100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: TableauxParisiens on March 09, 2014, 12:52:02 PM

Title: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 09, 2014, 12:52:02 PM
This morning I woke up, ready to read some replies of a post I had posted last night, which highlighted how Nietzsche's philosophy is factually against the main tenets of this website (nationalism, traditionalism, far right politics). Unfortunately, like any other totalitarian approach to censorship, my post is nowhere to be found, all memory of the polemic gone. Has it upset the anal gods?

Anyways. Since the owners and large majority of the user base here are dogmatic sheep, who have misappropriated such great men like Nietzsche or Beethoven as their own, I bid you all adieu. I can't grow or learn through a philosophical ground blighted by the Far Right (just as moronic as the Far Left).

Well, hope you enjoy continuing the endless ranting, while doing nothing in particular.

 
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 09, 2014, 01:26:47 PM
It's too bad it was deleted. Misuses of Neizche are all too common.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 09, 2014, 01:36:37 PM
Hehe :)
I am not the only one with admin tools.

*****
Later edit...
I looked up the deleted post and staggered through it and its replies.
It's no wonder it is now gone.
Nearly every other site caters to leftists, but this one doesn't.
If the material here is so offensive to certain people, then those people would be well advised to go almost anywhere else, and read the reassuring things that they so obviously need to be able to agree with.
To show up and dis the site, its owner, its admins, and almost all of its readership, really isn't going to get anyone a warm welcome, or generate much tolerance.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 09, 2014, 03:56:22 PM
The point is not how my post was offensive to a certain political orientation. I never said I was left, in fact, I said I was against both sides. The point is that a philosopher who is taken as a hero here, one who disagrees with the majority of what you stand for, and a composer who was deaf and had mental illness, defeats everything you're against.

It's hypocritical, that's all.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 09, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
Now you call us hypocrites. Can you help yourself, or is this some condition you suffer from?
Maybe you simply don't understand something that is going on here. Maybe you don't recognize whatever it is.
I myself am certainly no right-winger, yet leftists always manage to accuse me of being that.
Along with hypocrisy, etc.

Get off your horse and say your piece, without the huge offense-quotient you've so far injected into it.
Any view is welcome. What isn't, is to deliver it in the way you have done until now.
Take another shot.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Wild on March 09, 2014, 06:30:46 PM
Thoughts for food:

1. Nietzche's writing predates many of the events that convulsed the 20th century and beyond. Some members of the Perennialist movement began as Nietzcheans and revised their views.

2. Amerika is not ANUS. Expecting a writer to maintain the same views for 20 years is absurd.

3. Those who claim to be against both the far left and far right are suspicious - what are they for? The middling left-global-capitalist consensus? Better to be even a communist!

4. Diagnosing mental illness in long-dead historical characters is a known pastime of leftists.

5. Perpetual victim behavior is a known pastime of leftists.

6. Calling someone a hero does not imply total agreement. Nietzsche's own heroes; he split with them radically on some matters.

~~~~~

That said, there is some relevance to your criticism. If you reformulate it in a non-cuntish manner, perhaps a worthwhile discussion could emerge.  :)
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: aquarius on March 09, 2014, 06:31:17 PM
I was thinking the same thing; there's a way to say things.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 09, 2014, 10:54:10 PM
Further, the post was factually wrong. Both Nietzsche and Beethoven expressed different things as they moved through the arc of their lives. What does one do, then? STUDY IT ALL and look for consistent patterns. Nietzsche's comments make clear what he thinks of "nationalism" of the day, which was actually nation-statism based in the revolts following the French Revolution; he affirms not just racial, but caste, nationalism in other areas of his writing. Same way we probably should note to whom the 3rd symphony was originally dedicated and what happened after that.

The main crime here is passive-aggression. I consider it the biggest problem in our civilization and will delete anything that doesn't have the balls to step up and make its point in a direct way. If you have a problem with that, go away (or wait for me to be busy).
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Angel of Disease on March 10, 2014, 10:50:47 AM
I've been trying to track down an English version of this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/japan-has-a-book-of-european-philosophers-as-anime-girls?s=mobile
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 12, 2014, 11:13:16 AM
Further, the post was factually wrong. Both Nietzsche and Beethoven expressed different things as they moved through the arc of their lives. What does one do, then? STUDY IT ALL and look for consistent patterns. Nietzsche's comments make clear what he thinks of "nationalism" of the day, which was actually nation-statism based in the revolts following the French Revolution; he affirms not just racial, but caste, nationalism in other areas of his writing. Same way we probably should note to whom the 3rd symphony was originally dedicated and what happened after that.

The main crime here is passive-aggression. I consider it the biggest problem in our civilization and will delete anything that doesn't have the balls to step up and make its point in a direct way. If you have a problem with that, go away (or wait for me to be busy).

None of this is true. I did not compare Beethoven to Nietzsche ideologically in any manner. My point was, here we have two individuals, who fly in the face of ANUS policy. If you misinterpret the Antichrist, you may assume he praises the Laws of Manu, but although he saw this as a superior form to most ancient hierarchies, the Europe of the future (in his eyes) was one country with one race. Another example in the Antichrist, is when he says early-on, 'First principle of our charity, the weak shall perish and one shall help them' and then later in the tail end, he praises a type of Renaissance man, who helps all those below him rise up. Why the paradox? Nietzsche wanted a society which bred a higher type, but realized that all organisms on the planet can contribute to a higher society, by ingratiation.

Passive-aggressive? What are you on about? I posted a thread as a polemic against this site, confirming that indeed Nietzsche stands starkly opposed to the majority of fluff on here. You delete the post, without warning, just because it offends your sensibilities (the fascist far right sensibilities, which lead to censorship, and covering up facts). Do you know what passive-aggressive is..?

A panegyric of mental (so-called) illness has nothing to do with political orientation, unlike your whitewashing of a certain side of the political spectrum, it has to do with the Romantic ideal. Those with mental illness are overman, they interpret the world through other methods (non-common sensical), and through their pain and other forms of consciousness, transcend the limits of the average and stable ie: Nietzsche's philosophy in a nutshell.

Prozak applauded a blind man being punched on a bus, and goes on and on about exterminating the physically and mentally frail, which in his society would include Beethoven and Nietzsche (and every other artist for that matter). Please, just remove those two from your heroes. They would feel disgraced to know they were being deified on this website.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 11:31:04 AM
Ah. It is good to wake up and realize how deluded I have been. It is - in fact - you that runs this website, and decrees how it should be done. Thank you so much.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 12, 2014, 11:44:33 AM
Ah. It is good to wake up and realize how deluded I have been. It is - in fact - you that runs this website, and decrees how it should be done. Thank you so much.
Again, another novel post by you. The point is that Nietzsche wouldn't want to be on a website that is run by a group of people or an individual. In a way, I am standing up for a philosopher who would vomit at being manipulated into a poster-boy for the far-right and Prozak's philosophy, especially a philosophy which is contrary to his whole being.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 11:55:42 AM
Maybe it went right by you, somehow, but both your heroes are dead.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 11:58:00 AM
Fascism has nothing to do with the far right. It's a common misconception. If anything, fascism was totalitarian centrism.

If you want to talk about the misconception of Neitzche that's fine and well, but do it in a way that is free of the pithy moral platitudes.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: lost_wanderer on March 12, 2014, 12:01:10 PM
I think the best way to go through this is to forget about a the individual (e.g. Nietzsche) and to follow what you think is the best of his ideas. Meaning is not attached to an particuiar individual even thought  some individual are more close to the Truth. Individuals come from life, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 12, 2014, 12:05:28 PM
Fascism has nothing to do with the far right. It's a common misconception. If anything, fascism was totalitarian centrism.

If you want to talk about the misconception of Neitzche that's fine and well, but do it in a way that is free of the pithy moral platitudes.
Far right ideals like eugenics or nationalism leads to fascism, always, as you need a strong head and military guard to intimidate the masses into accepting policies which would be rejected by thinkers and the public automatically. A cultural revolution or great leap forward, for example.

Pithy moral platitudes? What? The whole point of my posts have been to attack the morality of politics, whether left or right.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: NHA on March 12, 2014, 12:07:52 PM
Quote
Fascism has nothing to do with the far right. It's a common misconception.

Just because fascism is nuanced and hard to place on the spectrum doesn't mean that it has nothing to do with the far right.

The left/right scale is overly simplistic, to the point of being useless, for anything other than propaganda purposes - i.e. we're on this side; if you are on the other, then you are a horrible person, tsk tsk.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 12:09:51 PM
Thinkers and the public? Are those two groups somehow connected?
My own experience of fascists is that they are, without exception, left-wingers who excel in projecting their own mental state onto anyone who is not like them.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: NHA on March 12, 2014, 12:15:15 PM
Thinkers and the public? Are those two groups somehow connected?
My own experience of fascists is that they are, without exception, left-wingers who excel in projecting their own mental state onto anyone who is not like them.

Anti-egalitarianism is central to fascism making any sense at all - a concept the left begins foaming at the mouth when confronted with.

No doubt though, fascism has certain elements of the left in it.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 12, 2014, 12:16:44 PM
Thinkers and the public? Are those two groups somehow connected?
My own experience of fascists is that they are, without exception, left-wingers who excel in projecting their own mental state onto anyone who is not like them.

Without the public, thinkers would not go through turmoil to become thinkers. The public also represent the social currents of the time, and the actions or inaction of the public sphere represent how open a society is, and open societies allow extreme thought from any orientation. In Mao's time, philosophy didn't exist, look further, and you see a muzzled and brainwashed public. 

Really? Stalin enacted almost all the ideals treasured here, not to mention the news updates which praised Kim Jung Il etc.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 12:19:08 PM
So thinkers are - in fact - a big mess, filled with angst and inner turmoil. That's what I've been claiming all along.
Good for you, coming to that all by yourself.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 12:30:08 PM
RE: Fascism.

First, I agree that left/right is past its pull date, but that's besides the point.

First off, the actual fascists movements set out to transform every dimension of society, not just the political dimension.

Each fascist regime openly opposed Marxism, liberalism and conservatism. This is a matter of recorded historical fact.

The conservatives of that period supported aristocracy, localism and the like. Fascists emphasized a totality in which traditional hierarchies were abandoned.

Racial preferences was common at the time of the last major outbreak of ffascist movements. For that matter so was militarism and eugenics. These are crucial points. The liberal parties of that period were pro-imperialism and pro-military expansion for example. The fascists were generally populists who used common peripheral talking points to gain support coupled with a desire to overturn the existing stale-mates by positing meaningful corrective action to the problems of that time period in a way that the existing leadership failed to do.

The democratic systems of the time were gridlocked. Charismatic leaders seized the opportunity by saying what was on everyone's mind, but going the step further to dissolve the frozen democratic systems and establish a new modern order.


Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 12:33:50 PM
A bit like slavery then: seemed like a good idea at the time, but as times changed, that good idea became a bad one.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 12:38:02 PM
A bit like slavery then: seemed like a good idea at the time, but as times changed, that good idea became a bad one.

That's how it ended up, because fascism, like all Utopian movements, posit Reformations that in one way or another, leave out a few human quirks here and there. Thus, when they get into power, they enact tyranny and genocide because those little quirks stand in the way of the "New Order." Their conception of humanity is always counter propositional to the way humanity behaves.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 12:40:13 PM
I must be ahead of my time.
I have become very aware that humans are a lost cause, and no matter what, will always revert to whatever sludge they temporarily arose from.
That's a shame. But there it is.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 12, 2014, 12:40:30 PM
I went fishing this morning, and hooked the largest trout I have ever seen in person.  She fought hard—so hard, in fact, that her little two-chambered heart just couldn't keep up in the end.  After several minutes, it became apparent that she just wasn't going to be able to swim away.  It was for me a moment both sad and beautiful.  Sad because I really came with no intent to harm such a lovely creature, but beautiful in the fashion that the struggle of life is always beautiful, be it ever so futile.  Here was something that, incapable of even the thought of being something it was not, died simply to be what it was. 

It's strange how much effort humans devote to showing themselves to the world to be something other than what they are, how much energy most of us devote to convincing the folks around us—and ourselves—that the image we project is the substance of being.  If other living things had time to worry about something other than being what they are, I suspect they'd hold us in quite a bit of contempt.  I know I do.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 12:44:10 PM
I must be ahead of my time.
I have become very aware that humans are a lost cause, and no matter what, will always revert to whatever sludge they temporarily arose from.
That's a shame. But there it is.

I guess we differ. I'm perfectly fine with being what we are.  When I was younger, I used to care more about what "could" be. I care less now and knowing what happens when we try to attain various visions of what "could" be by our own hands, I'll leave such notions at the door.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 12:46:33 PM
As Dylar just so eloquently described: if we were what we are, and nothing else, there would not be a problem.
It would be what it really is: beautiful and right.
But insofar as humans seem unable to ever be what they are, their useless doom is the inevitable result.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I have a hard time seeing how this:

"It's strange how much effort humans devote to showing themselves to the world to be something other than what they are, how much energy most of us devote to convincing the folks around us—and ourselves—that the image we project is the substance of being.  If other living things had time to worry about something other than being what they are, I suspect they'd hold us in quite a bit of contempt.  I know I do."

Is not humanity being humanity. That's the difference.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 12:55:50 PM
Makes me wonder if I didn't become something other than human, at some point in my mystical development.
Others have observed that I don't just call myself 'crow', I am a crow.
Suits me. It has long been a source of embarrassment to be taken for a human.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 12, 2014, 12:55:54 PM
I have a hard time seeing how this:

"It's strange how much effort humans devote to showing themselves to the world to be something other than what they are, how much energy most of us devote to convincing the folks around us—and ourselves—that the image we project is the substance of being.  If other living things had time to worry about something other than being what they are, I suspect they'd hold us in quite a bit of contempt.  I know I do."

Is not humanity being humanity. That's the difference.

Perhaps, like the trout's inefficient, two-chambered heart, it is one of those 'fatal flaws' that the messy process of evolution often leaves intact.  Under favorable conditions, it is no real impediment, or perhaps even a virtue; under conditions of stress, it becomes essentially destructive.

That said, it seems suspiciously like a cultural practice than "human nature" as such, given the varying rates of prevalence in different populations.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 01:00:32 PM
Better to auto-die than be killed by monstrous human who fucks-with-fishes-for-fun?

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 12, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Better to auto-die than be killed by monstrous human who fucks-with-fishes-for-fun?

Or better to auto-die under relatively unusual circumstances than take the metabolic penalty associated with a more elaborate circulatory system.  It takes a truly extraordinary fish to fight itself to death.  The capacity of a smaller fish to resist is generally exceeded long before its heart or energy budget gives out. 

The terms a fish usually gets from me are rather more lenient than they can expect from an otter, a heron, or a bigger trout.  I'm not sure that makes what I do any less monstrous, but the next step up the food chain is always a monster.  There's a reason top predators haunt the collective nightmares of humanity, too.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 01:08:08 PM
I have a hard time seeing how this:

"It's strange how much effort humans devote to showing themselves to the world to be something other than what they are, how much energy most of us devote to convincing the folks around us—and ourselves—that the image we project is the substance of being.  If other living things had time to worry about something other than being what they are, I suspect they'd hold us in quite a bit of contempt.  I know I do."

Is not humanity being humanity. That's the difference.

Perhaps, like the trout's inefficient, two-chambered heart, it is one of those 'fatal flaws' that the messy process of evolution often leaves intact.  Under favorable conditions, it is no real impediment, or perhaps even a virtue; under conditions of stress, it becomes essentially destructive.

That said, it seems suspiciously like a cultural practice than "human nature" as such, given the varying rates of prevalence in different populations.

I don't know. Our brand of social primate has adaptions that others like it do not posses, stacked utop older revisions. Adaptions are exactly what you describe: optimal under the conditions they arose to deal with and potentially fatal in other circumstances.

You can witness a sort of posturing in other mammals that by all reasonable accounts, is done with the intent to communicate an illusion of superiority.

There are non-cognitive adaptions we can see on other species which provide illusions of being something other than what they are to the onlooker.

I'd suggest that cultural variance is just as much a part of the human condition as anything else.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
Nice, Dylar. I'm glad you didn't take that personally, as so many would have.
I once saw a huge sailfish get hooked by a gringo on a boat in the Sea of Cortez.
The beast fought valiantly for maybe fifteen minutes, until getting lucky and speeding off.
Even the pinche gringo had to admire it.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 12, 2014, 01:18:50 PM
Nice, Dylar. I'm glad you didn't take that personally, as so many would have.
I once saw a huge sailfish get hooked by a gringo on a boat in the Sea of Cortez.
The beast fought valiantly for maybe fifteen minutes, until getting lucky and speeding off.
Even the pinche gringo had to admire it.

If fishing is a sport, it is most certainly a blood sport, and anyone who pretends otherwise is lying to himself.  I'm a lot of things, most of them indifferent to bad, but I'm no liar.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 12, 2014, 01:27:15 PM
I have a hard time seeing how this:

"It's strange how much effort humans devote to showing themselves to the world to be something other than what they are, how much energy most of us devote to convincing the folks around us—and ourselves—that the image we project is the substance of being.  If other living things had time to worry about something other than being what they are, I suspect they'd hold us in quite a bit of contempt.  I know I do."

Is not humanity being humanity. That's the difference.

Perhaps, like the trout's inefficient, two-chambered heart, it is one of those 'fatal flaws' that the messy process of evolution often leaves intact.  Under favorable conditions, it is no real impediment, or perhaps even a virtue; under conditions of stress, it becomes essentially destructive.

That said, it seems suspiciously like a cultural practice than "human nature" as such, given the varying rates of prevalence in different populations.

I don't know. Our brand of social primate has adaptions that others like it do not posses, stacked utop older revisions. Adaptions are exactly what you describe: optimal under the conditions they arose to deal with and potentially fatal in other circumstances.

You can witness a sort of posturing in other mammals that by all reasonable accounts, is done with the intent to communicate an illusion of superiority.

I think this reading is more in the nature of anthropomorphization.  Animals don't "posture" to communicate an "illusion of superiority," they posture to indicate a willingness to resist violently if necessary. 
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 01:35:57 PM
I have a hard time seeing how this:

"It's strange how much effort humans devote to showing themselves to the world to be something other than what they are, how much energy most of us devote to convincing the folks around us—and ourselves—that the image we project is the substance of being.  If other living things had time to worry about something other than being what they are, I suspect they'd hold us in quite a bit of contempt.  I know I do."

Is not humanity being humanity. That's the difference.

Perhaps, like the trout's inefficient, two-chambered heart, it is one of those 'fatal flaws' that the messy process of evolution often leaves intact.  Under favorable conditions, it is no real impediment, or perhaps even a virtue; under conditions of stress, it becomes essentially destructive.

That said, it seems suspiciously like a cultural practice than "human nature" as such, given the varying rates of prevalence in different populations.

I don't know. Our brand of social primate has adaptions that others like it do not posses, stacked utop older revisions. Adaptions are exactly what you describe: optimal under the conditions they arose to deal with and potentially fatal in other circumstances.

You can witness a sort of posturing in other mammals that by all reasonable accounts, is done with the intent to communicate an illusion of superiority.

I think this reading is more in the nature of anthropomorphization.  Animals don't "posture" to communicate an "illusion of superiority," they posture to indicate a willingness to resist violently if necessary.

If that's your interpretation, I doubt any more of my words can change it. ;)
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 12, 2014, 01:43:58 PM
A bit like slavery then: seemed like a good idea at the time, but as times changed, that good idea became a bad one.

That's how it ended up, because fascism, like all Utopian movements, posit Reformations that in one way or another, leave out a few human quirks here and there. Thus, when they get into power, they enact tyranny and genocide because those little quirks stand in the way of the "New Order." Their conception of humanity is always counter propositional to the way humanity behaves.

Exactly. All human systems inevitably lead to exclusion of certain forms of humanity, because any system has to be closed to be a system. Fascism, democracy, aristocracy, communism, socialism, they all will fail because it is impossible for them to understand all. Anarchism seems like the solution, but wouldn't it eventually end in the eco-raping mass culture form of democracy today, since the exploiters would improve on patterns to train the masses to exploit themselves?
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 12, 2014, 02:18:43 PM
A bit like slavery then: seemed like a good idea at the time, but as times changed, that good idea became a bad one.

That's how it ended up, because fascism, like all Utopian movements, posit Reformations that in one way or another, leave out a few human quirks here and there. Thus, when they get into power, they enact tyranny and genocide because those little quirks stand in the way of the "New Order." Their conception of humanity is always counter propositional to the way humanity behaves.

Exactly. All human systems inevitably lead to exclusion of certain forms of humanity, because any system has to be closed to be a system. Fascism, democracy, aristocracy, communism, socialism, they all will fail because it is impossible for them to understand all. Anarchism seems like the solution, but wouldn't it eventually end in the eco-raping mass culture form of democracy today, since the exploiters would improve on patterns to train the masses to exploit themselves?

The statement is really only applicable to utopias. The American Democracy has been through the cycles outlined in Plato's Republic more than once now. If the system itself falls it will be due to two primary factors:

1) The failures of the cultural mythology of progress are misattributed as failures of democracy because

2) the common understanding of democracy is its definition, not the thing in practice over the course of history. Analogous to the claim that communism was never tested because no society met the rigid theory of Marx.

Thus it's easy to miss a happy coexistence between aristocracy and democracy and view the two as being opposed, despite the wealth of historical examples demonstrating otherwise.

Re: Anarchy

Anarchy is a mess. It's not worth elaborating further on that point since most anarchist social models tend towards Utopia.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 12, 2014, 04:28:32 PM
I used to get exercised by politics, the mechanics and the isms and all the shiny, shiny pageantry.  It's pretty easy to get sucked in; people like to be a part of something bigger than themselves, and politics is an obvious vector for those impulses.  The problem is you get inside and you realize that everyone is fighting to be the one who gets to define what exactly it is that is bigger than our individual selves.  You end up wading in this vile slurry of emotional projection, fantasy wish fulfillment and raging ego.  Gross.

The funny thing about stuff that's bigger than us, though, is that it's bigger than us.  Politics isn't, really.  It's just us writ large, a rather less inspiring notion.  It is the illusion of control rather than the substance, and the substance in this case really is unobtainable.  Remember, bigger than us; we're eminently dispensable.  I tend toward a strategy these days of tending to the little corner of the universe I occupy, and, you know, just mostly trying not to be a dick.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 12, 2014, 05:22:55 PM
Smarter than the average bear :)
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 12, 2014, 05:34:40 PM
I tend toward a strategy these days of tending to the little corner of the universe I occupy, and, you know, just mostly trying not to be a dick.

This is generally known as submission, acceptance, and concession.

It's just us writ large, a rather less inspiring notion.

Sounds like democracy, which is the individual projected onto the larger screen. Not every approach has that flaw.

Quote
Thus it's easy to miss a happy coexistence between aristocracy and democracy and view the two as being opposed, despite the wealth of historical examples demonstrating otherwise.

Part of the problem is a signaling problem. Democracy is shaped around the individual; aristocracy is shaped around the social order and serving its ideals.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: NHA on March 12, 2014, 08:06:24 PM
I don't really see there being any fundamental difference between the various power structures. It's always an elite few ruling over the masses. In (representative) democracy the system gets to choose who and what you are allowed to vote for. In communism the means of production, and wealth, are in the hands of the inner party members, not the people. UAE/Dubai is a monarchy, yet effectively looks every bit as crass as american style capitalism.


I think my biggest gripe with democracy is that it has the annoying ability to endlessly shift blame to different branches of the government. Sure you can replace the president but it doesn't effect the majority of the power structure.

At least in a monarchy its clear who to lynch if needed.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 13, 2014, 10:51:48 AM
I tend toward a strategy these days of tending to the little corner of the universe I occupy, and, you know, just mostly trying not to be a dick.

This is generally known as submission, acceptance, and concession.

It's just us writ large, a rather less inspiring notion.

Sounds like democracy, which is the individual projected onto the larger screen. Not every approach has that flaw.

Quote
Thus it's easy to miss a happy coexistence between aristocracy and democracy and view the two as being opposed, despite the wealth of historical examples demonstrating otherwise.

Part of the problem is a signaling problem. Democracy is shaped around the individual; aristocracy is shaped around the social order and serving its ideals.

I don't agree with this and will offer up the American South prior to the American Civil War as support for my claims.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 12:35:50 PM

This is generally known as submission, acceptance, and concession.

And since when have we cared how things are "generally" known?  I don't care a whit what the crowd thinks, and I doubt you do either.

Quote
Sounds like democracy, which is the individual projected onto the larger screen. Not every approach has that flaw.

In theory?  Probably not.  The practice, as always is a lot messier.   It is fairly instructive that the attempts in the last century to develop an alternative to Western-style democracy all rapidly decayed into personality cults, a process we've gotten to witness in real time in Russia over the last decade or so.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 13, 2014, 12:54:12 PM
I had the impression DMBM was having an off-day when he wrote that comment.
On the other hand, from what I know of him, it was probably deliberate, to see how many readers were still awake :)
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 13, 2014, 03:40:28 PM
And since when have we cared how things are "generally" known?

We all care what is generally know. We're using language, which depends on tokens being roughly identical in understanding between speaker and listener for there to be any actual communication.

Besides, that dodges the fact:

Quote
This is generally known as submission, acceptance, and concession.

"I'll just fix up my yard and make it nice and ignore the world" is how we got in this situation. It's submission, acceptance and concession. You're giving everyone else the OK to do whatever they want.

It is imperative to instead at least speak up and push back. Or you grant them approval.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 04:06:52 PM
Experience suggests another possibility to me.  Society works when everyone tends his own garden and straightens his own back yard, and it fails when it fills up with people ready to root around in other folks' yards.  That is, in a nutshell, what liberalism is; a bunch of busybodies who think that society should be empowered to tend everyone's spaces for them.  This puts the strong at the mercy of the weak, and makes the weak entirely dependent on society for their existence.  Not surprisingly, it benefits no one but the little Eichmann's of the bureaucratic castes.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 13, 2014, 04:26:00 PM
Society works when everyone tends his own garden and straightens his own back yard, and it fails when it fills up with people ready to root around in other folks' yards.

Experience suggests otherwise -- you either have strong leadership, or your civilization falls apart. You either have cultural values, or you have anarchy. You seem to prefer the shopping mall model which, not surprisingly, is what you have.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 04:29:36 PM
Society works when everyone tends his own garden and straightens his own back yard, and it fails when it fills up with people ready to root around in other folks' yards.

Experience suggests otherwise -- you either have strong leadership, or your civilization falls apart. You either have cultural values, or you have anarchy. You seem to prefer the shopping mall model which, not surprisingly, is what you have.

Who was more a leader, Cincinnatus at his plow, or Coriolanus at the head of an army?  You speak of "leadership" is if it were about making people do things, but that's not leadership; it is domination, and domination is always an exercise of the ego.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Angel of Disease on March 13, 2014, 04:38:54 PM
We will dominaaaaaaaate (Evil D, Morbid Gerbil)

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Angel of Disease on March 13, 2014, 04:47:14 PM
re: tending to ones own lawn

Justice and virtues can't be understood in isolation.

See if your neighborhood has decent lawns. Anyone that doesn't do the basics of lawn care should be corrected.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 13, 2014, 04:53:26 PM
You speak of "leadership" is if it were about making people do things, but that's not leadership; it is domination, and domination is always an exercise of the ego.

Civilization is about making people do things. In times of war, we defend; in times of peace, decisions must be made that involve all. To pretend otherwise is trendy libertarian double-speak, but it's not an address of reality.

Further the dichotomy between "domination" and "leadership." Leadership is making the right decisions. Domination is a method. It has no necessary link to the ego, except in those unworthy of the responsibility.

This is true whether at a company, a PTA bake sale, a local church committee, a farm, even a family. Leadership is necessary or it becomes "everyone do whatever they want," which is what you advocate.

The problem with liberalism is not that it exercises power; it's that its consequences are always bad because it is based in illusion.

I prefer organic leadership, which consists of putting the best people in charge and having a cultural shared values system to do the rest. This is distinct from the modern state, which operates by ideological commitment and shuns both the idea of people quality and cultural shared values because those conflict with its justification for rule, which is the equality of the individual.

And that is what you are arguing for here.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 13, 2014, 05:21:14 PM
Warning: Paradox Ahead.
Both views being valid, depending upon scope and context.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 05:32:30 PM
re: tending to ones own lawn

Justice and virtues can't be understood in isolation.

See if your neighborhood has decent lawns. Anyone that doesn't do the basics of lawn care should be corrected.

I used to have neighbors who were sort of slovenly in the upkeep of their property ("We're not into maintenance around here," was how they liked to phrase it).  The old codger across the street couldn't fucking stand it, and in his defense, their property really was quite the local eyesore.  But the harder he pushed, the more times he tried to get the neighborhood association to weigh in, the more nuisance calls he made to the cops, the less effort they put into keeping their property up.

Now, I knew that they weren't inherently lazy folks; in their back yard, they keep a lovely kitchen garden as well as few hens (I've been trading fish for eggs and produce since moving in).  Last spring, I went over to drop off a trout I'd promised to smoke for them, and we got to talking about the latest round of their ongoing feud with the Old Codger.  I asked them why they didn't just suck it up and do the maintenance to get him off their backs.  Well, it turns out that the reason they were "not into maintenance" is that neither of them had ever really used tools.  They didn't even begin to have the skill sets to perform repairs themselves, and, financially, hiring people to take care of the most unsightly and pressing problems was out of the question.

Sadly, I'm no great shakes with tools, either, and my DIY projects always look like what they are; make-do approximations built by someone who doesn't really know what the hell he's doing.  But I do know someone who is an absolute genius with a hammer in his hand: the Old Codger.  Ultimately, it took some back and forth and a lot of (annoying) mediation, but for the last year, the Old Codger has been over at their house nearly every weekend, teaching our maintenance free couple how to fix and keep up their property.  The street looks way nicer, the Codger is staying busy doing something other than obsessing about the imperfections of his neighbors, and I don't have cop cars parked out in front of my house twice a month.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 13, 2014, 05:38:42 PM
Hehe. Great story!
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Angel of Disease on March 13, 2014, 06:32:17 PM
Cool story. The neighborhood came together to correct the issue.

Both of my neighbors are elderly and I help them out with different tasks here and there. Occasionally I get a few drinks out of the deal.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Civilization is about making people do things.

Civilization is about getting people to do things, which is a different kettle of fish.  Sometimes, the doing must be, to some degree, compelled.  The problem is that compulsion can only ever be a temporary fix, a means of exerting control in crisis.  It can't form the basis of a social order, and every society ever built on a framework of raw compulsion self-destructed within a generation or two, at most.  Certainly, knocking heads has to be in the tool box, so to speak, but that's a remedy for the things that leadership alone can't fix.

Quote
In times of war, we defend; in times of peace, decisions must be made that involve all. To pretend otherwise is trendy libertarian double-speak, but it's not an address of reality.

I don't disagree with the premise, I just have no faith in the notion that, "Get the right leaders, and force everyone to follow them," addresses reality, either.  At some point, you have to get people to buy into the program, not just shuffle along for the moment because you'll crack heads if they don't.  There's no hammer big enough to keep everyone in line forever, and, eventually the folks being 'led' always figure that out. 

Understand that I'm not advocating surrender, I'm just advocating for avenues for leadership that aren't tied to "politics" as such.  For me, that means starting by putting those places where I have the power to effect immediate change in order and working out.  I stick to my back yard, but it's a big back yard, if the distinction means something. 
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 13, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
Sometimes, the doing must be, to some degree, compelled. 

And he reverses his position. How modern.

I just have no faith in the notion that, "Get the right leaders, and force everyone to follow them," addresses reality, either. 

And the false dichotomy.

And the anecdotal story where the real problem was that someone lied and was passive-aggressive instead of being honest. It has zero relevance to what we're discussing.

If you wonder why people stay away from forums now...
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 13, 2014, 08:57:10 PM
Dylar, your words describe a worldview, and that worldview describes a state, and that state is something of a phenomenon. Not a very good one, but certainly an interesting one.

It seems impossible to describe to the young, a civilized state in which personal freedom is not the be-all-and-end-all. I say personal freedom, because it differs substantially from actual freedom.

When one is competently led, by a competent leader, many arduous stresses are removed from daily life.
One no longer has to have opinions about absolutely everything, or need to decide what to go along with, or not.
One's path is clear, meaning one may go along that path, or elope to be personally responsible for one's survival, rather than have the state be responsible, in return for services-rendered.

There is a great deal of freedom inherent in the old style of strong leadership over a nation. And a great deal of dignity, which is something most moderns don't even know the meaning of, since it is entirely missing at this point.

Personally, I have always opted out of civilization, because it really never suited me, or me it. But I never saw it as flawed, or lacking, or in any way undeserving of continuation, until recently.
It's one sick puppy nowadays.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 09:48:38 PM
Sometimes, the doing must be, to some degree, compelled. 

And he reverses his position. How modern.

I never suggested that compulsion has no place in society; I'm just saying compulsion can't be the primary basis of a healthy social order.  It's necessary if you're running a prison, but at best suboptimal if you want to run a civilization. 

I'm not saying this out of some squishy love for mythical rights.  You hate passive-aggression, but compulsion breeds passive aggression.  It nurtures and in many ways rewards passive-aggression.  The more you compel, the more that resistance takes this particularly odious form.  Fine, if you're cool with just piling on proles 'til the job gets done, but I don't think that's what you have in mind.


Quote
And the anecdotal story where the real problem was that someone lied and was passive-aggressive instead of being honest. It has zero relevance to what we're discussing.

A lot of of the basic stuff of "civilization" is penny ante crap, and a lot of making it all work is resolving the penny ante crap without leaving petty, festering resentments shot through the whole warp and weft of society.  The problem with penny ante crap is that it is A.) resolving penny ante crap is mostly a waste of a leader's time and B.) a lot of penny ante crap is remarkably resistant to the application of leadership. 

In any event, part of what brought the incident to mind in the first place was this:

Quote
I prefer organic leadership, which consists of putting the best people in charge and having a cultural shared values system to do the rest

...which I have taken to be central to this project (these projects?).  Building and preserving that "shared values system," I mean.  I know you've tended this garden for a long time, and I'm grateful to be able to visit your back yard, though I doubt it seems that way.

As always, I think we differ far more in degree than in kind, and, as always, you find me lukewarm.  So be it.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 10:31:59 PM
It seems impossible to describe to the young, a civilized state in which personal freedom is not the be-all-and-end-all. I say personal freedom, because it differs substantially from actual freedom.

Freedom as such doesn't seem to matter one away or another; but civilizations work best when the people in them are cheerfully engaged participants the life of their civilization, and cheerfully engaged can't really be beaten in.  I don't believe it can be bought with permissiveness, either. 

Quote
When one is competently led, by a competent leader, many arduous stresses are removed from daily life.
One no longer has to have opinions about absolutely everything, or need to decide what to go along with, or not.
One's path is clear, meaning one may go along that path, or elope to be personally responsible for one's survival, rather than have the state be responsible, in return for services-rendered.

There is a great deal of freedom inherent in the old style of strong leadership over a nation. And a great deal of dignity, which is something most moderns don't even know the meaning of, since it is entirely missing at this point.

There is something puzzling about a society where a young woman is more "empowered" by being in porn  than by attending one of the finest universities in the country (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-duke-porn-star-belle-knox-20140313,0,6589210.story#axzz2vuZaPXfN).  Liberalism creates this bizarre counter-universe where everything is permitted, so long as you think the things you're allowed to think.  On the one hand, near total "freedom" in a purely mechanistic sense, on the other, a society that is profoundly totalitarian at a social/psychological/spiritual level.  But you're free, and crazy to think otherwise.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 13, 2014, 10:51:11 PM
Freedom is a state of not wondering-if-you're/demanding-to-be free.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 13, 2014, 10:56:36 PM
Freedom is a state of not wondering-if-you're/demanding-to-be free.

What is it if you're in a state of not-caring-if-you're free? 
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 13, 2014, 11:02:59 PM
Why, that's freedom!
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 14, 2014, 03:22:27 AM
Thus it's easy to miss a happy coexistence between aristocracy and democracy and view the two as being opposed, despite the wealth of historical examples demonstrating otherwise.

Democracy leads to a society built on institutions which cater to the masses desires. When the masses are given free reign, they always gravitate towards endless pleasure with no deep meaning, and so we get a society full of fast food restaurants, entertaining gadgets like Iphones and television, slabs of concrete, and the lives of popular culture. The minority of people, the intelligent, who seek variation, and rich wonders of the mind and earth, are overtaken by the outburst of the average, left without a voice, culture dies. Capitalism thrives so well on democracy because its goal is to sell as much as possible, and what sells well is what appeals to base desires.


There is something puzzling about a society where a young woman is more "empowered" by being in porn  than by attending one of the finest universities in the country (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-duke-porn-star-belle-knox-20140313,0,6589210.story#axzz2vuZaPXfN).  Liberalism creates this bizarre counter-universe where everything is permitted, so long as you think the things you're allowed to think.  On the one hand, near total "freedom" in a purely mechanistic sense, on the other, a society that is profoundly totalitarian at a social/psychological/spiritual level.  But you're free, and crazy to think otherwise.
.

Anyone intelligent would rather choose shooting scenes where you fuck for money, than attending an institution which gives you institutional 'truths'. The only thing worse than university today would be STD's, but on a clean set, the air compared to university is like breathing in the Himalayans.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 05:08:08 AM
Democracy leads to a society built on institutions which cater to the masses desires. When the masses are given free reign, they always gravitate towards endless pleasure with no deep meaning, and so we get a society full of fast food restaurants...

This is true, but there are also false elites. Take a long hard look at what's coming out of Silicon Valley today. Some guy invents ButtSwapr, an application for finding sodomy in public restrooms, and gets offered $100m in funding. There's broken brains there because these people while putatively "smart" are incapable of any depth of thinking. It makes it doubly dangerous when they start launching, a la Bill Gates, on Soviet style social engineering experiments.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 14, 2014, 06:38:59 AM
Democracy leads to a society built on institutions which cater to the masses desires. When the masses are given free reign, they always gravitate towards endless pleasure with no deep meaning, and so we get a society full of fast food restaurants...

This is true, but there are also false elites. Take a long hard look at what's coming out of Silicon Valley today. Some guy invents ButtSwapr, an application for finding sodomy in public restrooms, and gets offered $100m in funding. There's broken brains there because these people while putatively "smart" are incapable of any depth of thinking. It makes it doubly dangerous when they start launching, a la Bill Gates, on Soviet style social engineering experiments.

Well, once you've delegitimized every natural frame of reference for judging the worth of hairless apes, how do you determine what constitutes the elite?  Why, you check and see how much cash they can stack. 

What fascinates me is the ambiguous cultural space so many of these tech and finance tycoons are made to occupy.  We have to somehow freight all the cash stacking with drama and meaning, so these guys are always either saviors or demons, moneyed Messiahs or Bond supervillains.  It speaks, I suspect, to a society of dependency and excuse making.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Time Curator 23 on March 14, 2014, 07:11:51 AM
Those who claim to be against both the far left and far right are suspicious - what are they for? The middling left-global-capitalist consensus? Better to be even a communist!

Respectfully, I disagree.

There is nothing at all dubious about opposing lies, and so if lies are found in both the left and right ideologies, then a truthful mind just so happens to oppose both.

Politics is not about picking a team, but about picking a goal, and that goal had better not be based on lies.

In fact, Prozak did exactly this, back when he had balls of steel, err, I mean, more creative and productive thinking than the dead-end New Right crowdism of late:

http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/politics/

COME ON YOU FUCKING HESSIANS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAAkerF32QQ

ANUS 10 years ago: serious effort at solving problems by redirecting society toward traditional ("Platonic") commonweal

ANUS now: smug posing and useless opining with Social Darwinist sentiments like "kill the poor" (a far cry from and in a sense the opposite of the genuine Eugenics homo sapiens really needs), then crying "hoomanist!!1" or "lybirall!!1" if someone points the stupidity out
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 14, 2014, 07:39:35 AM
Thus it's easy to miss a happy coexistence between aristocracy and democracy and view the two as being opposed, despite the wealth of historical examples demonstrating otherwise.

Democracy leads to a society built on institutions which cater to the masses desires. When the masses are given free reign, they always gravitate towards endless pleasure with no deep meaning, and so we get a society full of fast food restaurants, entertaining gadgets like Iphones and television, slabs of concrete, and the lives of popular culture. The minority of people, the intelligent, who seek variation, and rich wonders of the mind and earth, are overtaken by the outburst of the average, left without a voice, culture dies. Capitalism thrives so well on democracy because its goal is to sell as much as possible, and what sells well is what appeals to base desires.


There is something puzzling about a society where a young woman is more "empowered" by being in porn  than by attending one of the finest universities in the country (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-duke-porn-star-belle-knox-20140313,0,6589210.story#axzz2vuZaPXfN).  Liberalism creates this bizarre counter-universe where everything is permitted, so long as you think the things you're allowed to think.  On the one hand, near total "freedom" in a purely mechanistic sense, on the other, a society that is profoundly totalitarian at a social/psychological/spiritual level.  But you're free, and crazy to think otherwise.
.

Anyone intelligent would rather choose shooting scenes where you fuck for money, than attending an institution which gives you institutional 'truths'. The only thing worse than university today would be STD's, but on a clean set, the air compared to university is like breathing in the Himalayans.

Is it democracy that does this or the vast wealth brought in to a civilization by an Empire? Further, it's important to recognize we are in the rationalist period at this juncture in arc of literate civilization. Check the core presuppositions in the cultural narratives of our time and get back to me if you still think a method of governing is responsible.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 07:46:36 AM
On leadership:

Quote
Gallup has found that one of the most important decisions companies make is simply whom they name manager. Yet our analysis suggests that they usually get it wrong. In fact, Gallup finds that companies fail to choose the candidate with the right talent for the job 82% of the time.

Bad managers cost businesses billions of dollars each year, and having too many of them can bring down a company. The only defense against this massive problem is a good offense, because when companies get these decisions wrong, nothing fixes it. Businesses that get it right, however, and hire managers based on talent will thrive and gain a significant competitive advantage.

http://blogs.hbr.org/2014/03/why-good-managers-are-so-rare/
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 14, 2014, 07:51:42 AM
Society works when everyone tends his own garden and straightens his own back yard, and it fails when it fills up with people ready to root around in other folks' yards.

Experience suggests otherwise -- you either have strong leadership, or your civilization falls apart. You either have cultural values, or you have anarchy. You seem to prefer the shopping mall model which, not surprisingly, is what you have.

History suggests a cycle: Monarchy->Aristocracy->Democracy-->back again to Monarchy.

If you take it in the literal sense you're talking about systematic change. In America's history we've had:

Washington-Whigs-Jackson movement

Lincoln - Republican - Progressive movement

FDR- New Deal Dems. - Boomer counter culture movement.

 Notice that America has seen not one drop of anarchy, bloody revolution or systematic change while going through this cycle? You want to see the value of the American democracy? It's right there in the stability during the ebb and flow of human behavior. It has glaring flaws, but that's to be expected from a functional and organic system.

---

I think you are correct in the suggestion that we need a strong leader to sidestep the political stalemates that prevent the country from adapting to reality, but I don't see any reason to trash the system along with it. So far, in American history, we've gotten that strong leader. I say, let it run it's course.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Angel of Disease on March 14, 2014, 08:44:34 AM
The ANUS.com article was one of the most sane things that I've read in a while. Thanks for sharing.

It trumps the discussion taking place here.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 12:24:31 PM
It's right there in the stability during the ebb and flow of human behavior.

Imagine you were a heroin addict. Assuming that heroin addiction is bad, would stability be a good thing for an addict to have?

No -- they'd be stable in their addiction. So it is with democracy, the death of a thousand cuts.

The ANUS article still applies. Conservatism is a principle that transcends our mainstream politics. No matter how you argue it, leftism is crazy-retarded. Absolutely zero (0) "third way" movements have avoided this.

The only sensible option is a non-State, e.g. a monarchy plus strong ethnic-cultural identity.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 14, 2014, 12:48:21 PM
It's right there in the stability during the ebb and flow of human behavior.

Imagine you were a heroin addict. Assuming that heroin addiction is bad, would stability be a good thing for an addict to have?

No -- they'd be stable in their addiction. So it is with democracy, the death of a thousand cuts.

The ANUS article still applies. Conservatism is a principle that transcends our mainstream politics. No matter how you argue it, leftism is crazy-retarded. Absolutely zero (0) "third way" movements have avoided this.

The only sensible option is a non-State, e.g. a monarchy plus strong ethnic-cultural identity.

I'd like you to consider what stable means in context of the rest of my post. As American history has shown, the heroin addiction has been cured before.  To be clear: I'm not arguing for liberalism, I'm arguing conservatism: preserving what works by making a case for the American Democracy.
 
Much respect to you brother but there are views that are veering into utopianism:

Spengler pointed out that all cultures are subject to diminishing returns. At some point everything that can be said, will be said and the people therein tend to seek out external sources. This is one human impulse which has to be ignored in order to have an isolated cultural idenity. Further, you have to ignore human migration, the impact of border expansion, the constitution of peoples after imperial states. Ethnic identities are in constant flux, though particular constitutions will arise and hold ground for some time. In short: entropy.

Monarchy isn't bad, though we only need what it entails at a specific juncture. Same with Aristocracy and same with Populism.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 14, 2014, 01:57:50 PM
In short, entropy.

We must resist entropy.

We've now done the democracy experiment, again, and it's time to try something that works.

Utopianism? How about trying to keep patching a leaky boat?
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: TableauxParisiens on March 14, 2014, 07:27:38 PM
History suggests a cycle: Monarchy->Aristocracy->Democracy-->back again to Monarchy.
You're listing some forms from the Iron Age, but where are hunter gatherer style societies? It would seem that if we obliterate the majority of life and resources (more realistic prediction than curbing), survivors will reject the past Iron Age altogether, and the few that remain will fend in units within the scarcity that will be a charred husk of planet earth. In this scenario, monarchy won't be powerful enough for rationed survival.

Also, how can monarchy be a good idea, ever? It's a game of chance of who becomes a monarch, or in other cases, the person who becomes monarch is the person who was the most ruthless, who maimed, or defrauded to get into that position of power.

You could turn a monarch into Plato's republic, where there are challenges and tests to get there, but how can you be so sure the person who made these wasn't corrupt themselves? Moreover, why should one person determine the overall morality of all? Isn't it better to have a society sculpted from the ground by artists and thinkers, a society based on an aristocracy of the spirit? Monarchy is just an ancient form of fascism.

Again, I'll return to Nietzsche. He saw our current time as nihilism, a small amount of overmen would walk the earth armed with knowledge, while the rest become normalized, in a time without culture. However, he believed we can still come upon a great society in the future. A great time was the Renaissance, laws were free, and society built itself on the values of overmen. The society itself had values that made its architecture, media, art, food, and environment all vast. I think the Renaissance was going towards a healthy society, but then Luther, and the Industrial/French revolution, ruined it.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 14, 2014, 09:55:21 PM
We must resist entropy.

You propose that we resist a mechanism that is hardwired into the nature of reality?
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 14, 2014, 10:13:00 PM
Too smart by half.
Good question.
Nature is subject to entropy.
Humans may stop the clock for a while, under certain conditions. That's part of being human.
And being temporary is also part of being human.

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Dylar on March 14, 2014, 10:31:09 PM
We must resist entropy.

You propose that we resist a mechanism that is hardwired into the nature of reality?

I'll admit, I had the same reaction.

(http://s18.postimg.org/5r57olkpl/odir.jpg)
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 15, 2014, 05:32:26 AM
We must resist entropy.

You propose that we resist a mechanism that is hardwired into the nature of reality?

Yes, of course. Gravity is hardwired into reality, and we resist that daily. Reality is deterministic based on choice, but its constants are forces to be displaced. Consider a boat on water: displacement of that water with air makes it float.

Dare I resist the mechanism of water's weight which is hardwired into the nature of reality?

Yes, of course.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: aquarius on March 15, 2014, 04:12:21 PM
The way I see it, life is just a big old game of curling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM5mFH3_Qhs) . You have to move with things in a general direction, you have a general desired destination and the potential to achieve it with some tools that help to influence potential along the way. Also, there's the element of chance (very exciting!). Of course, sometimes we just aren't going to win. Nothing wrong with that though (as though there's always tomorrow). And throwing the game just spoils it for the opponent (who is just like you, only the opposite).

Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 17, 2014, 08:42:53 AM
We must resist entropy.

You propose that we resist a mechanism that is hardwired into the nature of reality?

Yes, of course. Gravity is hardwired into reality, and we resist that daily. Reality is deterministic based on choice, but its constants are forces to be displaced. Consider a boat on water: displacement of that water with air makes it float.

Dare I resist the mechanism of water's weight which is hardwired into the nature of reality?

Yes, of course.

I might argue that looking outward for cultural reinvigoration is an attempt to counter cultural entropy because the introduction of another high energy resource into a system is the only mechanism which addresses energy lost.

No different than generating lift to achieve flight.

If you have a method for resisting entropy which doesn't involve the introduction of an external source of high energy into the system to achieve the same result, I'd love to hear it.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: death metal black metal on March 18, 2014, 09:16:26 AM
What is the closed system, the individual or the culture? I say the individual.

Culture renews itself. It requires strong leadership or it converges on a default.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 18, 2014, 09:35:16 AM
I'm not entirely convinced in the reality of closed systems. That seems to be expressive of the limits of logical reasoning. Independence is never absolute. If we are looking at smaller systems, the degree to which they are able to conserve forms is proportional to their complexity - which is proportional to the amount of energy flowing through that system. To tie that into the real world as an example, aboriginal Australians have maintained their culture for many thousands of years, however, their social organization is non-complex, thus it is immune from the entropy rape which topples complex literate civilizations.

I would argue that populations rejuvenate themselves and interject essences of themselves into cultural forms.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Time Curator 23 on March 22, 2014, 04:52:38 PM
There is nothing stable about democracy. Democracy is only ever a hoodwinking of the masses by an oligarchy (most often, though not always, a plutarchy).

Even more, there has never even been an actual democacy. It is merely a chimera. The same goes for a free market. Doesn't exist.

We have to stop quibbling over the formalisms and get to the substance. The Nazis talked a good game early on, but ended up being just another form of destructive demagoguery.

Who cares if one lives in a monarchy or republic? The only relevant question is: what is the society accomplishing?
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 23, 2014, 09:29:51 AM
There is nothing stable about democracy. Democracy is only ever a hoodwinking of the masses by an oligarchy (most often, though not always, a plutarchy).

Democracy is human and therefore it's subject to the faults and failures of humanity. As pointing out and supported by historical events, the American system has overturned stalemates in the degenerated aristocracy multiple times now. Let's take this out of hyperbole and ground it in historical fact, yes?

Quote
Even more, there has never even been an actual democacy. It is merely a chimera. The same goes for a free market. Doesn't exist.

By the same accord, there's never been actual communism. It's quite dangerous to deny the real existence of something because the details don't match the theory or the abstraction.
 
Quote



Who cares if one lives in a monarchy or republic? The only relevant question is: what is the society accomplishing?

There are no shortage of examples throughout history where the ruling elite becomes wholly detached from reality. The advantage of the American democracy is that it can, and has been demonstrated to show that it has, removed the ineffective degenerative elite without the need for violent revolution. Again, it offers stability through the natural cycles of anacyclosis described in Plato's Republic.

Whatever human populations accomplish is always driven by whatever their culture thinks is important. The dichotomy you present is too narrow to be any usem
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Time Curator 23 on March 23, 2014, 02:25:08 PM
Hmm. Well, here's how I see it.

First off, the American ideal is not democracy, it's a constitutional representative republic, finding its fullest and best to date design and expression in the American School of economics. This is a highly intelligent, nuanced, idealistic-yet-realistic view. It is most definitely not democratic, at all. If you want to talk "historical fact", then name me ONE democracy in ALL of history. You can not find one. They don't exist. Democracy is always a lie, a con, a swindle, a manipulating the masses into thinking they have self-rule.

Second, there's nothing dangerous about denying democracy. It's called sanity. If someone says "the aliens are coming to kill us" yet there is ZERO evidence for their claim, I deny it. It's a healthy thing to do. The same goes for "democracy", "libertarianism", "communism", etc. -- all synthetic ideas and demagoguery designed to get people to cut their own throats.

Third, there is most definitely blood on the sword of America. The Revolutionary War, the Civil War...

Fourth, Plato himself forthrightly speaks out against democracy. He states: "These will be some of the features of democracy... it will be, in all likelihood, an agreeable, lawless, parti-colored society, dealing with all alike on a footing of equality, whether they be really equal or not."
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: crow on March 23, 2014, 02:36:09 PM
Comment of the week. Maybe prizes should be handed out. Symbolic ones, anyway.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 23, 2014, 03:19:02 PM
Hmm. Well, here's how I see it.

First off, the American ideal is not democracy, it's a constitutional representative republic, finding its fullest and best to date design and expression in the American School of economics. This is a highly intelligent, nuanced, idealistic-yet-realistic view. It is most definitely not democratic, at all. If you want to talk "historical fact", then name me ONE democracy in ALL of history. You can not find one. They don't exist. Democracy is always a lie, a con, a swindle, a manipulating the masses into thinking they have self-rule.
Quote

Setting aside contemporary examples, Athens.

Quote
Second, there's nothing dangerous about denying democracy. It's called sanity. If someone says "the aliens are coming to kill us" yet there is ZERO evidence for their claim, I deny it. It's a healthy thing to do. The same goes for "democracy", "libertarianism", "communism", etc. -- all synthetic ideas and demagoguery designed to get people to cut their own throats.

You misunderstood my point. The abstraction of "Democracy" is just that, an abstraction: a mental model used to understand reality, solve problems and communicate to others. The danger is when we start applying this rigid model to reality and dismiss real occurances on the basis that these occurrences did not fit the theory therefore THEY are false. The world doesn't need another go at communism but there are no shortages of the insistence that communism ought to be given a shot because it was never tried.

Quote
Third, there is most definitely blood on the sword of America. The Revolutionary War, the Civil War...

I know it's called the American Revolution, but it was a war for secession, big difference. The Civil War was of the same kind. Please note the difference between secession and Revolution.


Quote
Fourth, Plato himself forthrightly speaks out against democracy. He states: "These will be some of the features of democracy... it will be, in all likelihood, an agreeable, lawless, parti-colored society, dealing with all alike on a footing of equality, whether they be really equal or not."

Notice how I never said any of these things? Plato described, in detail, the cycles of anacyclosis which i think originates in Plutarch. Regardless, I know Plato didnt think favorably of democracy and I never mentioned otherwise.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 23, 2014, 04:22:42 PM
On second thought, don't respond. Nothing constructive is being accomplished by this or any of my other contributions. I'll go back to lurking this section as the differences in perspectives between myself and the rest are far too different.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Time Curator 23 on March 23, 2014, 06:03:33 PM
On second thought, don't respond. Nothing constructive is being accomplished by this or any of my other contributions. I'll go back to lurking this section as the differences in perspectives between myself and the rest are far too different.

Giving up already?

Vigilance, the purpose of this discussion board is not to have a "we all agree with one another so let's pat each other on the ass" circle jerk.

We come to genuine consensus and purposeful agreement by contrasting these different perspectives. That is both the beauty and function of a dialogue.

It's like a cooperative investigation into the nature of reality. I could very well be mistaken and misinformed on certain things. I'm here to learn.

Now then, I think we can classify the Civil War as a revolution in that it was a revolution against the Southern Slave Owner class and against the British and French who supported them. (Of course, the delusion is that the North's victory meant total freedom, when in reality they never freed themselves from the Northern Wages Slave Owner class.) Remember, secession, though usually unfavorable, is nothing more than a tactic or strategy or means of and end: revolution. The South's "revolution" was really nothing but a very late counter-revolution to 1776. Another way of seeing this in the "big picture" is that there are different factions of oligarchs who engage in internecine conflict; it's definitely not as simple as "the masses versus the elites" or "the poor versus the rich". I'm sure we agree there.

Regarding Athens being a democracy, this is exactly what I was getting at: it was a plutocracy in which the masses were fooled into believing it was a democracy. In other words, there is only ever the appearance of democracy in formalities, but even this never lasts long, and rarely produces substantive improvements in the lives of the many. Most importantly, we must remember this is the same society which murdered Socrates. (Unrelated but relevant, we must remember the Weimar Republic had democratic features and elections with popular votes, and even though Hitler lost the election in public, behind closed doors in private it was decided he would be appointed.)

Regarding Plato, I'm saying that democracy cannot be some force outside the cycle which makes it less- or non-violent, precisely because democracy is inside of and a part of that very cycle.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: NHA on March 24, 2014, 12:01:48 AM
Quote
Vigilance, the purpose of this discussion board is not to have a "we all agree with one another so let's pat each other on the ass" circle jerk.

We come to genuine consensus and purposeful agreement by contrasting these different perspectives. That is both the beauty and function of a dialogue.

Fantasy.
Title: Re: Deleted post.
Post by: Vigilance on March 24, 2014, 08:09:25 AM
On second thought, don't respond. Nothing constructive is being accomplished by this or any of my other contributions. I'll go back to lurking this section as the differences in perspectives between myself and the rest are far too different.

Giving up already?

Vigilance, the purpose of this discussion board is not to have a "we all agree with one another so let's pat each other on the ass" circle jerk.

We come to genuine consensus and purposeful agreement by contrasting these different perspectives. That is both the beauty and function of a dialogue.

It's like a cooperative investigation into the nature of reality. I could very well be mistaken and misinformed on certain things. I'm here to learn.

Now then, I think we can classify the Civil War as a revolution in that it was a revolution against the Southern Slave Owner class and against the British and French who supported them. (Of course, the delusion is that the North's victory meant total freedom, when in reality they never freed themselves from the Northern Wages Slave Owner class.) Remember, secession, though usually unfavorable, is nothing more than a tactic or strategy or means of and end: revolution. The South's "revolution" was really nothing but a very late counter-revolution to 1776. Another way of seeing this in the "big picture" is that there are different factions of oligarchs who engage in internecine conflict; it's definitely not as simple as "the masses versus the elites" or "the poor versus the rich". I'm sure we agree there.

Regarding Athens being a democracy, this is exactly what I was getting at: it was a plutocracy in which the masses were fooled into believing it was a democracy. In other words, there is only ever the appearance of democracy in formalities, but even this never lasts long, and rarely produces substantive improvements in the lives of the many. Most importantly, we must remember this is the same society which murdered Socrates. (Unrelated but relevant, we must remember the Weimar Republic had democratic features and elections with popular votes, and even though Hitler lost the election in public, behind closed doors in private it was decided he would be appointed.)

Regarding Plato, I'm saying that democracy cannot be some force outside the cycle which makes it less- or non-violent, precisely because democracy is inside of and a part of that very cycle.

I say I'll stop but then I walk into adult day care with a lot of down time and here I an. You've cut down on the polemics so I guess I'll respond.

Re: Secession

I'd first like to know what you understand Revolution and secession to be, before we can continue.

Re: Athens.

What you describe is just one of the ways democracy functions in the real world. In fact, small groups of powerful men making decisions is the way every form of government operates. On paper, I'd agree with you, but I prefer to avoid the drafting board.

Re:Cycles

I see, I wish you had just said that. I don't know that we'll see eye to eye on it, but I feel that the historical examples of Anacyclosis I listed in this thread are sufficient to prove that it occurs within our Democratic System. For clarifies sake, nonviolence is not the virtue of Democracy, the virtue is in the ability to remove inept, ineffectual leadership in a relatively stable way compared to autocratic forms of government where doing the same is extremely disruptive to the entire society.