crow? What was the context it was stated in? I have only seen it stated once, by Vigilance to Tree (http://www.deathmetal.org/forum/index.php/topic,18171.msg88452.html#msg88452). Vigilance seems to still be around. It was a non-event (until...). The next step was an angry, threatening thread that referenced it and now it is on everybody`s lips? This is the kind of strangeness I see, disparaging decent people is what I bristled at in the first place (and am still doing). Did I miss something? Is it instead endemic?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Tree on February 24, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
I am going to echo badmash's sentiments. This is all very dramatic, and it's a bit sad to watch. I am under the impression that the people here are all very intelligent, and that they are all magnitudes more similar to each other than they are to most people in real life. We are here because we share a fundamental view about the world. Perhaps spending too much time here amplifies the small differences between us? Certainly we can work past those differences.../peace and love

I think that Vigilance is very intelligent. His opinion of me, no matter what it may be, is not a big deal. And yes, that is the only time that I have seen the phrase copy-crow issued.

Perhaps I am not very perceptive, but I am not sure who the supposed poseurs are.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: scourge on February 24, 2014, 10:02:50 PM
If anything, an Amerika.org forum would be far more productive in building a real community around conservatism. Not simply towards the conversation end, but in organizing real community action; the next step after talking and building a loyal readership.

Real community isn't started in a virtual forum. If the topics aren't already mainstream then a forum is going to inevitably have negligible impact. If they are mainstream in nature, it'll be redundant times ten thousand others like it and pretty pointless.

A discussion board can't resuscitate a vanishing art. Only artists can do that. Message boards are just news and thoughts flea markets where a few weekend vendors set up tables of different items of the day. Crowds of people will just blow through to see what's interesting and most of them are broke having nothing to offer except an anonymous visit.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Rotten Ralph on February 25, 2014, 04:12:50 AM
I think Audiofile should live,

Yes, I would appreciate if the Audiofile part is kept whatever the overall decision is as it serves its function and I'm sure more people will take advantage of it as the site grows.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: scourge on February 25, 2014, 12:12:19 PM
A strange us vs. them has developed amongst contributing, intelligent users. Real nihilists vs. Fake nihilists, imposed by immediate exclusion.

I've noticed that too. Nihilism acquires a fantasy credentialed status and a private forum image which can only come from loading it with social value. We true nihilists are the in-club you see.

I'd rather spend my time picking up ancient beer cans and tires to have my little patch of woods cleared before spring.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: NHA on February 26, 2014, 02:40:51 AM
Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or veee fuck you up.


Anyway, if policing/maintaining the forum isn't rewarding for you don't do it. Political revolutions only seem to be successful when the instigators are tapping into preexisting sentiment in the crowd anyway - i.e. preaching to the choir. Icelandic vulcanism probably had more of an impact on the french revolution than any enlightenment ideals. Severely traumatic events are required before a person's protective relationship with the preexisting Symbolic Order/Big Other/god is shattered. Once gone, it can be arbitrarily replaced, since humans have a problem with being confronted by otherness without the "protective screen" of the symbolic order - easily observed by breaking the most trivial of social protocols and watching how people freak the fuck out.

TLDR: the existence of this forum isn't going to gain you any meaningful influence.

Despite how easy subcultures are to manipulate through false elitism and symbolic fetish objects (used to manufacture authenticity), its still pretty difficult to do something as trivial as convince the majority that Opeth is a shitty metal band. Bands like Metallica and The Exploited have their particular reputations due to their implicit relationship with the preexisting order. Case in point: http://www.revleft.com/vb/exploited-t41374/index.html?s=9f65bee504f45d6f246cd06174b7984f&

Explicit message:
Quote
Thank goodness i only have one track by them... Fuck the usa..
im gonna delete it. damn punk posers. :angry:
punk rock is music of the left, how dare them use it like that!!!

o yeh.. FUCK 'EM!!!!

Implicit Message:
Thank goodness that you know my net loss of social status is mitigated by me having only 1 track and not the entire collection! I'm going to delete it so nobody questions my authenticity, and to congratulate myself on how i uphold my (other's) ideals.  I guess its true though, not everyone can be as authentic as me, but luckily they can exist as a symbolic reference point in which i can elevate myself in relation to. Punk rock is the music of my demographic, how dare they appropriate our exclusive branding in that manner! Don't they know it makes us feel less special?

Oh yeah, i should probably include something emotive to fully parade my dedication.



Whatever, just turn Audiofile into a radio station and archive. Should be more interesting than dicking around on a forum.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Undermind on February 26, 2014, 08:27:31 AM
From the about page:

Quote
It exists to spread two ideas: (a) that heavy metal is a form of art and not “entertainment” and (b) the origins of heavy metal are in the Romantic movement in art and literature, whose imagery and ideals it carries to this day.

Based on the quality of the content, it seems the site has done a great job of it's stated purpose.  The work speaks for itself.

However, the crux of the latest crisis to this site does not seem to concerned with the quality of its content.  It seems to be concerned with the quality of the audience it is reaching.

It has always been the exception, not the rule, that exceptional quality is recognized by the audience it deserves.  The popular trope with this sentiment is that great artists often die unrecognized.  The truth is that many great artist die and continue go unrecognized.

The contributors on deathmetal.org need to decide if the quality of the content or the quality of the audience has a greater bearing on them continuing to produce. If the work is not an end in itself, this site has been going about its purpose the entirely wrong way. 
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Undermind on February 26, 2014, 11:08:11 AM
Quote from: Zarathustra
OF ALL that is written, I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood, and thou wilt find that blood is spirit.

It is no easy task to understand unfamiliar blood; I hate the reading idlers.

He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader.  Another century of readers- and spirit itself will stink.

Every one being allowed to learn to read, ruineth in the long run not only writing but also thinking.

Once spirit was God, then it became man, and now it even becometh populace.

He that writeth in blood and proverbs doth not want to be read, but learnt by heart.

In the mountains the shortest way is from peak to peak, but for that route thou must have long legs. Proverbs should be peaks, and those spoken to should be big and tall.

The atmosphere rare and pure, danger near and the spirit full of a joyful wickedness: thus are things well matched.

I want to have goblins about me, for I am courageous. The courage which scareth away ghosts, createth for itself goblins- it wanteth to laugh.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Annihilation on February 26, 2014, 12:40:36 PM
The forums have undergone several "purges" at this point - of members, and content. Not long ago, crow had a thread lauding the state of the forum and its members. What happened between then and now, exactly?

There is a continual discontent with the level of contribution from most people who post here, yet the percentage of contributors seems fairly consistent, staffing changes superficially. After a decade, contribution isn't growing as a result of the management's disregard for consistent, specific, and constructive criticisms that have been leveled (as an old coworker would say: "Indian not the arrow"*).

Ultimately, no one here will lament deeply if the forum is burned, and it should go without saying that all who choose to rest here are appreciative. The mature will move on, and so is life.


*This is an important relationship to parse, and comes only with proper craft.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: anal_rapist on February 26, 2014, 03:52:29 PM
management's disregard for consistent, specific, and constructive criticisms that have been leveled

What are those?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: aquarius on February 26, 2014, 07:18:41 PM
I'm amazed that not many among you are prepared to admit just what a tremendous loss the end of this forum would be. You have here at least one tiny bit of space where intelligent and interesting communication can occur, if you get rid of that then there is truly nothing. And if anyone here can remember the old (pre- corrupt.org) forum from 10 years ago, I'm sure you'll be able to attest to the improvements. Things have come a very long way!
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 26, 2014, 09:01:03 PM
I like you, Aquarius. You're one of them 'humans' I've heard so much about, but so rarely run into, for the zombie hordes that get in the way.
You're right. You can easily recognize value, and still retain the capability to feel grateful.
What a weirdo  :)
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: badmash on February 27, 2014, 05:30:27 AM
I'm amazed that not many among you are prepared to admit just what a tremendous loss the end of this forum would be.

I was similarly amazed but then considered that professing attachment to a forum might not sit well with some. Understand though, that what you and I consider value is apparently nothing in the eyes of the owner. Which is confusing and should be elaborated on in clear language, but unfortunately we have to wait a few weeks.

A forum is not going to change the world except in little ways, we take what we gain from here and apply it to our lives. A forum is not going to be anything more than a social club for the like-minded. It is that almost by definition. Those little things are enormously valuable in my opinion though, but not in everyone's.

The forums have undergone several "purges" at this point - of members, and content. Not long ago, crow had a thread lauding the state of the forum and its members. What happened between then and now, exactly?

Nothing.

That lasted barely a day I think. I keep repeating that the whole thing is a delusion. This person has become used to being persecuted and driven out, by his own admission, and only sees this mentality everywhere. On one of the few places where he is likely to gain traction or at least tolerance, he ends up creating a divide and a problem anyway. Part of it was giving such a person admin tools. There were never enough posters to be problem posters. I know each and every one of you is at least smart, and somewhat awakened to the world no matter what we may disagree on. I cant name a single (not one), "problem poster", or "neckbeard", at least not for the last 5+ years or so.

I have my own theories about the whole saga (the why, not the what), lets just say I think it ultimately takes root from the ANUS Criticism thread. That was fairly heated if anyone recalls. Brett (who does not really read the forums) got the wrong idea from it, perhaps compounded by frustration that Things (tm) were not Happening (tm). He puts crow in charge to get rid of a problem that doesnt exist and he eagerly obliges. Eventually we reach the current stage. It really is just comedy, I would laugh if I didnt have a personal stake in this place.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 27, 2014, 05:51:26 AM
I'm amazed that not many among you are prepared to admit just what a tremendous loss the end of this forum would be. You have here at least one tiny bit of space where intelligent and interesting communication can occur, if you get rid of that then there is truly nothing. And if anyone here can remember the old (pre- corrupt.org) forum from 10 years ago, I'm sure you'll be able to attest to the improvements. Things have come a very long way!

The old forums were messy, mostly off topic and poisoned by constant e-drama, but they weren't an echo chamber, which is the mean the forums have tended to regress toward through several successive iterations of redesign and attempted repurposing.  The full on swerve into the minefield of racial politics in the middle of the last decade mostly drove away the remnants of intelligent opposition, and the flood of childish wreckers that poured in seems to have left the administration and the forum users here permanently wary of divergent viewpoints that weren't previously vetted (i.e. the estimable and invaluable crow).  That's a prescription for a clubhouse atmosphere, and that's generally what the forums have produced.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Wild on February 27, 2014, 06:45:52 AM
The only echo chamber here is caused by those who use the term "echo chamber".

The first post in this thread explained that a major problem with this forum has been that little contribution has emerged from it.

Then certain people show up and say that's perfectly normal, nothing wrong with that, and add they can't think of any problem posters (other than blaming crow).

Hmm...
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 27, 2014, 07:04:50 AM
The only echo chamber here is caused by those who use the term "echo chamber".

The first post in this thread explained that a major problem with this forum has been that little contribution has emerged from it.

Then certain people show up and say that's perfectly normal, nothing wrong with that, and add they can't think of any problem posters (other than blaming crow).

Hmm...

Until crow was introduced into the ecosystem, forum "discussion" consisted—in essence for years at a time—of folks endlessly sharing viewpoints that the active forum community already believed.  The "discussion" was congenial and (for the web) erudite, but a congenial, erudite circle jerk is still a circle jerk.  Bring back Nile577.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 10:56:12 AM
Part of being a crow is getting blamed for everything, by everyone unable to see what crows can see.
I once had two cats that blamed each other for everything. They would take it in turns, being oppressor/victim.
Nothing could stop them, or interrupt the cycle.
It was vaguely amusing to see, in two cats.
It's just plain sad to see it in humans.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: badmash on February 27, 2014, 11:02:33 AM
The only echo chamber here is caused by those who use the term "echo chamber".

The first post in this thread explained that a major problem with this forum has been that little contribution has emerged from it.

Then certain people show up and say that's perfectly normal, nothing wrong with that, and add they can't think of any problem posters (other than blaming crow).

Hmm...

Until crow was introduced into the ecosystem, forum "discussion" consisted—in essence for years at a time—of folks endlessly sharing viewpoints that the active forum community already believed.  The "discussion" was congenial and (for the web) erudite, but a congenial, erudite circle jerk is still a circle jerk.  Bring back Nile577.

You must be joking. Post introduction, all communication was overwhelmed by his presence eventually. Also it is entirely "on-message" stuff so that leaves me even more confused as to what you are saying. Most importantly, no one objects to the content.

Wild, if you know of a problem poster, I would like you to name them, please. My assessment of the situation may well be wrong, but I have not seen anything concrete to refute it from anyone. As for what has emerged from the forum, could you provide an example of what could realistically emerge from the forum in terms of accomplishment? There is too much vagueness to this whole business.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Wild on February 27, 2014, 11:26:46 AM
The only echo chamber here is caused by those who use the term "echo chamber".

The first post in this thread explained that a major problem with this forum has been that little contribution has emerged from it.

Then certain people show up and say that's perfectly normal, nothing wrong with that, and add they can't think of any problem posters (other than blaming crow).

Hmm...

Until crow was introduced into the ecosystem, forum "discussion" consisted—in essence for years at a time—of folks endlessly sharing viewpoints that the active forum community already believed.  The "discussion" was congenial and (for the web) erudite, but a congenial, erudite circle jerk is still a circle jerk.  Bring back Nile577.

You must be joking. Post introduction, all communication was overwhelmed by his presence eventually. Also it is entirely "on-message" stuff so that leaves me even more confused as to what you are saying. Most importantly, no one objects to the content.

Let's consider the following:

crow has been granted admin powers over the forum by Brett, who has supported him in his efforts thus far. There's nothing to indicate Brett would suddenly revoke this. Complaining about crow's presence has so far achieved nothing for you. In fact, it is part of a wider system of behavior which is leading Brett to consider closing the forum, which you claim to care about a great deal.

It may be time to re-examine cause & effect.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 11:28:01 AM
The message is inconsequential. Most will forever be unable to escape the automatic reflex to shoot the messenger.
Nihilism is a reset-button to set the stage to a universal lack of meaning.
OK. Nothing has any meaning. What next?
The next level is too high for many to consider rising to.
Far, far easier to simply get comfortable with nothing having any meaning, thus no purpose.
Fine. Fine.
Business as usual.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: badmash on February 27, 2014, 12:00:14 PM
Let's consider the following:

crow has been granted admin powers over the forum by Brett, who has supported him in his efforts thus far. There's nothing to indicate Brett would suddenly revoke this. Complaining about crow's presence has so far achieved nothing for you. In fact, it is part of a wider system of behavior which is leading Brett to consider closing the forum, which you claim to care about a great deal.

It may be time to re-examine cause & effect.

My friend I have only spoken up recently regarding this, when multiple bannings and unsubstantiated claims about the behaviour of forum users have reached a fever pitch. I have no illusions about achieving anything, but I also could not simply leave it alone for reasons I have already elaborated on. Are you able to demonstrate this wider system of behaviour? Remember that from the earliest, claims were made about conduct and creating an unwelcome environment for lurkers who would otherwise post. I have no intention of influencing Brett to remove these admin powers, I just think the entire thing was a mistake start to finish, an attempt to solve a problem that did not exist. Are you hinting at me being a problem poster outside of this saga?

Once again, if you are aware of any problem posters, I would like you to name them. This is not a challenge, simply a desire for me to be informed. I dont mind at all that conversation would circle entirely around crow, I have found plenty of his posts to have valuable insight.

Lets say I, or any other person that raised an issue regarding crow shut up or disappeared, would that address the complaints in the OP? Would that change anything regarding "useful" output from the forum? Also, could you please answer that as well? What kind of impact do you believe a forum like this can realistically have? What is not being done that can be?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 12:16:00 PM
It's all fantastically simple, really.
A matter of viewpoint.
Any society, from the grandest empire, right down to a circle of mud huts, can only operate within certain boundaries. These boundaries are not imposed to prevent people from being 'free'. They exist so that people don't kill each other and poison their own life support systems.
If people were broadly capable of resisting the urge to do, and say, anything they felt like doing or saying, in the interests of the larger society, then such boundaries would not be necessary. But the truth is, most people are not capable of any such self-discipline, and so limits must be imposed upon them. That's the way it is, and has always been.
Either you understand this, which puts you in the conservative camp, or you don't, which puts you in the leftist camp.
The only other position is the one I have characteristically occupied for my entire life: sitting on a distant fence, with no interest in being in either camp.
There's no other place for crows to sit.
Hated by both sides, for not being sufficiently in either one, they eventually learn to not give a shit, and scavenge what they can, where they can.
But what they do accomplish, is to actually live.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Wild on February 27, 2014, 01:28:51 PM
Quote
My friend I have only spoken up recently regarding this, when multiple bannings and unsubstantiated claims about the behaviour of forum users have reached a fever pitch.

If you're fallot, you were opposed to crow's project from the very beginning.

If you're not him, which one are you? It's starting to become hard to keep track of.

Quote
I have no illusions about achieving anything, but I also could not simply leave it alone for reasons I have already elaborated on.

If you don't expect to achieve anything, then why the fuck are you still bothering with it? This is the type of bullshit that is decried in this thread's first post.

Quote
Are you able to demonstrate this wider system of behaviour?

Look up.

Quote
Are you hinting at me being a problem poster outside of this saga?

Yes.

Quote
Once again, if you are aware of any problem posters, I would like you to name them.

fallot, transcix, umbrage. [notice a pattern here?]

Myself, at times.

And a few others who managed to correct their bullshit. Unsurprisingly, these people are still around.

Quote
Lets say I, or any other person that raised an issue regarding crow shut up or disappeared, would that address the complaints in the OP? Would that change anything regarding "useful" output from the forum?

No, but it would make it a lot less goddamn annoying.

Quote
Also, could you please answer that as well? What kind of impact do you believe a forum like this can realistically have? What is not being done that can be?

Productive output.

This includes articles, propaganda, and acting like a functional human being.

A lot to ask for.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 01:35:45 PM
Nice. Somebody 'get's it'. Good luck trying to communicate it to those that don't.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Wild on February 27, 2014, 01:37:47 PM
Nice. Somebody 'get's it'. Good luck trying to communicate it to those that don't.

It took me a long time.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 01:43:13 PM
It takes anybody a long time. That's why so few manage it.
However, once it kicks in, it's self-sustaining, rendering the endless bullshit from the laggards easily discernible for what it is.
People like Brett, and like me, and a handful of others, including you, don't need much success to have their efforts seem worthwhile. But they do, occasionally, need some.
Your single sentence made my day, and for that, I am very thankful.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: badmash on February 27, 2014, 01:51:50 PM
Quote from: Wild
...

I am fallot/trystero, yes. No, I have not been against crow from the beginning. A member was banned, I was irked and expressed this. Subsequently I was banned as well. At this point I left things alone for months. The pattern continued: Calling out people that didnt exist for behaviour that was not occuring, then treating those who objected as that problem in the first place and silencing them.

I dont think I ever agreed with Transcix on anything, but I dont think he should have been banned. Especially not if anyone has an issue with diversity of opinion here. Umbrage was also a good poster, as are BillHopkins and Tral. If you consider these people problem posters then we have nothing to talk about as I dont consider any of these to have a negative effect on discourse here or preventing any kind of positive work.

Who was responsible for the original complaint?. That being there are posters here who create an unwelcome atmosphere, stifling conversation and preventing lurkers from speaking up? As for productive output, could you be a little more precise here? Articles on the deathmetal.org website? I already engage in "propaganda" unless you are referring to site-based stuff. Really this is very vague and nothing that has not already been happening surely? Also, we are not all on the same page when it comes to the non-metal aspects of this place, can a forum exist if it is only considered a recruiting ground for certain political goals?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 02:05:57 PM
You take for granted the supplied medium upon which you superimpose your views, as if your views were the only reason for the medium to exist.
You could not express your views without the medium.
That is the nature of the problem, affecting you and several others.
You treat the forum, and those who supply and maintain it, in the same way you treat Reality.
Invisible. Meaningless. Taken for granted. To be shat upon while being used-up.

This is why the problem never goes away, because no matter how many times you and those like you are banned, you are so addicted to coming back and behaving in exactly the same way that got you banned, that nothing can ever change. Least of all your own consciousness.

It's a problem all right. The only obvious result of which is the eventual destruction of the forum.
Maybe then you'll be happy, and move on to the next target.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: badmash on February 27, 2014, 02:16:06 PM
I have never done any such thing. I have never even argued negatively with anyone on this forum except yourself, and only about what I perceive to be your own dismissive and destructive behaviour (which makes Wild's cryptic "Yes" completely unfathomable). I mostly try to be completely non-confrontational. My posting history is public, if you are able to point something out I would be glad to address it. I have no desire to stir shit up for its own sake and will quietly leave shortly. I do not take this forum for granted at all, I simply would not bother if that was the case. But do point something out before you cast further aspertions.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 02:20:29 PM
You may have noticed I do not play your game by your rules.
What you have not yet noticed is why I write what I write.
Nothing is ever about me. And always about It.
Few can see that.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Someone on February 27, 2014, 03:28:02 PM
It's not difficult.
DM.org has specific, narrowly defined goals.
The forum is provided solely as a means to facilitate those goals, free to the user, and at the expense of the leadership.
Some on the internet believe a forum owes its users the right to "free speech."
There are plenty of forums that do so.  This is not one.
If you criticize the content, undermine the leadership, or stir up dissent, you interfere with the realization of the website's goals.
DM.org promotes ideas and behaviors.  Believing the leadership should contribute their own funds to provide someone a pulpit from which to undermine those ideas and behaviors is pure narcissism. 
Try contributing positive content, or simply do not post.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 03:43:13 PM
Hehe. Someone is one to whom popularity is not an important issue.
White Man speak much sense. Other White Man shoot him many time for this.

Maybe we should take a look at what a 'contribution' actually is...

Perhaps the most useful kind of contribution is one which allows the words of others to stand wile not being necessarily understood by the one letting them stand.
Being 'kind' is a good start to being useful, too. As opposed to being gratuitously and eagerly 'unkind'.
Agreement is no standard at all, from which to judge worth.
Agreement is actually rather pointless. Many of the most revered and famous people in history started out being reviled, hated, and ridiculed for their unpopular views. Where would humanity have been without them?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 27, 2014, 08:04:59 PM
Quick question: have ya'll considered some form of "pay to play" system for the forums (doesn't necessarily have to be in a literal sense)?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 08:32:30 PM
I was discussing this very thing with Mrs. crow, earlier. Hard to make something like that work, though, especially since payment is not really the burning issue.
I prefer something along the lines of ability-to-comment by invitation/application only.
This might be outright preferable to the messiness inherent in banning users.
Continue to make everything free to passive users, with only reasonable behaviour rewarded with the ability to actively participate in discussion. Or rather, removing ability to comment from existing users.

It would be nice, eh, to not need admins at all, but that's not likely to ever be an option.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 27, 2014, 08:53:28 PM
I was discussing this very thing with Mrs. crow, earlier. Hard to make something like that work, though, especially since payment is not really the burning issue.
I prefer something along the lines of ability-to-comment by invitation/application only.
This might be outright preferable to the messiness inherent in banning users.
Continue to make everything free to passive users, with only reasonable behaviour rewarded with the ability to actively participate in discussion. Or rather, removing ability to comment from existing users.

It would be nice, eh, to not need admins at all, but that's not likely to ever be an option.

Not sure how feasible this is, but this was my thought:

1. Remove posting access from all current accounts (or, perhaps, from select accounts).

2. Make the restoration of posting privileges contingent upon providing some sort of work or service to the ongoing project here.

3. Only activate the accounts of newly registered members after they fulfill step 2.

I imagine that someone among the "leadership" has some idea of the tasks that need doing.  Perhaps we could compile a master list of "things as needs doin'" and let folks choose an item or items from the list.  Once the tasks are completed to the satisfaction of the leadership, their posting privileges would be restored.  N00bs, would, of course, have to prove themselves useful in the same fashion. 
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 08:59:34 PM
Thank you. That in itself is a 'contribution'.
The Chief is probably reading this, even as we write it, and so already, it is under consideration.
In practical terms, I must choose a test subject to experiment on, with the scary little buttons.
I wonder who it could be...
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 27, 2014, 09:11:12 PM
I'm not a deep thinker, but I've got a streak of pragmatism that runs deep and wide.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 09:44:57 PM
I'm not a deep thinker either, or rather, if I am, then it runs so deep as to be hidden from my own awareness altogether.
As for practicality, I have almost none, in terms of what is usually deemed practical. I don't have a clue.
But when seriously pushed, I can improvise, on a dime, in ways undreamed-of by those more practical.

Everybody seems to be good at something, although those somethings can sometimes be so unlikely that they mostly go unrecognized, even by those that seem to be good at them.

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on February 27, 2014, 10:12:15 PM
Often, I feel that people use the word "practical" to describe folks who are preoccupied with seeking feasible or easily attainable goals and the simplest, least-effort paths to achieving those goals.  In that sense, I'm not even remotely practical.  I think of pragmatism as being more of an openness to compromise, an ability to recognize when good enough is good enough (and when only perfect will do), and a certain ruthlessness toward the self.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on February 27, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
See. We have things in common. Most people do, once they get past the preference for the things they don't.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: indjaseemun on February 28, 2014, 03:25:51 AM
I have always focused on being correct.



Can you be correct while consciously being wrong?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Vigilance on February 28, 2014, 09:31:16 AM
The word reality being a shibboleth around here is annoying, but that comes from Brett's ANUS, not crow's tenure.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: death metal black metal on March 13, 2014, 08:07:25 PM
The word reality being a shibboleth around here is annoying, but that comes from Brett's ANUS, not crow's tenure.

Yes, that one is my fault!
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: 03-04 on March 14, 2014, 03:22:40 AM
It's not annoying. It's useful.

Brett has shat out a lot of useful stuff throughout the years :)

Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Time Curator 23 on March 14, 2014, 09:31:01 AM
You want a reason to go on with this website Prozak?

Ha ha ha...

Your weariness is understood.

But your cowardliness is unacceptable. Shake it off now, my friend. It is not befitting for a soul like you.

You act according to eternal principles, not immediate effects. You preserve and promote quality art because it deserves it, not because you egotistically want to see a favorable, tangible effect right away, and besides, the best advantages and gratifications are always long-term and never short-term. Stop this emo complaining about how it's hard, how there's no time, how the audience is unworthy and unhelpful. You keep a space open because, even if not today, someday a handful of kids might come along and will want a place to discuss (and later act on) ideas, a very metal activity if you ask me.

You fight because you were designed to, not because it might benefit you.

Pick up your bow and get back on your chariot.

This life is a war.

And you have come to win.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on March 14, 2014, 09:49:57 AM
Hitler did rather well when he was cool and sane.
His downfall arose in direct proportion to his loss of self-control, his rage became his undoing.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Undermind on March 14, 2014, 10:08:07 AM
Hitler did rather well when he was cool and sane.
His downfall arose in direct proportion to his loss of self-control, his rage became his undoing.

When you put it that way, he sounds an awful lot like the protagonist in some ancient greek tragedy.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: crow on March 14, 2014, 10:27:24 AM
He would have been a real poster-boy for the deathmetal crowd when his efforts bore fruit.
So the whole fiasco was a tragedy of epic proportions, when the master plan went pear-shaped.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
When you put it that way, he sounds an awful lot like the protagonist in some ancient greek tragedy.

Or Hamlet.

Or... Napoleon.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Dylar on March 14, 2014, 01:53:13 PM
"It is always the same with these terrible world-conquerors.  The first in everything, or Death."
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 01:59:02 PM
You want a reason to go on with this website Prozak?

The question is one of effect and being effective, not whether the content is correct. On the whole, I have never doubted that. I do rethink the details constantly.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: lost_wanderer on March 14, 2014, 02:08:19 PM
"It is always the same with these terrible world-conquerors.  The first in everything, or Death."

aut Caesar aut nihil
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Time Curator 23 on March 14, 2014, 05:29:24 PM
The question is one of effect and being effective, not whether the content is correct. On the whole, I have never doubted that. I do rethink the details constantly.

Right. I didn't get the sense you doubt the truth of which you write, only the sense you doubt yourself, or efficacy as writer. But why?
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 06:43:10 PM
I doubt the method.

The internet is television now.

Television is zero commitment, as a signal, for most people.

So their MO is to enjoy the programming, then do nothing.
Title: Re: Further ruminations
Post by: Vigilance on March 17, 2014, 08:37:38 AM
I doubt the method.

The internet is television now.

Television is zero commitment, as a signal, for most people.

So their MO is to enjoy the programming, then do nothing.

Only postage is real....