100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Metal => Topic started by: Dionysius on April 24, 2007, 10:48:16 PM

Title: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on April 24, 2007, 10:48:16 PM
From the official Summoning website:

Quote
25.04.2007
Yesterday i (Protector) wrote an email to youtube in order to tell them to remove certain videos showing nazi-propaganda and using Summoning music for it. This finally brought me to the decision to recapitulate all the statements i know that show clearly that the music of summoning as well as any kind rock or metal music are in contradiction to such ideologies.

So for now and for the future. any person can use Summoning music for videos as long as they are not used for political propaganda and specially not for nazi-propaganda.

Here are the reasons why i never will accept such ideologies in connection to summoning.
Political Statements (http://www.summoning.info/Stuff/PoliticalStatements.html)


http://www.summoning.info/
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Olethros on April 24, 2007, 11:44:57 PM
Quote
all those varg vikernes ideology copy-cats thinking that a nation can only survive if it is clean and pure shall take a short look at the ottoman empire that was an extreme multi-cultural nation and lasted 624 years (thats 52 times longer than the third reich:-)


I would have laughed at the above statement but being Greek myself, I can only feel insulted. The Ottoman Empire "an extreme multicultural nation"? Personally I can't use the worlds "culture" and "Ottoman" on the same sentence. Sure, the Turks conquered a lot of different nations but this fact doesn't make the empire "multicultural". Not to mention the oxymoron of the phrase "multicultural nation". Since he mentions "Jannisary" music on another paragraph he should spend some time in order to learn what Jannisaries were: Christian youth from the conquered christian nations that were taken by force at a young age from their families, converted to muslims and brainwashed to become the fiercest warriors of the Ottoman army, eventually becoming slayers of their own people. Quite some cultural achievement I guess. I guess the balkan nations were such ungrateful bastards to revolt constantly against such a paradise of an empire. I'm wondering if his opinions concerning the Ottoman Empire would have been the same if the Turks had managed to conquer Vienna back in 1683.

And what does he have to say about the prominently Graeco-Roman Byzantine Empire which lasted for more than a thousand years, being in constant struggle against Persians, Arabs, Crusaders and Turks?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on April 25, 2007, 12:50:30 AM
The problem i have with that article is he thinks blues was the only music that influenced rock, there were other heavy folk influences that would have been European and to some degree, similar to Germanic folk music. Where the Germanic tribes stretch over Germany, France, Scandinavia and England, Ireland and Scotland if you follow the Celts migration. Thats a lot of folk music that can be linked to the Germanic tribes. To say it has no Germanic roots is silly.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Vajra on April 25, 2007, 01:00:47 AM
This should help increase sales
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on April 25, 2007, 01:11:52 AM
It's easier to "stand against fascism" in a country that's still as well preserved as Austria is. I've been there in 1999 or 2000 and I don't remember seeing much strangers living there, if any (although I'm sure Vienna has some kind of suburbs too).

I don't know if it will help better sales, it looks like a move to avoid "problems", more than anything else.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on April 25, 2007, 02:03:44 AM
Quote
nazis leaders dont care about the people of their folk, they just care for symbols like flags and their personal advantages. a real nazi leader does not mind if 1000 germans die on battlefield as long as the flag does not get damaged and the leaders can live in luxury. while thousands of people fought in a war freezing and with hardly anythign to eat, hitler and his friends lived in luxury until the end.


Is western (judeo-christian) society any better? Right now people are losing their cultural and ethnic identities because our "leaders" are too busy making dirty deals with large corporations. I'd rather have a leader who only cares about our flag (which represents what a people stand for) than leaders who only care about what makes the most money (what we have right now in Europe)


Quote
i often experience that people think if they are against stalin they have to love hitler. but two wrongs dont make a right, and and idiot fighting against another idiot does not turn this idiot to a wise man. stalin was fascistic like hitler. if you dont like stalin then it is absurd to like hitler.


That's correct: "an idiot fighting against another idiot does not turn this idiot into a wise man" Protector could have just said "we're a-political, think for yourselves, now fuck off" but he proceeds to say too much to get his point across, he leaves too many loose ends and turns their "political statement" into a personal rant. I wonder why he feels the need to explain this so much? Their music never struck me as being even remotely fascist or racist (as far as fairytales aren't fascist and racist already of course)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on April 25, 2007, 02:37:47 AM
Quote from: link=board=metal_news;num=1177490896;start=0#5 date=04/25/07 at 05:03:44


nazis leaders dont care about the people of their folk, they just care for symbols like flags and their personal advantages. a real nazi leader does not mind if 1000 germans die on battlefield as long as the flag does not get damaged and the leaders can live in luxury. while thousands of people fought in a war freezing and with hardly anythign to eat, hitler and his friends lived in luxury until the end.


Although i am far from a Nazi supporter this simple is not true. Its common sense to keep generals and other important figures from harms way, other wise you run great risk of losing them, and as such losing the war, and going hungry or sleeping on a cold bed isn't going to help your soldiers at all. Secondly they do care about their people, which is why they don't allow "inferior" races to breed with them, why they follow eugenics (in terms that a strong person produces strong sons as opposed to an unscientific thought that Jews and the like make inferior children). Everything they did was for their people, the only problem was if you were not one of their people.




Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: KIRK JOHNSON on April 25, 2007, 02:47:10 AM
This was the biggest load of crap ever written. Ever.
I'll make a comment on each sentence when i'll have time.But untill then, some small facts:
Also, persians are white, indo-europeans.
Blues is a ripoff of european folklore.
Guitar appeared in the hispanic peninsula. The spaniards are black, no ? >:(
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Vajra on April 25, 2007, 02:49:47 AM
Quote
It's easier to "stand against fascism" in a country that's still as well preserved as Austria is. I've been there in 1999 or 2000 and I don't remember seeing much strangers living there, if any (although I'm sure Vienna has some kind of suburbs too).

I don't know if it will help better sales, it looks like a move to avoid "problems", more than anything else.


Summoning (or Napalm Records) have created a problem by publically getting upset over some videos they found on JewTube. Who else cared, or attriuted any irresponsibility or whatever to the band?

The band have interpreted Tolkein's works their way, and somebody else has interpreted/used Summoning's music their way. Big deal. The funniest thing is having listened to Oath Bound this morning, and then reading the band themselves denying any white roots.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on April 25, 2007, 03:21:23 AM
If they don't feature 50 Cent on their next album I'll alert the Anti-Defamation League.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on April 25, 2007, 06:36:11 AM
Quote
What a passive, effeminate human being.  While I can't blame him for thinking NSism is a joke, he makes a big deal over some really petty issue, writes a stupid little manifesto exclaiming his effeminate outlook on life, and then is totally clueless on what to believe.  If he supports "total" "freedom" on speech and thought, then why can't the nazis use his music freely?


Maybe he was scared to become known as a NZBM band cos that would affect what people thought of his music while listening? Also being associated with a genre of music as dumb as NZBM does nothing for your artistic credentials.

Either way that diatribe was rambling and moronic, as others have noted.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: KIRK JOHNSON on April 25, 2007, 07:09:42 AM
Quote
If they don't feature 50 Cent on their next album I'll alert the Anti-Defamation League.

Nicely put  ;D
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 25, 2007, 08:07:30 AM
Quote

Maybe he was scared to become known as a NZBM band cos that would affect what people thought of his music while listening? Also being associated with a genre of music as dumb as NZBM does nothing for your artistic credentials.

Either way that diatribe was rambling and moronic, as others have noted.


1. It's a fucking youtube video about nazis doing nazi things.  The only people who care about it are nazis and anti-fa homos (who think that everything else is nazi anyways).

2. If someone is stupid enough to associate music with nazism because nazis used it in a video, then that person isn't worth catering to.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on April 25, 2007, 01:25:48 PM
Quote
This should help increase sales


That seems to be the motivation. Did this guy make it out of high school?

Quote
-      metal music has no white roots. first there was blues music done by black people, then rock developed from blues, finally metal developed from rock music. metal has no germanic roots at all. any metal fan thinking that his music is an aryan one is simply wrong, and singing german does not remove all those black roots
-      apart from the black blues roots of metal music there are lots of other non aryan influences in metal music. the bass drum used in metal music derived from the bass drum used in jazz, which is originally the turkish bass drum "davul". cymbals of any kind have chinese roots and got also influenced in turkey. the same goes for tom toms.
-      but not only metal music has non aryan roots, the same goes for classical european music:       -      the oboe derived from the arabic "mizmar" (or "zurna" on turkish), which later became a shalm and finally the oboe as we know it.
-      the lute is nothing than the arabic "oud". not even the shape is changed.
-      the guitar is spanish as well as mauretanian.
-      the violin derived from the persian instrument ”rebab”
-      the complete percussion section in european orchestra music comes from the turkish millitary music of the ottoman empire called "Janissary" music.

-      i know a lot of lot of summoning fans and have friends from and contacts to people of different nationalities. i personally know and like people who are arabic, jewish, chinese, russian, people from latin america, blacks etc. and i never could see any difference between me and them. for me the personality counts and not the ethnicity and i prefer an arabic or israelic music fan 100 times more to an austrian with total different interests. i choose friends because of their personality not because of their ethnicity.
-      all of those nazis that use the fracture letters cause they think they are so nazi styled should know that those letters where forbidden 1941 by the NSDAP regime cause they found out that they have jewish roots and called them "schwabacher judenlettern".
-      slavonic people where not considered as aryan race by hitler, and all of those polish NSBM black metal bands who think he was just wrong and nazis love the polish people shall check the lyrics of the most famous german nazi rock band "landser" called "polakentango". polish people are pure scum for real german nazis.
-      all those varg vikernes ideology copy-cats thinking that a nation can only survive if it is clean and pure shall take a short look at the ottoman empire that was an extreme multi-cultural nation and lasted 624 years (thats 52 times longer than the third reich:-)
-      if you think you are an individualist or rebel because you like fascism then you are wrong. there is no space left for individualism in fascist regimes. this goes for nazi germany as well as ex soviet union. fascism means to follow orders if you are not a leader. you just have to be a working element in the huge fascist system - thinking for yourself is a disturbing element for this system.
-      nazis leaders dont care about the people of their folk, they just care for symbols like flags and their personal advantages. a real nazi leader does not mind if 1000 germans die on battlefield as long as the flag does not get damaged and the leaders can live in luxury. while thousands of people fought in a war freezing and with hardly anythign to eat, hitler and his friends lived in luxury until the end.
-      i often experience that people think if they are against stalin they have to love hitler. but two wrongs dont make a right, and and idiot fighting against another idiot does not turn this idiot to a wise man. stalin was fascistic like hitler. if you dont like stalin then it is absurd to like hitler.
-      i prefer to be proud about things i did or am responsible for, but i never ever could feel any pride for things i could not even decide. i can be proud about my music for example, but never that i was born in austria. i am of course happy to live in a country like austria instead of any poor countries, but i am definitely not proud about that. it seems for me as if nazis have nothing else to be proud of then the coincidence that they where born in their father-land.
-      i support total freedom in speech and thought, and even a nazi should be free to say whatever he thinks. for me forbidding special thoughts or opinons does not fit into a democratic society. forbidding opinions turns them to a taboo, what attracts most of the young metalheads very much. it makes them feel like real rebels to break those taboos. i want that those taboos never even appear.
-      there is nothing wrong if you only like european culture and don't like other ones; nobody can force anybody to like anything, but what i mean is that you can not escape foreign influences even if you listen to pure european music. and of course the european culture found its own way during the centuries and now has not much to do with the roots, but anyway it can not be denied that without those roots it would not exist. i personally don't like hip hop at all for example, but as it is so easy to turn off a radio or switch off a tv show i have no problems with it. i like being free to decide what i have to do, to like etc. and what not and dont want any dictator deciding for me what i have to do, to like etc. and what not..
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: ChapelOfTorment on April 25, 2007, 05:12:08 PM
I wonder if his diatribe was just a reaction to a perceived threat to record sales, or if he already held these convictions deeply before the whole video incident... Probably the former, as the whole thing seems a bit haphazard and roughshod.

I always liked Silenius's vocals more than Protector's.  ;)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Annihilaytorr on April 25, 2007, 05:22:37 PM
Wow, the hearts of many who venture here have been broken.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: kontinual on April 25, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
I thought this juxtaposition was funny:

Quote
metal music has no white roots


Hmm...that is pretty definitive...particularly for a band who has Wagner as a primary influence.  You would think they know their own musicality.

Quote
apart from the black blues roots of metal music there are lots of other non aryan influences in metal music


Wow.  In a nutshell, metal has roots in every culture on Earth except "white" culture, but somehow 90% of influential metal is played by white folks.  The wool is over all our eyes, indeed.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Heydrich on April 25, 2007, 07:27:34 PM
Reminds me of the spineless, snivelling behavior Darkthrone stooped to back when their "Aryan BM" references were questioned.
Either way, never gave a damn about this band anyway...  
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Draugdur on April 25, 2007, 10:34:24 PM
I completely agree with Olethros about the Ottoman empire, simply because I'm a Croat, and Croatians are one of the Balkan nations. Nobody knows better than us what an influence the turks had on us (namely destruction and slaughtering).

The only reason turks didn't manage to conquer Vienna was because of the Croats who were used as a cannon fodder by the Habsburg empire. If is weren't for us,  Austria would be a completely dfifferent country.

Protector is showing a common ignorance concernig the history of other nations, and he should be thankful on our account that he's still austrian, and not some brown asian with big mustaches.

Croatia was under the Austrian boot for nearly 400 years, and we were nothing more than the cannon fodder for them all that time. One of the reasons that Austria became advanced and rich country is because they had us to defend them, and they almost depleted all of our natural resources in the meantime.

Austria never provided Croatia with military support during the turkish invasion, because they were too busy being scared. Now, I'm forced to look at the ugly alien turkish faces that make the large amount of population in Bosnia and Herzegowina (namely muslims, or "Bosniaks" as they recently started calling themselves).

I apologize for wandering off the subject, but it was hard for me to read his statement. After being a slave for so long, the man should expect at least a thank you, instead he insults us all with by saying that we lived happily under the turks while we bled and died for them.

Thank you, Austria!
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Annihilaytorr on April 26, 2007, 08:31:03 AM
While I admit to being somewhat duped into thinking Summoning was more aware than the rest of the surviving Black Metal bands, I must say I never fell for them hook line and sinker like everyone else did.  

The again, maybe this is all an April fools joke...?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on April 26, 2007, 09:28:42 AM
If they're not Nazis how the hell did they stumble upon a Nazi video anyway ? Oh, and LOL @ browsing Youtube. They're maybe not Nazis but they're probably gay. Maybe they were looking for "extreme multi-cultural" porn.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dylar on April 26, 2007, 10:49:20 AM
There's a long history of people with blinkered attitudes (at all ends of the spectrum) whose creative efforts remain visionary.  Obviously, Summoning fall in that camp along with Varg, Euronymous, Wagner, Beethoven etc.  Art isn't philosophy, it is driven not by calculation, but by the unconscious.  I wouldn't worry overmuch about the public statements of artists for this reason.  Their work is what matters, not their social opinions.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Skjold on April 26, 2007, 05:02:02 PM
Quote
There's a long history of people with blinkered attitudes (at all ends of the spectrum) whose creative efforts remain visionary.  Obviously, Summoning fall in that camp along with Varg, Euronymous, Wagner, Beethoven etc.  Art isn't philosophy, it is driven not by calculation, but by the unconscious.  I wouldn't worry overmuch about the public statements of artists for this reason.  Their work is what matters, not their social opinions.



In this case I would say the opinion is more illinformed then a case of the guy being a dumbarse. Case in point: the reference to the Ottoman empire.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Annihilaytorr on April 26, 2007, 05:27:31 PM
While I will still dig Summoning, I just won't look at them the same way.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Olethros on April 26, 2007, 09:55:37 PM
Judging from his side project, Kreuzweg Ost, which is a martial industrial project and mostly inspired by the rise and fall of the 3rd Reich, I don't think Silenius (the other half of Summoning) shares the same "sensitivities". For sure using samples of WWII German propaganda broadcasts in your music is far from "politically correct". I found an interesting interview of him and Martin Shirenc of Hollenthon (who contributed to the first KWO album) here:

http://www.napalmrecords.com/kwofeature.html#kwofeature

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 12:28:46 AM
I did not mean to offend Greeks and i know that the Ottoman Empire behaved awful to other countries specially to Greece, and i am sorry for than and right now added those additional statements to my political statement file. I mentioned the Ottoman empire not because i adore it; actually they did nothing else than Hitler wanted to: trying to conquer the world. I just wanted to show that different races can existing in an empire for a long time. Actually turks are originally shamans that where rather blond but due to all the race blending in this empire they now have rather black hair. and btw i did not say that a nation can not survive if it is not multi-cultured.  

This also goes for the Jannisary music. not with a single word i said that they where cool. I rather compare them with the SS in the third reich. Some kind of wannabe elite troupe. i just mentioned it because it is the main influence for European percussion sections.

maybe there where other influences on metal music than blues, but blues was the main and the first one.  actually "Elivis Presley" learned singing in a gospel choir. so please tell me, what German roots does metal have?

i live in a part of Vienna where i have even more turks than Austirans. i know what i am talking about!

I can not remember when summoning ever did something in order to increase sales, we rather have often problem with napalm records trying to convince us to jump on some trends. Anyway, thats not an argument against my statements. if we would want to increase sales we would use a real drummer, give live concerts and use a real orchestra etc. So better focus on the facts not on assumptions.

During the war in Stalingrad the German soldiers did not have much more than 2 slices of bread each day, The leaders there where rather drinking champagne and having warm meals each day.

Guitars are Spanish as well as Mauritanian. Thats why even "Varg Vikingers" from "Burzum" called guitars "n-i-g-g-e-r instruments" and stopped using them.

Black hip hoppers are for me quite often Black versions of Nazis in many cases, not with a single word i sympathized with them. I even wrote that i don't like Hip Hop.

Sorry about any mistakes i made in that file. German is my native language so mistakes might happen in my text. But thats surely not an argument against the content of my statements.

Silenius agrees with my statements. For non German people the irony inside the music is surely not so obvious, but it is not a Nazi project; otherwise Martin from pungent stench would not have participated in it for sure. And btw people can also be against nazi regimes for other reasons than political correctness. for example during the third reich there were several of nazis resistance groups who rather had an extreme dangerous uncomfortable life than to give up their ideals. did they also do that just for "Political Correctness"? Again more facts less assumptions please.

I stumbled on the nazi vidoe because i like to get informed about people with different views, so i also want to be informed what nazis think. I wonder how anybody can blame me for taking a look at both sides before i make up my mind.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Michael_Gregor on April 27, 2007, 01:20:43 AM
Blues is overtly more Celtic than African. Only the roots OF METAL owe to this style of music. Are you seriously asking for proof how the core of your own band, Summoning is European?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 27, 2007, 02:26:42 AM
The guitar is a stringed instrument, of a type of which several have existed in Europe. I think until the Spanish retuned it, it was a different instrument.

The modern jazz drumkit was invented by German waltz bands.

Pentatonic music is common to European, Asian and Semitic cultures.

Calling rock "blues" is an overstatement, especially considering that blues could not exist without western musical theory.

I'm unclear on why a band would make an anti-Nazi statement that wasn't necessary to make, and open the can of worms. If they're afraid of the authorities, I can understand.

I am also curious as to why Austrians would want to become "not Austrian" through race mixing.

In addition to other questionable history, I would like to point out that the Ottoman empire collapsed from its own instability in part due to ethnic tensions.

Quote
We stand at the end of the Age of Ideology, which really was amazingly short. In historical terms - a blip. It dated formally from 1789 to 1991. You may argue that it started a few years earlier, but just leave it at that – the French Revolution to the collapse of the Soviet Empire in 1991. It was an aberration in human history. Future scholars will definitely deem it bizarre as well as deadly, not least because “reason” and “rationality” culminated in the Great European civil war from 1914 to 1945 that reached it’s apotheosis in the Holocaust and echoed in Srebrenica in the 1990s -whenever anyone tells me that today’s Europeans are weak and defenseless, I remind them that Europe is the continent that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing. And forget “Eurabia.” Europeans will not ‘go gently into that good night.’ They’ve simply enjoyed a golden age of peace under the American defense umbrella with Uncle Sam paying the bills. Now, the parties over, but they don’t want It to end. And, historically, when Europeans are sufficiently provoked, they react savagely. Europe’s also, by the way, the continent that exported more death and destruction than any other.

Back to the end of the Age of Ideology: In many ways its demise is a blessing, the end of this bizarre human fascination with a lunatic notion that one man or a small cabal could sit down and design a better system of social organization than the vast human collective had done organically over the centuries. If you think about America, the Anglo-America tradition of government, it wasn’t designed. We glibly reference the Magna Carta as the fountainhead, but, honestly, no one among our political ancestors sat down in the 12th,13th, or even 18th century, worked out a blueprint and declared, “we need to do exactly this, this and this.” We learned by doing, by trial and error, and for systems of government it appears to be the only method that results in a healthy state.

It really was an amazing achievement, the development of democracy as we know it, from which we all profited – eventually. It’s also a very long and sometimes painful process. The important thing to understand is that the English-speaking world’s evolution of democracy – a presidential or parliamentary system was not the work of a lone genius sketching it all out from scratch. There was no five-year plan, no 10-year plan. It’s too much to say that our system’s an accident, but it evolved over a millenium. And then you come to 1789, and humanity, much of humanity, falls for this trap of believing that an individual or a junta of intellectuals can design a social system that will work for all of humanity. And, of course, humanity always disappoints, whether it’s under Marxism or National Socialism or fascism – the humans disappoint the system. Hitler, at the end of the war, wanted apocalyptic destruction because he felt the German people didn’t deserve his great vision. What happened when people didn’t live up to Stalin’s vision? Or to Lenin’s before that? When you try to impose an ideology arrogantly designed by man upon humankind, you’re on the road to Auschwitz, or the Gulag, or Srebrenica, or the killing fields of Cambodia. - some j3wish website (http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/1930/documentid/3748/history/3,2359,2166,1930,3748)


There are many of us who recognize the historical truth and necessity of nationalism, but won't use that n-based epithet for African-American in conversation. Why: we are motivated by sheer realism and not hatred. We are not interested in the Nazi question, but we're also not interested in those who buy into the modern society ideology of humanism, multiculturalism, capitalism, democracy, mass media and other things that empower the crowd at the expense of the intelligent few.

It is odd to see Summoning adapt policies that would eventually lead to the elimination of its members.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 05:15:09 AM
Quote
Blues is overtly more Celtic than African. Only the roots OF METAL owe to this style of music. Are you seriously asking for proof how the core of your own band, Summoning is European?


i just said that without blues there would be no rock music and therefore no metal and therefor not summoning. so lets change my lines and say metal music is not pure white music, it is a music with multi-cultural roots. i did not say that metal music sounds still like blues i just said that it was the origin,and therefore no nazi black metal band should think they make pure white music because it definitely is not white. so what are actually the Celtic roots in Blues?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 05:35:08 AM
Quote
The guitar is a stringed instrument, of a type of which several have existed in Europe. I think until the Spanish retuned it, it was a different instrument.

The modern jazz drumkit was invented by German waltz bands.

Pentatonic music is common to European, Asian and Semitic cultures.

Calling rock "blues" is an overstatement, especially considering that blues could not exist without western musical theory.

I'm unclear on why a band would make an anti-Nazi statement that wasn't necessary to make, and open the can of worms. If they're afraid of the authorities, I can understand.

I am also curious as to why Austrians would want to become "not Austrian" through race mixing.

In addition to other questionable history, I would like to point out that the Ottoman empire collapsed from its own instability in part due to ethnic tensions.


There are many of us who recognize the historical truth and necessity of nationalism, but won't use that n-based epithet for African-American in conversation. Why: we are motivated by sheer realism and not hatred. We are not interested in the Nazi question, but we're also not interested in those who buy into the modern society ideology of humanism, multiculturalism, capitalism, democracy, mass media and other things that empower the crowd at the expense of the intelligent few.

It is odd to see Summoning adapt policies that would eventually lead to the elimination of its members.



i am talking about the normal traditional jazz that later heavily inspired the rock drum. and this jazz drum kit definitely uses the turkish bass drum called "davul". and before the guitar was used in european music they used the lute which is a pure arabic instrument btw (oud).

Sorry i did not understand why you mention pentatonic music. Can you please describe it more detailed to me.

Yes it is true that blues also had western influences. So like in the previous statement i would like to correct my lines and say that metal therefore is music with multic -cultural back ground, whereas the main aspect in its history are black blues and western classical music.

It is strange. when "Varg Vikingers" made his rassistic statements although is music was also not connected to politics, i did not hear many people from the black metal scene complain about it. You are right that the music of summoning was never so much connected to nazi ideologies; so why should we have any fear of authorities. why is it so hard to imagine for most in the forum that i have many friends from various countries and really really get pissed of about those neo nazi tendencies and therefore feel the strong desire to make my position clear. why is it only ok for non political bands to say nazi stuff, why not ok to say the opposite? is it also so hard to understand that i dont feel comfortable if people are using my music for spreading political ideas with my music? i guess many in this form who make music would not like if their music is used for j-e-w-i-s, islamic etc propaganda. whats wrong of having ideologies?

Actually most of our typical culture is also forain one adapted by austria. Viennese are so proud about their coffee, which actually came from turkey. and they love their "wiener schnitzel" which is acutally rather chinese. foraign influences dont make a cultur week nor do they destroy their identity. in the end they make it stronger. just see how powerfull metal music became because / despite the fact that it has multi cultural influences.

Yes it collapsed, but as i wrote it lasted 52 longer than the third reich.

And i never understand why many people always think in two-way decision (please excuse my enlish i dont know how to express better). as if you can only be a nazi or a capitalist. behind the third reich capitalism is the most shitty thing fore me. and i don't see nationalism as any opposition to capitalism. the problem about national socialism that their hate focuses on the most week groups that can defend less. this means the pour ones. they did fight capitalism as long as the capitalist was not a j-e-w. german capitalists had a fine life in the third reich. they took away the properties from the jews and finally lived in even more luxury. and during war a lot of huge concerns could very much money by selling weapons. the normal working guy did not have any benefits from it, in contray he had to die on battlefield in order to fulfill the insane world conquering fanaticism of hitler.







Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 05:36:30 AM
Unbelievable what cheesy irony and low humor i have to read here.
read carefully my statements then you see that i don't like hip hop at all.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 05:43:40 AM
Quote
That's racism against my culture!!!!!!  >:( :'(


it seems that i need to explain the word racism to you.
but no problem i can do this favor for you.
racism means to explain all aspects of the personality of a person by his race. i did not say that i dont like hip hope because it is done by black nor did i tell anything about your personality because of the race you told you belong to.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Michael_Gregor on April 27, 2007, 05:48:51 AM
Quote

i just said that without blues there would be no rock music and therefore no metal and therefor not summoning. so lets change my lines and say metal music is not pure white music, it is a music with multi-cultural roots. i did not say that metal music sounds still like blues i just said that it was the origin,and therefore no nazi black metal band should think they make pure white music because it definitely is not white. so what are actually the Celtic roots in Blues?


Scottish roots of 'Black music' (http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/roots.html)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on April 27, 2007, 05:50:52 AM
Rather than making corrections, why not erase the whole thing ? If you really want to care, you could just say that although it has come to your attention that people have used Summoning music as a soundtrack for a Nazi video, you do not share these beliefs. It would take two lines on your homepage, rather than a whole page. When you write a whole statement like that, people can only wonder why you need so much justification.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 06:32:21 AM
Quote

Scottish roots of 'Black music' (http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/roots.html)


i will take a detailed look at that page later when my mind is more fresh.
anyway rock music has black influences and changed the face of this music, no matter if it has celtic ones as well.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 06:38:21 AM
Quote
Rather than making corrections, why not erase the whole thing ? If you really want to care, you could just say that although it has come to your attention that people have used Summoning music as a soundtrack for a Nazi video, you do not share these beliefs. It would take two lines on your homepage, rather than a whole page. When you write a whole statement like that, people can only wonder why you need so much justification.


i never saw it as justification. did "varg vikernes" nazi statements ever sound to anyone as kind of "justification". i guess not.

i rather would feel like a coward if i would have removed the videos from youtube and did not have the balls to explain the reasons detailed. i talk about so much stuff not connected to music in interview. why is it not ok to talk about political things?

i received one day a letter from a black brasilian guy who asked me if i will replay him although he is black. one day a j-e-w-i-s-h summoning fan wrote me asking me if i hate him cause of his "race". i hate that, and dont want any fan feel uncomfortable writing me just cause of his "race".

and also i think it is a bad situation that the only official political statments in the black metal scene are the ones done by varg and that there are no alternatives.

so tell varg to remove his files and all people up uploded them. if they do i will remove them as well;-)

and it is clear for me that people tending to the nazi ideologies do their best to make me sound as a pure idiot. in this forum you can easily see that no matter what i do they find a reason why i am an idiot. for example one guy blamed me that i was searching for nazi infos on net. if i would not have ever done this surely some would have blamed me that i only deal with one side and dont take attentions to the opposite sides.
so if i just would write that i don't share my believes without any explanation, they would even more accuse me to work because of political correctness, because i can not even explain why i dont share those ideologies. but if you agree with them or not, you can see that i spent time with them and got infos due to my experiences and did not just repeat some lines i read in some antifa forums. isnt it cool to stand for an ideology, is being silent really better for you?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on April 27, 2007, 06:44:57 AM
Quote
Rather than making corrections, why not erase the whole thing ? If you really want to care, you could just say that although it has come to your attention that people have used Summoning music as a soundtrack for a Nazi video, you do not share these beliefs. It would take two lines on your homepage, rather than a whole page. When you write a whole statement like that, people can only wonder why you need so much justification.



This is what I was thinking too. Why bother explaining your personal ideas to a bunch of moronic neo-nazis and in the meantime confuse your fans? I wouldn't even have known that such videos existed if I wouldn't have read about them on the Summoning website. Do you feel that there has been an increase in racism in black metal? I think because of the NSBM trend it is easy to know which bands are into national-socialism and which ones aren't, and a lot of the better known bands which were once suspected of racism are not considered nazi bands anymore. There will always be people who misunderstand or misinterpret music, but they are only a minority. As demonstrated bringing up the issue of politics to this level only raises more issues. Please stop and let us focus on your music again, which by the way is excellent.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on April 27, 2007, 06:52:21 AM
Protector, you're free to say whatever you want on your website, but I think that this statement, in its current form, is a bad move and only brings confusion. As I said, I think it would be perfectly fine if Summoning just said on their homepage that they're non-political and do not share the views expressed in the videos that used their music on Youtube.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 27, 2007, 06:54:56 AM
Quote
It is strange. when "Varg Vikingers" made his rassistic statements although is music was also not connected to politics, i did not hear many people from the black metal scene complain about it. You are right that the music of summoning was never so much connected to nazi ideologies; so why should we have any fear of authorities. why is it so hard to imagine for most in the forum that i have many friends from various countries and really really get pissed of about those neo nazi tendencies and therefore feel the strong desire to make my position clear. why is it only ok for non political bands to say nazi stuff, why not ok to say the opposite? is it also so hard to understand that i dont feel comfortable if people are using my music for spreading political ideas with my music? i guess many in this form who make music would not like if their music is used for j-e-w-i-s, islamic etc propaganda. whats wrong of having ideologies?


I think a lot of it is that people in BM find politically correct (regardless of the validity) beliefs subversive, thus they're more likely to attack your statements rather than Varg's.  Nonetheless Varg makes some pretty retarded statements, like comparing races to computer processor architectures.

I suppose it is kind of like Chuck "Tumor" Shuldiner wearing a shirt with cats on it to prove that death metal isn't for abusing animals; nobody in DM feels abusing animals is a good thing, but saying otherwise reeks of weakness and being pathetic (in addition to ruining a funny gag).    Hell, people like Glen Benton of Deicide made a joke of it, to get laughs off the gullible people who were disconnected from reality.

The main problem is that saying "Summoning is and never was connected to NSBM; any thought to the contrary was a misconception" is far more productive than writing a manifesto that reeks of political correctness.  Hell, even saying "Fuck off, nazis" would've been cool too.   I can totally understand wanting to distance yourself from NSBM and having friends who aren't white, but going into how the music was developed by non-whites seems quite a bit defensive and makes you look like you're using servile lip service to the crowd.... especially over a fucking youtube video.

I suppose, to summarize it, the problem is that you felt necessary to distance yourself from society by appealing to rather socially acceptable values, instead of just clarifying your beliefs (or lack thereof in regards to NS).  If that makes sense to you.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Olethros on April 27, 2007, 07:07:33 AM
I personally mentioned Kreuzweg Ost (apart from the obvious relation that exists with Summoning) because I got the impression that the guys involved with this project decided to show through music their view of things concerning a controversial topic such as the rise and fall of the 3rd Reich and WWII in general is, without caring about any negative reactions thay may get from people that don't actually understand this point of view. I know that Kreuzweg Ost has nothing to do with Nazism or any kind of political ideology in general. But this is obvious to anyone who actually listened to their music and they didn't have to apology to anybody or make any particular statement even if they were accused of being Nazis or supporters of right-wing ideology or whatever. What I'm trying to say is that every intelligent Summoning fan knows what Summoning is about and that it has nothing to do with Nazism. So why write a lengthy apology about the fact that some people used your music in a way that you don't approve and not (as mentioned above) just ask for the videos to be removed (which you have absolutely the right to ask for) and stop there? Apologizing for something that is 100% obvious (that Summoning has nothing to do with Nazism) could make some ignorant people believe that you actually feel guilty for something that you definetely shouldn't feel guilty at all.


PS: Though it doesn't have anything to do with the topic, I'd like to say that concerning the origin of Turks it is the other way around. The first Turks originated in Central Asia (Turkestan) and were a Mongolic Asian tribe. They looked like the way today's people in the former soviet states of Central Asia looke like (straight dark hair, epicanthic fold). Turks later migrated to the west and if there exist today european looking or blonde Turks, it is because they mixed with the european populations of the conquered lands (remember Jannisaries?).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 07:10:28 AM
Quote

I think a lot of it is that people in BM find politically correct (regardless of the validity) beliefs subversive, thus they're more likely to attack your statements rather than Varg's.  Nonetheless Varg makes some pretty retarded statements, like comparing races to computer processor architectures.

I suppose it is kind of like Chuck "Tumor" Shuldiner wearing a shirt with cats on it to prove that death metal isn't for abusing animals; nobody in DM feels abusing animals is a good thing, but saying otherwise reeks of weakness and being pathetic (in addition to ruining a funny gag).    Hell, people like Glen Benton of Deicide made a joke of it, to get laughs off the gullible people who were disconnected from reality.

The main problem is that saying "Summoning is and never was connected to NSBM; any thought to the contrary was a misconception" is far more productive than writing a manifesto that reeks of political correctness.  Hell, even saying "Fuck off, nazis" would've been cool too.   I can totally understand wanting to distance yourself from NSBM and having friends who aren't white, but going into how the music was developed by non-whites seems quite a bit defensive and makes you look like you're using servile lip service to the crowd.... especially over a fucking youtube video.

I suppose, to summarize it, the problem is that you felt necessary to distance yourself from society by appealing to rather socially acceptable values, instead of just clarifying your beliefs (or lack thereof in regards to NS).  If that makes sense to you.


i totaly understand what you mean and i was aware about this boring "political correctness" attack before i posted it. but anyway there are enough stupid punks saying "fuck off nazis". you have to understand that i like to write more considerated lines and leave those empty slogans to the punks.

well i did not say it to be cool, i said it because it was necessary for myself. i am really not interested to impress any person by saying "fuck nazis", then i probably would make some hardcore or grindcore music. that would not suit to summoning at all. and i  would neither say anything because it is political correct nor because it is political incorrect. saying things just cause they are political incorrect is for me rather total unmature teenager style.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 27, 2007, 07:15:01 AM
Quote
i totaly understand what you mean and i was aware about this boring "political correctness" attack before i posted it. but anyway there are enough stupid punks saying "fuck off nazis". you have to understand that i like to write more considerated lines and leave those empty slogans to the punks.


Ah, I didn't mean it literally.

Quote
well i did not say it to be cool, i said it because it was necessary for myself. i am really not interested to impress any person by saying "fuck nazis", then i probably would make some hardcore or grindcore music. that would not suit to summoning at all. and i  would neither say anything because it is political correct nor because it is political incorrect. saying things just cause they are political incorrect is for me rather total unmature teenager style.


What I meant by "cool" would be that it would be okay, I didn't mean it by wanting to improve social standing or anything.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 27, 2007, 07:52:39 AM
And btw talking about shocking and political correctness. why does not anybody try to be political incorrect by spreading Islamic terror ideas. or why is none shocking with communistic messages. i think both are for example for the USA far more shocking nowadays than this boring nazi topic. in USA for example you can make a nazi demonstration on street, and as the freedom of speech seems to be important there they can do it without problems. but imagine anybody in USA making a Islamic demonstration against the USA regime. what you think would be the greater provocation for the government? and as europe always fallows any trends in USA with some years delay this would also provocat european countries much more.

the reason why they don't do it is for me simply because it maybe started as a provocation and a the desire to be incorrect, but turned out to a new lifestyle for most who started with provocation once. and incorrectness is also a relative thing. in the black metal scene it seems to be quite correct to spread nazi stuff. actually i deal more with people from the metal scene than with normal people, so you can see my statements as a kind of political incorrectness towards the black metal scene; just consider those indignation my statements cause in that forum;-)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on April 27, 2007, 08:58:43 AM
It's nice to see one of the best current artists in metal posting here :-)

Protector:

Metal isn't completely 'ayran' for sure, but none of us are trying to say that it is. Influence for modern art comes from almost everywhere, due to globalisation. Peoples and cultures have borrowed influences from each other since time immemorial (and not just musically), it is childish to say 'who owns what kind of music'. The only thing I can see what black people have done is slightly changed the way of playing an instrument. They didn't change the direction of art such as in the way many classical composers have. Don't use the overplayed black influence on music as an outlet to show how kosher you are with the moron masses.

All that matters in a musician is the spirit and will to create art. It doesn't really matter what instruments or techniques get in the way. That's why many people here think highly of your music.

By the way, it seems you are trying to excuse Turkish economic immigrants moving en masse to your country and causing ethnocide by saying some food you eat finds its roots in China hundreds of years ago. Why?

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dylar on April 27, 2007, 09:21:16 AM
Protector, welcome aboard.  

I think most of us here are always glad to see musicians who are willing to come down from the clouds and discuss their music and beliefs, regardless of whether they fall in line with what many of us believe.  

We could spend all year arguing about the provenance of the various instruments or the exact ethnic lineage of the blues and get no closer to the truth.  Scholars have kicked these questions back and forth for decades, but no one really has an answer that is satisfactory: too much has simply been lost in the mists of time.

In any event, the reality is that, whatever the origins of the guitar and other instruments may be, they have been central to European musical culture for centuries, so the use of guitar hardly calls into question the 'Europeaness' (for lack of a better word) of metal.  The blues seem even less relevant, because, in my view, metal emerged as a form distinct from rock precisely because metal moved away from the blues tradition - away from blues-based tonality; away from blues-based structures; away from the party hearty hedonism rock had inherited from the blues (which isn't to say that metalheads don't party, just that hedonism is subordinated to and sublimated within a Will-to-Power warrior ethos that is clearly modelled on a form of European martial idealism).  Instead, metal increasingly adopted the ideals and techniques of the European classical tradition, making epic, structuralist music celebrating a martial idealism that is peculiarly European.

Now, I've certainly never been privy to the inner workings of your creative process, but I have to admit that when I listen to Summoning what I hear (and I have a fairly vast lexicon of musical history to draw on) is a thousand years of Germanic musical culture condensed (if that word can be fairly applied to a band famed for albums consisting of 10+ minute epics) into a new musical mythology celebrating a world that has passed and looking to a world that could be again.  You might just as well try to hold back the wind as try to demand that 'nazis' not like your music.  And, let's be honest, nobody but an idiot is going to assume that Summoning is a National Socialist outfit because they saw a video on YouTube.  Do you really care all that much what morons think?

Just as a curiosity, who would you say your primary influences are?  I hear Burzum, mid-period Bathory, Wagner, medieval/Renaissance polyphony and, on occasion, darkwave or maybe even Dead Can Dance, but it's always possible that what I'm hearing is parallel evolution.  
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Alexis on April 27, 2007, 09:38:09 AM
I like Summoning a lot and think the latest album was a success towards an instrumentation that really transcended most of the previous albums, and I am glad that the band doesn't place political slogans before art, because when that happens, the music becomes propaganda.

Most of the "arguments" in the statement can easily be debunked, since they're versions of classic modern straw man logic.

- Nationalism doesn't involve hating anyone, since that is racism and moronic. Nationalism is about loving your own people and culture

- No individual is a lonely island. We're products of our forefathers, whether we like it or not, and the things they thought and did have shaped us into who we are

- Leadership doesn't imply that people are forced to think in a certain way, but to unite under common values and let a leader make sure those values are acted upon

- The fact that cultures influence each other, doesn't mean that Cultures Don't Exist; otherwise it'd be kind of hard to speak of diversity, right?!

- Blues would never have existed if Celtic folk music hadn't been created; blues is a cosmocultural genre, which means addressing it to blacks only is a fallacy

- Perhaps many polish N-S-BM-artists really are of Germanic heritage, not Slavish?

- Varg Vikernes is far from the Fuhrer of black metal music (and from what he's written, he supports ancient Democracy and not Nazism). What made Nazism interesting for a large portion of black metal acts, was the idealism and heroism over morality, and the flirt with ancient European philosophy and mythology. In metal you fight for ideals and power. In rock music you sing about sex and hamburgers. Notice a difference?

With that said, I will continue listening to Summoning without being bothered by this. According to reality, some are artists and some are politicians. We should not confuse the both, even if artists sometimes contribute with sane political views, and certain politicans may hold artistic qualities (*hint* HITLER *hint*).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 27, 2007, 11:03:16 AM
Quote
why does not anybody try to be political incorrect by spreading Islamic terror ideas.


http://anus.com/metal/fearless_iranians_from_hell/
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 27, 2007, 11:07:26 AM
Quote
- Perhaps many polish N-S-BM-artists really are of Germanic heritage, not Slavish?


Like Graveland and Nokturnal Mortum?  Get real. (I know NM is Ukranian, but the point still stands).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: satans_underwear on April 27, 2007, 01:53:04 PM
At the end of the day, Who cares? Most of our favourite bands are probably composed of retards we would not talk to in real life! Since when does one misplaced comment sentence an artist to being hated by some supposedly elistest aids junky on some forum. The music is what counts. Personally I will still enjoy Summoning regardless of their comments, and if certain elistist faggots cannot deal with that, bad luck or better still start your own band and see how you go! a million bucks say's you will suck and never be as good!
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Annihilaytorr on April 27, 2007, 04:49:20 PM
Welcome Protector -

I have a two part question.

1. Beyond your musical influences, what is the spirit behind what you make? Is it motivated by anything deeper than just thinking Lord of the Rings is cool? What is the purpose of Summoning?

2. What "black" elements are found in your music?

I am surprised to see you toe the line of feel good propaganda about how "African" rock music supposedly is. Most people who think outside what TV and mainstream education feed them know that the "African" role in blues and rock music is dramatically over-stated to make rock and modern music, and by extension society, more inclusive to demographics that were abused and marginalized historically.

What made metal "metal" was the conscious and direct move towards European/neo-classical tradition. If society was just as fucked up, and everything was exactly the same as it is now, but blacks were never taken as slaves and never played blues, metal would still exist in very much the same state.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 28, 2007, 03:26:11 AM
Quote
I like Summoning a lot and think the latest album was a success towards an instrumentation that really transcended most of the previous albums, and I am glad that the band doesn't place political slogans before art, because when that happens, the music becomes propaganda.

Most of the "arguments" in the statement can easily be debunked, since they're versions of classic modern straw man logic.

- Nationalism doesn't involve hating anyone, since that is racism and moronic. Nationalism is about loving your own people and culture

- No individual is a lonely island. We're products of our forefathers, whether we like it or not, and the things they thought and did have shaped us into who we are

- Leadership doesn't imply that people are forced to think in a certain way, but to unite under common values and let a leader make sure those values are acted upon

- The fact that cultures influence each other, doesn't mean that Cultures Don't Exist; otherwise it'd be kind of hard to speak of diversity, right?!

- Blues would never have existed if Celtic folk music hadn't been created; blues is a cosmocultural genre, which means addressing it to blacks only is a fallacy

- Perhaps many polish N-S-BM-artists really are of Germanic heritage, not Slavish?

- Varg Vikernes is far from the Fuhrer of black metal music (and from what he's written, he supports ancient Democracy and not Nazism). What made Nazism interesting for a large portion of black metal acts, was the idealism and heroism over morality, and the flirt with ancient European philosophy and mythology. In metal you fight for ideals and power. In rock music you sing about sex and hamburgers. Notice a difference?

With that said, I will continue listening to Summoning without being bothered by this. According to reality, some are artists and some are politicians. We should not confuse the both, even if artists sometimes contribute with sane political views, and certain politicans may hold artistic qualities (*hint* HITLER *hint*).


cool this forum finally gets a much higher niveau. i appreciate that indeed!

yes i agree with you in some aspects. actually i did not want to attack nationalism. i dont see myself as nationalist, but i know that this word does not necessarily have to mean national socialistic for sure.

Nationalism does not necessarily mean national socialism and does not have to be right btw. Once again the difference between nationalism and NS is that non rather left nationalism fights the people on high position whereas the right nationalism is always combined with arrogance and fights against people in the lowest position. i think right nationalism is rather meant for week people, and explains why you always see 30 skinheads beating up a few.

i also agree with your second comment totally. i total know that i am a product of my environment, and noone is really free. but what i mean is that you are not a slave of your DNS. I mean i know mexicans making cool industrial music, turks and arabs making black metal etc. your fate is not determined because of your "race".

i did not say that all leaders force there people to think in a certain way. i meant that fascistic leaders do that and actually this is the definition of fascism, i think noone can deny that.

again you are right with your next statement, but i think in the end of my political statements i said the same as you do, didn't it?

ok you are again right.
i think the reason for this confusion is my lack of english. what i meant is that metal simply has historic black influences and would not existing in the way it is now without those influences. i never said that it is sill black music, again i wanted to express that almost any kind of music has multi-cultural background even if those influences are quite hidden.

about your next statement. well some might be but i know from interviews that polish nazi say that hitler was write in everything except the fact that slavonig people are no master race as well. and i also rather wanted to focus on the fact that some german nazi bands see the polish in a total contray way as they think they do.

yes i again i agree with you somehow. but the problem is this mixing of reality with fantasy. actualyl when we sing about battles and elves and orks, it does not mean that for me elves and orks are reality;-)

and also agree with you. mixing politics with music is like mixing religion with politics;-) i tried to avoid that all those years, but suddenly since i dealed with screw driver and landser and also some german nazi song writers i simply could not continue that way. it makes me angry and i wanted to express my anger. is that so hard to understand? ints expressing your anger something that goes quite well with metal attitude?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 28, 2007, 03:35:56 AM
Quote
It's nice to see one of the best current artists in metal posting here :-)

Protector:

Metal isn't completely 'ayran' for sure, but none of us are trying to say that it is. Influence for modern art comes from almost everywhere, due to globalisation. Peoples and cultures have borrowed influences from each other since time immemorial (and not just musically), it is childish to say 'who owns what kind of music'. The only thing I can see what black people have done is slightly changed the way of playing an instrument. They didn't change the direction of art such as in the way many classical composers have. Don't use the overplayed black influence on music as an outlet to show how kosher you are with the moron masses.

All that matters in a musician is the spirit and will to create art. It doesn't really matter what instruments or techniques get in the way. That's why many people here think highly of your music.

By the way, it seems you are trying to excuse Turkish economic immigrants moving en masse to your country and causing ethnocide by saying some food you eat finds its roots in China hundreds of years ago. Why?




yes you are right. surely this statement i wrote was not in contradiction to all people on this forum. but some people are total in contradiction to that. for example varg said that he stopped playing guitars because guitars are n-i-g-g-e-r instruments. at least for him my statement was a contradiction, and he surely is not the only one.

no my informations about turkey where not in connection to any turkish immigrants. i just dealed a lot with turkey as i was working with a turkish singer for my project "die verbannten kinder evas". that really influenced me for sure. i did not expect any people in turkey that grew up with burzum since the age of 13, that have hardly any knowledge about turkish culture and only love western one. that showed for me even clearer as before that your "race" does not tell anything about your personality, and your culture. you can chose it if you are in the right surrounding.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 28, 2007, 03:41:33 AM
Quote
Protector, welcome aboard.  

I think most of us here are always glad to see musicians who are willing to come down from the clouds and discuss their music and beliefs, regardless of whether they fall in line with what many of us believe.  

We could spend all year arguing about the provenance of the various instruments or the exact ethnic lineage of the blues and get no closer to the truth.  Scholars have kicked these questions back and forth for decades, but no one really has an answer that is satisfactory: too much has simply been lost in the mists of time.

In any event, the reality is that, whatever the origins of the guitar and other instruments may be, they have been central to European musical culture for centuries, so the use of guitar hardly calls into question the 'Europeaness' (for lack of a better word) of metal.  The blues seem even less relevant, because, in my view, metal emerged as a form distinct from rock precisely because metal moved away from the blues tradition - away from blues-based tonality; away from blues-based structures; away from the party hearty hedonism rock had inherited from the blues (which isn't to say that metalheads don't party, just that hedonism is subordinated to and sublimated within a Will-to-Power warrior ethos that is clearly modelled on a form of European martial idealism).  Instead, metal increasingly adopted the ideals and techniques of the European classical tradition, making epic, structuralist music celebrating a martial idealism that is peculiarly European.

Now, I've certainly never been privy to the inner workings of your creative process, but I have to admit that when I listen to Summoning what I hear (and I have a fairly vast lexicon of musical history to draw on) is a thousand years of Germanic musical culture condensed (if that word can be fairly applied to a band famed for albums consisting of 10+ minute epics) into a new musical mythology celebrating a world that has passed and looking to a world that could be again.  You might just as well try to hold back the wind as try to demand that 'nazis' not like your music.  And, let's be honest, nobody but an idiot is going to assume that Summoning is a National Socialist outfit because they saw a video on YouTube.  Do you really care all that much what morons think?

Just as a curiosity, who would you say your primary influences are?  I hear Burzum, mid-period Bathory, Wagner, medieval/Renaissance polyphony and, on occasion, darkwave or maybe even Dead Can Dance, but it's always possible that what I'm hearing is parallel evolution.  


cool that you apreaciate my connection to the people who listen to music. this was always important for me. no matter if they wrote some comments or asked me to sign a booklet.

you have to know i hate arrogance and as i feel so much arrogance in rassistic ideologies i hat it as well.

i think i explained the rest of your post as well. but i will get more detailed

once again metal is not a music that sounds like african music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but it changed the face of metal music. i see it rather like food. if you eat a carrot for example i don't think you will look like a carrot after a while, but anyway this carrot will help you to build up your body.
i hope this analogy was not to weired:-)

the essence of that is that influences on cultures from far away dont mean that this culture looses its identity.


Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 28, 2007, 03:51:01 AM
Quote
And btw talking about shocking and political correctness. why does not anybody try to be political incorrect by spreading Islamic terror ideas.


http://www.amerika.org/
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 28, 2007, 04:37:07 AM
Quote
Once again the difference between nationalism and NS is that non rather left nationalism fights the people on high position whereas the right nationalism is always combined with arrogance and fights against people in the lowest position.


You're wrong, historically speaking. Hitler defended the working German from large corporate interests. The problem with the left is that they're so busy trying to get revenge on rich people they forget that it's the appetite of the crowd that empowers the real bastards in this world.

I don't know how any thinking person can defend the left, considering their utterly abysmal record in getting things done. Have they lessened poverty? No. Have they improved "race relations"? No. Have they made women happier? No, now they're all single in their 40s, without families and ignored by men who can chase younger flesh. Left is death.

That being said, I can't think of a real right-wing party at this point in time, and I think it's a mistake to view Hitler's National Socialists as leftists. After all, they were the first government to advance a real environmental plan, and still the only one with a comprehensive one.

Protector, I respect your music, but you're not a historian or philosopher. Let me direct you to something and see how many points you disagree with:

Quote
The Programme of the German Workers' Party is designed to be of limited duration. The leaders have no intention, once the aims announced in it have been achieved, of establishing fresh ones, merely in order to increase, artificially, the discontent of the masses and so ensure the continued existence of the Party.

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:
(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.

The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action. - NSDAP (http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/)


You can see that maybe the modern rightists you see are not representative of the ideas responsible for National Socialism. (Hell, most people are morons. So most rightists are probably morons, too -- but that doesn't mean rightist as correctly interpreted is wrong).

Two, on race... you wonder why America is a cultureless void? A lack of National culture and consensus. Every individual person (the weak) does what they want, and doesn't care about the outcome, so the place becomes a wreck. Cruel corporate leaders manipulate the little dummies and get what they want, every time. That's what the left brings you... dominion by jerks.

The fact is, the crowd needs to be kept in line, because they don't have the judgment to make political decisions, just like you clearly don't understand history (even from an unbiased perspective). You have other things to do. Escapist fantasy heavy metal is one of them. So we should pay attention to the smartest people we have, and their wisdom is anti-crowd.

Personally I am very much in love with Nietzsche and Aristotle. They are the ultimate eugenicist realists who recognize that constant struggle by the better against the lesser is necessary for the better to keep making themselves better, and so staying better, and for the lesser to keep from overwhelming the planet with their numbers.

I consider myself a Anti-Racist Nationalist (http://www.anus.com/tribes/arn) in that I don't believe in being mean to other races, but I believe in keeping my own apart from all other races by any means necessary. That comes from an understanding of history and the ideas that rule it, and I suggest you explore those intellectual tools before making grand but empty statements.

85 (Heil Eugenics)

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on April 28, 2007, 06:08:45 AM
The Nazi's still managed to fuck it up; they became decadent, and allowed Hitler to be something more than a mouthpiece.

I don't like to see any NSDAP praise here seeing as in practice they were a terrible, terrible corrupt and moronic party, and managed to fuck up nationalism for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dylar on April 28, 2007, 09:57:58 AM
Quote

cool that you apreaciate my connection to the people who listen to music. this was always important for me. no matter if they wrote some comments or asked me to sign a booklet.

you have to know i hate arrogance and as i feel so much arrogance in rassistic ideologies i hat it as well.


But don't you think there's a certain arrogance inherent in suggesting that your music should be reserved for people who share your views?  Understand I'm not trying to single you out - I feel the same way when Varg pontificates about who Burzum is 'for.'

Quote
once again metal is not a music that sounds like african music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think this is the point everyone has been trying to make to you.  Metal just isn't the multicultural phenomenon (at least in its roots) that it seemed you initially implied.  There's a certain incredulity that gets triggered in people when they hear how 'multicultural' metal is from one of the guys in Summoning.  I wouldn't offend your for all the world, my friend, but Summoning couldn't sound  much whiter if you released an album of Hoerst Wessel Lied remixes...

Quote
the essence of that is that influences on cultures from far away dont mean that this culture looses its identity.


I think we're saying much the same thing.

In any event, this thread is becoming too much about 'National Socialism' and not enough about Summoning, metal, or any other relevant subject, so if you would like to continue to discuss this, I'd be happy to take it to private messages or to email (I can be reached at laeth.maclaurie@gmail.com ).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on April 28, 2007, 12:41:05 PM
Protector:

I don't see things in terms of "good" and "bad" and instead look at things from their healthy and unhealthy aspects. So when i look at Nazism i can see the positive effects it had and the negative. This means i don't use an idea because the Nazis did or use an idea because the Nazis did.

Some positive things the Nazis achieved was they united Germany and took countries that where pretty much German controlled (in terms of population) that bordered Germany that wanted to become part of the fatherland and gave them all a common country. It heavily promoted pagan ideals, particularly those of the Germanic tribes (for obvious reasons) and as such used eugenics and routine exercise programs to have a very fit and healthy people.

But then you look at the negative or unhealthy aspects used by the Nazis. Forced eugenics, complete and utter control over population (making free though illegal and punishable by death). Persecution of huge numbers of people on unproved  grounds (and unprovable at the time). Sadistic harm of others for the sake of torture.

If we look at Nazism this way we can be unafraid to use things that the Nazis did that where helpful and beneficial and are aware of what should not be done.      
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: neoclassical on April 28, 2007, 01:42:04 PM
Quote
... If we look at Nazism this way we can be unafraid to use things that the Nazis did that where helpful and beneficial and are aware of what should not be done.

We can even omit the "what should be done" part and stay entirely in the realm which is above all moral obligations and, more specifically, individual concerns. Music can potentially partake in this realm to some extent. This in turn allows for a realization of the supra-individual element in the listenener, depending on his capacities. The creator(s) of the music are in this respect not relevant.
When people get so easily offended over concepts which really reside on an entirely different sphere than the one of individual beings, it is nothing more than a sign of lacking insight on their part.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Annihilaytorr on April 28, 2007, 02:13:08 PM
I think it boils down to Protector living in a box, still blind to what is happening to the rest of the West. He is still very brainwashed, which is surprising to me as someone with music as advanced as his one would think would have a greater understanding of the world. Ah well. Awesome music though.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Heydrich on April 28, 2007, 06:30:54 PM
Quote
I think it boils down to Protector living in a box, still blind to what is happening to the rest of the West. He is still very brainwashed, which is surprising to me as someone with music as advanced as his one would think would have a greater understanding of the world. Ah well. Awesome music though.


This situation is fairly common, in my experience, with the musician's musician types - perhaps he is of that ilk and that is precisely why he propounds this inane nonsense. They get caught-up in the typical reverence for all the "greats" and supposedly ultra-influential, ie. "Protector" parroting that negro music canard,  or those who endlessly praise Jazz as the be all and end all of artistic expression in music...not so much because it is really all that impressive, but because it fits the ideal of the "right-thinking" artistic-types.  Its a sickness...

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 29, 2007, 05:49:40 AM
Gentlemen, you don't open a dialogue by insulting the participants. I think it's great Protector showed up and gave his side of the story. I don't have a problem with them being anti-Nazi, but I do think the parroting of incorrect historical data is a shame to say the least. It makes black metal bands look like more of the sheep problem, not the solution.

Nationalism is rising across the world. The challenge to it is to avoid going overboard like the NSDAP, who had some great ideas and some great failings, although their failings aren't as great as society's now. This is just a wimpy time we live in, when people are so afraid someone's feelings might get hurt they pass along a rotting society to everyone.

These sorts of societies never last... they disintegrate as soon as it becomes clear that to avoid being one of the impoverished proles, one must buy fully into a boring and ugly capitalistic system. It's too bad the West has elected to destroy itself in this passive way, but when you decide to enrich yourselves personally by using the crowd against your enemies, expect to start a chain reaction that ends in disintegration.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on April 29, 2007, 06:52:49 AM
Quote
although their failings aren't as great as society's now.


Erm, exactly how much do you know about Nazism?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on April 29, 2007, 06:46:39 PM
Quote

Erm, exactly how much do you know about Nazism?


Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: detrath on April 29, 2007, 08:04:54 PM
Many of you have managed to create debate that's no better than the "debate" you see in American political party candidate commercials. Discussion should be about the material at hand. All these comments purportedly trying to explain Protector's psychology are ad hom and a waste of time. Given he is really Protector of Summoning, I'm surprised at the bitterness and lack of respect that is showing itself in places, given the great respect here for the music of Summoning. Some of you seem to wear masks of decency that don't quite hide your sneers. Are you so swept up in ideology that you are forced into attacking someone you claim you respect so much?

I thought there was an interesting question raised earlier that I'd like to recreate here, and it is related to the topic at hand, for it would distinguish Summoning music from any of this political business. I think that distinction is what is motivating the strange feelings: how could Summoning make something like this that feels like a press release? Summoning is apolitical afterall.

So, we wonder what you think:
Beyond your musical influences, what is the spirit behind what you make? What is the purpose of Summoning?

Spirit, purpose, and also perhaps: what do you think Summoning means? What is its significance? Many people here build up strong feelings about what makes Summoning significant or important in some way, so perhaps you could say how you feel about this.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 30, 2007, 12:34:19 AM
Quote
Many of you have managed to create debate that's no better than the "debate" you see in American political party candidate commercials. Discussion should be about the material at hand. All these comments purportedly trying to explain Protector's psychology are ad hom and a waste of time. Given he is really Protector of Summoning, I'm surprised at the bitterness and lack of respect that is showing itself in places, given the great respect here for the music of Summoning. Some of you seem to wear masks of decency that don't quite hide your sneers. Are you so swept up in ideology that you are forced into attacking someone you claim you respect so much?

I thought there was an interesting question raised earlier that I'd like to recreate here, and it is related to the topic at hand, for it would distinguish Summoning music from any of this political business. I think that distinction is what is motivating the strange feelings: how could Summoning make something like this that feels like a press release? Summoning is apolitical afterall.

So, we wonder what you think:
 Beyond your musical influences, what is the spirit behind what you make? What is the purpose of Summoning?

Spirit, purpose, and also perhaps: what do you think Summoning means? What is its significance? Many people here build up strong feelings about what makes Summoning significant or important in some way, so perhaps you could say how you feel about this.


why you talk about an attack. why so sensitive suddenly. i just stood up and decided to write down all the things that piss me off about nazi movements. and hopefully there are not only nazis listening to my music. actually those statements cause a quite huge discussion in this forum and as long as an argument has at least a bit niveau i am glad to react on it. thats not attacking fans, or showing disrespect to them. in contrary, isnt reacting to fans opinions the deepest kind of respect you can imagine for a band member. would it not be far more respect-less to just thing "those nazis are pure   idiots" and never try to discuss about it and find out some of the reasons for that?

about your question which i did not answer:
the purpose of summoning is to create  a musical fantasy world for sure. we want to make music totally based on tunes and atmospheres that take people away from reality while listening to it. and all of you who say that summoning shall be unpolitic are totally right, thats why we never would spread any political statements in our music. but on the other hand i get seriously angry when i see ideologies arising that sooner or later would destroy any kind of musical minority cultures such as the metal scene. and i think keeping this anger inside of me instead of showing it to the people that might be interested in it, would be rather week. actually i would have preferred to leave those nazi videos in you tub there and put a comment to them only there not on the page, but my only option was to remove them.

anyway take a look at lord of the rings. take a look at the orc and the haradrims with their oliphaunts that summoning fans rather indentify with than with the good guys. inst it obvious how close the are to more oriental inspired culture. sure tolkien never wanted to express political views in his book, but subconciously you can see very many similarties.

and take a look at our CD "Minas Morgul", then you noticed that we always use also oriental scales. some also done by silenius. and in former times even varg listened to bands like "dead can dance".

at the beginning black metal was satanic but not national socialistic. those times most people said they try to shock the super conservative people in their towns with such music, but what happened then, they start to adore national socialism that is defined as super conservative.





Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 30, 2007, 12:44:18 AM
Quote

Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?



No but nazi braught us the second word war, that caused the destruction of almost each house in vienna for example! and that far more heavy than a lousy crashed building by terrorists. i think maybe the fact that i was born in the same land where hitler was born makes those ideologies much more real for me, whereas people from contries far away can surely put more illusions inside this ideology.

and btw.
nazis did not reign long enough to bring us global warmiing but they acted like that. they focused totally on industrialisation what sooner or later leads to that. they never did anything like environment- protection for sure.

and yes, they brought us soulless jobs indeed. i think hardly before people where working so much on band conveyors as before.

well they did not bring us boring tv shows as the tev technolgy was not ready that time, but they spend much time with boring propaganda shows

and if you think nazis did not bring us a "perverse society". how you call a society that takes total innocent j-e-w-is-h people who never did anything wrong and put them to concentration camps.

and btw imagine an old nazi seeing todays metal scene. they would think "guys with gay long hair, what scandal". they first would take all of the metal kids and shave their heads to prevent this "perversion".
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 30, 2007, 01:05:39 AM
Quote

You're wrong, historically speaking. Hitler defended the working German from large corporate interests. The problem with the left is that they're so busy trying to get revenge on rich people they forget that it's the appetite of the crowd that empowers the real bastards in this world.

I don't know how any thinking person can defend the left, considering their utterly abysmal record in getting things done. Have they lessened poverty? No. Have they improved "race relations"? No. Have they made women happier? No, now they're all single in their 40s, without families and ignored by men who can chase younger flesh. Left is death.

That being said, I can't think of a real right-wing party at this point in time, and I think it's a mistake to view Hitler's National Socialists as leftists. After all, they were the first government to advance a real environmental plan, and still the only one with a comprehensive one.

Protector, I respect your music, but you're not a historian or philosopher. Let me direct you to something and see how many points you disagree with:


You can see that maybe the modern rightists you see are not representative of the ideas responsible for National Socialism. (Hell, most people are morons. So most rightists are probably morons, too -- but that doesn't mean rightist as correctly interpreted is wrong).

Two, on race... you wonder why America is a cultureless void? A lack of National culture and consensus. Every individual person (the weak) does what they want, and doesn't care about the outcome, so the place becomes a wreck. Cruel corporate leaders manipulate the little dummies and get what they want, every time. That's what the left brings you... dominion by jerks.

The fact is, the crowd needs to be kept in line, because they don't have the judgment to make political decisions, just like you clearly don't understand history (even from an unbiased perspective). You have other things to do. Escapist fantasy heavy metal is one of them. So we should pay attention to the smartest people we have, and their wisdom is anti-crowd.

Personally I am very much in love with Nietzsche and Aristotle. They are the ultimate eugenicist realists who recognize that constant struggle by the better against the lesser is necessary for the better to keep making themselves better, and so staying better, and for the lesser to keep from overwhelming the planet with their numbers.

I consider myself a Anti-Racist Nationalist (http://www.anus.com/tribes/arn) in that I don't believe in being mean to other races, but I believe in keeping my own apart from all other races by any means necessary. That comes from an understanding of history and the ideas that rule it, and I suggest you explore those intellectual tools before making grand but empty statements.

85 (Heil Eugenics)




remamber times of the industrial revolution where the normal working peole had to work 16 hours a day in cole mines an never even saw the cole mine. the only ones that cared about this situation where the socialist those times. with the help of workers unions they finally could manage that peole work less and less and the might of the super ritch got reduced.

well the problem is that this was 100 years ago, and now people calling them social politicians are rather social politicians because their daddies braught them to this position, but anyway you have to see that historically see they cared far more for their folk than any nazi leader.

actually it is a great advantage for a nazi that the thrid reich did not lats so long and did not end like ht communistic fascistic regimes, so there is more space left for fantasies how great everything would have been those times. but already in this short time you saw how the nazis leader had parties drinking champagne each day whereas the people in war had maybe 2 slices of bread to eat. i often noticed that most of the people can not decide between reality and the images the nazis produced in their propaganda. sure seeing it from the propaganda side everything was super fine, but that always the same with dictatorships. they have great abilities to presentsemselfes nice and fine.

you tell me i am neither a philosopher nor a historian so i shall shut up. why you think you have the right to decide that. and do you think that all people with opposite views are all philosophers and historian. acutally i am write i neither studies philosophy nor hitory in university. but do you think a person has to have finished a study in philosophy or history to be worth to have an opinion about it. isnit is possible for a normal person to read fact and compare them with others and therefore get new conclusions.
dont you think that these line is extremely arrogant?

sorry but i am right now to busy to react on all of the political lines you wrote but i want to concentrate one line

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.  

well thats what i mean. nazis are not only nationalits (a i said this is not necessarily bad for me). they are arrogant nationalists thinking their culture is better than others. well funny to read this in a forum that is on an USA server as USA once was a colony full of foreign people that later got independent. USA did not accept to be a colony to feed the people in England. and this complete idea of colonies is super capitalistic and the essence of exploitation and the reason for terror attacks as well.

ok anti-racistic nationalist are indeed not such a problem for me then racisitic one, but still living in austria that historically seen is totally mixed up since decades and centuries (40% of the austrian have obvious Slavonic names for example) i dont share those believes anyway.

Btw years ago i voted against the EU as i see it only as a support for the rich people.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 30, 2007, 01:06:43 AM
Quote
The Nazi's still managed to fuck it up; they became decadent, and allowed Hitler to be something more than a mouthpiece.

I don't like to see any NSDAP praise here seeing as in practice they were a terrible, terrible corrupt and moronic party, and managed to fuck up nationalism for the rest of us.


great said.
i think if you really love germany then you should hate the nazis. i know many people who love their german culture and therefore specially hate the nazis.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 30, 2007, 01:46:45 AM
about nationalism and culture.
what actually does it mean to being a nationalist and to close to your ethnic roots?
doesn't it mean to follow all the old traditions all your ancestors followed as well. to listen and play the music their ancestors listened to and played it, to dress in the tradition they did etc. like they did all over centuries.

but what do the metal heads so. they have long "g-a-y" hair, dress with some black band t-shirt and probably where jeans and make a kind of music all which their ancestors would have considered as pure noise where none of them would discover any kind of traditional german music elements inside. they do all those things their ancestors never did or would have liked.

actually it took that nazis quite a quite to understand that they can not get some new young nazi sympathizers with traditional rather happy march with brass orchestra. so in the 80 they decided to involve other music scene to their ideology to influence the youth. so they send their "agents" to various scene, including metal, techno (and if you believe it or not, even to "hip hop" music). before only the right wing of the skinhead movement spread those ideologies, but in the 80 the nazis displaced their real aesthetic views and accepted even music that they surely don't like if they are real nazis like the NSDAP and started to collaborate with people they actually rather would see as scum if they would talk honest. they even accept g-a-y and self claimed h-o-m-o-s-e-x-u-a-l gothics dressed in woman cloths for example as long as they swallow their propaganda. and unfortunately they have now the greatest success in the black metal scene. so if you want to live in harmony with your ethnic roots listen to classical music or march music, but not to metal music.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on April 30, 2007, 02:05:00 AM
Quote

But don't you think there's a certain arrogance inherent in suggesting that your music should be reserved for people who share your views?  Understand I'm not trying to single you out - I feel the same way when Varg pontificates about who Burzum is 'for.'


I think this is the point everyone has been trying to make to you.  Metal just isn't the multicultural phenomenon (at least in its roots) that it seemed you initially implied.  There's a certain incredulity that gets triggered in people when they hear how 'multicultural' metal is from one of the guys in Summoning.  I wouldn't offend your for all the world, my friend, but Summoning couldn't sound  much whiter if you released an album of Hoerst Wessel Lied remixes...


I think we're saying much the same thing.

In any event, this thread is becoming too much about 'National Socialism' and not enough about Summoning, metal, or any other relevant subject, so if you would like to continue to discuss this, I'd be happy to take it to private messages or to email (I can be reached at laeth.maclaurie@gmail.com ).


no there is a misunderstanding
i never said that my music is reserved for people with my opinion. i just wanted to make my opinions public and see what other people say to it.

of course the music of summoning sounds totally "white". but thats not the point. i am trying to say that music can sound white even if it has lots of non white elements inside. that actually something a nazis would not have accepted. in the third reich for example swing was not welcome at all, although it was a pure white version of jazz and sounded different from the original jazz.

well surely i can write you but then none else can read what i write and i will not get so many responses.



Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 30, 2007, 03:51:12 AM
Quote

Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?



Do you think the nazis would have tolerated/accepted death or black metal?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Alexis on April 30, 2007, 04:25:21 AM
Do you think Hitler would have been Hitler in our age? People are as much products of their ancestors and environment, as of their time. Metal is a modern musical expression and to see history linearly is to be mistaken.

It's not the hair or the clothes that are relevant, but the music and the spirit itself. This is what differs modern conservatism from traditionalism: conservatives believe we can preserve tradition by dressing out in pagan clothes and mumble a few words from the Eddas. The traditionalists live the spirit of the tradition, regardless of superificial, external accessories that change with time. Expression and spirit are two different things, and even though they are bound to each other, one must realize that expression is a variable and not a constant, hence why we can create metal today that expresses what our people fought for over 2,000 years ago.

Swing was "whitified" but degenerate and that is why Hitler opposed it. White doesn't make right. Hitler celebrated Wagner and so did Nietzsche - and even though the two of them may have had different artistic conceptions of why Wagner was great, one thing bound them together: spirit, honour, heroism, tradition.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on April 30, 2007, 08:33:34 AM
Quote

Did the Nazis bring us global warming, overpopulation, soulless corporate jobs, boring mass media, a perverse society and an end to higher values like loyalty and adventure?

I'm no Nazi, but do you realize what a tool you are?



You're a fucking moron, shut the fuck up. Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy. Let's just debunk that lovely post of yours:

Global warming: Didn't do anything to stop it and wasn't planning to; in line with every other country nowadays and back then also. His scope for increasing industrial output meant an INCREASE in pollutant output.

Overpopulation: Jesus you are fucking retarded. German mothers who gave birth to many children were revered by the state propaganda. They were given medals and money. Bodies were badly needed for the war grinder.

Boring mass media: This is a non-point, seeing as what I find interesting you may not, and "mass-media" can mean any form of medium that covers an area, nation or continent. But even so, Hitlers propaganda made wide use of Germanys media output and controlled everything that went out on the airwaves.

A perverse society: I can't think of anything more perverted than sending political enemies to ghettoes and concentration camps, and overtly indoctrinating the youth to unthinkingly tow the party line and breed them for war using school and social groups.

Higher values like loyalty and adventure: Loyal to who? They weren't loyal to their culture or people, or even to themselves, they were loyal to Hitler and his corrupt political party. Pathetic loyalty like this is completely opposed to Nietzches idea of the uebermensch. And as for adventure, I guess it's a lovely adventure to be sent into a thousand miles of barren Russian steppe whilst getting shot at!

Our movement may need past societies to look up to for their heroism, but the NSDAP isn't one of them. I would have liked to see anyone try to tell Hitler about anti-racist pan-nationalism...
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on April 30, 2007, 08:45:39 AM
Quote


anyway take a look at lord of the rings. take a look at the orc and the haradrims with their oliphaunts that summoning fans rather indentify with than with the good guys. inst it obvious how close the are to more oriental inspired culture. sure tolkien never wanted to express political views in his book, but subconciously you can see very many similarties.


If you look at the societies in The Lord Of The Rings, you can see that the strongest ones are actually very nationalistic. Each society has it's own culture, and interbreeding or migration is rare (and for elves, dwarfs and hobbits, impossible, which is why these are also succesful). Even so, the different societies still manage to work together for common good, to bring down the imperialistic evil ones.

This is an example of anti-racist pan-nationalism, even if much of Austria or anywhere is multi-racial, it can still work. You can still take what you have, remove the most obvious foreign and conflicting elements, and start to reverse the cultural and ethnic blurring of all nations, with clear ideals to aspire to, so we don't all end up the same (like orcs).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: detrath on April 30, 2007, 09:39:06 AM
Quote

why you talk about an attack. why so sensitive suddenly. i just stood up and decided to write down all the things that piss me off about nazi movements. and hopefully there are not only nazis listening to my music. actually those statements cause a quite huge discussion in this forum and as long as an argument has at least a bit niveau i am glad to react on it. thats not attacking fans, or showing disrespect to them. in contrary, isnt reacting to fans opinions the deepest kind of respect you can imagine for a band member. would it not be far more respect-less to just thing "those nazis are pure   idiots" and never try to discuss about it and find out some of the reasons for that?




Ahhh you completely misunderstood what I said. There were a few board members here who were saying disrespectful things in this thread about you that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I was trying to point out that doing that kind of attack is a waste of time (mirroring what born for banning said).

Alot of the thread has been good, discussing the various points where we agree and disagree. I merely wanted to discourage the brainless attacks others were doing.

Thank you for your reply to the questions.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 30, 2007, 10:41:29 AM
Quote
You're a fucking moron, shut the fuck up. Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy. Let's just debunk that lovely post of yours:


I think Hitler gets too much credit.  You have to remember that a lot of the policies implemented by nazi germany could probably have been the orders of his underlings and not him directly.  It's a fallacy to attribute everything to a leader who doesn't micromanage everything.

His main problem was, beyond having ridiculous racial beliefs about his "master 'aryan' race" and whatnot, was that he was too influenced by capitalism and Henry Ford, and created a bureaucratic system that allowed for a lot of corruption and generalized insanity.

The nazis blew hard.  Most modern nationalists blow hard.  Hell, modern nationalism is really, for the most part, either petty populism or some skinny American kid muttering something about the "Odin Allfather" he read in 10th grade world religions class, after basketball practice (and probably posts on this message board as well).  Such a kid probably has the word "wolf" in his online screen name along with the number 88 appended at the end of it.  I don't see why people (like some people at this website) like the nazis or most modern nationalists.

What needs to happen to turn the modern world away from its path of monotony, concrete streets and sidewalks, square buildings and cookie cutter houses, and 2 minute advertisements of smiling plastic people, is not some sort of nationalist revolt that ends in the seizing of government; that wouldn't even work anyways due to the momentum of prevailing ideas.  The world needs to be reset in chaos and anarchy, and people need to find new paths once the dust clears.  It's more fun that way, too, so it's a win-win situation for everyone involved (except for the Porker McBeefs or Bill Gateses of the world).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Immolation on April 30, 2007, 10:58:05 AM
Quote
What needs to happen to turn the modern world away from its path of monotony, concrete streets and sidewalks, square buildings and cookie cutter houses, and 2 minute advertisements of smiling plastic people, is not some sort of nationalist revolt that ends in the seizing of government; that wouldn't even work anyways do to the momentum of prevailing ideas.  The world needs to be reset in chaos and anarchy, and people need to find new paths once the dust clears.  It's more fun that way, too, so it's a win-win situation for everyone involved (except for the Porker McBeefs or Bill Gateses of the world).


Most of the world is not like that. In most countries it's not hard to find a complete difference just a short drive away from any concrete jungle.  When I came to the US (I'm a student here, and can't wait to get the hell back home) I was surprised at how every house in a street looks the same. Individuality is truly a farce it would seem from this.

Anyway, how does something civil war fit in to what you're saying? I don't see how people can find new paths once the dust has cleared, simply because people can't seem to find ways to make the dust clear but keep on warring for decades.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 30, 2007, 11:21:49 AM
Quote

Most of the world is not like that. In most countries it's not hard to find a complete difference just a short drive away from any concrete jungle.  When I came to the US (I'm a student here, and can't wait to get the hell back home) I was surprised at how every house in a street looks the same. Individuality is truly a farce it would seem from this.


Well, I'm mostly speaking from an American perspective because I'm an American, and America has a lot of power and influence, and the rest of the world is going to follow suit anyways.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 30, 2007, 04:39:53 PM
Quote
You have to remember that a lot of the policies implemented by nazi germany could probably have been the orders of his underlings and not him directly.


Yes, and that national socialism was not invented solely by Hitler. Other great thinkers contributed to it, and when you look at it critically, you see it's no different than the ancient empires of Greece, which were probably humanity's peak.

Black metal isn't necessarily NS, but it isn't anti-NS. It does not believe in good and evil like Christians do. Even Tolkien transcended that. It believes in better things coming about through struggle for the whole, while Christianity, modern society and Summoning (apparently) believe in tolerating mediocrity until we all drown in overpopulation.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 30, 2007, 04:42:11 PM
Quote
White doesn't make right.


There are plenty of stupid white people who could go away without any loss to humanity. There are also misguided ones, like the ones bickering in this thread and totally missing the point. They need strong, smart leaders to oppress them and get them back on track.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on April 30, 2007, 04:45:55 PM
Quote
anyway take a look at lord of the rings. take a look at the orc and the haradrims with their oliphaunts that summoning fans rather indentify with than with the good guys. inst it obvious how close the are to more oriental inspired culture. sure tolkien never wanted to express political views in his book, but subconciously you can see very many similarties.


Yeah, Hitler believed the same things -- he recognized that Jews have an asiatic origin. But what of it? What matters is that each nation be its own people, and keep others out, or you end up with non-culture like in America. Is that what Summoning wants for humanity?

The asiatic invasion he was thinking of was that of the Mongols. Anyone remember that? A whole horde of squinty-eyed guys coming through Eastern Europe to attack the West, and getting stopped through massive sacrifice by the West, shortly before it got ravaged by the Black Death.

It'll happen again. While people sit around on their couches like little kings and talk about how horrible Nazism was, or how great it would be if Hitler liked jazz, the Chinese are getting ready for world domination. Overpopulation (a third world problem) is about to do us in. Pollution (something the Nazis worked hard to combat!) is rising, as is the amount of trash and junk cities we've strewn around. And what do any of you do?

Oh, fantasy... well, drugs are cheaper, and just as effective.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 30, 2007, 05:02:01 PM
Quote

Yes, and that national socialism was not invented solely by Hitler. Other great thinkers contributed to it, and when you look at it critically, you see it's no different than the ancient empires of Greece, which were probably humanity's peak.


Greece was very decentralized; it was primarily a bunch of city states with a common culture. NS Germany was heavily centralized and bureaucratic.

EDIT: Nation might not have been the best word to use.  I suppose it would be better to say they shared a common culture.  I modified the paragraph above to reflect this.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on April 30, 2007, 05:18:47 PM
Quote

Yes, and that national socialism was not invented solely by Hitler. Other great thinkers contributed to it, and when you look at it critically, you see it's no different than the ancient empires of Greece, which were probably humanity's peak.

Black metal isn't necessarily NS, but it isn't anti-NS. It does not believe in good and evil like Christians do. Even Tolkien transcended that. It believes in better things coming about through struggle for the whole, while Christianity, modern society and Summoning (apparently) believe in tolerating mediocrity until we all drown in overpopulation.



Uh... how did Tolkein transcend dualism?  LoTR is full of good vs evil dichotomies; Orcs are evil, Smeagol is corrupted by evil and is a crack addict, Sauron is evil, Wormtongue is evil and disgusting, Saruman is evil, evil things are disgusting, sadistic, and power hungry.  Frodo is good and pure, Samwise is good and pure, the Elves are good and beautiful and perfect and amazing and immortal (you can tell I was not a fan of them),  The dwarves are good and hardy, Gandalf is good and wise, Aragon is good and noble, etc. and in the end good triumphs over evil and everyone is happy.  In fact the only good guys who die in the triology are, I believe, Boromir and Theoden, while every evil character dies except Saruman (who is marginalized to nothing at the end).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: esoteric on May 01, 2007, 12:46:11 AM
Quote

I think Hitler gets too much credit.  You have to remember that a lot of the policies implemented by nazi germany could probably have been the orders of his underlings and not him directly.  It's a fallacy to attribute everything to a leader who doesn't micromanage everything.

His main problem was, beyond having ridiculous racial beliefs about his "master 'aryan' race" and whatnot, was that he was too influenced by capitalism and Henry Ford, and created a bureaucratic system that allowed for a lot of corruption and generalized insanity.


This is nonsense. At least read Mein Kampf, something that is from the horse's mouth.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 01, 2007, 03:14:02 AM
Quote
Do you think Hitler would have been Hitler in our age? People are as much products of their ancestors and environment, as of their time. Metal is a modern musical expression and to see history linearly is to be mistaken.

It's not the hair or the clothes that are relevant, but the music and the spirit itself. This is what differs modern conservatism from traditionalism: conservatives believe we can preserve tradition by dressing out in pagan clothes and mumble a few words from the Eddas. The traditionalists live the spirit of the tradition, regardless of superificial, external accessories that change with time. Expression and spirit are two different things, and even though they are bound to each other, one must realize that expression is a variable and not a constant, hence why we can create metal today that expresses what our people fought for over 2,000 years ago.

Swing was "whitified" but degenerate and that is why Hitler opposed it. White doesn't make right. Hitler celebrated Wagner and so did Nietzsche - and even though the two of them may have had different artistic conceptions of why Wagner was great, one thing bound them together: spirit, honour, heroism, tradition.


i never thought very much about the difference between traditionalist and conservatives, but actually the nazis call them selfs conservative for sure and suit also to your definition of it, and hitler was indeed conservative and as even modern nazis still see him as the most important guy in this movements they are also like that. just take a look at any serious kind of nazi organization, none of them have long hair, and they are even totally dressed and have similar haircuts as the people those times (or as "varg vikingers" has these days). sure there maybe some long haired nazis like some NSBM fans existing, but hardly in any real serious nazi organization.

"swing" was called "n-i-g-g-e-r jazz" by hitler and the regime. the did not like it because of the black roots. i did not hear anything about degeneration in their music, but the comparison between metal and jazz makes it clear that they would have seen rock and metal therefore as degenerated n-i-g-g-e-r music.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 01, 2007, 03:26:22 AM
Quote
Actually my ancestors had long hair, until Germanic social decorum was imposed upon them through imperialism. I think my ancestors would've loved metal, its alot like our native traditional music. often frenzied, poetic, frank, melodic.

Anyway, if metal is descended from the blues, and the blues from celtic music before that, surely metal is the product of my culture?

Nationalism doesnt mean staying stuck in the past, or dressing up and playing at being in olden times. It means living by the immortal spirit of ones culture instead of the transitory self indulgant crap modernity offers as a way of life.

Germany didnt invent nationalism. not all nationalism reflects the rigid, anally retentive, witch hunt outlook of the nazis. all you damn germanics are the same, you all think the world revolves around you.... that'd be that master race pathos again ;)

In all seriousness, I think the only attitude you should take to poltical groups is smile and treat them with complete indifference. art transcends politics. you possess the higher ground by being an artist. condescending to the futile bickering of politics is beneath you. keep up the great work.


you mix certain terms up. then you talk about the ancestors you mean the old german tribes i guess. but look at the nazis, they did not look like the old germanic tribes, they even supported the church and had a total different "outfit".  about the ancient traditional music, i dont really know what music you mean but anyway, if you would have played them black metal music they would not have thought "oh what a nice calm and melodic music", they would have said "oh what horrible noise". because you really have to understand black metal to consider it as melodic, whereas all other people don't see anything melodic in it at all;-)

about the bluse. i took at deeper look at those celtic roots and it seems to be true. fine to have some additional knowledge now. so i might change my words from roots to influences, because even it there beginning was celtic the black people in USA changed the face of it for sure, and without them metal would nowadays surely sound different, as any kind of influence changes the face of a music. maybe if the nazis would not have made so much march music summoning would also sound different for example. but what i try to say and what noone wants accepts is that even if you listen to music that sounds pure white it is still very often existing because it had non white influences.

and now you mix nationalism again with national socialism. i already explained that in a post before. there can be a huge difference. there can be nationalist who help other countries and cooperate with them. lots of my friends who are far more left and far more multi cultured than me call themselves as nationalists. its again a matter of arrogance if you are a nazi or a non right nationalist.

about smiling and shutting up. well thats a solution, but i guess a lot of people did that before the third reich appeared, and suddenly they stopped smiling. i don't expect that a regime like the third reich appears again, but i have a voice and i want to use it. i don't know why thats such a shock or so ridiculous for so many people in the black metal scene. i would rather feel like a coward if i keep on being silent despite the anger i have all those years about a scene working on its own erasement.



Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 01, 2007, 03:34:18 AM
Quote

If you look at the societies in The Lord Of The Rings, you can see that the strongest ones are actually very nationalistic. Each society has it's own culture, and interbreeding or migration is rare (and for elves, dwarfs and hobbits, impossible, which is why these are also succesful). Even so, the different societies still manage to work together for common good, to bring down the imperialistic evil ones.

This is an example of anti-racist pan-nationalism, even if much of Austria or anywhere is multi-racial, it can still work. You can still take what you have, remove the most obvious foreign and conflicting elements, and start to reverse the cultural and ethnic blurring of all nations, with clear ideals to aspire to, so we don't all end up the same (like orcs).


yes as mentioned before i understand also other forms of nationalism. and actually i think if there would be more nationalist that way that rather help each other and cooperate but still try to keep their nation free from other nations dependence there would be less immigrants btw. if imperialism in former times would not have happened then the original structures of the exploited countries would now still existing and they would be able to live on their own in their own country like they did thousands of years ago. but as i often mention the problem is always arrogance. the rich countries destroy the culture of that countries and now as they destroyed them they just say what a primitive folk they are, that can not even feed themselves.

that again what makes me so angry.
lots of people adoring the Nordic tribes get so angry about the Christians who destroyed their culture. but they don't ming that later their countries did the same by forming there colonies later and behaved much worser than the Christians those time.


Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 01, 2007, 03:37:52 AM
Quote

Ahhh you completely misunderstood what I said. There were a few board members here who were saying disrespectful things in this thread about you that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I was trying to point out that doing that kind of attack is a waste of time (mirroring what born for banning said).

Alot of the thread has been good, discussing the various points where we agree and disagree. I merely wanted to discourage the brainless attacks others were doing.

Thank you for your reply to the questions.


Oh sorry.
but you have to understand what kind of stress this forum is for me. i am writing in a forum where the great majority is against my opinions. thats exhausting and errors might appear, i guess you understand that (i feel like in cheap kung fu move where i am fighting against 20 people at the same time :)

so cool that you appreciate communication. i think this can never be wrong, and only lovers of dictatorships who prefer to hear only one single opinion in their beloved fascist regime might have problems with that;-)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on May 01, 2007, 04:24:53 AM
Quote
i did not hear anything about degeneration in their music, but the comparison between metal and jazz makes it clear that they would have seen rock and metal therefore as degenerated n-i-g-g-e-r music.


Actually, although this opinion is common, it's wrong. The Nazis tolerated some swing jazz, although they didn't like it, but they knew banning it would be too unpopular (like they failed to ban cigarettes but wanted to). They encouraged popular music which was close to Germanic folk, and would have had no problem with death and black metal. Slipknot and maybe rapist-era Gorgoroth would have been choking on cianide, but that's another story.

Also, I think you fail to note that this society tolerates only one opinion: that of tolerance. Our modern society is driven by the opinions of the masses and is utterly intolerant of any qualitative hierarchy, like that of aristocracy, caste, or even ability. It's slowly running itself into the ground. Watch, because in ten years Austria will look just like the USA. Then you'll reconsider your opinions.

I'm glad you've come down here, wish some of these shitheads would treat you with more respect, but the fundamental problem I have with your statements is this: they're ignorant. You make historical errors about the origin of instruments, about national socialism and about nationalism, and about the history of music. I wonder if you'd like to correct those?

Oh, and your analysis of third world cultures is mistaken... they were failing on their own (read Spengler, or better yet, read Aurelius). I don't like capitalism and democracy, which was what empowered low-caste Europeans to go plunder those countries, but you seem to like them just fine since you're defending them, so I doubt we'll get anywhere there.

I think the most valid point you make is one that I've stressed to my "NSy" friends over the years: that honest nationalism doesn't need to get caught up in hate. I don't see the point in beating up Turks; I see the point in sending them back to Turkey. Same with African-Americans here. I don't see the point in hating them or hurting them, but I know for my people to thrive, we need to separate.

The easy decisions in life aren't worth a thing. It's the hard issues that are worthy, and also fun. Maybe you would like to look again at your assumptions in light of some of the knowledge here?

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 01, 2007, 05:32:39 AM
"I'm glad you've come down here, wish some of these shitheads would treat you with more respect"

For while I thought you were insulting him/being sarcastic here. Add an 'I' before the wish so he doesn't get confused like I did ;)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 01, 2007, 05:37:44 AM
"Oh, and your analysis of third world cultures is mistaken... they were failing on their own (read Spengler, or better yet, read Aurelius). I don't like capitalism and democracy, which was what empowered low-caste Europeans to go plunder those countries, but you seem to like them just fine since you're defending them, so I doubt we'll get anywhere there. "

Maybe so, but this is irrelevant. They are over here nowadays largely because of the liberalist guilt that followed imperialism. Otherwise, all countries would be better off when developing nationalism.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dylar on May 01, 2007, 10:03:31 AM
Quote

no there is a misunderstanding
i never said that my music is reserved for people with my opinion. i just wanted to make my opinions public and see what other people say to it.


Fair enough.

Quote
of course the music of summoning sounds totally "white". but thats not the point. i am trying to say that music can sound white even if it has lots of non white elements inside. that actually something a nazis would not have accepted.


Neither would the jazz fans of 1933.  On the other hand, I can't help but suspect that, had the National Socialist leadership grown up in another time, they would have found metal, with its classical allusions and core of Germanic idealism, to their liking.  There's a certain  

This whole line of reasoning (and we've all seen it many times before) strikes me as either uninformed or actively dishonest, because it ignores the actual historical context of the Nazi antipathy towards jazz.  While its racial (and national) origins contributed to their distaste, their real objections were two-fold:

1.) Jazz was emblematic of the cultural humiliation that followed Versailles, an abject borrowing by a conqured people from the 'culture' (to such extent as the US could be said to have a culture) of their conquerors.

2.) Jazz was the music of the pseudo-'elite' of the Weimar Republic, and the Nazis, for obvious reasons, wanted a complete break with that era of cultural decline and abject national failure.

Quote
in the third reich for example swing was not welcome at all, although it was a pure white version of jazz and sounded different from the original jazz.


Swing, sometimes called 'big band,' certainly had some important white and/or Jewish contributors (notably Glen Miller, Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman), but its originators and most emblematic performers were black men like Count Basie, Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington.





Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on May 01, 2007, 01:38:53 PM
Greetings to all!
I think that its good for band to be detached from most obvious political movements. Most NS bands or on the other hand punk/hc/grind became tools to spread various beliefs attached to political scenes. Effect is hate propaganda/dumb protest-songs. But political message is most visible to us in bands that have nationalist stance while we almost ignore communist/liberal/egalitarian/anarchistic/pro-homosexual statements. Values reppresented by the latter become so vide-world spread and common in most societies that they are seen as the only way we can live. In fact liberal/democratic groups and their musical scenes are more and more radical and oppressive against certain beliefs.
They preach tolerance to all those most shitty "differences" and in the same time despise
people for not following their brand of group thinking.

To me this lyric by Brutal Truth is more clear ideologicaly(leftist) manifestation than Infester's(racist or maybe NS) verses in vein of "repulsive ebony flesh":

ANTI-HOMOPHOBE
--------------

Ignorant in thought
Distorts your twisted values
Break your ancient chains
And part with the ways of the past
You don't have the right
To force your own opinion
You don't understand
So you have to lash

Anti-homophobe

We believe in freedom
Whatever turns you on
Life is short and full of woe
So you have yourself a blast
I may not be gay
But I don't care if you are
Live your life in peace
And fuck them if they laugh

Its from their official website.

In my opinion Brutal Truth(while i enjoy their early albums and they somewhat transcend grind) are when compared to Infester less artistic if someone want to rate it this way. But it's Infester who "were blacklisted for their political beliefs" even by Anus.

It's just a bad habbit when somebody see one extremity and stay blind for other.

To Protector:I think that You would really enjoy Infester if You give it a try.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 01, 2007, 04:55:44 PM
I don't know why people even use the word n-*-g-g-e-r anymore. It brands you as a dumbass instantly.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on May 01, 2007, 05:35:26 PM
Maybe behind some of NS bands stand something more than politics. Of course those who sing about Hitler or NSDAP and make poor oi! or hc with black elements in order to amuse skins at concerts should be reject.
But maybe some of them are just fed up with this form of liberal society, its values(or virtually lack of values), failings of democracy and want oppose something extreme to it, something with greater meaning like ancestry, heritage, heroism, nationalism. There is some analogy between them and for example Slayer who adopt ocultistic symbols, inverted crosses and wrote "satanistic" lyrics as a extremity opposed to symbols of christianity to make clear statement like: we had enough of christian weakness, hypocrisy or oppression, we're about something other than christianity. They as we all know weren't satanists by any standards. But if you want  clear statement use extremes to make it clear.You probably end up as being wrong accused but fuck that! It's extreme metal!
Hating christians is a obvious cliché of metal genre because it is accepted not only by metalheads but also large part of society. I doubt that there is still any real emotion behind it. Still sharing some ideas with NS or ANUS brand of racism is banned.
Still Jew is a Jew and Gypsy is Gypsy thanks to nationalism within their groups. They have their tradition, national identity and they don't want assimilate with others. I see this as a strenght which enable them to survive albeit they doesn't have their country for so many years. This so caled chosen people are greatest racists on Earth. But they just taking care of themselves. Everyone else is acting like fuckin' hippies or worse instead of taking lesson of "extreme" worldview that claim that nationalism or at last some components of it are worthy. Metalheads should particularly but istead they are under influence of "tolerant" society groupthinking in same way as people were under christian moral boundaries few decades ago when inverted cross shocked mainstream audience.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on May 02, 2007, 06:46:30 AM
Quote
But maybe some of them are just fed up with this form of liberal society, its values(or virtually lack of values), failings of democracy and want oppose something extreme to it, something with greater meaning like ancestry, heritage, heroism, nationalism. There is some analogy between them and for example Slayer who adopt ocultistic symbols, inverted crosses and wrote "satanistic" lyrics as a extremity opposed to symbols of christianity to make clear statement like: we had enough of christian weakness, hypocrisy or oppression, we're about something other than christianity.


I think that's a good summary. People don't join Nazi cults to beat up Turks and Negroes. They join because they see that our society is a blind herdrush toward slow death.

And it's boring... and the stupid always prevail over the smart... the callow over the open... the fearful over the fearless. It's an inversion of all good things, and it must be destroyed.

As soon as stupid leftists stop fighting cartoon rightists and realize the real enemy is within, we'll get somewhere.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on May 02, 2007, 06:55:16 AM
From the 2600 mailing list (http://www.hou2600.org/):

Quote
And then democracy comes into being after the poor have conquered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some, while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and power; and this is the form of government in which the magistrates are commonly elected by lot.

Yes, he said, that is the nature of democracy, whether the revolution has been effected by arms, or whether fear has caused the opposite party to withdraw.

And now what is their manner of life, and what sort of a government have they? for as the government is, such will be the man.

...

Yes, I said, he lives from day to day indulging the appetite of the hour; and sometimes he is lapped in drink and strains of the flute; then he becomes a water-drinker, and tries to get thin; then he takes a turn at gymnastics; sometimes idling and neglecting everything, then once more living the life of a philosopher; often he-is busy with politics, and starts to his feet and says and does whatever comes into his head; and, if he is emulous of any one who is a warrior, off he is in that direction, or of men of business, once more in that. His life has neither law nor order; and this distracted existence he terms joy and bliss and freedom; and so he goes on.

Yes, he replied, he is all liberty and equality.
Yes, I said; his life is motley and manifold and an epitome of the lives of many; --he answers to the State which we described as fair and spangled. And many a man and many a woman will take him for their pattern, and many a constitution and many an example of manners is contained in him.

Just so.
Let him then be set over against democracy; he may truly be called the democratic man.

Let that be his place, he said.
Last of all comes the most beautiful of all, man and State alike, tyranny and the tyrant; these we have now to consider.

Quite true, he said.
Say then, my friend, in what manner does tyranny arise? --that it has a democratic origin is evident.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.9.viii.html

the only solution to democracy -- a sure route to enlightened tyranny --
is competent power to replace the void of the poor/masses who vote for
their desires, not reality.

i started life with a fair amount of anarchic spirit, but have learned that
such things are abused, and by their very design (boundary conditions)
encourage corruption and weakness, and lead to tyranny

the people rule... and it is their desires that empower the corporate
state, the tyrannical governments and the lack of culture. each individual
working for his or her own selfishness creates an empire of selfishness.

can democracy define itself in terms of itself? no: it is the state of
no-direction.

"the enemy's within!" - FEAR


Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on May 02, 2007, 05:39:50 PM
Quote
but you have to understand what kind of stress this forum is for me. i am writing in a forum where the great majority is against my opinions. thats exhausting and errors might appear, i guess you understand that (i feel like in cheap kung fu move where i am fighting against 20 people at the same time


Hah, I know how you feel, ( due to my rampant internet trolling in places I'm unwelcome) but this forum (despite it's repuation, heh heh) is not as bad as it may seem.  There are a lot of people seemingly trying to "convert" you to nationalism (lol) so just take it easy; as long as you don't pimp out super retarded ideas like "everyone is an equal human being" or PC garbage then you're fine.  If all else fails, try a couple of shots of whiskey before you post.... it works for me ;)

I may have posted shit about you before  (which I deleted because I now feel it wa unfair "criticism") because I can kind of see where you're coming from (especially after you alluded to wanting to counter the nazi tendencies of a lot of bands which could lead BM into an area where nazism is the norm, which I can totally understand), although I don't really agree with how you came about expressing your anti-nazi stance.  It could've been done in a more tasteful manner, in my opinon, as well as a few of your statements being overtly simplistic or wrong, especially regarding the opinion of fascists (and I'm somewhat of an anarchist...).  I'll get into them now.

Statments such as "metal has no white roots" are ridiculous and really wrong; especially since the first metal bands were white (Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, etc....).  While some or a lot of the  instruments were inspired or came from other cultures, it's still a ridiculous assertion.  Other members here can deal with it considering my history of music extends only to 80's and 90's metal.

Also, you should probably get someone with a better grasp of English to edit your statement; you'll get less opponents that way and poor english kind of makes you come across as a dumbass (whether or not you like that fact, it's true), so do that ASAP.

Quote
-      slavonic people where not considered as aryan race by hitler, and all of those polish NSBM black metal bands who think he was just wrong and nazis love the polish people shall check the lyrics of the most famous german nazi rock band "landser" called "polakentango". polish people are pure scum for real german nazis. if you are from poland better be proud about great artists like "Stanislaw Lem" or "Zdzislaw Beksinski" than belief in any false nazi propagandas.


This is poor logic considering that the nazis of the 20's - 40's are quite different than the modern day ones, and thus the voice of groups like Landser means nothing.  However, you're correct in the nazis loathing Slavs, but your logic is invalid.  I'd point to his speeches where he implied that Polish leadership was German (thus further implying that Poles are incompetent) and some of the statements in Hitler's Table Talk (which may or may not be accurate).

(Also it's cool you're a fan of Beksinki :))

Quote
-      if you think you are an individualist or rebel because you like fascism then you are wrong. there is no space left for individualism in fascist regimes. this goes for nazi germany as well as ex soviet union. fascism means to follow orders if you are not a leader. you just have to be a working element in the huge fascist system - thinking for yourself is a disturbing element for this system.


I think you're incorrect here as well, as you fail to make a distinction between "individuality" and "individualism."  Individualism is the belief that the individual comes before the collective whole, whereas individuality is the uniqueness of an individual regarding personality traits or their abilities.  Individualism is pretty stupid considering that most people are rather dopey and thus putting them before everyone else is a bad idea; wouldn't you think so, too?  I don't think fascists every had a major problem with individuality insofar it didn't cross the borders into individualism.

I don't think fascism means that one should follow orders if they're not a superior; that's a bit simplistic.  For example, in the days before the entire mess of the modern world there was rather authoritarian leadership; kings, queens, emperors, and etc.  Obviously what they said was listened to before anyone else, but that's how leadership is, isn't it?  Why would leadership even exist if nobody could ever have authority over someone else?  It defeats the purpose of leadership!

Hitler and Mussolini failed because they thought bureaucracy could save them (where it could not), but fascism is really a modern extension of the pre-democracy days, and it's really quite romantic, although flawed by it's modernistic twists and it thinking goosestepping and spiffy uniforms solves anything.

Quote
-      nazis leaders dont care about the people of their folk, they just care for symbols like flags and their personal advantages. a real nazi leader does not mind if 1000 germans die on battlefield as long as the flag does not get damaged and the leaders can live in luxury. while thousands of people fought in a war freezing and with hardly anythign to eat, hitler and his friends lived in luxury until the end.


This is another simplistic statement; I really do doubt many leaders didn't care about the Germans... Hitler especially, considering he was willing to go to jail for it.  The reason many soldiers went without food was due to the problems supplying the soldiers, a common problem in many wars.

By no means do I like the nazis (I'm ethnically Polish and obviously have an invested interests in being anti-nazi) but I'd rather truth be told, because it's pointless to let inveracities become dominant.

Quote

-      i prefer to be proud about things i did or am responsible for, but i never ever could feel any pride for things i could not even decide. i can be proud about my music for example, but never that i was born in austria. i am of course happy to live in a country like austria instead of any poor countries, but i am definitely not proud about that. it seems for me as if nazis have nothing else to be proud of then the coincidence that they where born in their father-land.


Why should you be concerned in what people are proud in?  Additionally, your statement essentially says that one cannot be proud of their own children, and if you think about that that's quite contrary to human nature, yes?

Quote
support total freedom in speech and thought, and even a nazi should be free to say whatever he thinks. for me forbidding special thoughts or opinons does not fit into a democratic society. forbidding opinions turns them to a taboo, what attracts most of the young metalheads very much. it makes them feel like real rebels to break those taboos. i want that those taboos never even appear.


As I mentioned before, this is against your decision to remove the nazi video from youtube.  While I can understand that, it kind of works against your statement when you say one thing, and do another.  Freedom of speech is kind of hyped up and really, it's foolish to allow speech one feels is stupid.  Let's be honest here;  none of us want stupid, moronic speech to be held to any respect in the realm of huma thought.

Anyways, I'm pretty drunk when I made this post but I felt It'd bring some good discussion, so I posted it anyways :).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 02, 2007, 06:09:41 PM
Stanislaw Lem was Jewish, for those who care.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 03, 2007, 11:09:54 PM
Quote

Actually, although this opinion is common, it's wrong. The Nazis tolerated some swing jazz, although they didn't like it, but they knew banning it would be too unpopular (like they failed to ban cigarettes but wanted to). They encouraged popular music which was close to Germanic folk, and would have had no problem with death and black metal. Slipknot and maybe rapist-era Gorgoroth would have been choking on cianide, but that's another story.

Also, I think you fail to note that this society tolerates only one opinion: that of tolerance. Our modern society is driven by the opinions of the masses and is utterly intolerant of any qualitative hierarchy, like that of aristocracy, caste, or even ability. It's slowly running itself into the ground. Watch, because in ten years Austria will look just like the USA. Then you'll reconsider your opinions.

I'm glad you've come down here, wish some of these shitheads would treat you with more respect, but the fundamental problem I have with your statements is this: they're ignorant. You make historical errors about the origin of instruments, about national socialism and about nationalism, and about the history of music. I wonder if you'd like to correct those?

Oh, and your analysis of third world cultures is mistaken... they were failing on their own (read Spengler, or better yet, read Aurelius). I don't like capitalism and democracy, which was what empowered low-caste Europeans to go plunder those countries, but you seem to like them just fine since you're defending them, so I doubt we'll get anywhere there.

I think the most valid point you make is one that I've stressed to my "NSy" friends over the years: that honest nationalism doesn't need to get caught up in hate. I don't see the point in beating up Turks; I see the point in sending them back to Turkey. Same with African-Americans here. I don't see the point in hating them or hurting them, but I know for my people to thrive, we need to separate.

The easy decisions in life aren't worth a thing. It's the hard issues that are worthy, and also fun. Maybe you would like to look again at your assumptions in light of some of the knowledge here?




no thats not true. swing was even called "j-e-w-i-s n-i-g-g-e-r music" and in most pubs there was a sign saying "dancing to swing forbidden". anyway no matte if it was allowed or not. it was still considered as "n-i-g-g-e-r" music although it was a white version of it. therefore metal music would also have been considered as n-i-g-g-e-r music. anyway music in the thrid reich was rather meant to be positive as this regime and they prefered merry march music giving people positive power. they was never any kind of dark or negative music wellcomed as well.

no thats not true.
you confuse what the television want to make the people think and whats reality. hardly any regmine nowadays is tolerant. they are just tolerant to ideas that suit their economy. or did you ever hear "osama bin laden" talking in USA television for example?

but anyway it is stil not real fascism. because in real fascism you even get to prison if you listen to radio shows that are not controlled by the government. the nazis called it "feindsender". so all who think that i am "living in a box" should rather thing about the fact that in fascism you are even forced to live in  abox, because everthing not suiting to their ideologies is forbidden.

and you are right and i already told that whole europe is always following USA, but i dont understand what you want to say with that.

and actually those thing are just a sign for me that USA is more and more turning to a fascistic country (specially since patriots act). that for me not a aspect of democracy at all. so all fascist should be happy, you all have more and more control from the goverment and thats was fascism means.

well if you tell me an error and i can prove it i do it, but just to tell me i make error not giving me details is not enough.  which errors i made about the origins of the instruments for example?

sorry i really dont understand what you mean.
in imperialism people came to lands like africa and enslaved them. they also took black from africa as slave. do you really want to tell me that that is not a huge damage for country and its culture, or did i understand something wrong?

about nationalism.
i dont know why people dont notice what i wrote about nationalism, it is different to national socialism. i wrote this a couple of time already.

actually tha nazi wehere not even real nationalist. because a nationalist cares for his own country and does not hang around with his army in countries he has nothing lost. a realy nationalist would not try to conquer the world ("heute deutschland, morgen die ganze welt"). he cares about his countrie and was to be independent from others. the third reich for example was making buisnes deals with IBM during the second world war. its all a hypocritical s-h-i-t.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 03, 2007, 11:19:52 PM
Quote

Fair enough.


Neither would the jazz fans of 1933.  On the other hand, I can't help but suspect that, had the National Socialist leadership grown up in another time, they would have found metal, with its classical allusions and core of Germanic idealism, to their liking.  There's a certain  

This whole line of reasoning (and we've all seen it many times before) strikes me as either uninformed or actively dishonest, because it ignores the actual historical context of the Nazi antipathy towards jazz.  While its racial (and national) origins contributed to their distaste, their real objections were two-fold:

1.) Jazz was emblematic of the cultural humiliation that followed Versailles, an abject borrowing by a conqured people from the 'culture' (to such extent as the US could be said to have a culture) of their conquerors.

2.) Jazz was the music of the pseudo-'elite' of the Weimar Republic, and the Nazis, for obvious reasons, wanted a complete break with that era of cultural decline and abject national failure.

 

Swing, sometimes called 'big band,' certainly had some important white and/or Jewish contributors (notably Glen Miller, Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman), but its originators and most emblematic performers were black men like Count Basie, Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington.


the strange thing is that people seem to see modern nazis as some kind of tollerant and flexible iideology. but they are narrow minded. most people here got intot this nazi movement because of varg vikingers, i am very sure about that, so i think they did not get the connection to the real nazis. but i am a person who was borin in the land wher hitler was born and i think i can realise better what real neo nazi want.

you thought about jazz and Versailles has surely some right aspects.

sorry i did not understand you second point. can you explain it again.

and about your last line.
well thats again what i say about rock music. it was surely white but when you look back in the history you see that it at least passed scene where 95% where blacks. i dont see much difference between sing and rock in that aspect.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 03, 2007, 11:22:44 PM
Quote


Ancestors: my ancestors werent Germanic  they were Celtic; Gaelic more specifically.

Yes, superficially black metal is distorted and noisy, but underneath the glossing of 'grimness' it has a very strong sense of harmony and melody. A bit like bagpipe music, dont you think?

For all its cosmopolitan credentials, blues was little more than a dumbing down of celtic musicality. Metal, having been infused with some very continental classicist aesthetic sensibilities, you might say has been brought back to something more akin to its Celtic roots. Not to take anything away from what Germanic culture has done for metal, ofcourse. I bet if Wagner had ever writen music for a céilidh band it would've sounded a lot like metal.


the purpose of smiling and ignoring the various political groups clamouring to use and abuse you and your music would be, besides to display your superiority over them as an artist, for the purpose of denying them the attention they hoped to create for themselves in the first place.



yes i already explained that black metal is harmonic in most cases. but as i also explained only real metal heads can see that. no person not familiar with this music will see it. and i am TOTALLY sure that non of those super conservative nazis will ever see that, i think your image about the old and the neo nazis is not connected enought to reality.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 03, 2007, 11:54:39 PM
Quote

Hah, I know how you feel, ( due to my rampant internet trolling in places I'm unwelcome) but this forum (despite it's repuation, heh heh) is not as bad as it may seem.  There are a lot of people seemingly trying to "convert" you to nationalism (lol) so just take it easy; as long as you don't pimp out super retarded ideas like "everyone is an equal human being" or PC garbage then you're fine.  If all else fails, try a couple of shots of whiskey before you post.... it works for me ;)

I may have posted shit about you before  (which I deleted because I now feel it wa unfair "criticism") because I can kind of see where you're coming from (especially after you alluded to wanting to counter the nazi tendencies of a lot of bands which could lead BM into an area where nazism is the norm, which I can totally understand), although I don't really agree with how you came about expressing your anti-nazi stance.  It could've been done in a more tasteful manner, in my opinon, as well as a few of your statements being overtly simplistic or wrong, especially regarding the opinion of fascists (and I'm somewhat of an anarchist...).  I'll get into them now.

Statments such as "metal has no white roots" are ridiculous and really wrong; especially since the first metal bands were white (Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, etc....).  While some or a lot of the  instruments were inspired or came from other cultures, it's still a ridiculous assertion.  Other members here can deal with it considering my history of music extends only to 80's and 90's metal.

Also, you should probably get someone with a better grasp of English to edit your statement; you'll get less opponents that way and poor english kind of makes you come across as a dumbass (whether or not you like that fact, it's true), so do that ASAP.


This is poor logic considering that the nazis of the 20's - 40's are quite different than the modern day ones, and thus the voice of groups like Landser means nothing.  However, you're correct in the nazis loathing Slavs, but your logic is invalid.  I'd point to his speeches where he implied that Polish leadership was German (thus further implying that Poles are incompetent) and some of the statements in Hitler's Table Talk (which may or may not be accurate).

(Also it's cool you're a fan of Beksinki :))


I think you're incorrect here as well, as you fail to make a distinction between "individuality" and "individualism."  Individualism is the belief that the individual comes before the collective whole, whereas individuality is the uniqueness of an individual regarding personality traits or their abilities.  Individualism is pretty stupid considering that most people are rather dopey and thus putting them before everyone else is a bad idea; wouldn't you think so, too?  I don't think fascists every had a major problem with individuality insofar it didn't cross the borders into individualism.

I don't think fascism means that one should follow orders if they're not a superior; that's a bit simplistic.  For example, in the days before the entire mess of the modern world there was rather authoritarian leadership; kings, queens, emperors, and etc.  Obviously what they said was listened to before anyone else, but that's how leadership is, isn't it?  Why would leadership even exist if nobody could ever have authority over someone else?  It defeats the purpose of leadership!

Hitler and Mussolini failed because they thought bureaucracy could save them (where it could not), but fascism is really a modern extension of the pre-democracy days, and it's really quite romantic, although flawed by it's modernistic twists and it thinking goosestepping and spiffy uniforms solves anything.


This is another simplistic statement; I really do doubt many leaders didn't care about the Germans... Hitler especially, considering he was willing to go to jail for it.  The reason many soldiers went without food was due to the problems supplying the soldiers, a common problem in many wars.

By no means do I like the nazis (I'm ethnically Polish and obviously have an invested interests in being anti-nazi) but I'd rather truth be told, because it's pointless to let inveracities become dominant.


Why should you be concerned in what people are proud in?  Additionally, your statement essentially says that one cannot be proud of their own children, and if you think about that that's quite contrary to human nature, yes?


As I mentioned before, this is against your decision to remove the nazi video from youtube.  While I can understand that, it kind of works against your statement when you say one thing, and do another.  Freedom of speech is kind of hyped up and really, it's foolish to allow speech one feels is stupid.  Let's be honest here;  none of us want stupid, moronic speech to be held to any respect in the realm of huma thought.

Anyways, I'm pretty drunk when I made this post but I felt It'd bring some good discussion, so I posted it anyways :).


thanks about the advice with the whiskey, but what you think i do already each time before i post;-)
well stress is nothing negative for me, it just might confuse me some times. actually l like stress, it is some kind of natural speed an with stress i can even make slow music like summoning better than if i am tired for example. so the stress this forum causes i just a benefit for summoning music:-)

no problem, we are in a metal forum. harsh arguments are accepted there and it ok. the only thing that pisses me really of are all those people here (specially at the beginning) who have no arguments or facts at all and just assume that i want to be political correct or sell more or any other kind of empy bla bla bla. noone here knows me enought to see the reasons why i post this stuff and empty assumptions as just stupid nothing more. people who know me better know that i smply get sooooooooooooooooo damn pissed of about nazi movements that i often is the only topic once i get into it. i dont g-i-v-e a fuck about any political correctnes. and all people who get so exited whenever they see political incorrectes shall rather listen to hip hop. there you here political incorrect words like "b-i-t-c-h", or "m-o-t-h-e-r-f-u-c-k-e-r" all the time;-)

about the "roots". ok maybe the reason of this that igerman is my native language and i am not good enough in english. when i said "roots" i mean that metal derived from blues that mainly black even if it has celtic influences. and without blues there would not have been metal for sure. ok you are right, i should maybe change it with "the history of metal and the styles it came from was heavily influenced by black music culture". whould that be ok for you?

but anyway even if it is extreme i think metal heads could also accept it as a provocation from me. they love provoking so much, why not for a single time swallow some provocation that goes against6 the common black metal ideologies. i wrote befor "my statements are political incorrect towards the black metal scene";-)

about my english.
yes your are right it sucks:-)
but it is not only the english, most of my mistakes here in this form are just a matter of the speed i write. i am not a very patient person when i am typing.
but i think that people who are really interested in arguments and contents dont care so much about some superficial things like correct english. anyway all english corrections here are welcome, i dont know enough people who speak native english.

once again. modern neo nazis still adore "mein kampf" and see it as the source of their ideology. they only want to pretend to be more modern and opened to get more younger audience. they are like the church in europe. acting much more tollerant to be more accepted as they could not survie in the fascistic way they acted all the centuries before. but nazis always focused very much on propaganda and always knew very well how to present themselve as good as possible (actually that goes for all fascistic dictatorships). but you can be d-a-m-n sure that they would immediately change their face as soon as they would rule!!!!!!

yes beksinski rules, thats why i once wrote an email to him asking him if he agrees that i use one of his paintings as cover for my electronic project "ice ages" and he kindly agreed.

well  i also dont like people to much to dont stop talkiing waht great individuals they are, because in most cases specially such people are no individual people. but as mentioned beofre the word "different" is almost the same as "bad" in any fascisitic regmie. and once again radio shows not controlled by the regime where forbidden and people got to prision if they listened to them. i thin you again confuse fascistic leaders with normal ones, if not please tell me in which fascistic regme it was allowed to say total contrary things to the ideologies of the regime.

well fascism and dictatorship would be fine if the dictator would do exactly the things i want;-) this would avoid expensive votes and things could be done faster. but the problem is that the chance is very slim that a dictator will have exactloy the whishes you have. and at least after this dictator died and some friend or a son of him starts to rule then things get f-u-c-k-e-d up, and soo the high position guys start ruling their country for their personal benefits, cause there is no opposition party around that might controll them.

for me the problem is rather that we dont have enought democracy and all talks abou democracy specially from USA are just super hypocritical s-h-i-t, thats why propably most people here are pissed of about this word.

USA always talks in a very hypocritical way how much they love democracy and want free countries, but in reality they dont give a f-u-c-k about democracy or freedom. they just use this hypocrisy in oder to start wars like in IRAK.

And most decisions taken by big organization like the WTO etc are totally independent from democracy. none here can change anything.

Sure there where problems suplying the soldiers, but you have to understand. at the frontline to stalingrad the higer people in the army even had champagne whereas the others starved. so instead of transporting boxes of champagne to the frontline they could have transported some more bread, but they are just a-s-s-holes towards their soldiers.

you can be proud bout your children because it is your responsibility to grow them up and if you fail they can turn to a-s-s-holes for example:-)

well this guy can publish the same video with other music i will not have a problem with it, but he can not use my music. thats a big difference!!!
i dont want to be associated with that, and as the all scenes are full of idiots i know that lots of them would associate summoning with nazi movements.

drunken posts are well come. in most cases they ar e more open minded than sober ones. i also just drunk some alcohl although it is only 11:00 a.m here:-)

anyway i hope after you are sober you will not regrett that you removed the harsh post from you and add them back ;-)


Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 03, 2007, 11:55:57 PM
Quote
Stanislaw Lem was Jewish, for those who care.


ah thanks i did not know that he was j-e-w-i-s-h

btw is the word j-e-w-i-s-h already a political incorrect word. they this stupid server does not allow this word?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 03, 2007, 11:59:32 PM
Something additional

Why do all think that fascism is such a great enemy of countries like USA. when i think about the last decades i see that USA never had problems with cooperating with fascistic regimes. they even support them very often if they have the same interests. they did not mind supporting the fascistic pinochet regmie. they did not mind even supporting sadam hussein most of the time. even racism was not such a problem as even the "klue klux klan" was allowed for some time in USA.

but do you know what USA fear most. any kind of  left anti capitalistic ideology in the world because this is the the greatest enemy of capitalism, whereas nazis alway could cope this that quite well.
just take a look at Nicaragua for example. USA was afraid of the socialistic Sandinists and therefore supported the right terrorists (they called them freedom fighters) to fight any tendency i that direction and finally due to terror reached their aims. And imagine the time of "Mc Carthy" where people in USA that had at least a bit connection to any thing left where almost hunted by the government. there was never such a political action against fascism in USA. USA does not mind dictators, disrespect to human rights, lack of freedom; the only thing they don't like are systems that don't suit to their capitalistic system and that don't support the super rich friends of the government.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on May 04, 2007, 01:02:32 AM
Quote
but i am a person who was borin in the land wher hitler was born and i think i can realise better what real neo nazi want


Lol, that's actually a racist thing to say. Which is btw what I think about racism: everybody is racist to a certain degree. You talk about racism as if it's something exclusively for white people. As if racism is somewhere between adolf hitler and a bunch of drunk rednecks with bad haircuts. But let's try to look at racism as a world-wide phenomenon. Then we can see for instance that the famous socialist leader Pol Pot persecuted the Vietnamese. We can see Hutus and Tutsis killing each other in Rwanda. There is the Turkish 'grey wolves' movement, there is deep-rooted racism in Japan, there are Afro-Americans committing hatecrimes against white Americans... even in my own neighborhood there are north-Africans causing plenty of trouble mostly to white people because colored people can be racist too.

Quote
hardly any regmine nowadays is tolerant. they are just tolerant to ideas that suit their economy. or did you ever hear "osama bin laden" talking in USA television for example?


Replace "regime" with "culture" Every culture is intolerant towards others because they know diluting their culture with others will mean the end of their culture. Only "multi-culture" seeks to assimilate other cultures and why? To turn it into a product and sell it, to exploit other nationalities. If you are against imperialism you should be against immigration, because what they are doing right now is simply a modern form of slavery. If our governments would want to do other countries a favor they would try to fix the problems of that country, but instead they let large corporations try to steal the most capable workers only to exploit them.

Quote
but anyway it is stil not real fascism. because in real fascism you even get to prison if you listen to radio shows that are not controlled by the government


Do you think Varg would still be in prison if he hadn't expressed his ideas so explicitly? It's funny that you bring up Varg Vikernes as an example of why you feel you should speak out against fascist tendencies. No offense but you almost make it sound as if the entire black metal movement is about to build statues for Varg. Many people that I speak to who are into black metal distance themselves from what Varg says. Even Varg himself has had to rectify some of his previous writings, and this was actually what I was referring to when I said that raising politics to this level only raises more issues. To put it simply: Varg went through an incredible amount of shit simply because he expressed his unpopular ideas to a large crowd. Holding him up as an example of why people should speak out against racism doesn't really work for me.

Quote
in imperialism people came to lands like africa and enslaved them. they also took black from africa as slave. do you really want to tell me that that is not a huge damage for country and its culture, or did i understand something wrong?


The Africans that were made slaves were mostly captured by other Africans. The thing is: there was already slavery in Africa before imperialism. Take the pyramids for instance: everybody agrees that they are historical wonders, no one is saying "think of all the poor slaves that died to build these things for their decadent pharaohs." Do you think the white traders would go deep into Africa to capture slaves? That would have been too dangerous for them. Instead they simply traded with the local African tribes who lived in the coastal areas and bought the slaves that those tribes had already taken. So you see slave trade isn't an exclusively white business and most of the slaves were already slaves. Also many of the guards and watchmen on the cotton-plantations were black. And the slaves in Suriname were actually released after some years of duty, and now they make up most of the population there (a funny detail to this is that the Suriname people who protest against slavery would not have been born if slavery had not existed, the same can be said for the Afro-Americans, a Suriname girl told me about this detail btw)

I accept slavery as something that was common in those days, and as something that is not exclusively done by white people. I know you (Protector) were not saying that but the stereotype was beginning to surface so I felt I had to point this out.

And most of the third world countries have been destroyed by civil war and aids, not because "the white people left them that way" suggesting that is ridiculous. They were given their independence and messed up due to their own corruption. Oh, and of course if the US intervenes it's bad (Iraq) but if the US doesn't intervene it's bad too (Rwanda) so how exactly are white people to blame for what still happens in those countries? This whole putting the blame on white people is not realistic, it's racist. Acknowledging that some people are limited and are for instance not ready yet to lead their own country is not racist, it's realistic.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on May 04, 2007, 01:40:13 AM
Now to completely wipe the board on the whole "foreign influences in music" argument based on the descent of certain instruments:

The potato is originally from Peru. Yet the potato is served in a variety of cultural dishes. 'Sauerkraut und kartoffeln" is not considered as something typically Peruvian. So why would metal be "n-i-g-g-e-r" music even if it features Spanish guitars and Arab percussion? The sand from the Sahara desert makes its way on the wind into my country, should I try to separate the African sand from my native Dutch sand because otherwise our beaches wouldn't be Dutch anymore? The answer seems obvious to me. And it also seems obvious to me that the argument that "if an instrument isn't really white you are not really playing white music" is ludicrous. May all people who once took this point of view discard it for what it is: an argument that appeals to extremism but not to rationalism.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: neoclassical on May 04, 2007, 02:12:45 AM
Quote
the strange thing is that people seem to see modern nazis as some kind of tollerant and flexible iideology. but they are narrow minded. most people here got intot this nazi movement because of varg vikingers, i am very sure about that, so i think they did not get the connection to the real nazis. but i am a person who was borin in the land wher hitler was born and i think i can realise better what real neo nazi want.

You accept and take for granted the post-war definitions and interpretations of National Socialism and Fascism, which are not only fed to us by the media but also by "popular consensus", which includes our parents, friends, co-workers, schoolmates, etc., who, in social situations, force us to accept these interpretations, which all have been undertaken from a capitalist and/or communist viewpoint. Everyone in a group of such people, who does not follow the "popular consensus", who does not take part in this mass-delusion, is ostracized and hated.

We oppose this approach to truth. We acknowledge that a doctrine and its implementation are not one and the same, and that the world is not black and white; some aspects of a doctrine can be embraced while others disregarded, and doing so is not subject to moral agenda.

When criticizing Fascism, it is the doctrine of Fascism which must be the criticised, as it is the true center of Fascism. If one misses the target by not focusing on the doctrine, or aspects of it, the criticism is in vain. The manifestation of Fascism is only a more remote, weaker reality.

Of course, this applies to other political manifestations as well.

Besides, Fascism and National Socialism are not the same. Only in leftist Newspeak is the latter included in the former.

As an example of how confused the modern definition of Fascism really is, where it becomes an insult and a moral weapon, I have uploaded here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BWMZSPDG) a .doc(ument) called "The Doctrine of Fascism" (ot. La Dottrina del Fascismo) for all those who are interested in understanding Fascism. The English is quite simple. It is available, in book-form, in German translation ("Der Geist des Faschismus").
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: death metal black metal on May 04, 2007, 02:29:11 AM
Quote
when i said "roots" i mean that metal derived from blues that mainly black even if it has celtic influences. and without blues there would not have been metal for sure. ok you are right, i should maybe change it with "the history of metal and the styles it came from was heavily influenced by black music culture".


I have to disagree here. The blues, like rock n roll itself, is an American moneymaking invention that is aesthetic only: it brings nothing new to the music.

The pentatonic was well known in Celtic, Chinese, Indian and German folk music. The 12-bar blues structure was also well known. So was syncopation, although it was rarely applied constantly (German waltz drumming, however, is the origin of jazz). The blues, like rock, is a marketing invention and not a musical one.

I don't want to get into the politics here, but I'd like to inject a note of reality to the music history aspect of it. All of what you've been told has come from an industry that receives massive material reward for claiming exclusivity to certain art forms. Yet these art forms are as unique as the marketing invention of putting yogurt in a disposable, sealed cup -- it's still yogurt.

I recently heard the Ice Ages project and thought it intriguing. With you channeling certain impulses toward Ice Ages, does this mean the music of Summoning will change? Also, do you feel Summoning will reach toward more diversity of mood in the way Burzum did? I like "Oath Bound" quite a bit but find it stays too much within the same mood for daily listening. I thought Dol Guldur was more diverse in this regard, and so more listenable on a daily basis.


Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Alexis on May 05, 2007, 03:22:30 AM
Quote
As an example of how confused the modern definition of Fascism really is, where it becomes an insult and a moral weapon, I have uploaded here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BWMZSPDG) a .doc(ument) called "The Doctrine of Fascism" (ot. La Dottrina del Fascismo) for all those who are interested in understanding Fascism. The English is quite simple. It is available, in book-form, in German translation ("Der Geist des Faschismus").


...or read it online here (http://anus.com/zine/db/benito_mussolini/the_doctrine_of_fascism/). Long Live Mussolini!
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 05, 2007, 11:48:57 AM
Italians aren't white.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Ageless_Stranger on May 05, 2007, 02:36:35 PM
Quote

I have to disagree here. The blues, like rock n roll itself, is an American moneymaking invention that is aesthetic only: it brings nothing new to the music.

The pentatonic was well known in Celtic, Chinese, Indian and German folk music. The 12-bar blues structure was also well known. So was syncopation, although it was rarely applied constantly (German waltz drumming, however, is the origin of jazz). The blues, like rock, is a marketing invention and not a musical one.

I don't want to get into the politics here, but I'd like to inject a note of reality to the music history aspect of it. All of what you've been told has come from an industry that receives massive material reward for claiming exclusivity to certain art forms. Yet these art forms are as unique as the marketing invention of putting yogurt in a disposable, sealed cup -- it's still yogurt.


While I agree that pentatonics date back further than blues, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that metal musicians knew of pentatonics primarily through their exposure to rock and blues, so even if the roots of metal go back much further there is still some descent from the blues.

Speaking of Ice Ages, I have another question for Protector.  Is there any chance of the Ice Ages debut being re-released?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on May 06, 2007, 12:49:45 AM
Quote

While I agree that pentatonics date back further than blues, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that metal musicians knew of pentatonics primarily through their exposure to rock and blues, so even if the roots of metal go back much further there is still some descent from the blues.


Hmm, if a Black friend of mine shows me a scale that exists in my own culture, does it make my scale Black ?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 06, 2007, 05:20:45 AM
I agree with what Protector said about metal music and Nazism. They wouldn't have supported it in the slightest. However as a home grown form of art and not a foreign import, it's more likely they would have simply discouraged it rather than ban it outright, as they were wont to do with art they thought of as degenerate.

However I echo the line people are saying about fascism - its doctrine needs to be seperated from implementation.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: death metal black metal on May 06, 2007, 06:58:39 AM
Quote
While I agree that pentatonics date back further than blues, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that metal musicians knew of pentatonics primarily through their exposure to rock and blues, so even if the roots of metal go back much further there is still some descent from the blues.


Yes, but if the blues inherited them from another form, why stop at the blues as an ancestor? There's only one reason why people consider blues and rock to be unique: marketing. Research the history and you will see this is true.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 07, 2007, 04:40:31 PM
Quote
Besides, Fascism and National Socialism are not the same. Only in leftist Newspeak is the latter included in the former.


I was thinking about this today. Hitler and Mussolini are so taboo there is no way to even talk about them, or write about them, so if people read books written after 1945 (if people still read books) or talk to anyone living, they get a really bigoted, skewed view.

The funny thing is that the "Nazis" of today are the worst about it. Most are like Republicans as interpreted by radical communists, with racial hatred on top of it. They have no unifying ideology. I think that's what Protector was talking about, and why he doesn't like Today's Nazis.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on May 07, 2007, 07:24:40 PM
Quote

I was thinking about this today. Hitler and Mussolini are so taboo there is no way to even talk about them, or write about them, so if people read books written after 1945 (if people still read books) or talk to anyone living, they get a really bigoted, skewed view.

The funny thing is that the "Nazis" of today are the worst about it. Most are like Republicans as interpreted by radical communists, with racial hatred on top of it. They have no unifying ideology. I think that's what Protector was talking about, and why he doesn't like Today's Nazis.


I don't think yesterday's nazis had a lot going for them, either.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 08, 2007, 05:02:32 PM
They were a lot smarter than government now. Even the Soviets were smarter than government now, just incompetent. Europe and the USA are living off the wealth of the past and have no clue. Asia's even worse off.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 04:10:17 AM
Quote

Lol, that's actually a racist thing to say. Which is btw what I think about racism: everybody is racist to a certain degree. You talk about racism as if it's something exclusively for white people. As if racism is somewhere between adolf hitler and a bunch of drunk rednecks with bad haircuts. But let's try to look at racism as a world-wide phenomenon. Then we can see for instance that the famous socialist leader Pol Pot persecuted the Vietnamese. We can see Hutus and Tutsis killing each other in Rwanda. There is the Turkish 'grey wolves' movement, there is deep-rooted racism in Japan, there are Afro-Americans committing hatecrimes against white Americans... even in my own neighborhood there are north-Africans causing plenty of trouble mostly to white people because colored people can be racist too.


Replace "regime" with "culture" Every culture is intolerant towards others because they know diluting their culture with others will mean the end of their culture. Only "multi-culture" seeks to assimilate other cultures and why? To turn it into a product and sell it, to exploit other nationalities. If you are against imperialism you should be against immigration, because what they are doing right now is simply a modern form of slavery. If our governments would want to do other countries a favor they would try to fix the problems of that country, but instead they let large corporations try to steal the most capable workers only to exploit them.


Do you think Varg would still be in prison if he hadn't expressed his ideas so explicitly? It's funny that you bring up Varg Vikernes as an example of why you feel you should speak out against fascist tendencies. No offense but you almost make it sound as if the entire black metal movement is about to build statues for Varg. Many people that I speak to who are into black metal distance themselves from what Varg says. Even Varg himself has had to rectify some of his previous writings, and this was actually what I was referring to when I said that raising politics to this level only raises more issues. To put it simply: Varg went through an incredible amount of shit simply because he expressed his unpopular ideas to a large crowd. Holding him up as an example of why people should speak out against racism doesn't really work for me.


The Africans that were made slaves were mostly captured by other Africans. The thing is: there was already slavery in Africa before imperialism. Take the pyramids for instance: everybody agrees that they are historical wonders, no one is saying "think of all the poor slaves that died to build these things for their decadent pharaohs." Do you think the white traders would go deep into Africa to capture slaves? That would have been too dangerous for them. Instead they simply traded with the local African tribes who lived in the coastal areas and bought the slaves that those tribes had already taken. So you see slave trade isn't an exclusively white business and most of the slaves were already slaves. Also many of the guards and watchmen on the cotton-plantations were black. And the slaves in Suriname were actually released after some years of duty, and now they make up most of the population there (a funny detail to this is that the Suriname people who protest against slavery would not have been born if slavery had not existed, the same can be said for the Afro-Americans, a Suriname girl told me about this detail btw)

I accept slavery as something that was common in those days, and as something that is not exclusively done by white people. I know you (Protector) were not saying that but the stereotype was beginning to surface so I felt I had to point this out.

And most of the third world countries have been destroyed by civil war and aids, not because "the white people left them that way" suggesting that is ridiculous. They were given their independence and messed up due to their own corruption. Oh, and of course if the US intervenes it's bad (Iraq) but if the US doesn't intervene it's bad too (Rwanda) so how exactly are white people to blame for what still happens in those countries? This whole putting the blame on white people is not realistic, it's racist. Acknowledging that some people are limited and are for instance not ready yet to lead their own country is not racist, it's realistic.




no that is not racisitic.
again i notice that people simply dont understand the real meaning of  racism.
racism mean that your "race" rules everythign else. for a racist any j-e-w for example can never be a nice honest person, al the attitudes he connects with the  j-e-w race are projected to any person belonging to this

it does not mean taht a person that grew up in another nation has different habbits and different experiences. thats essential!!!!
a person from a different "race" who grew up in austria with austrian traditions is surley much more like an austrian than an austrian who grew up in another country with all its traditions

about immigration.
sure i would prefer if the ruling contries would not act like some super emperors and if all those super rtich concerns would not exployt other countries and if no person in the world would be in such a fucked up situation that he has to move to another country. but i dont udnerstand why all this hate goes to all those people who had to leave their country because of hunger and poverty, wheras all those mega huge concerns are no real problem for them.

why should varg not be in prision. he is a murderer, and the reason for his murder is a total shitty one, because of some money he wanted back.  whats for you a fair penality for a murder?. why do people always forget that he is a murderer. in real fascism he would already be executed as any other murderer btw!!

about the third wold contries.
i think it is strange that this nazi movement in black metal started as a kind of continuation of this pagen movement. first they got all so sad what those evil christians did with their country and how they spoiled their folk, and finally they came to nazi ideologies. but what all those christians did with the nordic culture is NOTHING compared what the europeans did with the africans.

but you are right. slavery is no intention of the white. but this does not make slavery better.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 04:13:55 AM
Quote
Now to completely wipe the board on the whole "foreign influences in music" argument based on the descent of certain instruments:

The potato is originally from Peru. Yet the potato is served in a variety of cultural dishes. 'Sauerkraut und kartoffeln" is not considered as something typically Peruvian. So why would metal be "n-i-g-g-e-r" music even if it features Spanish guitars and Arab percussion? The sand from the Sahara desert makes its way on the wind into my country, should I try to separate the African sand from my native Dutch sand because otherwise our beaches wouldn't be Dutch anymore? The answer seems obvious to me. And it also seems obvious to me that the argument that "if an instrument isn't really white you are not really playing white music" is ludicrous. May all people who once took this point of view discard it for what it is: an argument that appeals to extremism but not to rationalism.


well then you just say that varg vikingers is ludicrous because he was the one who stopped playign guitars because of their historic roots.

and you are right, a lot of things are originally not from the own nation. and thats exactly why any kind of nazis will always be in contradiction!!! they just accept the things they don't feel as foreign, but accept easily any other foreign things if they are already long enough in their culture. for example the nazis stopped using the fracture letters which they used all the time till 1941, because they found out that a j-e-w were involved in its creation centuries ago and therefore those letters where not considered as aryan anymore! and they even removed the german word for nose (=> nase) because they thought it has no german roots and replaced it by the ugly word "gesichtserker" (something like "face jutty"). actually this word is german and the nazis made a mistake.
so i dont care if it is ludicrous to call things not white because they had non white influences, but if it is, then the nazis are the most ludicrous people i can imagine.

and btw i did not say that metal is n-i-g-g-e-r music (you seem to confuse me with varg vikingers;-)
i just said it has no white roots and soon will replace this line with "metal music has historically heavy black influences", or some line like that.

and thats again what i always say. foreign influences DONT make your own culture weaker, they make them stronger.

i guess  you did not want to prove me write, but anyway you did;-)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 04:25:58 AM
Quote

I have to disagree here. The blues, like rock n roll itself, is an American moneymaking invention that is aesthetic only: it brings nothing new to the music.

The pentatonic was well known in Celtic, Chinese, Indian and German folk music. The 12-bar blues structure was also well known. So was syncopation, although it was rarely applied constantly (German waltz drumming, however, is the origin of jazz). The blues, like rock, is a marketing invention and not a musical one.

I don't want to get into the politics here, but I'd like to inject a note of reality to the music history aspect of it. All of what you've been told has come from an industry that receives massive material reward for claiming exclusivity to certain art forms. Yet these art forms are as unique as the marketing invention of putting yogurt in a disposable, sealed cup -- it's still yogurt.

I recently heard the Ice Ages project and thought it intriguing. With you channeling certain impulses toward Ice Ages, does this mean the music of Summoning will change? Also, do you feel Summoning will reach toward more diversity of mood in the way Burzum did? I like "Oath Bound" quite a bit but find it stays too much within the same mood for daily listening. I thought Dol Guldur was more diverse in this regard, and so more listenable on a daily basis.





i am no blues fan actually, but i think it braught as much innovation to music as any other music sytle. if you say it brought nothing new, which music you think brought anything new?

and if you dont accept rock or blues as a real innovation, what you consider as the roots of metal music btw?

about "ice ages".
actually i think this topic goes to far away from this thread, but you and any other person interessted in anything connected to my music can join the summoning forum of course to discuss more musical related topics there. i often post there was well.

but anyway the meaning of my different projects was always to seperate the different aspects of my music and not to mix everthing together. this might surprise some people here but i am really sick about all this crossover music style, i dont want to mix to many things together. this was ok 25 years ago when faith no more or any other bands did that to bring some inovations, but meanwhile it is boring and i prefer to keep my different musical instressts seperate from each other.

to say it short, ice ages is as old as summoning and never will influence summoning.

any your criticism about outh bound. i did not hear this for the first time, but we have no problems with it. these days things are changing all the time, so why should there not be a band that keeps its style. and about "dol guldur" i know for some this album is the greatest, for others it is "stronghold". but for me it is alway the newest one because it is most close to my actual taste.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 04:32:12 AM
Quote

I was thinking about this today. Hitler and Mussolini are so taboo there is no way to even talk about them, or write about them, so if people read books written after 1945 (if people still read books) or talk to anyone living, they get a really bigoted, skewed view.

The funny thing is that the "Nazis" of today are the worst about it. Most are like Republicans as interpreted by radical communists, with racial hatred on top of it. They have no unifying ideology. I think that's what Protector was talking about, and why he doesn't like Today's Nazis.



i neither like the modern nor the old nazis.
but you are right. it is shit-ty that this is all such a taboo, and as i wrote in my statements this taboo is making it so interessting for many.

so what i am trying to do it to break this taboo and talk about it. no person can shock me anyway with any nazi or facism slogans, they should be discussed more opened. for me thats the best weapon against such tendencies.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 12, 2007, 07:00:55 AM
Quote
a person from a different "race" who grew up in austria with austrian traditions is surley much more like an austrian than an austrian who grew up in another country with all its traditions


Actually, that's not true. Did you ever see the experiments done on twins? Twins raised across the country, in completely different circumstances, would behave more like their twin back home than the people with whom they were raised. So it is with Austrians, also.


Quote
i think it is strange that this nazi movement in black metal started as a kind of continuation of this pagen movement. first they got all so sad what those evil christians did with their country and how they spoiled their folk, and finally they came to nazi ideologies. but what all those christians did with the nordic culture is NOTHING compared what the europeans did with the africans.


Actually, here you're wrong as well. Slavery at most affected 1% of the African population, probably less. Christianity has affected every European. If Christianity had destroyed Portugal, for example, it would be comparable to slavery.

What most people don't know is that the Nazis themselves came about from the fusion of a Pagan Volkisch movement, existing Conservative doctrine, plebeian Socialism and some influence from the aristocratic Bismarkian types. National Socialism was not new to the Nazis; national socialism is a combination of word-ideas like "strawberry ice cream."

As a black man, I am most interested in using the ideas of National Socialism to further my own race and to separate from you hideous white african-americans who smell like milk and can't dance. For more information, visit:

http://www.blackpanther.org/
http://www.theblacknationalist.com/
http://www.pan-nationalism.org/
http://www.nationalistplanet.com/

Idi Amin and Marcus Garvey were our heroes, not the Christian Martin "Lootha" King, Jr.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 12, 2007, 07:27:46 AM
omg I thought your name was just ironic, but you're actually one of them COLOUREDS?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 12, 2007, 08:15:59 AM
Quote
i neither like the modern nor the old nazis.


Then the question becomes, but do you like our current society better?

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: death metal black metal on May 12, 2007, 09:43:59 AM
I had originally hoped this forum would be about metal without politics, but I think it's germaine here. For reference of all users and musicians, here are some statements from ANUS.com on this topic:

Creating the African Superman (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/prozak/african_superman)
Putting Race in Context (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/prozak/race)
White Power (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/prozak/white_power)
Patriotism or Nationalism? (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/patriotism)
Anti-Evolution (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/evolution)
Low Biological Quality of Humankind (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/quality)
Race is Important, Racism is Not (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/race)
Nobody Wants Your Apocalyptic Hate Cult (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/hate)
Why I am Not a "White" Nationalist or neo-Nazi (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/nazi)
The Danger of Racism and Anti-Semitism (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/racism)
On the Inseparability of Ideology and Art (http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/ideology/)
Is Black Metal Friendly to National Socialism? (http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/nazi_metal)
N-S-B-M and Black Metal (http://tinyurl.com/2yxqeh)

Additionally, you may find Anti-Racist Nationalism (http://www.anus.com/tribes/arn) to be informative.

It's not fair to let this thread go on without mention our reviews of Summoning CDs (http://www.anus.com/metal/summoning).
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 08:59:41 PM
Quote

Actually, that's not true. Did you ever see the experiments done on twins? Twins raised across the country, in completely different circumstances, would behave more like their twin back home than the people with whom they were raised. So it is with Austrians, also.



Actually, here you're wrong as well. Slavery at most affected 1% of the African population, probably less. Christianity has affected every European. If Christianity had destroyed Portugal, for example, it would be comparable to slavery.

What most people don't know is that the Nazis themselves came about from the fusion of a Pagan Volkisch movement, existing Conservative doctrine, plebeian Socialism and some influence from the aristocratic Bismarkian types. National Socialism was not new to the Nazis; national socialism is a combination of word-ideas like "strawberry ice cream."

As a black man, I am most interested in using the ideas of National Socialism to further my own race and to separate from you hideous white african-americans who smell like milk and can't dance. For more information, visit:

http://www.blackpanther.org/
http://www.theblacknationalist.com/
http://www.pan-nationalism.org/
http://www.nationalistplanet.com/

Idi Amin and Marcus Garvey were our heroes, not the Christian Martin "Lootha" King, Jr.



i studied psychology for a time and i learned about those twin experiments. those experiments dont really mean much because the samples can never be large enough for a valid result. there are simply not enough twins existing that got separated from each other, not even knowing them to make any valid scientific conclusions.

but on the other hand i know so many people from so different counties who love for example summoning, althought this music is totaly not connected to theri cultures, but they like it because due to internet etc they grew up with this culture and therefore are more close to it. no DNS in the world can prevent anybody from liking any culture.

actually i was talking rather about imperialism not so much about slavery.

and it is true, nazi is a weired mixture of plenty of things that dont really suit together. even the bible is involved.
i would like to mention here where hitler got his race theories. when he was young he got heavily influenced by those magazines called "ostara" written by "lanz von liebenfels". this guy created the so called "theo zoology". he said some thing like "god created adam and eva who where white, and later the non white as slaves for them". so you can see on what ridiculous shit this racism was based;-)


and btw a black nazi is not a bit better for me than a white one. actually i am not sure if you really are black or just a white nazi that wants to make the blacks look stupid, but that does not change my opinion about black nazis.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 09:02:30 PM
Quote

Then the question becomes, but do you like our current society better?



i already explained that i dont like extreme capitalism, and huge concerns are everywhere, but anyway to answer your question.
Yes, but this does not mean that i consider it as perfect, money is ruling too much.

At least in our modern society no people are put to concentration camps because of their race, no matter how they behaved. At least people here in the forum for example can express their different opinions without getting to prison (unfortunately not possible in Austria concerning nazi statements, but at least in USA) or even get executed for it.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 12, 2007, 09:03:15 PM
Quote
I had originally hoped this forum would be about metal without politics, but I think it's germaine here. For reference of all users and musicians, here are some statements from ANUS.com on this topic:

Creating the African Superman (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/prozak/african_superman)
Putting Race in Context (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/prozak/race)
White Power (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/prozak/white_power)
Patriotism or Nationalism? (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/patriotism)
Anti-Evolution (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/evolution)
Low Biological Quality of Humankind (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/quality)
Race is Important, Racism is Not (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/race)
Nobody Wants Your Apocalyptic Hate Cult (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/hate)
Why I am Not a "White" Nationalist or neo-Nazi (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/nazi)
The Danger of Racism and Anti-Semitism (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/racism)
On the Inseparability of Ideology and Art (http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/ideology/)
Is Black Metal Friendly to National Socialism? (http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/nazi_metal)
N-S-B-M and Black Metal (http://tinyurl.com/2yxqeh)

Additionally, you may find Anti-Racist Nationalism (http://www.anus.com/tribes/arn) to be informative.

It's not fair to let this thread go on without mention our reviews of Summoning CDs (http://www.anus.com/metal/summoning).


well i did not start this thread;-)
but once it is started i have to participate.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 13, 2007, 06:13:12 PM
Quote
i already explained that i dont like extreme capitalism, and huge concerns are everywhere, but anyway to answer your question.
Yes, but this does not mean that i consider it as perfect, money is ruling too much.

At least in our modern society no people are put to concentration camps because of their race, no matter how they behaved. At least people here in the forum for example can express their different opinions without getting to prison (unfortunately not possible in Austria concerning nazi statements, but at least in USA) or even get executed for it.


You didn't answer my question: which is better, NS society or our current one?

Also, people weren't put into concentration camps for their race. They were put into concentration camps for not being German. The Germans never waged war against another land for racial reasons, but they did want to be Germans. It's the same way when the Panthers say we want a black country, and you can't come because you're pink. We need to be us and if you're here it'll screw that up.

Quote
i studied psychology for a time and i learned about those twin experiments. those experiments dont really mean much because the samples can never be large enough for a valid result. there are simply not enough twins existing that got separated from each other, not even knowing them to make any valid scientific conclusions.

but on the other hand i know so many people from so different counties who love for example summoning, althought this music is totaly not connected to theri cultures, but they like it because due to internet etc they grew up with this culture and therefore are more close to it. no DNS in the world can prevent anybody from liking any culture.


So you think liking a rock band is more indicative than the studies of twins? I don't think you understand the point here. Each nation needs to be formed of its own people, one people. That has nothing to do with rock music.

I disagree on the twin studies because the measurements were so consistent. Even with a group of 70 twins (the study I saw) that's powerful evidence. And there's more than one. But even more than some stupid "study," look to your experience. Each group is different and when you mix them together, no one has any culture. They become McDonalds-Coca-Cola Americans. Is that what you want instead of a Nazi society?

Quote
nazi is a weired mixture of plenty of things that dont really suit together. even the bible is involved.
i would like to mention here where hitler got his race theories. when he was young he got heavily influenced by those magazines called "ostara" written by "lanz von liebenfels". this guy created the so called "theo zoology". he said some thing like "god created adam and eva who where white, and later the non white as slaves for them". so you can see on what ridiculous shit this racism was based.


That's not what his biographer, Toland, said. Hitler picked up his racism from a number of sources, including Oswald Spengler, the German military and the German Volkisch movement, including Thule-Gesellschaft, which had been saying that for many years. Other thinkers at the time, including Carl Jung and Lothrop Stoddard and Madison Grant, advanced those theories, which united racial purity and eugenics. Many in Scandinavia and central Europe were saying the same thing.

And the Bible? Here's what Hitler had to say.

Quote
The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/25points.html

So you see, you don't understand Nazism, and I'm sure you don't understand the Black Panthers or Black Nationalism. Why would you condemn something you don't understand? Isn't that closed-minded and bigoted?

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 13, 2007, 06:14:15 PM
Quote
omg I thought your name was just ironic, but you're actually one of them COLOUREDS?


Coloured, outside the USA, means a mulatto or black person who is half-white. I am an African-American and Black Nationalist.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Iconoclast on May 13, 2007, 08:55:46 PM
I can vouch as an identical twin that the similiarities are eerie, and the differences are just as eerie :)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 14, 2007, 12:22:22 AM
Quote

You didn't answer my question: which is better, NS society or our current one?

Also, people weren't put into concentration camps for their race. They were put into concentration camps for not being German. The Germans never waged war against another land for racial reasons, but they did want to be Germans. It's the same way when the Panthers say we want a black country, and you can't come because you're pink. We need to be us and if you're here it'll screw that up.


So you think liking a rock band is more indicative than the studies of twins? I don't think you understand the point here. Each nation needs to be formed of its own people, one people. That has nothing to do with rock music.

I disagree on the twin studies because the measurements were so consistent. Even with a group of 70 twins (the study I saw) that's powerful evidence. And there's more than one. But even more than some stupid "study," look to your experience. Each group is different and when you mix them together, no one has any culture. They become McDonalds-Coca-Cola Americans. Is that what you want instead of a Nazi society?


That's not what his biographer, Toland, said. Hitler picked up his racism from a number of sources, including Oswald Spengler, the German military and the German Volkisch movement, including Thule-Gesellschaft, which had been saying that for many years. Other thinkers at the time, including Carl Jung and Lothrop Stoddard and Madison Grant, advanced those theories, which united racial purity and eugenics. Many in Scandinavia and central Europe were saying the same thing.

And the Bible? Here's what Hitler had to say.


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/25points.html

So you see, you don't understand Nazism, and I'm sure you don't understand the Black Panthers or Black Nationalism. Why would you condemn something you don't understand? Isn't that closed-minded and bigoted?



i answered your question. i wrote:
Yes, but this does not mean that i consider it as perfect, money is ruling too much. the yes at the beginnning is the answer to your question.

well i was talking about the je-ws, who lived in germany since centuries. most of them already converted to christianity, had a normal job and behaved total fine, but anyway the nazis took them away from their home and put then into concentration camps. and also in those concentration camps you could also fine a lot of german people from forbidden parties etc.
you consider that as ok?

i just said that your personality is shaped by of your experiences, your influences and not because of your race. if it would be possible to take a black baby and make it look white and put it to a white family that think it is white and raises it up as if it would be white, no person in the world would notice that it  is actually a black one.

about the black panter movement.
why they chose islam as their religion. don't you know that the moslems sold the black people as slaves to USA. why collaboration with your historical enemies??

i don't understand your conclusion why you write that i don't understand nazis ideologies. is this hitler quote in any contradiction to what i said before? there is noting that showes that i don't understand nazis .
but i know what they did to the je-ws, i know what they did with any kind of progressive form of art (which they considered as "entartete kunst" and burned it as they would burn metal music CDs).
i know how they treated people with other opinions. i know much more about them, but those facts are already enough for me to hate this ideology as it is in contradiction to metal music or any other kind of underground music not willing to adapt to the masses.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on May 14, 2007, 04:24:17 AM
Protector, could you share your opinions about various forms of satanism (using Satan as a metaphor of individualism, LaVeyan, "misantrophic anti-life chaotic suicidal", or using as a opposite in a manner i described before).
Don't get me wrong i know that you don't consider yourself as a satanist and don't use that kind of imagery but i'm really interested about your view on it. Also you deal with many bands (many of them being probably psychos, uncreative morons that simply can't find other topic than satan and anti-christianity to write lyrics or people angry on christianity because it stand against their simple hedonism) and probably had some good conversations with them where they were more honest than usually.
Maybe your answers will change course of this thread from "my knowlege about history is more esoteric than yours".
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 14, 2007, 05:53:21 AM
"i just said that your personality is shaped by of your experiences, your influences and not because of your race. "

It is shaped by both, or at least it should be.

I don't see why this argument has gone on for so long, everyone knows protectors viewpoint. Hitler was bad, many of the issues he tackled weren't bad, they way he tackled them was bad.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: neoclassical on May 14, 2007, 06:58:18 AM
Quote
I don't see why this argument has gone on for so long, everyone knows protectors viewpoint. Hitler was bad, many of the issues he tackled weren't bad, they way he tackled them was bad.

Why this argument has gone on for so long? Because Hitler wasn't "bad" and the way he tackled the issues wasn't "bad" either, and it is very arrogant to use Hitler, National Socialism or Fascism as a reason for one's inferiority complex.

Why are you so strikingly ignorant?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 14, 2007, 07:21:03 AM
i think this thread is already running in circles. i think most of the things now discussed are already answered by me.
but once again.
racism is shit because the race does not describe anything about a person. when summoning started to worked together with Pazuzu, who is half chinese and half english, there was not the slightest difference in personality between him and the others, because he grew up as we grew up and therefore was the same kind of person as we where. i know people from turkey who grew up in a city like i did and therefore are much more like me than any super conservative austrian farmer in the deep countryside listening only to cheesy brass orchestra music. i made several of experiences that way.

btw does the music of pazuzu sound chinese, or does the music of "dark throne" sound argentinan, because fenriz is half argentian btw. all this talk about race theories is just bull-shit and people can not decide between culture experiences and some race.

and i would finally like to know what good things hitler did or even what good thing he planned, because i can not find any!

he fucked up the german nation. he leaded a war were all were suffering and almost starving except him and his friend who had parties all the time. after 1943 it was clear for everyone that the war is lost and each day the war lasted longer just meant the death of many german soldiers and the destruction of many german houses, but those basta-rds did not care, why should they? they had a nice life and know that once the war will end they will not have this live anymore. they where simply disgusting parasites nothing more, who started a war to fulfill their self-actualization but did not take the consequences.

and he also did not bring back and old germanic traditions. in contrary he cooperated with the historic greatest enemies of the old germanic tribes, the ancient romans.

i could repeat everything i wrote so far, but better read the older post and better react on them than just saying how fine hitler was, this leads to nothing.

and btw talking about "inferiority complex", why should a person that is proud about the things he does, or knows more suffering under "inferiority complex" than a person who has nothing to be proud on than the coincidence that he was born in his nation;-)
i think any person who prefers to believe what a fascistic leader tells him to believe than to choose his own opinion from several opinions is rather the weaker one. sure it is more exhausting to hear different opinions that are often in contradiction to each other than to just hear one and immediately transform it to your own, but is this really strong?
The only reason why hitler and his NSDAP had such great success was this "inferiority complex" of the german nation, who felt humiliated after the first world war

about satanism. i am pure atheist and dont care about any so called form of higher existence. but this is not connected to this topic. write me an email or better joint the summoning forum for that question.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 14, 2007, 10:38:26 AM
Quote
Why this argument has gone on for so long? Because Hitler wasn't "bad" and the way he tackled the issues wasn't "bad" either, and it is very arrogant to use Hitler, National Socialism or Fascism as a reason for one's inferiority complex.

Why are you so strikingly ignorant?


You're a retard, and whether or not Hitler was bad (he was) doesn't even matter.

You can either sit in your computer room and read Mein Kampf, hate Jews and alienate yourself from both proles and the intelligentsia completely, or you can tackle this world pragmatically, throw away all baggage and actually change something.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 14, 2007, 12:22:24 PM
Quote
racism is shit because the race does not describe anything about a person.


What about nationalism? When you want to be German, you want only Germans in that country, or you become grey people like we see in America, and all culture vanishes.

It is the same way with the black man. We cannot follow the white religion of Christianity, and we do not want to allow whites into our community as breeding with them will destroy our culture.

So we are allies with Nazis and Islamists because they know this truth, but few see it. Did you know that most large corporations and churches are anti-nationalist, just like you? Doesn't that make you reconsider?

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on May 15, 2007, 03:09:11 AM
Hitler gone bad because he invade all world to prove his beliefs about supremacy of aryan race and to stretch teritorry of germany instead of building up his nation and strenghten it within its borders.

Nationalism isn't about building another aushwitz or destroying your neighbours. There was a lot of nationalism before fascism or nazism. It was takin' care about business of your country/ethnic group/tribe.Nationalism is making a good decisions
unaffected with false kindness to people or groups that happens to be unworthy.

It is typicall that usually well established countries don't bother about being nationalistic because they feel so settled. Then they gonna accept immigrants with open hands and give them everyhing they want even at cost of "native" interest. In meantime immigrants become parasites taking profits and sometimes living in isolated "ghettos" cos they don't want to assimilate(nationalists?) with "natives"(see Belgium for example). Or politicians can't took even deeper breath without some reaction from all fucked up minorities which start to act as or even became a majority(see France). But they give them erlier permision cos they were so fucking populistic/democratic/tolerant/capitalistic etc.
And now Belgium took off funds given in various forms to immigrants because society become pissed about their crimes and worried economy.
Same in Germany. Does Germans loves Turkeys?
or maybe they more of angry on themselves that they allowed current situation to come?

Internal enemies can easily destroy country which are unaware or bagatellizing them. Or making some sort of appeasment.
Nationalism is a strenght and minorities know this truth very well.

Btw my questions about satanism can be potentially
consequential in creating new arguments on this thread...but nevermind.

Protector: doesn't in Austria, some time ago some kind of elections was won by some neo-nazi guy and his party(i may confuse something here)?
This would tell a lot about people that live there and their beliefs (nostalgia?)...
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 15, 2007, 04:41:59 AM
Quote
So we are allies with Nazis


If you want Protector to see your point of view, STOP TALKING ABOUT THE BLOODY NAZIS. You don't need to Sieg Heil to know the truth.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: ASSHOLE BASTARD on May 15, 2007, 05:18:43 AM
Quote
It is the same way with the black man. We cannot follow the white religion of Christianity, and we do not want to allow whites into our community as breeding with them will destroy our culture.

Christianity isn't "white"; it's an invasive variant of Judaism, just like Islam. ;)
Unlike Judaism, Christianity and Islam encourage their followers to spread (force) their beliefs to other cultures and races. Both Christianity and Islam are responsible for the subjugation and destruction of cultures worldwide. They need be either wiped out or confined to the Middle East.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Immolation on May 15, 2007, 05:54:09 AM
Islamists are responsible for most of the overpopulation in the developing world. Ever been in touch with a real third world/ Middle Eastern Muslim? I'd hardly call them my allies given their attitude to life, although I have nothing against them personally and have many Muslim friends.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Olethros on May 15, 2007, 08:49:11 AM
Quote
Protector: doesn't in Austria, some time ago some kind of elections was won by some neo-nazi guy and his party(i may confuse something here)?
This would tell a lot about people that live there and their beliefs (nostalgia?)...


That would have been Jörg Haider, leader of the far -right Austrian Freedom Party.I don't remember him being openly neonazi, but Protector should probably know better I guess.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Stranger on May 15, 2007, 05:12:55 PM
This thread has circled itself at least three times now. Points were made, opinions were given. Give it a rest.

I want to thank Protector for giving us some insight into his band and personal philosophy. I know I enjoyed it. Keep up the great work.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on May 16, 2007, 07:17:35 PM
Quote
This thread has circled itself at least three times now.  


I don't agree. Things were said that were historically inaccurate, and people continue to fence-sit. How boring.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on May 19, 2007, 06:45:06 AM
Quote
well i was talking about the je-ws, who lived in germany since centuries. most of them already converted to christianity, had a normal job and behaved total fine, but anyway the nazis took them away from their home and put then into concentration camps.


Modern thinking in a short summary. They got jobs, and behaved fine, so OF COURSE they belong anywhere they want to go. They contribute to capitalism and liberalism, that means they're GOOD!

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: neoclassical on May 21, 2007, 07:54:15 AM
author=blitzkrieg
> Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy.
> Global warming: Didn't do anything to stop it and wasn't planning to; in line with every other country nowadays and back then also. His scope for increasing industrial output meant an INCREASE in pollutant output.

Quote
"The German countryside must be preserved under all circumstances, for it is and has forever been the source of strength and greatness of our people." -- Adolf Hitler

"Man should organize his existence meaningfully in the natural sphere of his living space, should make everything that nature offers him useful for himself while being conscious of his responsibility, should be the master of nature but at the same time its protector and conserver." --Julius Wagner, German educator

"We do not build speedways, but roads which correspond to the character of the German landscape." -- Fritz Todt, German engineer
(more quotes here) (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Radical%20Ecology.htm)

> Overpopulation: German mothers who gave birth to many children were revered by the state propaganda. They were given medals and money. Bodies were badly needed for the war grinder.

Healthy offspring was rewarded, and at the same time room was sought so there would be no overpopulation (more land for more people).
At the same time you say bodies were needed for the "war grinder", debunking your own argument.

> Boring mass media: This is a non-point, seeing as what I find interesting you may not, and "mass-media" can mean any form of medium that covers an area, nation or continent. But even so, Hitlers propaganda made wide use of Germanys media output and controlled everything that went out on the airwaves.

Preferences aside - propaganda is everywhere, even today, but few notice it. It may be said that extensive propaganda is a modern phenomenon, but certainly not particular to the Third Reich.

> A perverse society: I can't think of anything more perverted than sending political enemies to ghettoes and concentration camps, and overtly indoctrinating the youth to unthinkingly tow the party line and breed them for war using school and social groups.

If your kitchen is infested with cockroaches, are you going to sit down and watch them nibble on your toes, or are you going to smoke them out? Try to understand how people felt at that time. The NSDAP had realized German culture had it's back up against the wall. Its death had to be prevented at all costs, and while they made some mistakes, most of the sometimes harsh measures were justified.

> Higher values like loyalty and adventure: Loyal to who? They weren't loyal to their culture or people, or even to themselves, they were loyal to Hitler and his corrupt political party. Pathetic loyalty like this is completely opposed to Nietzches idea of the uebermensch. And as for adventure, I guess it's a lovely adventure to be sent into a thousand miles of barren Russian steppe whilst getting shot at!

They were loyal to their culture and people because they strived to prevent both from degenerating into their American or Russian counterparts. Germany at that time had its own culture, which you know nothing about. For me, your remarks are full of hate.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 08:29:34 AM
Quote

What about nationalism? When you want to be German, you want only Germans in that country, or you become grey people like we see in America, and all culture vanishes.

It is the same way with the black man. We cannot follow the white religion of Christianity, and we do not want to allow whites into our community as breeding with them will destroy our culture.

So we are allies with Nazis and Islamists because they know this truth, but few see it. Did you know that most large corporations and churches are anti-nationalist, just like you? Doesn't that make you reconsider?




no nationalism does not automatically mean that you only accept people that where born in your nation as valid members of your nation. it can also mean to be independent from other contries. just take "gandhi" for example, he was surely a nationalist who wanted to free india from the British imperialism, but i dont think he hated non indians. or take a look at Atatürk, who after the ottoman empire separated turkey from the rest. you can love or hate him, but he was a nationalist that did not mind to welcome all the je-ws that where not welcome in the third Reich and had to immigrate to turkey for example, because they where willing to work for his nation. and he made this good quotation that i often use "we are nationalist but our nationalism is neither arrogant nor egoistic".

And thats the point. Nazis are arrogant and egoistic! thats the greatest difference to all the other kinds of nationalism. They think they are better than any other nation. No matter if they say the contrary, it is alway the same.
Just take a look at those "modern" nazi lines you showed me.

"3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population."

This make clear what ass-wholes they are. All of you guys here who think how super anty-globalisation orientated they are shall think about this shit. Do you think that the nazis would accept it that other nations make colonies in their nation???
Of course not. because they are arrogant assholes, nothing more. And if you are really black (what i dont believe) then better not mention those idiots to much; you are a shame for all black people on earth if you do that.

and you did not react on my information why the black panter movement loves islam so much, as the islamic people where the ones that sold the black slaves to amercia.

about church.
I just know that the nazis had a cool relationship to the church and that the church even baptized the weapons of the german army. I also know that they felt as a part of the catholic empire. no wonder because actually the catholic church is a kind of fascistic organization, where all are following the leader (the pope).

And btw. i did not vote for the EU as this is for me a pure capitalistic organisation.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 08:57:16 AM
Quote
Hitler gone bad because he invade all world to prove his beliefs about supremacy of aryan race and to stretch teritorry of germany instead of building up his nation and strenghten it within its borders.

Nationalism isn't about building another aushwitz or destroying your neighbours. There was a lot of nationalism before fascism or nazism. It was takin' care about business of your country/ethnic group/tribe.Nationalism is making a good decisions
unaffected with false kindness to people or groups that happens to be unworthy.

It is typicall that usually well established countries don't bother about being nationalistic because they feel so settled. Then they gonna accept immigrants with open hands and give them everyhing they want even at cost of "native" interest. In meantime immigrants become parasites taking profits and sometimes living in isolated "ghettos" cos they don't want to assimilate(nationalists?) with "natives"(see Belgium for example). Or politicians can't took even deeper breath without some reaction from all fucked up minorities which start to act as or even became a majority(see France). But they give them erlier permision cos they were so fucking populistic/democratic/tolerant/capitalistic etc.
And now Belgium took off funds given in various forms to immigrants because society become pissed about their crimes and worried economy.
Same in Germany. Does Germans loves Turkeys?
or maybe they more of angry on themselves that they allowed current situation to come?

Internal enemies can easily destroy country which are unaware or bagatellizing them. Or making some sort of appeasment.
Nationalism is a strenght and minorities know this truth very well.

Btw my questions about satanism can be potentially
consequential in creating new arguments on this thread...but nevermind.

Protector: doesn't in Austria, some time ago some kind of elections was won by some neo-nazi guy and his party(i may confuse something here)?
This would tell a lot about people that live there and their beliefs (nostalgia?)...


About immigrants:
1. it is not true that they cause so much costs. in contrary:
just imagine a native person of your country. imageine all the money the government pays the mother as "child help" (excuse my lousy english once again).  and then think how much money the goverment spends for school or university for a native child untill he is 18. and then think about an immigrant that comes to the country as a "finished" person, ready to work.

2. the matter if immigrants want to assimilate or not is not only the matter of their personality. it is also the matter of the native people. if they get "wellcomed" with hatred they surely will not feel part of this nation.

Actually maybe i have just good luck but i personally had very fine experiments with turks for example living in austria. i know people who were beaten up by austrians but never by a foraigner. one turk invited me to his own printing factory, we had a nice talk and he was much warmer than most Austrians i know. but once again it might be good luck and also a matter how the government treats foreigners.

But once again i want to focus on the meaning of racism. Even if you dont like foreigners because you think that they don't suit here because they grew up in a different culture and are unable to become part of this country does not mean that you are a racist automatically. only if you think that any person from any race might be unable to feel or think like you because of is DNS, and if all those stereotypes connected to this race overrule any kind of experience you ever made with any person of that race; then you are a racist. I have to repeat.
ray from pazuzu was half chinese, but as he grew up like i did with the same music and same culture he is totaly liek any austrian i know, my coworker is jew actually and i have much fun and feel like he is more close to me than most austrian native people because he has the same interessts. and there aree 1000 of ather example around.

Yes you are right we have a quite right orientated party in austria, but this party never really won, just got more power than i want. And again to show you how super contra productive such parties are a small fact. due to the influence of this party in austria foreign people who live here can take their families to austria as before but those family members are no longer allowed to earn any money for 8 years. You really think that this rule is a good solution to make islamic womean independent from their husbands. You really think that such rules help that forain people who have no money and can not work will not get criminal? They just increase it, those guys are the reason for all those conflicts.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 08:59:54 AM
Quote
Christianity isn't "white"; it's an invasive variant of Judaism, just like Islam. ;)
Unlike Judaism, Christianity and Islam encourage their followers to spread (force) their beliefs to other cultures and races. Both Christianity and Islam are responsible for the subjugation and destruction of cultures worldwide. They need be either wiped out or confined to the Middle East.



Sure christianty, islam and judeism are all connected to each other. And jesus was a je-w what most people never consider.

Thats the reason why i never understand how the nazis could deal so fine with the church. well actually the reasons is close at hand. they where contradictional idiots that had no concept. but i wonder how the nazis explain this;-)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 09:02:44 AM
Quote
Islamists are responsible for most of the overpopulation in the developing world. Ever been in touch with a real third world/ Middle Eastern Muslim? I'd hardly call them my allies given their attitude to life, although I have nothing against them personally and have many Muslim friends.


yes i agree actually.
For me the islamists are just Arabic nazis. they are fascistic and racists as well. i wonder why the nazis don't love those islamists all, they lead all this super conservative dictator orientated live that they adore so much;-)
actually know also nice people from that regions, and i have a soft spot for their culture (and specially about Arabic percussion) but i hate it if religion gets to much might.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 09:03:39 AM
Quote

I don't agree. Things were said that were historically inaccurate, and people continue to fence-sit. How boring.


ok tell me what is incorrect again. the things you wrote where not in contradiction to what i wrote.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 09:09:07 AM
Quote

Modern thinking in a short summary. They got jobs, and behaved fine, so OF COURSE they belong anywhere they want to go. They contribute to capitalism and liberalism, that means they're GOOD!



no i did not say they where good or bad. i just said that any person belonging to the je-w-ish race in the third reich, (no matter how they behaved) where put to a concentration camp. the question if they where good or bad is not valid, the question if "why can any person be put into a concentration camp taken away from his home, just cause he is from another race, even if he totally adapted to all cultural habits, even to the religion of his nation and can not even remember the ancient cultures he derived from?". just imagine one day someone might find out that one of your grand mothers had some je-w-ish blood, and would put you to a concentration camp. what would you think about that.

And please stop this childish stereotypes that all people against nazis are just political correct brainwashed idiots. Use logic instead of stereotypes if this is not to heavy for you;-)
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on May 21, 2007, 09:15:57 AM
Quote
author=blitzkrieg
> Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy.
> Global warming: Didn't do anything to stop it and wasn't planning to; in line with every other country nowadays and back then also. His scope for increasing industrial output meant an INCREASE in pollutant output.

(more quotes here) (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Radical%20Ecology.htm)

> Overpopulation: German mothers who gave birth to many children were revered by the state propaganda. They were given medals and money. Bodies were badly needed for the war grinder.

Healthy offspring was rewarded, and at the same time room was sought so there would be no overpopulation (more land for more people).
At the same time you say bodies were needed for the "war grinder", debunking your own argument.

> Boring mass media: This is a non-point, seeing as what I find interesting you may not, and "mass-media" can mean any form of medium that covers an area, nation or continent. But even so, Hitlers propaganda made wide use of Germanys media output and controlled everything that went out on the airwaves.

Preferences aside - propaganda is everywhere, even today, but few notice it. It may be said that extensive propaganda is a modern phenomenon, but certainly not particular to the Third Reich.

> A perverse society: I can't think of anything more perverted than sending political enemies to ghettoes and concentration camps, and overtly indoctrinating the youth to unthinkingly tow the party line and breed them for war using school and social groups.

If your kitchen is infested with cockroaches, are you going to sit down and watch them nibble on your toes, or are you going to smoke them out? Try to understand how people felt at that time. The NSDAP had realized German culture had it's back up against the wall. Its death had to be prevented at all costs, and while they made some mistakes, most of the sometimes harsh measures were justified.

> Higher values like loyalty and adventure: Loyal to who? They weren't loyal to their culture or people, or even to themselves, they were loyal to Hitler and his corrupt political party. Pathetic loyalty like this is completely opposed to Nietzches idea of the uebermensch. And as for adventure, I guess it's a lovely adventure to be sent into a thousand miles of barren Russian steppe whilst getting shot at!

They were loyal to their culture and people because they strived to prevent both from degenerating into their American or Russian counterparts. Germany at that time had its own culture, which you know nothing about. For me, your remarks are full of hate.


Ah ok "room was sough". again showing this arrogancy. From where they wanted to get this "room"? From other nations apart from the german one. Again showing me how arrogant and egoistic this shitty ideology was.

Well things are getting more expensive each year naturally, but at this time the propaganda of the third reich was surely the most expensive one in the world.

normal working people in the german nation who never behaved wrong where put to concentration camps. read the posts i wrote before.

Interesting, a nazi sympathizer blaming other to be hateful. You ever heard about the psychological phenomen of "projection" ;-)?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 21, 2007, 09:42:03 AM
Quote
author=blitzkrieg
> Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy.
> Global warming: Didn't do anything to stop it and wasn't planning to; in line with every other country nowadays and back then also. His scope for increasing industrial output meant an INCREASE in pollutant output.

(more quotes here) (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Radical%20Ecology.htm)

> Overpopulation: German mothers who gave birth to many children were revered by the state propaganda. They were given medals and money. Bodies were badly needed for the war grinder.

Healthy offspring was rewarded, and at the same time room was sought so there would be no overpopulation (more land for more people).
At the same time you say bodies were needed for the "war grinder", debunking your own argument.

> Boring mass media: This is a non-point, seeing as what I find interesting you may not, and "mass-media" can mean any form of medium that covers an area, nation or continent. But even so, Hitlers propaganda made wide use of Germanys media output and controlled everything that went out on the airwaves.

Preferences aside - propaganda is everywhere, even today, but few notice it. It may be said that extensive propaganda is a modern phenomenon, but certainly not particular to the Third Reich.

> A perverse society: I can't think of anything more perverted than sending political enemies to ghettoes and concentration camps, and overtly indoctrinating the youth to unthinkingly tow the party line and breed them for war using school and social groups.

If your kitchen is infested with cockroaches, are you going to sit down and watch them nibble on your toes, or are you going to smoke them out? Try to understand how people felt at that time. The NSDAP had realized German culture had it's back up against the wall. Its death had to be prevented at all costs, and while they made some mistakes, most of the sometimes harsh measures were justified.

> Higher values like loyalty and adventure: Loyal to who? They weren't loyal to their culture or people, or even to themselves, they were loyal to Hitler and his corrupt political party. Pathetic loyalty like this is completely opposed to Nietzches idea of the uebermensch. And as for adventure, I guess it's a lovely adventure to be sent into a thousand miles of barren Russian steppe whilst getting shot at!

They were loyal to their culture and people because they strived to prevent both from degenerating into their American or Russian counterparts. Germany at that time had its own culture, which you know nothing about. For me, your remarks are full of hate.



Environment: Intention is all well and good, but what did they actually do? Nothing - their selfish war cut it short.

Overpopulation: Perhaps after a victorious war the population would have been allowed to settle to appropriate numbers. Before that it definately wasn't the case.

Propaganda/media: Yes it is everywhere today - but the difference is today you aren't killed for tuning into different propaganda or ignoring the states own.

Perverse society: Your reference to enemies of indigenous culture as 'cockroaches' is simply vile. And you accuse me of hate? They didn't need to be got rid of in this way - most Jews were completely loyal to the German state as they were during WW1. How ironic that Hitler may have lost WW2 simply because it remained too exclusive; millions of Jews and Slavs would have been willing to fight and die for Hitler if only he promised them a solution - and not a Final Solution (Jewish scientists would have most assuredly secured the atomic bomb for Hitler years in advance of the allied powers. One drop on Msocow and Russia, Britain and America all would have been forced to capitulate).

Values/loyalty: They weren't particularly loyal to themselves or their culture - otherwise they wouldn't have stood for the wholesale politicised Nazification of it. They were loyal to a culture, but it was increasingly twisted by Hitlers' visions. Also, how very assumptious of you to declare I'm both ignorant and hateful of all German culture, when you couldn't be further from the truth. FWIW, I'm visiting Germany in July for two months and then again next year for longer, and going on to take a German involved degree at university.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on May 21, 2007, 06:29:54 PM
Quote
Interesting, a nazi sympathizer blaming other to be hateful. You ever heard about the psychological phenomen of "projection" ;-)?


You know there's two kinds of hate, don't you? One is overt and easy to see. The other is sublimated, like resentment and envy, and manifests itself through passive, destructive actions. It's the Christian way and is inherited from Judaism and before it Zoroastrianism.

I think it would be a great pity to put people in concentration camps just because they were raised Christian. Of course, they will flood your society with Christian beliefs and eventually destroy it, but anything is better than hating innocent people who just happen to be Christian.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on May 21, 2007, 06:41:10 PM
Quote
Environment: Intention is all well and good, but what did they actually do? Nothing - their selfish war cut it short.

Overpopulation: Perhaps after a victorious war the population would have been allowed to settle to appropriate numbers. Before that it definately wasn't the case.


I think you confuse a few mistakes with bad intent. The Nazis enacted sweeping environmental laws, and eliminated many of the most wasteful aspects of society. They stopped stupid people from breeding, and changed a society divided by religion into one unified. It wasn't certain from the beginning that the war would be lost. "Mistakes were made." But those mistakes don't obliterate all the good things they did, or the fact that they found the best possible system of government. That's like us deciding that nothing further you say is important because you are ignorant of Nazi environmental policy and successes.

Fascist Ecology:
The "Green Wing" of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents (http://www.spunk.org/texts/places/germany/sp001630/peter.html)

we would do well to remind ourselves that National Socialism also embraced both a comprehensive ideology and an extensive legislative program for the "protection of nature." (http://www.mises.org/story/2119)

NAZI GERMANY AND THE ENVIRONMENT - ENVIRONMENTAL POLICIES AND VIEWS (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Radical%20Ecology.htm)

That should get you started.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Skrappelsen on May 21, 2007, 06:43:30 PM
Protector:

And please stop this childish stereotypes that all people against nazis are just political correct brainwashed idiots. Use logic instead of stereotypes if this is not to heavy for you.

This is a fair enough request, but then you go back and say something like this:

Interesting, a nazi sympathizer blaming other to be hateful. You ever heard about the psychological phenomen of "projection" ?

See, this is why people think you're a "politically correct brainwashed idiot".  You're jumping to conclusions you have no evidence for.  It is possible for a nazi symapthizer to be hateful, and it is possible for a nazi sympathizer to not be hateful.  It is possible for an antifascist, anti-nazi to be hateful and it is also possible for them to not be hateful.  Logic is funny sometimes, but there you have it.  For example, I could like Hitler’s economic policies but not get any thrill out of seeing Jews gassed.

This is not a neo-nazi forum.  I don't think anyone here is asking you to like the Nazis, much less neo-nazis!  Furthermore, no one is asking you to hate your Turkish or Jewish friends, or throw them in a camp or whatever else you seem to be thinking.  People are raising these facts because 1. they believe the Third Reich is not "evil" in a religious sense but like all historical events a mixture of desirable and undesirable things that we can take lessons from, lessons more complicated than "people who don’t love Jews are evil, therefore people who do love Jews are not evil", or "swastikas and marches are evil", and 2. the reason the bad things the Nazis did are stressed in modern propaganda is to cover up the failings of our society today.  It is the ultimate hypocrisy.  And many of the views you have espoused, especially in these so-called contradictions you keep bringing up, sound eerily like the messages from our TV telling us why the entire world should be run by international bankers and all regional cultures and peoples should be melted down and destroyed.  That is why people keep bringing this up even though no one blames you for disliking neo-nazis.

And if you are really black (what i dont believe) then better not mention those idiots to much; you are a shame for all black people on earth if you do that.

What you are essentially saying here is that there is only one opinion or set of opinions a black man is allowed to have.  This is also frequently a symptom of politically correct brainwashing.  A black man's opinions need not be based entirely on his own egotistic feelings.  Sometimes he can think for himself.  It is not relevant to any of his points what Hitler thought of blacks or what muslims once did to blacks.  I wonder if you would call your jewish friend a self-hating jew if you didn't think his political opinions were "jewish enough".  Furthermore you’re simultaneously decrying prejudice and at the same time espousing it:

why they chose islam as their religion. don't you know that the moslems sold the black people as slaves to USA. why collaboration with your historical enemies??

Should all black people hate all muslims forever because a few muslims sold African slaves a few centuries ago?  Couldn’t that be unproductive, sort of like the Nazis hating all Jews forever based on grudges they held?



To the people bickering back and forth about the “facts” of the Third Reich:

You seem to be in basic agreement on what values matter now, so why argue on what some regime in the last century believed or did or would have done if given the chance?  You’re wasting your time and energy.  You should be discussing what is immediately relevant and helpful here and leave historical revisionism for another time.


...

Oh and one more thing about nationalism:

Protector, you raise a good point that nationalism can be about freedom from foreign rule.  That is perfectly valid.  It is also a valid form of nationalism to reject foreigners taking up permanent residence in your country, and you should accept that such policies are not always a manifestation of hate and racism, even if they were when the Third Reich implemented them.  Right now there are debates going on in Israel about what to do about the growing population of foreign ethnic groups, and them wanting equal representation.  If it’s no longer run by Jews then it’s no longer Israel, it’s the same as everywhere else in the middle east.  Since you don’t hate Jews I’m sure you would think this was a shame.  Similarly, since I don’t hate Germans, I think it would be a shame if they traded off their country and their ethnic identity for temporary economic incentives or a feeling of moral superiority.  That’s what nationalism is about today.  It has nothing to do with Nazis or Neo-nazis.

Sorry for being too computer illiterate to figure out how to do quotes like you folks are.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 22, 2007, 03:23:05 AM
Quote

I think you confuse a few mistakes with bad intent. The Nazis enacted sweeping environmental laws, and eliminated many of the most wasteful aspects of society. They stopped stupid people from breeding, and changed a society divided by religion into one unified. It wasn't certain from the beginning that the war would be lost. "Mistakes were made." But those mistakes don't obliterate all the good things they did, or the fact that they found the best possible system of government. That's like us deciding that nothing further you say is important because you are ignorant of Nazi environmental policy and successes.

Fascist Ecology:
The "Green Wing" of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents (http://www.spunk.org/texts/places/germany/sp001630/peter.html)

we would do well to remind ourselves that National Socialism also embraced both a comprehensive ideology and an extensive legislative program for the "protection of nature." (http://www.mises.org/story/2119)

NAZI GERMANY AND THE ENVIRONMENT - ENVIRONMENTAL POLICIES AND VIEWS (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Radical%20Ecology.htm)

That should get you started.


Please don't insult my intelligence. It doesn't matter what their intent is. Anyone can have good intent. A moron can have good intent, but who the hell cares?

I don't know why everyone has an obsession about Hitler and his Nazi's. There were some good parts, but the bad parts made up for them and more. He failed spectacularly. We don't need the Nazi's as a role model and if ANUS or Corrupt ever wants to reach someone outside of the ten people who frequent both forums, we should drop this bullshit right now.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on May 22, 2007, 03:27:56 AM
Quote
To the people bickering back and forth about the “facts” of the Third Reich:

You seem to be in basic agreement on what values matter now, so why argue on what some regime in the last century believed or did or would have done if given the chance?  You’re wasting your time and energy.  You should be discussing what is immediately relevant and helpful here and leave historical revisionism for another time.


Agreed. They shouldn't even be brought up if it can be helped.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Immolation on May 22, 2007, 04:28:36 AM
Quote

Oh and one more thing about nationalism:

Protector, you raise a good point that nationalism can be about freedom from foreign rule.  That is perfectly valid.  It is also a valid form of nationalism to reject foreigners taking up permanent residence in your country, and you should accept that such policies are not always a manifestation of hate and racism, even if they were when the Third Reich implemented them.  


Yes, perhaps the American Indians should have done that when the first whites came over to their land. It raises an interesting question for a foreigner like me, how does one become "American" when the country is formed of descendants of immigrants from all over the world? Or is it just a first generation thing, where any generation after that is an "American" as long as they were born there? That raises the paradox that nobody can really belong to any country, because somewhere down the line, their ancestors were not born there  ;D
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on May 22, 2007, 05:52:23 AM
Quote
Yes, perhaps the American Indians should have done that when the first whites came over to their land. It raises an interesting question for a foreigner like me, how does one become "American" when the country is formed of descendants of immigrants from all over the world? Or is it just a first generation thing, where any generation after that is an "American" as long as they were born there? That raises the paradox that nobody can really belong to any country, because somewhere down the line, their ancestors were not born there  ;D


This is exactly the reason why nationalists are vehemently opposed to letting foreigners settle in their country. Because (real) nationalists want people to keep their own cultural identity, but they also realize that putting two different cultures together will inevitable cause friction (which is why some nationalists, like malcolm x for instance, are for segregation)

Quote
That raises the paradox that nobody can really belong to any country, because somewhere down the line, their ancestors were not born there


My ancestors bled for this country for 2000 years. Do you want to tell me that they are less or even equal to a bunch of people who just came here in the last 40 years to make money and other than that tend to be completely disrespectful? Do you have any idea what has happened in the Netherlands for the past ten years?

Every year during "dodenherdenking" (fourth of may) when we remember those who fell defending the Netherlands against the nazis there are reports of these ceremonies being disturbed by north-african youths (usually moroccans) There have been various reports of them violating the memorials and destroying the flowers. That's how much they appreciate that this country isn't a nazi-state.

But hey... I'm sure 10,000 years ago my ancestors were still living in germany or belgium so that gives the moroccans just as much right to be here as I do according to your reasoning.

I think you should reconsider.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Immolation on May 22, 2007, 06:35:38 AM
Quote

This is exactly the reason why nationalists are vehemently opposed to letting foreigners settle in their country. Because (real) nationalists want people to keep their own cultural identity, but they also realize that putting two different cultures together will inevitable cause friction (which is why some nationalists, like malcolm x for instance, are for segregation)


My ancestors bled for this country for 2000 years. Do you want to tell me that they are less or even equal to a bunch of people who just came here in the last 40 years to make money and other than that tend to be completely disrespectful? Do you have any idea what has happened in the Netherlands for the past ten years?

Every year during "dodenherdenking" (fourth of may) when we remember those who fell defending the Netherlands against the nazis there are reports of these ceremonies being disturbed by north-african youths (usually moroccans) There have been various reports of them violating the memorials and destroying the flowers. That's how much they appreciate that this country isn't a nazi-state.

But hey... I'm sure 10,000 years ago my ancestors were still living in germany or belgium so that gives the moroccans just as much right to be here as I do according to your reasoning.

I think you should reconsider.


Interesting. But then why did your ancestors invade my country and try to will their lifestyle upon it? (I'm originally from Indonesia - home of the Dutch East India company). The rest of your point is taken. But it doesn't answer the question of white arrival to the USA. If those who came 200 years ago did so in search of a new/better life, and pursued that at the expense of a vast number of indegenous peoples, how does it make it any less valid for someone to do this today?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Dionysius on May 22, 2007, 07:33:40 AM
Quote
Interesting. But then why did your ancestors invade my country and try to will their lifestyle upon it? (I'm originally from Indonesia - home of the Dutch East India company). The rest of your point is taken. But it doesn't answer the question of white arrival to the USA. If those who came 200 years ago did so in search of a new/better life, and pursued that at the expense of a vast number of indegenous peoples, how does it make it any less valid for someone to do this today?


Don't blame the people for the decisions that governments made. For one I blame my government more for bringing foreigners here instead of the foreigners who come here willing to work for a better future.

You have to consider the circumstances of the period of colonization. The Netherlands had to compete with the other european countries that were colonizing the world. If we hadn't taken Indonesia and set up the VOC we would have eventually become economically weak and taken over by the English too, just like Indonesia would have been taken over by the English or others if the Dutch hadn't taken it. I can apologize for what happened but it wasn't my decision was it? I can only influence the present, and only to a small extent (for instance by discussing on internet-forums) You can't hold the Dutch people responsible for what happened then, and focusing too much on the past eventually becomes a diversion to avoid addressing current issues. Regardless of what point you're trying to make I think comparing 15th century colonists with 21th century immigrants is like comparing apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Immolation on May 22, 2007, 08:08:05 AM
Quote

Don't blame the people for the decisions that governments made. For one I blame my government more for bringing foreigners here instead of the foreigners who come here willing to work for a better future.

You have to consider the circumstances of the period of colonization. The Netherlands had to compete with the other european countries that were colonizing the world. If we hadn't taken Indonesia and set up the VOC we would have eventually become economically weak and taken over by the English too, just like Indonesia would have been taken over by the English or others if the Dutch hadn't taken it. I can apologize for what happened but it wasn't my decision was it? I can only influence the present, and only to a small extent (for instance by discussing on internet-forums) You can't hold the Dutch people responsible for what happened then, and focusing too much on the past eventually becomes a diversion to avoid addressing current issues. Regardless of what point you're trying to make I think comparing 15th century colonists with 21th century immigrants is like comparing apples and oranges.


Fair point. I understand what you're saying here.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 01, 2007, 11:24:01 PM
just some thought and links i got in the last weeks i like to post even they are a bit isolated from the rest and maybge a repetition of things i said before.

in which way do you practice your love to your national folk and its traditions?
do you sit together with your fellow countrymen of all age and all social levels together in folk parties arm in arm? do you sing all those traditional songs they sung in the last centuries. do you dress in their tradition. if you dont what other things you do that show your national roots apart from listening to music no in your language for a style that is a very modern one;-)?

here some links for all of you loyal national traditional people in this forum:

http://www.gruenthaler-musikanten.de/images/VolksfestMuehldorf.jpg
http://www.graz-seckau.at/pfarre/graz-ragnitz/vielsaitig/JJF-Kons-Volksmusik-2006.jpg
http://www.volksmusik-franken.de/images/Schwarzenbacher/schwbachho.jpg

(i need to mention here that i dont considered such people automatically as nazi just because they like their own folk music, but they have similar cultural interests)

at the beginning black metal started often as a kind of misanthropic movement hating mankind, suddenly since the nazis could use black metal as toy for their ideology, many black metal fans started to love their folk over everything else. how could this happen? which people you love so much of your nation apart from the ones belonging to your metal scene btw?

anyway all of you who miss so much their national identity and therefore long for a new third reich:
you don't need any hitler to live in harmony with all those national traditions your ancestors had. hurray, they still exist :-)!
just cut your hair if you are male, throw away all your metal t-shirts , go to any small conservative village next to you and march together in their traditional costumes to their traditional brass orchestra music they play since centuries. you can have the same conservative live the nazis had and loved and you can finally be happy and live in peace.

And if you now want to tell me that the real german folk for example where the germanic tribes that where totally different before Christianity destroyed their culture then you have to realize that the nazis hardly brought back any germanic traditions. Apart from some runes on the SS costumes and the swastika (that is actually hinduistic) there is nothing hitler brought back from those times. in contrary he collaborated with the historic greatest enemies of the germanic tribes, the followers of the ancient roman empire. to explain you this information i like to explain how hitler got the name "third reich". he did not consider the germanic tribes as the first reich. he considered the ancient roman empire as the first reich, and the so called "holy roman empire of germany nation" (that lasted from medieval times till 1806) as the second one and continued with the third reich this tradition. nothing at all showing respect to the germanic tribes, just fake empty bullshit talks about that times. still church was ruling and god was not replaced by odin. nazis and catholic churches loved each other as both are antisemitic and they helped each other alot (like blessing the arms of the third reich army etc).

and for all of you who will now tell me how modern the new nazis are and how stupid i am because i still see them as they where in the third reich. just take a look at the nazi parties of today, they look the same as 60 years ago, have the same thoughts (just hiding the most harsh ones in order for better acceptance) as 60 years ago and are as ultra-conservative (and often very catholic as well) as before.
here some links for you as illustration to my words:

http://aktualne.centrum.sk/soumar/img/34/67/346703-slovenska-pospolitos.jpg
http://www.nouadreapta.org/imagini/mari/0407045.jpg  

nazi define their ideologies in their own word as conservative, so i really wonder why so many metal heads here want to make them look like a group of progressive tollerant guys towards new genres of music and art. nazis simply live in the past and always will. they never will accept such progressive music like metal that always tried to break tabus and provok. all art and music that was modern during the thrid reich was called "entartete kunst" (degenerated art) and i really dont see why they suddenly changed to a progressive movement after 60 years. Rock and metal music was always a strong expression of freedome and for individualistic thoughts. thats another reason why rock music will never be a part of any fascistic regime and thats why it always will be "entartete kunst" for them.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 01, 2007, 11:44:13 PM
Quote
Protector:

And please stop this childish stereotypes that all people against nazis are just political correct brainwashed idiots. Use logic instead of stereotypes if this is not to heavy for you.

This is a fair enough request, but then you go back and say something like this:

Interesting, a nazi sympathizer blaming other to be hateful. You ever heard about the psychological phenomen of "projection" ?

See, this is why people think you're a "politically correct brainwashed idiot".  You're jumping to conclusions you have no evidence for.  It is possible for a nazi symapthizer to be hateful, and it is possible for a nazi sympathizer to not be hateful.  It is possible for an antifascist, anti-nazi to be hateful and it is also possible for them to not be hateful.  Logic is funny sometimes, but there you have it.  For example, I could like Hitler’s economic policies but not get any thrill out of seeing Jews gassed.

This is not a neo-nazi forum.  I don't think anyone here is asking you to like the Nazis, much less neo-nazis!  Furthermore, no one is asking you to hate your Turkish or Jewish friends, or throw them in a camp or whatever else you seem to be thinking.  People are raising these facts because 1. they believe the Third Reich is not "evil" in a religious sense but like all historical events a mixture of desirable and undesirable things that we can take lessons from, lessons more complicated than "people who don’t love Jews are evil, therefore people who do love Jews are not evil", or "swastikas and marches are evil", and 2. the reason the bad things the Nazis did are stressed in modern propaganda is to cover up the failings of our society today.  It is the ultimate hypocrisy.  And many of the views you have espoused, especially in these so-called contradictions you keep bringing up, sound eerily like the messages from our TV telling us why the entire world should be run by international bankers and all regional cultures and peoples should be melted down and destroyed.  That is why people keep bringing this up even though no one blames you for disliking neo-nazis.

And if you are really black (what i dont believe) then better not mention those idiots to much; you are a shame for all black people on earth if you do that.

What you are essentially saying here is that there is only one opinion or set of opinions a black man is allowed to have.  This is also frequently a symptom of politically correct brainwashing.  A black man's opinions need not be based entirely on his own egotistic feelings.  Sometimes he can think for himself.  It is not relevant to any of his points what Hitler thought of blacks or what muslims once did to blacks.  I wonder if you would call your jewish friend a self-hating jew if you didn't think his political opinions were "jewish enough".  Furthermore you’re simultaneously decrying prejudice and at the same time espousing it:

why they chose islam as their religion. don't you know that the moslems sold the black people as slaves to USA. why collaboration with your historical enemies??

Should all black people hate all muslims forever because a few muslims sold African slaves a few centuries ago?  Couldn’t that be unproductive, sort of like the Nazis hating all Jews forever based on grudges they held?



To the people bickering back and forth about the “facts” of the Third Reich:

You seem to be in basic agreement on what values matter now, so why argue on what some regime in the last century believed or did or would have done if given the chance?  You’re wasting your time and energy.  You should be discussing what is immediately relevant and helpful here and leave historical revisionism for another time.


...

Oh and one more thing about nationalism:

Protector, you raise a good point that nationalism can be about freedom from foreign rule.  That is perfectly valid.  It is also a valid form of nationalism to reject foreigners taking up permanent residence in your country, and you should accept that such policies are not always a manifestation of hate and racism, even if they were when the Third Reich implemented them.  Right now there are debates going on in Israel about what to do about the growing population of foreign ethnic groups, and them wanting equal representation.  If it’s no longer run by Jews then it’s no longer Israel, it’s the same as everywhere else in the middle east.  Since you don’t hate Jews I’m sure you would think this was a shame.  Similarly, since I don’t hate Germans, I think it would be a shame if they traded off their country and their ethnic identity for temporary economic incentives or a feeling of moral superiority.  That’s what nationalism is about today.  It has nothing to do with Nazis or Neo-nazis.

Sorry for being too computer illiterate to figure out how to do quotes like you folks are.



well it is always the same. all opinions against nazis are always brainwashed political correct paroting slogans but any nazi opinions are super individual thought of very wise men.

what you wrote shows it clear to me. people in this forum call me a "politically correct brainwashed idiot" because i write lines i can not prove, but i did not hear anyone here accusing any nazi sympathizer beeing a brainwashed idiot, because he said that i do this "to sell more" and that i "live in a box" and that i am "parroting lines" i read somewhere. there  is not a single prof for that!! and at the beginning of the chat 80% of the posts where totally ful of such empty words and with no arguments at all. fortunately this changed a bit and people started to use arguments as well.

And by the way i just asked if you know the therm projection. i did not say it is for sure, just a chance that this might be the reason. in contrary to this all the nazi sympathizers here  where total sure about their empty simple postings. but actually i understand what you mean, well maybe i should not have written that.

and of course nazis can be without hate and anti nazis with hate. i never said anything contrary. i know how shitty many of those antifa guys behave, just seeing their ideologies as a reason for some fights. i never felt part of them. and i again have to repeat that i often said that nationalism does not necessarily have to be connected to racism. and i really wonder why you explain me the difference between nazis and other kind of nationalism. did not not already say that a couple of times? I can only repeat that the difference is the arrogancy and i also did not say that nazis nowardays are ruling. i just respond to the great number of people here who have great respect to hitler and see fascism as as the best solution to solve any problems they have.

i never said that people who don't like je-ws are evil (as long as they dont put them to concentration camps just for their race) i just think most of them are narrow minded and never got to know any personally and just follow the words hitler wrote so long ago.

and i never said that the third reich was the only evil regime. actually i think USA is getting closer and closer to the third reich, with all their intends to control the world, with all their talk about patriotism and with all their faith to god etc. And Europa is heading to be like USA. On the other hand the islamistic countries are just a kind of arabic thrid reich.
Did i get those opinions also from the propaganda in TV you think?
Stop telling me from where i get my opinions you have no prof for that at all.

i dont think this guy is black. he said that he hates the white cause they can not dance. this sounds so much like a white guy that want the black people look like some idiots that can just dance etc. and a black who knows what it means to be suppressed in a racistic governments just as USA in the beginning should be a bit more wise than to adore a regime that does the same. and interessting taht you said that one symptom of beeing political correct is only accepting one opinion. well as far as i understood you are not supporting fascism but anyway good for all those fascists here that there is one more perswon realising that fascism that always only accepts one opinon (the one of the fascistic leader)  is a extreme form of "policical correctness" as consequence. but strage that specially thos fascist use this therm very much agsaist me (thats actually the reason i used the therm "projection" as possible explanation for that).

no it is ok, they can be moslems, but they shall not think that islam is the symbol for the freedom of the black race, it is the contrary.

no i am not in agreement of the basic values of modern society.
I am against capitalism, against the EU as it only supports the ritch. i am against mainstream music and always showed that by never making musical compromises. and i am also not a nationalist or a patriot whereas all political parties around total focus on that topic since a while.  and i also think that democracy is more and more reduced and the large concerts rule everything. but in contrary to most of this forum my conclusion is not to replace democracy with fascism, i want the contrary because i neither want large concern to make decisions for me nor any fascistic leader.

and btw not hating je-ws generally does not mean to support israel. As a je-wish Austrian politician said many years ago. the israelic government is a good pupil of the third reich. the learned a lot from them. (my israelic coworker in my job as programmer thinks the same btw).

and once again. foreigners dont necessarily destroy
the identity of a culture, sure at the beginning it makes things more complicated, but just think about austria 100 years ago. the many slavoing people where there helping to build up vienna as it looks now. they are no total normal austrians and taht why in austrian telefonebooks you see that 30% of the names are totally slavonic ones, but they behave like austrians speak like austrians and think they are pure austrians. a lot of them are also very nationalistic and patriotic towards austria and some of them even are nazi because they can mentally filter away their roots quite well. anyway if you are so strict and see foreign people who just do normal low sold jobs in the countries as a foreign influence or a damage to cultural identity then you definitely have to see anything that derived from rock muck also as a foreign influence and therefore as a damage to its identity. and actually those "real nationalists" dont like this kind of culture therefore. imagine any klue klux klan member for example playing rock or even metal music during their "performances";-)

and to focus again on the black "roots" (or influences if you prefer) of rock music. thats why i mentioned it first: rock is historically multicultural music and now it is a part of european culture and identity just as the slavonic people in austria are now part of austrian culture.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Skrappelsen on June 02, 2007, 01:44:23 AM
Quote
well it is always the same. all opinions against nazis are always brainwashed political correct paroting slogans but any nazi opinions are super individual thought of very wise men.


Not at all.  I didn't mean to imply any such thing and I'm sorry you took it that way.  People aren't as unreasonable as you think; after all, they stopped accusing you of just being out to sell more records once you shot down that notion.  But remember you are the only one whose opinion seems absolute, that no one in the nazi party ever had a sincere wish for a better country and everything they did was hateful and destructive, and there were no good ideas.  Maybe that's not what you mean but that's how all your commentary reads.

Quote
a black who knows what it means to be suppressed in a racistic governments just as USA in the beginning should be a bit more wise than to adore a regime that does the same.


I suppose so, but I don't think he was advocating the enslavement or imprisonment of blacks so much as the pursuit of ethnic autonomy.  He simply separated the goal from the method.

Quote
and once again. foreigners dont necessarily destroy the identity of a culture, sure at the beginning it makes things more complicated, but just think about austria 100 years ago. the many slavoing people where there helping to build up vienna as it looks now. they are no total normal austrians and taht why in austrian telefonebooks you see that 30% of the names are totally slavonic ones, but they behave like austrians speak like austrians and think they are pure austrians. a lot of them are also very nationalistic and patriotic towards austria and some of them even are nazi because they can mentally filter away their roots quite well.


Yes, but things have changed a lot in Austria.  Change is not necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean all change should be accepted equally just because things are going to change anyway.  It should be up to the smartest and most healthy-minded of people to decide what direction to go in.  The type of people who understand that not all immigration is the same, and that letting a hundred immigrants in is not the same as letting in a million.

As for Israel, of course you don't have to support everything they do - I certainly don't.  But sympathize with the fact that they want to do things their own way instead of becoming like everyone else, which is what will happen if they let everyone else move in.  Again, it's being selective about change instead of proceeding forward blindly
with no plan assuming things will be alright.

Also, being traditional doesn't mean you never accept anything new.  It just means you go with the fundamental values that made a nation successful in the first place.  I think you're confusing traditionalism with conservatism.

I am tempted to contest some of the historical claims you made but I think it's important to remember that they don't matter that much.  I think we all agree that neo-naziism is not valuable, even if we all have differing reasons.  As for the NSDAP, I don't hate them but I can see that it was a failure.  I think the problem is that the slogan
"remember history or be doomed to repeat it" frequently gets interpreted into absurd notions like, "The nazis jailed pedophiles so if you are against pedophelia, you must be for the imprisonment of political dissidents and if you claim not to be, you're a hypocrite."  This is not a great exageration of the types of notions we hear today!  So I think it's good to let go of political labels and the knee-jerk reactions we have to them, along with simplistic categorical thinking.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 02, 2007, 02:43:06 AM
Being conscious of the fact that massive immigration inherently alters one's culture is the only healthy reaction one can have ; otherwise it is a masochistic attitude. That doesn't mean we have to be neo-nazis, that just means we have to be like everyone else was before 1850 : conscious of who we are and conscious of the fact that money and commerce isn't a justification for immigration.

The situation changed with the industrial revolution because everyone suddenly wanted to make money from the huge technological evolutions at the expense of whatever consequences it had. The expansion of technology multiplied the possibilities and ratio of gaining personal wealth, thus allowing a large part of the population to access self-destructive means of satisfying urgent but empty short-term materialistic needs.

Modern means of transportation became a tool for one's laziness and allowed immigration motivated by profit and decided by any inviduals, where previous invasions were only motivated by the desire to conquer one's land by force in a frontal conflict decided by leaders (except for Je-ws, who had been passive immigrants for millenia already, and had a materialistic outlook often associated with commerce -- the parallel is maybe one reason for today's dissidents anti-semitic reactions, don't you think ?).

The Nazi reference is used because it covers recent events of history where strong leaders had a sense of nationalistic conscience, and because most people are shocked by this evocation ; but what we should be aiming at is not 1930's Nazi Germany, but what preceeded it : the pre-industrial-revolution nations. Nazism was a reaction against some aspects of modernity, but existed within it, whereas our goals lie beyond modernity : the recurrence of the aspects of the past that made it healthier than our current order.

Our ideals for society already existed in Ancient Greece, Gaul, Germania, old Scandinavia, medieval Europe, and later kingdoms ; we're just wanting them back, and we'll ameliorate these models anytime necessary rather than following blindly an imperfect schema of the past.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on June 02, 2007, 06:30:44 AM
You are brainwashed if you say Hitler never did one good thing. You are brainwashed if you say he was a saviour of Europe and we should all follow his ideals nowadays.

"foreigners dont necessarily destroy the identity of a culture"

So how do foreign elements inserted into a pure culture make it more pure and distinct? We're not asking to play trumpets in a brass band or anything ridiculous like that; we just want the right to be with people who we are similar to so we can develop in our own time and maintain our own sense of familyhood. Change will always come, but not in the corrupt, modern sense of the word.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on June 02, 2007, 01:24:32 PM
To Protector:
My sources says, that svastika was discovered across whole area populated by indo-european folks or aryans in other words, so where's the paradox?

About USA: in case you didn't notice there is difference between imperialism and totalitarism(sensu nazism, fascism or in its worse incarnation: communism). Comparing USA to Third Reich is a fucking insult to both sides. USA have imperialistic tendencies while being multicultural, liberal, democratic and capitalistic and for sure have nothing in common with any form of national socialism.

Nazis are usually morons. But people considering themselves as satanists with all those hatefull statements are not so far from there either. Sodomy, total nihilism (in most obvious meaning, not in that nice and polished ANUS version) and simple hedonism as a solution to what (as presented by most idiotic bands which for sure doesn't use this words as a metaphor)? They should be happy in modern society, because mindles pleasures (granted by money = bait of capitalism) and fuck values, ideas and differences attitude are prevailing tendencies here. Should NS and satanism be rejected from metal?
My conclusion is that we can find beauty in both (and create poetry or even philosophy of it) if only we can see through simplistic functions they seem to attend in social mentality today.

You wrote that you don't want any fasistic leader to make decisions for you. I always think, that your music express some kind nostalgia after ancient times (no matter historic or fantastic), times, when you can be led by such a leader, when you may at most call him despotic, but never fasistic because such classification is against any logic in those simple(sensu delusionless) times. But i guess i was wrong, it was only my impression...At the end only you can for sure tell what your music is about.

Just like i wrote before J-e-w-s were nationalists and it help their culture and unique DNA survive...
Don't be silly thinking that your coworker ever gonna tell you that he supports genocide practiced by those bastards in Israel, even if you realize that it is necessary for them to keep their territory. Besides, people who lives outside of their country for too long, usually lose ability to comprehend situation in it.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 03, 2007, 02:51:35 AM
Quote

Not at all.  I didn't mean to imply any such thing and I'm sorry you took it that way.  People aren't as unreasonable as you think; after all, they stopped accusing you of just being out to sell more records once you shot down that notion.  But remember you are the only one whose opinion seems absolute, that no one in the nazi party ever had a sincere wish for a better country and everything they did was hateful and destructive, and there were no good ideas.  Maybe that's not what you mean but that's how all your commentary reads.


I suppose so, but I don't think he was advocating the enslavement or imprisonment of blacks so much as the pursuit of ethnic autonomy.  He simply separated the goal from the method.


Yes, but things have changed a lot in Austria.  Change is not necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean all change should be accepted equally just because things are going to change anyway.  It should be up to the smartest and most healthy-minded of people to decide what direction to go in.  The type of people who understand that not all immigration is the same, and that letting a hundred immigrants in is not the same as letting in a million.

As for Israel, of course you don't have to support everything they do - I certainly don't.  But sympathize with the fact that they want to do things their own way instead of becoming like everyone else, which is what will happen if they let everyone else move in.  Again, it's being selective about change instead of proceeding forward blindly
with no plan assuming things will be alright.

Also, being traditional doesn't mean you never accept anything new.  It just means you go with the fundamental values that made a nation successful in the first place.  I think you're confusing traditionalism with conservatism.

I am tempted to contest some of the historical claims you made but I think it's important to remember that they don't matter that much.  I think we all agree that neo-naziism is not valuable, even if we all have differing reasons.  As for the NSDAP, I don't hate them but I can see that it was a failure.  I think the problem is that the slogan
"remember history or be doomed to repeat it" frequently gets interpreted into absurd notions like, "The nazis jailed pedophiles so if you are against pedophelia, you must be for the imprisonment of political dissidents and if you claim not to be, you're a hypocrite."  This is not a great exageration of the types of notions we hear today!  So I think it's good to let go of political labels and the knee-jerk reactions we have to them, along with simplistic
categorical thinking.


yes sure i noticed that the mood of this thread changed in a positive way, but the first reactions where totally based on such stereotypes.

i think the problem is that many people here that sympathize with he nazis simply dont know enough about them and just think about all those super bombastic performances and speeches the nazis did that looked already like some kind of rock show than seeing the facts. it is not my interpretation that the nazis considered their country as better than all others and that they wanted to conquer the word. just think about what the nazis said al the time "heute deutschland, morgen die ganze welt" (today germany, tomorrow the whole world"). and even the more informed nazi sympathizers here indirectly concede this point by saing that that nazis wanted to gain more space for their german race. ok maybe there where positive aspect in the nazi regime but not more than for example in any taliban regime; they might also have postivie aspects there.

and if you really think the nazis where not hatefull just take a loot at hitler speaches (showing the intention of him) and their deeds, its only about hate, just see what they did in the "reichskristallnacht" see the propaganda they made. these are fact, not interpretations. better to juge the nazis by the things they did not by the image they created around themselves. if you just see the propaganda of a government any kind of dictatorship looks super cool and perfect.

about the immigrants. actually i did not really want to talk about that so much as it goes to far away from the nazis topic. but i like to mention that i am not that super ultra strict guy that sees any person who is against immigrants as a nazi! i think thats a bad thing a lot of antnazis do. accusing any person that it not super multicultural as nazis; its a very bad thing for me because it makes the nazis look to harmless, they where much more heavy than   that.

no the difference was already discussed (conservative <=> traditionalist). i understand what you mean, but there is not the slightest doubt that the nazis then belong to the conservatives and NOT to the traditionalists. and it is again a FACT that the nazis did not welcome any kind of new art (once again "entartete kunst") and even burned it!
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 03, 2007, 02:55:43 AM
Quote
Our ideals for society already existed in Ancient Greece, Gaul, Germania, old Scandinavia, medieval Europe, and later kingdoms ; we're just wanting them back, and we'll ameliorate these models anytime necessary rather than following blindly an imperfect schema of the past.


for example which ideals of medieval europe would you like to bring back?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 03, 2007, 03:03:58 AM
Quote
You are brainwashed if you say Hitler never did one good thing. You are brainwashed if you say he was a saviour of Europe and we should all follow his ideals nowadays.

"foreigners dont necessarily destroy the identity of a culture"

So how do foreign elements inserted into a pure culture make it more pure and distinct? We're not asking to play trumpets in a brass band or anything ridiculous like that; we just want the right to be with people who we are similar to so we can develop in our own time and maintain our own sense of familyhood. Change will always come, but not in the corrupt, modern sense of the word.


well as i wrote before i varied this line a bit and now say the hitler just did not bring more positive aspects than any other kind of terror regime would bring such as a taliban regime. but anyway no matter what positive things he brought at the end he destroyed everything by not stopping a war that was already obviously lost 2 years before the official end and that just meant the destruction of german culture and houses and the death of additional thousands of german soldiers/people.

i already explained a couple of times how foreign influences can make the own culture more strong. just think about all those arabic instruments i mentioned in my postings that where the origin of the european instruments now used in classical music, or about the black influences that lead finally to rock and metal. neither does classical music sound like arabic music nor does metal music sound like black music, but both helped creating an own cultural identity. and once again, being against immigrants doe not necessarily mean to be a nazi!

and i also like to be with people that are similar to me, thats why i prefer to talk with a guy with a similar taste in music of a different nation 100 times more than to talk with an austrian with total different interests.

and btw why is playing trumpet in a brass orchestra redicolous for you, its traditional folk music?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 03:13:35 AM
Quote

for example which ideals of medieval europe would you like to bring back?


The ideal of love (see the "Amour Courtois"), the ideals of knighthood, the system of feudality where people have a real role in society depending on their nobility and abilities (leaders lead while warriors fight while craftmen craft while priests pray), the long-lasting monarchies where stability allows cultural achievements that span several centuries (the evolution of music for example, and other high arts such as realist painting), etc. Nobility of heart and of will. Better organization of society, more organic and logical.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 03, 2007, 03:14:52 AM
Quote
To Protector:
My sources says, that svastika was discovered across whole area populated by indo-european folks or aryans in other words, so where's the paradox?

About USA: in case you didn't notice there is difference between imperialism and totalitarism(sensu nazism, fascism or in its worse incarnation: communism). Comparing USA to Third Reich is a fucking insult to both sides. USA have imperialistic tendencies while being multicultural, liberal, democratic and capitalistic and for sure have nothing in common with any form of national socialism.

Nazis are usually morons. But people considering themselves as satanists with all those hatefull statements are not so far from there either. Sodomy, total nihilism (in most obvious meaning, not in that nice and polished ANUS version) and simple hedonism as a solution to what (as presented by most idiotic bands which for sure doesn't use this words as a metaphor)? They should be happy in modern society, because mindles pleasures (granted by money = bait of capitalism) and fuck values, ideas and differences attitude are prevailing tendencies here. Should NS and satanism be rejected from metal?
My conclusion is that we can find beauty in both (and create poetry or even philosophy of it) if only we can see through simplistic functions they seem to attend in social mentality today.

You wrote that you don't want any fasistic leader to make decisions for you. I always think, that your music express some kind nostalgia after ancient times (no matter historic or fantastic), times, when you can be led by such a leader, when you may at most call him despotic, but never fasistic because such classification is against any logic in those simple(sensu delusionless) times. But i guess i was wrong, it was only my impression...At the end only you can for sure tell what your music is about.

Just like i wrote before J-e-w-s were nationalists and it help their culture and unique DNA survive...
Don't be silly thinking that your coworker ever gonna tell you that he supports genocide practiced by those bastards in Israel, even if you realize that it is necessary for them to keep their territory. Besides, people who lives outside of their country for too long, usually lose ability to comprehend situation in it.


no there is a misunderstanding. my intentions was not to show any contradiction between swastika and german symbols. i just wanted to tell that the nazis did not bring many germanic elements back.

ok sorry, normally i write USA is tending into this direction. it is of course shit to say that they are like the third reich, but there are similar aspect. since the "patriot act" surely there happened a great step into a more fascistic direction, as people are now far more controlled and freedom is reduced.

But the wish to enlarge the control of USA to almost the whole world remind me more and more on the third reich. they just do it in a more clever and more relaxed way.  and btw capitalism and nazis are no contradiction for me.

yes you are right that summonings music has a strong nostalgic element inside, but i always can differ between fantasy and reality. i can go into a gothic church and enjoy the architecture, but that does not mean that i would like to live in medieval times with pest and bondage, being a kind of slave to your lord that owns my ground.

so you mean it is impossible that any israelic person can be against the israelic government?!
for example american people can be against the USA government, why not an Israeli against his government as well?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 03, 2007, 03:25:24 AM
Quote

The ideal of love (see the "Amour Courtois"), the ideals of knighthood, the system of feudality where people have a real role in society depending on their nobility and abilities (leaders lead while warriors fight while craftmen craft while priests pray), the long-lasting monarchies where stability allows cultural achievements that span several centuries (the evolution of music for example, and other high arts such as realist painting), etc. Nobility of heart and of will. Better organization of society, more organic and logical.


you support feudalism?
you see it as a postive aspect that any guy even if he is a retarded idiot will become a king if his father is a king as well?
you think it is good to have this fix roles? you think it is good that a son of a tailor will also be a tailor no matter what musical genius he might be? this means i would never have made music in those times as my parents are not connected to music?

you think hunting innocent women and accusing them as witches. then judging if they are witches by throwing them into the water and see if the stay on the surface or not is a more logical way of society!?

are you seriously telling me that those things are positive values that shall come back?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 03:31:23 AM
Quote

you support feudalism?
you see it as a postive aspect that any guy even if he is a retarded idiot will become a kind if his father is a kind as well?
you think it is good to have this fix roles? you think it is good that a son of a tailor will also be a tailor no matter what musical genius he might be? this means i would never have made music in those times as my parents are not connected to music?

you think hunting innocent women and accusing them as witches. then judging if they are witches by throwing them into the water and see if the stay on the surface or not is a more logical way of society!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????

are you seriously telling me that those things are positive values that shall come back????


Ask yourself where do nobles come from : they're former peasants who became heroes. Nobility is first nobility of actions and will. Only then do people become nobles and can pass on this title to their children. Bloodlines of kings are kicked out when they become decadent, by other bloodlines who rose up among the mediocrity : see how the Carolingians kicked out the decadent Merovingians' line. You're not trapped in your condition ; although past lives (your ancestors) often reflect accurately your potential.


EDIT: the witch hunt has nothing to do with the concept of feudalism in itself.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 03, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
Quote

Ask yourself where do nobles come from : they're former peasants who became heroes. Nobility is first nobility of actions and will. Only then do people become nobles and can pass on this title to their children. Bloodlines of kings are kicked out when they become decadent, by other bloodlines who rose up among the mediocrity : see how the Carolingians kicked out the decadent Merovingians' line. You're not trapped in your condition ; although past lives (your ancestors) often reflect accurately your potential.


EDIT: the witch hunt has nothing to do with the concept of feudalism in itself.



Yes and ask yourself what idiots children of heros can be. you prefer that people get a role because of their birth than because of their abilities.

And a retarded son of a king does not have to prove any nobility. he is automatically a king after his father has died. Ok it can happen that the folk makes a rebellion against a king if he is too stupid, but thats not the norm.

yes i know it is not belonging to the concept of feudalism but is is a fix element of medieval times.

EDIT: feudalism is just a kind of legalized version of       protectionism. you can say the same for capitalistic system where the son of a rich man will also be ritch even if he is an idiot.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 03:46:28 AM
Quote


Yes and ask yourself what idiots children of heros can be. you prefer that people get a role because of their birth than because of their abilities.


Their birth as noble inherently refers to abilities their ancestors proved, and I mean proved in a strong manner, with real conflicts and the hammer at hand (see Charles Martel), not political bullshit like today. If the sons don't show these qualities, then just kick them out, even if it might take longer than your lifetime.


Quote
And a retarded son of a king does not have to prove any nobility. he is automatically a king after his father has died. Ok it can happen that the folk makes a rebellion against a king if he is too stupid, but thats not the norm.


It will happen, it is inevitable ; it's just a matter of time. Sometimes it can take many generations, but in the end, weaker or incompetent king bloodlines are kicked out. The idiot son may rule over the country for his entire life, but the generations after him won't rule very long, objectively speaking. Of course a human lifespan is sometimes not enough to realize this process, but it's what happens, just look at history.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Azathoth on June 03, 2007, 06:03:49 AM
Quote

It will happen, it is inevitable ; it's just a matter of time. Sometimes it can take many generations, but in the end, weaker or incompetent king bloodlines are kicked out. The idiot son may rule over the country for his entire life, but the generations after him won't rule very long, objectively speaking. Of course a human lifespan is sometimes not enough to realize this process, but it's what happens, just look at history.


So it's better to have an idiot in power for a life time then 4 years max if it was a democracy, is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 06:12:13 AM
Quote

So it's better to have an idiot in power for a life time then 4 years max if it was a democracy, is that what you are saying?


When you change a king, everything can happen. When you change a democratic leader, nothing happens, because the democratic system doesn't place power in the hands of your so called leader. Powers are diluted in such a manner precisely designed to perpetuate the system and forbid change. You don't have the right to change the way politics are done in a democracy, you can't change the goals of a democracy (which are irrelevant and materialistic). Fuck democracy.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Azathoth on June 03, 2007, 07:53:24 AM
Quote

When you change a king, everything can happen. When you change a democratic leader, nothing happens, because the democratic system doesn't place power in the hands of your so called leader. Powers are diluted in such a manner precisely designed to perpetuate the system and forbid change. You don't have the right to change the way politics are done in a democracy, you can't change the goals of a democracy (which are irrelevant and materialistic). Fuck democracy.


If a king has more power than a democratic leader is obvious. But that could be good or bad. If a king would come to power and would do moron things that you would be against it what you could do it about it? Nothing. You would just be one more person on the crowd.

And the goals of a king aren't materialistic also? Wouldn't he also be interested in conquering land and riches for himself and for is own?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 09:27:43 AM
Quote

If a king has more power than a democratic leader is obvious. But that could be good or bad. If a king would come to power and would do moron things that you would be against it what you could do it about it? Nothing. You would just be one more person on the crowd.


I prefer to die for something rather than live for nothing. Our current democracy does not allow me to die for something ; I can't even give my life to make change, while I could do that in older times. Think about it.


Quote
And the goals of a king aren't materialistic also? Wouldn't he also be interested in conquering land and riches for himself and for is own?


Most kings were able enough to recognize the need for a sufficient degree of social cohesion, the need for a sufficient cultural foundation and the need for sufficient values for the society to survive. Our current society does not see this.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on June 03, 2007, 09:58:40 AM
Quote

well as i wrote before i varied this line a bit and now say the hitler just did not bring more positive aspects than any other kind of terror regime would bring such as a taliban regime. but anyway no matter what positive things he brought at the end he destroyed everything by not stopping a war that was already obviously lost 2 years before the official end and that just meant the destruction of german culture and houses and the death of additional thousands of german soldiers/people.

i already explained a couple of times how foreign influences can make the own culture more strong. just think about all those arabic instruments i mentioned in my postings that where the origin of the european instruments now used in classical music, or about the black influences that lead finally to rock and metal. neither does classical music sound like arabic music nor does metal music sound like black music, but both helped creating an own cultural identity. and once again, being against immigrants doe not necessarily mean to be a nazi!

and i also like to be with people that are similar to me, thats why i prefer to talk with a guy with a similar taste in music of a different nation 100 times more than to talk with an austrian with total different interests.

and btw why is playing trumpet in a brass orchestra redicolous for you, its traditional folk music?


Don't get me wrong - I fully agree Hitler was a lunatic and the rest of his party were cowards when it came to stopping the obviously lost war, and that a lot of the time his rhetoric and actions were based on silly hatred, and he is responsible for some of the worst things to happen in history :-).

Your example of culture exchange with the instruments etc I would say as positive changes that were introduced and assimilated organically and healthily, we can always learn from other cultures. What I meant was change in the modern sense of the word means forced submission to a wholesale foreign culture and their people. E.G. millions of third world immigrants, and foreign religions and traditions gaining prominence over our own. This is purely destructive. This destroys a peoples genetics and their culture, and should be completely reversed. And it isn't just being around people who are like you in spirit, but the way they actually look too IMO. I don't think you need foreign people to talk to metal about.

BTW, this discussion on feudalism. I'm not opposed to it really but it wouldn't be my preferred choice. It leads to corruption of the peasants and the lower classes and the kings become easily decadent. TBH I wish things were back how they were in the stone age, family bonds and inter-tribal agreements made up the politics side of things and everyone had plenty of space to call their own. Democracy isn't so bad if the population is decreased and everyone is well adjusted and perceptive, unlike most today.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Azathoth on June 03, 2007, 10:12:11 AM
Quote

I prefer to die for something rather than live for nothing. Our current democracy does not allow me to die for something ; I can't even give my life to make change, while I could do that in older times. Think about it.


You can die fighting for you country. Join the army. You can become a politician and try to fight for your own ideas. You can try to be rich and powerful. You can be a well respected person in the society. You can be an astronaut and go the moon. You can also work at the MacDonald's and earn a lousy salary. It's up to you. You seem to have a romantic idea about the middle ages probably because you can't fit in today's society. Do you now Darwin's law? Try to fit to your environment or be killed. If you want to be big in today's society you must obey their values although you do not agree with them. Or you could remain the rest of your life wishing that you had a time machine. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 10:34:27 AM
Azathoth : about joining the army (if you meant in a litteral sense) : "fighting for your country" in the army actually means fighting for the goals defined the current politicians. I would fight to kick out strangers, but not to enslave the middle-east to get oil for example. I hope that people who read this understand that joining the army today is pointless and serves the entropy we're all against.

You do have a point on some of the other things of your post ; local politics do make a change, for example. But obeying the values of our current society ? Never.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Azathoth on June 03, 2007, 10:50:27 AM
Quote
Azathoth : about joining the army (if you meant in a litteral sense) : "fighting for your country" in the army actually means fighting for the goals defined the current politicians. I would fight to kick out strangers, but not to enslave the middle-east to get oil for example. I hope that people who read this understand that joining the army today is pointless and serves the entropy we're all against.

You do have a point on some of the other things of your post ; local politics do make a change, for example. But obeying the values of our current society ? Never.


And in the middle ages you would be fighting for the goals defined by your king. Probably fighting to enslave the middle-east because of land, religion and riches. It's the same thing. The values of today's society are the same as the 1st century. Money and/or social status.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 03, 2007, 11:00:21 AM
Quote

And in the middle ages you would be fighting for the goals defined by your king. Probably fighting to enslave the middle-east because of land, religion and riches. It's the same thing.


Not really, except when a pope suddenly decided that Europeans should "liberate" the tomb of Christ. Then followed eight (?) crusades. Otherwise, nothing of that nature in the last 2700 years around here. On the contrary, our current society does this on a permanent basis that's promised to last eternally since it is its very fuel.


Quote
The values of today's society are the same as the 1st century. Money and/or social status.


Except that these two values weren't the only ones. What do you do with prechristian religions, culture, and values ? Everyday life was living among culture and religion so to speak, because culture and religion were not different from the living people. Today these things are dissociated.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 04, 2007, 05:34:39 AM
Quote

Their birth as noble inherently refers to abilities their ancestors proved, and I mean proved in a strong manner, with real conflicts and the hammer at hand (see Charles Martel), not political bullshit like today. If the sons don't show these qualities, then just kick them out, even if it might take longer than your lifetime.



It will happen, it is inevitable ; it's just a matter of time. Sometimes it can take many generations, but in the end, weaker or incompetent king bloodlines are kicked out. The idiot son may rule over the country for his entire life, but the generations after him won't rule very long, objectively speaking. Of course a human lifespan is sometimes not enough to realize this process, but it's what happens, just look at history.


well i consider many of the nazi metal heads as some kind of lost disorganized people who long for political incorrectness to get attention, but who won't really deal with the nazi ideology deeper and dont't see the consequences. actually your love for feudalism shows me that you rather belong to the more established nazi sympathizers, seeing the nazi movement with all its aspects, and understanding that this ideology is  just the most extreme form of conservativeness, and not wanting to make then look like some modern, open minded bunch of guys (like some people here want them to see). do you reall isten to metal music like death or black metal?
my intentions are to show the people here that metal as symbol of rebellion does not suit to fascism thats the symbol of slavoury, my arguments are not made for any other scene. most of my arguments are not valid for you as you seem to understand what this ideology means and so there is no need to convince you. your sympathy for feudalism for example is for me the greatest argument against national socialism as it shows the connection between both systems.

anyway i consider any king that never did anything to get the might and lives in luxury while his folk starves as a disgusting parasite; nothing else. no matter how "nobel" behavior he learned all the time in his childhood, how glamorous he is dressed, and how much makeup, lipstick and perfume he is wearing; he will always be a lousy parasite for me.but thats whats the nazi ideology is based on as well, they want people to give everything (even their live) to their leaders (lords) to enable them luxury while they almost starve. cringingness and subservience was always an important value for repression and now it seems to get attacktive again for some weired people.

And btw who decides who is a hero and deserves to become aristocratic?
do you think that a rebel those times fighting gainst the suppression of the lords organizing a  insurgence to make the life of his folk better would be seen as  hero by the "blue blooded" and they will make him a king?  For sure not! they will torture him and then execute him, but actually this guy would be the greatest hero for me.

You can be happy if you like the way that power was passed to the offspring in feudalism. just take a look at the quite retarded George W. Bush. I dont think he became president because he is so damn smart or experienced; he became president because his father was president once and could help him to enter the white house. here you have your modern version of feudalism, enjoy.

or think about "richard hilton". i don't adore any hotel owners at all, but i think you need a certain talent to build such a kind of huge hotel empire. do you think that "paris hilton" has also those abilities? for me capitalism is not so far away from feudalism in that point; at least in both systems the son of a super rich guy will also be rich no matter what stupid idiot he might be. and also in capitalism people with more money are considered as the more nobel ones with more culture. both systems do their best to blind the average folk with their money, luxury and might. some swallow this shit, some don't.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 04, 2007, 05:44:21 AM
Quote

Don't get me wrong - I fully agree Hitler was a lunatic and the rest of his party were cowards when it came to stopping the obviously lost war, and that a lot of the time his rhetoric and actions were based on silly hatred, and he is responsible for some of the worst things to happen in history :-).

Your example of culture exchange with the instruments etc I would say as positive changes that were introduced and assimilated organically and healthily, we can always learn from other cultures. What I meant was change in the modern sense of the word means forced submission to a wholesale foreign culture and their people. E.G. millions of third world immigrants, and foreign religions and traditions gaining prominence over our own. This is purely destructive. This destroys a peoples genetics and their culture, and should be completely reversed. And it isn't just being around people who are like you in spirit, but the way they actually look too IMO. I don't think you need foreign people to talk to metal about.

BTW, this discussion on feudalism. I'm not opposed to it really but it wouldn't be my preferred choice. It leads to corruption of the peasants and the lower classes and the kings become easily decadent. TBH I wish things were back how they were in the stone age, family bonds and inter-tribal agreements made up the politics side of things and everyone had plenty of space to call their own. Democracy isn't so bad if the population is decreased and everyone is well adjusted and perceptive, unlike most today.


well surely it is not a fine thing if millions of people have to run from their contry and live in another one that they dont even know before. but the questoin is not understanding the symptom, the question is understanding the solutions for it. is it really a solution if some nazi skinheads beat up some poor people who had such a bad situation that the prefered to immigrate. do you think that any of them likes to be an immigrant? but all those nazis, hooligan and skinheads just use this for a reason for a fight, they dont do anything aginst the reasons why stuff like this occurs. as you see in this discussion about feudalism you see there is always this great respect towards anything that is mighty. therefore a real nazi would not fight a huge concern that is responsible for much exploitation. secretly they have respect for, that why the nazis in the second world war did not have any problems collaborating with IBM for example. they just talk about being anti capitalistic, but those are just empty words. many of them surely got to mac donals, or by things in huge concerns.

and this form again showed that nazis still think in this imperialistic way with the right for colonies. they just still keep on sticking with all those things taht actually caused those problems.

and sure i can talk with austrians about metal, but i jsut wanted to tell you that for me the similarity of interests is far more important than the similarity of the nation. and actually i think even the nazi metal heads hear think that althoug they would never confess it, because i can not imagine any of those nazi black metal kids seeing his greatest pleasere in sozialising around in various social levels talking with any kind of person as long as he is from his country. they also see the similary of interessts as the most important thing, thats why you always see a bunch of metal heads hanging around together but never a metal head with some banker or farme etc.

and once again i really need to repeat that to make this thing clear. national socialism is based on fascism and racism, these are two things that are not the same. fascism is about total control of the folk and leader-cult, whereas racism is a simplified way of judging peoples personality by their race. and this again does not necessarily have to be connected to nationalism. there are there different therms that should not be mixed to easily.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on June 04, 2007, 10:51:19 AM
Quote

well surely it is not a fine thing if millions of people have to run from their contry and live in another one that they dont even know before. but the questoin is not understanding the symptom, the question is understanding the solutions for it. is it really a solution if some nazi skinheads beat up some poor people who had such a bad situation that the prefered to immigrate. do you think that any of them likes to be an immigrant? but all those nazis, hooligan and skinheads just use this for a reason for a fight, they dont do anything aginst the reasons why stuff like this occurs. as you see in this discussion about feudalism you see there is always this great respect towards anything that is mighty. therefore a real nazi would not fight a huge concern that is responsible for much exploitation. secretly they have respect for, that why the nazis in the second world war did not have any problems collaborating with IBM for example. they just talk about being anti capitalistic, but those are just empty words. many of them surely got to mac donals, or by things in huge concerns.

and this form again showed that nazis still think in this imperialistic way with the right for colonies. they just still keep on sticking with all those things taht actually caused those problems.

and sure i can talk with austrians about metal, but i jsut wanted to tell you that for me the similarity of interests is far more important than the similarity of the nation. and actually i think even the nazi metal heads hear think that althoug they would never confess it, because i can not imagine any of those nazi black metal kids seeing his greatest pleasere in sozialising around in various social levels talking with any kind of person as long as he is from his country. they also see the similary of interessts as the most important thing, thats why you always see a bunch of metal heads hanging around together but never a metal head with some banker or farme etc.

and once again i really need to repeat that to make this thing clear. national socialism is based on fascism and racism, these are two things that are not the same. fascism is about total control of the folk and leader-cult, whereas racism is a simplified way of judging peoples personality by their race. and this again does not necessarily have to be connected to nationalism. there are there different therms that should not be mixed to easily.


I don't understand, I am agreeing with you that Nazism and Neo-Nazism are both mistakes! I also agree that people who stand to be against the current form of capitalism are often lying or have double standards, and imperialism is wrong.

"for me the similarity of interests is far more important than the similarity of the nation"

But doesn't the similarity of the nation mean more similarity of interests for its people? Common values and stronger and more defined culture can only help create similarities between two people in a country.

I would argue that NSDAP is different to national socialism, you can't mistake the theory of the political idealogy with the people who instigated it. Nationalism is about the country working as a self sustainable organic organism by itself with common ethnicites, goals and values. Socialism is about the government of a country helping to provide all of the populations basic needs to survive. National socialism in its most basic form is simply a mixture of the two, nothing to do with Nazism.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on June 04, 2007, 04:34:37 PM
Quote
Yes and ask yourself what idiots children of heros can be.


Not very likely. Intelligence is genetic:

Quote
Researchers have long recognized that for learning and memory to take place, certain genes must be activated to alter neuron activity inside the brain. Disruptions in normal gene expression within these neurons can lead to alarming consequences, such as seizures and epilepsy. But identifying and cataloging all the genes involved in learning is a daunting task. In the March 13 issue of BMC Neuroscience, Carnegie Mellon University scientists show how an innovative computational approach can provide a rapid way to identify the likely members of this long sought-after set of genes.  
 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070418104300.htm

Can you get smarter than a fifth-grader? Of course, but new research suggests some of the brain's basic building blocks for learning are nearing adult levels by age 11 or 12.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/ap_on_he_me/growing_brains

Kids with longer ring fingers compared to index fingers are likely to have higher math scores than literacy or verbal scores on the college entrance exam, while children with the reverse finger-length ratio are likely to have higher reading and writing, or verbal, scores versus math scores.
 
Scientists have known that different levels of the hormones testosterone and estrogen in the womb account for the different finger lengths, which are a reflection of areas of the brain that are more highly developed than others, said psychologist Mark Brosnan of the University of Bath, who led the study.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070523/sc_livescience/fingerlengthpredicts satperformance
Quote

Culture is genetic:

Quote
Soon after birth, infants are keen and sophisticated generalists, capable of seeing details in the world that are visible to some other animals but invisible to adults, older children and even slightly older infants.  
 
Recently, scientists have learned the following:  
 
* At a few days old, infants can pick out their native tongue from a foreign one.  
* At 4 or 5 months, infants can lip read, matching faces on silent videos to "ee" and "ah" sounds.  
* Infants can recognize the consonants and vowels of all languages on Earth, and they can hear the difference between foreign language sounds that elude most adults.  
* Infants in their first six months can tell the difference between two monkey faces that an older person would say are identical, and they can match calls that monkeys make with pictures of their faces.
* Infants are rhythm experts, capable of differentiating between the beats of their culture and another.  
 
The latest finding, presented in the May 25 issue of the journal Science, is that infants just 4 months old can tell whether someone is speaking in their native tongue or not without any sound, just by watching a silent movie of their speech. This ability disappears by the age of 8 months, however, unless the child grows up in a bilingual environment and therefore needs to use the skill.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070525/sc_livescience/infantshaveamazingca pabilitiesthatadultslack


Genes different 25% between ethnic groups

Quote
It has often been observed that people are different. Indeed, some observers have gone further to suggest that this diversity exists between people from different parts of the world, or of different ethnic groups, and it is hereditary. This latter observation has led to a certain amount of contention over time. As a result, many geneticists have been wary about asserting that such differences exist.
 
It may be surprising that over a quarter of the genes show differences between populations, but can these be explained away? It seems difficult to do this statistically: the P-values were corrected for the many tests that were carried out, and the authors carried out a couple of other tests, getting similar results.
 
Finding out what all this means for real humans, for their biochemistry, their physiology and their health, will require more detailed investigation of the genes that differ, and the roles they play in the body. This will require hard work in the laboratory, going beyond expression to looking at how it translates into variation between people. Perhaps, Heredity is not the best place to declare this, but there is more to life than genes.
 
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v98/n5/full/6800970a.html


Medically, altruism resembles drug addiction

Quote
The results were showing that when the volunteers placed the interests of others before their own, the generosity activated a primitive part of the brain that usually lights up in response to food or sex. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056. html


Intelligence has nothing to do with wealth (instead of sons of heroes, we are ruled by idiots who "earned" their power)

Quote
Intelligence has nothing to do with wealth, according to a US study
published Tuesday which found that people with below average smarts
were just as wealthy as those with higher IQ scores.
 
The US Bureau of Labor Statistics survey included 7,403 Americans who
have been interviewed repeatedly since 1979. Based on 2004 answers,
people who are now in their mid-40s showed no link between brain- and
earning-power.
 
"The average income difference between a person with an IQ score in
the normal range (100) and someone in the top two percent of society
(130) is currently between 6,000 and 18,500 dollars per year," it
said.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070425/od_afp/ussocietymoney


You're praising the society that enslaves you. I'm black, but I'm not a slave. You seem to be a slave. I do not understand your choice, as I would not be able to live a day in that much fear, resentment, hatred and servitude.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 05, 2007, 01:37:59 AM
Quote
do you really listen to metal music like death or black metal?


Yes I do ; although I've been listening to a lot of classical, ambient and folk music in recent years. Great Metal bands have enough musical qualities to be listened to even when you discover other great genres of music ; and these include Summoning :)


Quote
And btw who decides who is a hero and deserves to become aristocratic?


Nobody, except the hero himself who makes other people recognize what he did, most of the times simply by doing it ! There's not even the need for discussion or propaganda, acts speak for themselves. When Charles Martel did the job of the king and kicked out the Arabs who were trying to settle in, he immediately gained the legitimacy to become the king. Wise as he was, he even waited, because he just wanted to let the current king die so the people themselves could realize it was better to choose his bloodline as successors rather than the king's. As a result Charles Martel's son became king, while Charles Martel himself never became one. Further, the son of this son was... Charlemagne, a.k.a. Karolus Magnus, the Emperor of the Franks who ruled over Europe.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 05, 2007, 03:54:23 AM
Quote

I don't understand, I am agreeing with you that Nazism and Neo-Nazism are both mistakes! I also agree that people who stand to be against the current form of capitalism are often lying or have double standards, and imperialism is wrong.

"for me the similarity of interests is far more important than the similarity of the nation"

But doesn't the similarity of the nation mean more similarity of interests for its people? Common values and stronger and more defined culture can only help create similarities between two people in a country.

I would argue that NSDAP is different to national socialism, you can't mistake the theory of the political ideology with the people who instigated it. Nationalism is about the country working as a self sustainable organic organism by itself with common ethnicities, goals and values. Socialism is about the government of a country helping to provide all of the populations basic needs to survive. National socialism in its most basic form is simply a mixture of the two, nothing to do with Nazism.


hmm i am confused as well:-)
you say you agree with me and i don't see what in my last posting made you think that i think you don't agree?

well i added some more information to this point. maybe you thought all this information is meant as argument against yours. sorry if that caused confusion.

specially in times of Internet national borders become less important. now you can talk easily with people that even live on the other side of the world.  what common interests should i have with an austrian rich banker for example? i don't see any?

and about nationalism. i neither think they had any socialistic element inside as they where based on social davinism, nor on any real national element.  i told before that actualyl the nazis where nor real nationalists if you take a deep look at their ideology. a real nationalist wants to to be independent from others, the more harsh nationalists dont even want foreign influences at all. but what did the nazis doe? they invaded like maniacs any contry they could see in order to get more space for their aryan master race folk. this means that they wanted germans to live on a ground that has neither any historic nor cultural connection to them. can anybody here  imagine what  they would have done if they would have one the war? you think they would have left poland, russia and all other countries alone again. so what about their additional space they need. it is obvious that they would have stayed there and even likely that they would have forced the people their to speak german and put lots of them to concentration camps.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 05, 2007, 04:00:41 AM
Quote
Not very likely. Intelligence is genetic:


so you think paris hilton could also have built up an hotel empire like her father?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 05, 2007, 04:05:55 AM
Quote

Yes I do ; although I've been listening to a lot of classical, ambient and folk music in recent years. Great Metal bands have enough musical qualities to be listened to even when you discover other great genres of music ; and these include Summoning :)



Nobody, except the hero himself who makes other people recognize what he did, most of the times simply by doing it ! There's not even the need for discussion or propaganda, acts speak for themselves. When Charles Martel did the job of the king and kicked out the Arabs who were trying to settle in, he immediately gained the legitimacy to become the king. Wise as he was, he even waited, because he just wanted to let the current king die so the people themselves could realize it was better to choose his bloodline as successors rather than the king's. As a result Charles Martel's son became king, while Charles Martel himself never became one. Further, the son of this son was... Charlemagne, a.k.a. Karolus Magnus, the Emperor of the Franks who ruled over Europe.


ok i must confess, i am surprised that you listen to metal.

ok but where is the difference to capitalism and feudalism in that point? the son of a rich guy will also be rich (i would say cause he had better chances in live becuase of his father, you surely will tell me that he is rich because of his intelligence and ability inheritance).  but in any case the abilities of the father are past to his offsprings, but still there is the chance existing that there will be a pour guy having so much abilities to get rich like those guys you mentioned that became aristocratic.

i just know that i surely never would have become a king in those times and surely never would have intended it. but i am happy in these modern times i had this chance to make music ( a chance I would not have had in feudalism) although i can not see any musical abilities when i think about my father, mother, grandmother etc.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Protector on June 05, 2007, 04:08:49 AM
But anyway the last talks make it even more clear for me that metal music is in great concentration to national socialism (as well as feudalism).

originally the metal scene was totally contrary. before guys like varg vikingers appeared, metal music meant to be free in mind, to be against rules, to be proud about yourself rather than about your nationality etc. suddenly this changed and instead of freedom, metal-heads now long for dictatorship and control. instead of being against rules they want a fascistic system thats the symbol of rules and and extreme conformance. in the past metal heads wanted to be different from the average and against the mainstream and showed this by dressing different having long hair etc, now metal-heads support systems that prosecute anythings thats different. they still did not take the consequences so far and cut their hair to adapt their look to the mainstream, but a guy from poland told me that all his metal friends finally started to shave their heads and become skinheads. in the past metal heads wanted to be strong and any kind of cringingness towards anyone was something rather disgusting; now the blind obedience thats the most essential part of any fascistic system has replaced individual strength. instead of making decisions on your own, metal heads seem now to think they need a strong man that helps them to bring order into their life.

the most important official demanded values of the nazis where obedience and troth. if all those young nazi metal heads really feel so close to those values i would like to know whats so great in obeying and how this suits to rebellion?. whom you would love to obey so much, apart from hitler? why dont you just obey your parents, you can have that any time;-)

and about troth. Sure i am also loyal to my friends or ideals for example, but i am definitely not loyal to any guy who invaded austria with his german army without asking, then puting himself into the position as dictator and forcing all people to accept and love him and be loyal to him. thats something i will never do, as i will always decided for myself who deserves loylty and who deserves the contrary.

and something i would like to mention about the opinions that hitler did not bring "boring mass media" to the people which was written some time ago on that thread. does anybody of those nazi metal heads here know how the nazi regime entertained their nation? the third reich was the magic moment for german "schlager", which is surely the most cheesy, ridiculous and hypocritical music that exists. in this music the nazi government wanted to create a positive mood in their songs to keep an optimistic mood so that the german people can fight better on the battles and stand better the pain this war caused. 1942 the director of the national-socialistic department of culture called "Hans Hinkel" organized the "contest for the optimistic schlager"!
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Immolation on June 05, 2007, 05:46:37 AM
Military leaders and political ideologues have made use of the failures of democracy as the best argument to come to power and to establish power for themselves. In doing so they have often promised that they will restore democracy and their military takeovers are just a means of restoring this. However, behind such deceptive propaganda are schemes of dictators who want to place military control over society doing away with every form of institutional life that has been established, either through attempts to develop democracy or on the basis of some ancient traditions of community cooperation among the people. Dictators cannot avoid being repressive and it is in that process of repression that Cambodia lost over one seventh of its population and all its institutions.

Also the tragedy of Pakistan was accompanied by the deceptive language of the necessity of dictatorship to reconstruct society.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on June 05, 2007, 09:15:58 AM
Quote
and about nationalism. i neither think they had any socialistic element inside as they where based on social davinism, nor on any real national element.  i told before that actualyl the nazis where nor real nationalists if you take a deep look at their ideology. a real nationalist wants to to be independent from others, the more harsh nationalists dont even want foreign influences at all. but what did the nazis doe? they invaded like maniacs any contry they could see in order to get more space for their aryan master race folk. this means that they wanted germans to live on a ground that has neither any historic nor cultural connection to them. can anybody here  imagine what  they would have done if they would have one the war? you think they would have left poland, russia and all other countries alone again. so what about their additional space they need. it is obvious that they would have stayed there and even likely that they would have forced the people their to speak german and put lots of them to concentration camps.


This is because the Nazi's were BAD national socialists. They were bad for a lot of things, and one of them was the image of nationalism and national socialism. I've explained this to a German friend of mine before and she actually managed to accept this, and came to agree that in concept, benevolent  nationalism is nothing bad.

On what may be called the "spirit of metal" and what you write about being individual. Metal isn't about trendy, petty rebellion against certain elements in society by dressing differently and listening to hardcore music. It's about rebellion against modern society as a whole, and so many of its followers come to agree that a different political system needs to replace our current one, one that is strong, healthy, heroic, and promotes unity amongst its people. The ideals of nationalism and fascism provide this.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on June 05, 2007, 02:34:01 PM
Quote
so you think paris hilton could also have built up an hotel empire like her father?


Two corrections:

1. Her father didn't build the hotel empire. Her grandfather or great-grandfather did.

2. She has a mother, too, and her mother is of no intellectual stature.

She's two generations minimum removed from some guy who didn't do something all that impressive in the first place.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on June 05, 2007, 02:35:04 PM
Quote
before guys like varg vikingers appeared, metal music meant to be free in mind, to be against rules, to be proud about yourself rather than about your nationality etc.


So we don't have the freedom to hate freedom?

What if we recognize that some rules must always exist, so we want better rules?

We don't have the freedom to be proud of ourselves AND our nationality?

Are you serious?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on June 05, 2007, 02:36:58 PM
Quote
i just know that i surely never would have become a king in those times and surely never would have intended it. but i am happy in these modern times i had this chance to make music ( a chance I would not have had in feudalism) although i can not see any musical abilities when i think about my father, mother, grandmother etc.


So you like the modern time better than the past, and you don't like anyone who wants to return to that past. Well, that explains why you are against national socialism! You like modern society. You support it. It is what you want.

The musical ability to make a rock album is not that big of a deal, I am afraid. You're not Beethoven. Neither was Bob Dylan. Both of you have made quality simple music. I'm not sure you have to have musical ability in the family for that!
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on June 05, 2007, 04:45:00 PM
About Azatoth previous notes:
If someone want to be a plitician he must bathe in shit. Others won't let you change anything, because they gonna defend their comfortable order by any means. It's just too many of them, and system seems unshakably established.

About darvinism: social darvinism, while seems parallel to natural, is in fact inversion of it. You can't even openly fight against threats or enemies. Illusoric and unstable laws creates confusion and paradoxes. In nature those who are most adaptated to environment will survive, but its barely half of the success. Other half is their freedom to do everything that is necessary, unaffected by morality, law (other than death), conscience, gods, to achieve goal, even if it means destroyng the world (this "selfishness"we firmly inherit from animals). In society if you are conformed to it as you claim, when somebody oppress you you must take some formal way to resolve problem or you gonna be punished.

You say that being most adaptated to society is, by darvin's law survival of the strongest (now conformity is a strenght?) while i say, that true darvinism is, that while being fit to environment, you should throw your will against entire world. That makes you leader, and that kind of specimens are truly the strongest. Leaders do not obey other's will (they are creating rules), weak specimens do that.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on June 06, 2007, 01:28:45 AM
Quote
ok but where is the difference to capitalism and feudalism in that point?


Capitalism is just ranking people by their paycheck. Feudalism is giving a place and a role to people in society depending of their inherited qualities and how they develop them through their life.

You seem to mean that the richest people are necessarily the most intelligent ; which isn't true. To be rich one just needs to be slightly above average and manipulate others in ways that the more intelligent people wouldn't want to use, because they would realize it's pointless to do so, especially if it's just for something as trivial as money.


Quote
the son of a rich guy will also be rich (i would say cause he had better chances in live becuase of his father, you surely will tell me that he is rich because of his intelligence and ability inheritance)


No as I said I don't consider money to be a proof of superior intelligence, it just shows that they're a bit above average (and it's not even always the case).


Quote
but in any case the abilities of the father are past to his offsprings, but still there is the chance existing that there will be a pour guy having so much abilities to get rich like those guys you mentioned that became aristocratic.


Of course ; a child is the combination of two bloodlines so he can show abilities his parents didn't have. Further, many things lie sleeping in our potential over many generations and can awaken with no apparent reason with the next generation. You carry much information and potential that maybe no one will express in your family until several generations after you  :)

But why do you reduce all of this to money ? There are more important things.


Quote
i just know that i surely never would have become a king in those times and surely never would have intended it. but i am happy in these modern times i had this chance to make music ( a chance I would not have had in feudalism)


Actually in those times if you showed enough talent you would have worked at the local choir. Then if you were really talented, you would have become the local kapellmeister. And if you were really amazing, maybe you could have become a figure in history, as "one of the only composers of the Middle-Ages whose name is known to us" or "the greatest perfectionist of harmony and counterpoint before Bach". Possibly even become the first "independent" musical artist, like Vivaldi did sometime later.

That's already great, no ?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on June 07, 2007, 05:48:07 PM
To Protector:
Metal as a symbol of rebellion? Another?!
First we got rock, then punk, later rave/techno was about it, and now almost every genre of music is about rebellion. Should metal really need to follow this path? So where (and why) is extremity or uniqueness in metal if it simply follows similiar ideas as people on "love parade"( they are more nihilistic than most of those corpsepainted "sodomizers").
I think, that you know what I'm talking about, because you are close enough to this german circus.

Also I think, that today many definitions are being distorted. Particular groups want some words to have pejorative meaning or loose it's original sense. They are doing it for many purposes. Examples: Nationalism, tolerance, deviation etc.
Tolerance receive freedom to certain groups while leaves other group without freedom of choice of being tolerant or not toward something. It's like we are invaded by this worldview and we must obey to it. So I guess metalhead should be also against such pressure of tolerance and be truly loyal to himself if he think otherwise. To be really "open minded" in my opinion is to see paradoxes in this wide spread demagogy.

Nationalism...I think that Impaled Nazarene are true nationalists. They love their land, culture and they hate "red scum", and I think that's great. But this alone was enough for media to call them nazis (they of course denying opinions about being NS).
So how twisted truth must be and primary meanings perversed? We haven't have such freedom to be nationalists as you claim (sensu loving our fatherland and place business of our country above others...or maybe Impaled should equally with Finland glorify their enemies, "red scum"?)

Reason of these aberrations: to earn money you don't need any ideology,national identity,or sexual orientation. Just work, play (spending money) and shut the fuck up. You can of course have your "unique", "anti-everything" look (that's the point, where your difference from other peons ends) or whatever else, if it satisfy your facile ideas about rebellion or freedom.

About being proud of yourself: I've got enough of seeing morons who are so proud of themselves only because they can( everyone assure them about it) even if there is really nothing to be proud of.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Ruben on August 11, 2007, 03:41:15 PM
Quote

Although i am far from a Nazi supporter this simple is not true. Its common sense to keep generals and other important figures from harms way, other wise you run great risk of losing them, and as such losing the war, and going hungry or sleeping on a cold bed isn't going to help your soldiers at all. Secondly they do care about their people, which is why they don't allow "inferior" races to breed with them, why they follow eugenics (in terms that a strong person produces strong sons as opposed to an unscientific thought that Jews and the like make inferior children). Everything they did was for their people, the only problem was if you were not one of their people.



Hitler threw away the lives of thousands on the battlefield.  He ignored his generals requests for a surrender and/or withdrawal during battles that they could no longer win.  Generals in Stalingrad were told to fight to the last man even though all hope was lost.  Hitler would not allow a surrender!  Also, Hitler took the easy way out and shot himself without allowing for a German surrender toward the end of the war.  He knew the Russians would soon advance into Germany and wreak malicious havoc on German citizens and there was no way out (hence his suicide) yet he would not surrender. He had no regard for the German people.  The land of Germany took precedent over all,  not the individual.    He only cared about his idea of what the Reich should be.  He blamed the German people for Germany's losses in WWII and cared not of the brutal onslaught that was to come from both fronts.  




Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on August 12, 2007, 12:57:29 PM
Had his generals been able to work with him in the first place, they would have had those compromises.

1945-2005 basically proved Hitler right regarding Eastern Europe, third world militancy, Russia, nuclear weapons, England/USA world domination and Germany's need to keep out foreigners.

Had Hitler won, we would not have grown up in nuclear terror of an insane Russian state.

So he's a mixed bag.

I don't know how anyone can be against nationalism. Destroy culture (multiculturalism) or keep culture (nationalism).

I also don't know how anyone can be against fascist environmentalism. People aren't going to do it on their own. Oppress them and have a livable planet, or don't oppress them and we all die together, equally.

I also don't know how anyone can be against eugenics. Stupid people cause problems, crime and perversion (most child molestors in USA have reduced IQ). Retarded people depress everyone, cost a lot of time and money, and ruin families. Better to put them all in the gas chambers.

I don't know how anyone can be against sending all Jews to Israel, and forcing a Palestine accord that sends Palestinians back to Jordan. Israel is where Jews belong. The rest of the world has different values and doesn't mix with Jews well, as history shows us. Why don't we just learn and move on?

Protector here doesn't understand the historical context in which he speaks, and basically like all hippie musicians wants "freedom," but hasn't thought through the implications of that freedom for everyone. It's going to wreck the planet. Yes, I want freedom for some -- but not for all. They cannot handle it, and history proves it.

I don't know if the Nazis were all that unique. I think every quality government in history has acted along these lines: fascism, eugenics (http://www.anus.com/etc/misanthrope/), nationalism, environmentalism, pro-culture, anti-divisive foreign elements. It's just common sense. Protector may be against foreign sense, but he acknowledges he has no solutions for these problems, and they need solving.

The solutions I've found resemble Love and Nihilism: An Integralist Primer (http://www.anus.com/zine/philosophy/) and National Socialism (http://www.nazi.org/library/faq/#national_socialism). I don't buy into the post-war race hate, just like I wouldn't throw Jews in gas chambers. I do not see this as productive. Nor do I see having Jews in Germany as being productive.

Environmentally speaking, I think Pentti Linkola (http://www.anus.com/zine/db/linkola_pentti/) and Ted Kaczynski (http://www.anus.com/zine/db/unabomber/) were right, but I think we need to guide that with Nietzschean aesthetics (http://www.anus.com/zine/db/friedrich_nietzsche/friedrich_nietzsche-on_truth_and_lies_in_a_non-moral_sense/) as a way of transcending our narrow, moral, tangible, physical, linear, discrete logical systems.

Does this make me a blasphemer? To modern ideals, it does. Does it make me a pointless hater, like many neo-Nazis and all anti-racists seem to be? No, it makes me the opposite (http://www.anus.com/tribes/arn) of that: someone who acts deliberately and avoids the emotional tantrums that distinguish those people from their saner counterparts.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Namtar on August 15, 2007, 09:36:21 AM
Stupid that Impaled Nazarene turned into what they are now - stupid punkrock based music in which nationalism seems only funny and as another rebellion.

Talking about NSDAP and all similar stuff - altough I consider myself nationalist and I am pretty far from being leftist this thinks dont appeal to me very much. Most of that appears to me as another working class movement altough bit differently painted - and its actions often didnt differ from communist ones - aggressive attacks against Finland, Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states... altough under the flag of international justice for all. Democracy, communism, or nazism are same mass madness, big controlled concerns, all of them standing for industrial growth. Nazi leaders were  a bit more aristocratic than leaders of these days who are only corrupted pussies, but hardly heroes of old days  In my country many nazis or skinheads are ok with being christians (what is a kind of good joke - when you see christianity as international Jewish sect).
I understand and respect other nations and their habits and heritage (some seem close to me, but some I completely despise - altough there mightbe someone not such useless in this despicable nation) still I dont see why shouldnt I prefer my language, landscape and people of my country altough not all or most of them.
Protector says he likes modern age - well but NSDAP, communism or democracy and all those shit that includes industrialism were all  invented  in last centuries so I am bit ashamed of listening to a  music of a man who loves age of plastic. Seems that all imagery of his band is, as almost every time today, just pretension or pointless fantasizing. Dream of elves, have a good time and then hooray! for eight hours in factory
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on August 15, 2007, 06:25:24 PM
Quote
Protector says he likes modern age - well but NSDAP, communism or democracy and all those shit that includes industrialism were all  invented  in last centuries so I am bit ashamed of listening to a  music of a man who loves age of plastic. Seems that all imagery of his band is, as almost every time today, just pretension or pointless fantasizing. Dream of elves, have a good time and then hooray! for eight hours in factory


The big problem of the NSDAP was that it was one of a kind, and it got it about half right. Positive: nationalism, anti-industrial-ownership (you're not correct on your assertion there, see Toland), pro-small business, pro-tradition. Negative: botched genocides, lost wars, administrative problems, corrupt people like Goering. This is common to any movement that's the first of its kind. The first airplanes could barely fly, first cars barely drive, first computer programs crashed constantly.

If anything, I'd say a Nazi problem was that they were NOT aristocratic but middle class, so lacked the patience and fineness of distinction in much of what they did. They needed another generation to perfect themselves, but the Russian threat wouldn't wait. Also WWI shaped the Nazis too much.

I guess I'm not pro-Nazi as much as anti-anti-Nazi. Anyone who thinks the big issue nowadays is beating back Nazis is a mental defective. Industrial society, modern society, the revenge of the masses... these are our problems. Not finding ways to ensure multiculturalism, always a destructive idea, gets spread further. I can see Protector's point, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that he's a whore for defending a modern time.


Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Namtar on August 16, 2007, 08:45:30 AM
Altough this might go bit out of theme- here are some opinions of mine what differences are between modern dictatorship and aristocratic feudal dictatorship (for those who like to call it this way) - in feudal times states were rather small and even they were often build from small autonomous parts therefore there was enough placde for people who an be considered ellite and also a more of competition - so this way bad leadership resulted in sooner collapse of reign. On contrary in modern times states tend to be larger (and much larger) and hardly centralized, in this case rather small ellite is created and this people are facing rather a large opposition of people enough suitable (or when we are talking about modern times lets say as much suitable as the first ones) to take lead - result is corruption of those people or annihilation. (Same goes for many people in modern era many are suitable for doing something but in large system much smaller number, thus unneeded and dissatisfying workplace are created to calm these people down). Since these ellite doesnt need to compete and is much harder to overthtrow, sooner or later it is much likely to degrade. After fall of unable ellite there are no people able to take lead in closer areas (since there is no count or duke of same nationality leaving in nearby castle)   because all people were only taught to follow. This is my main point not only against large dictator led states but against all large states. Capitalism seems to corrupt people most successively of all regimes.
One historical example - hopefully you wont see it as redundant - at the end of third century competent emperor, Diocletian, took lead in Roman Empire. He gave strict orders and many people were bound to their jobs or positions in political structures. This worked for a while, until the imperial bloodline produced good leaders- after that ended there was none to take leadership - people were used how to follow, how to worship emperor but not how to act. I think this might be possible end if now europe is taken by dictatorship - people are enough degenerate now to follow, to coward to stand against incompetent leader, dictatorship will work for a while but whast end will come then?  
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: esoteric on August 16, 2007, 03:23:38 PM
Quote
I also don't know how anyone can be against eugenics. Stupid people cause problems, crime and perversion (most child molestors in USA have reduced IQ). Retarded people depress everyone, cost a lot of time and money, and ruin families. Better to put them all in the gas chambers.


Eugenics wouldn't work. Believing it will eliminate our problems like that is similar to a belief in god - without scientific basis.

Quote
Eugenic sterilization of affected individuals would be ineffective in eliminating the targeted recessive allele from a population (Paul, 1998). In Hardy-Weinberg terms, within a large, closed, randomly-mating population, if “p” is the frequency of dominant allele “A” and “q” is the frequency of recessive allele “a,” then one expects p2 AA (homozygous normal) individuals, 2pq Aa (heterozygous normal carrier) individuals, and q2 aa (homozygous affected) individuals. For instance, if the frequency of “A” is 0.70 and of “a” is 0.30 in a population of adults, among their children the expected frequency of AA is 0.49, of Aa is 0.42, and of aa is 0.09. With eugenic sterilization of affected individuals, the heterozygotes (Aa) are a relatively large percent of the population compared to the homozygous recessives (aa) when q is low. Since heterozygotes would not be sterilized or isolated because they are asymptomatic, even though they still carry the disfavored allele, over time the effectiveness of eugenic sterilization diminishes.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1662%2F0002-7685(2005)067%5B0487%3AAEDTEO%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1#I0002-7685-67-8-487-PAUL2
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: FIAT on August 16, 2007, 04:16:50 PM
Quote

Eugenics wouldn't work. Believing it will eliminate our problems like that is similar to a belief in god - without scientific basis.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1662%2F0002-7685(2005)067%5B0487%3AAEDTEO%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1#I0002-7685-67-8-487-PAUL2


Moderns will tell you life consists of problems to be solved, which then go away.  Perennial wisdom, however, says that life is a process--an ongoing series of cycles which, stepwise, build upon one another. Eugenics, or natural selection--the two are virtually synonymous--understood as but a small part of a greater design, is one such step.

Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, you must know, as a student of science, is a hypothetical model which is almost never seen in a natural environment. Even among humans, as domesticated as we are, mating is never random; such thus makes genetic drift possible.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Namtar on August 17, 2007, 12:15:59 AM
Quote

Eugenics wouldn't work. Believing it will eliminate our problems like that is similar to a belief in god - without scientific basis.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1662%2F0002-7685(2005)067%5B0487%3AAEDTEO%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1#I0002-7685-67-8-487-PAUL2


I dont know if I understood it perfectly but it seems you are defending lives of criminals, degenerates and breathwasters. If the anihilation of notorius criminals, addicts and at least people who have under 90 IQ will bring us improvement only for next 20 years it is worth it.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: esoteric on August 17, 2007, 07:17:40 PM
Quote

I dont know if I understood it perfectly but it seems you are defending lives of criminals, degenerates and breathwasters. If the anihilation of notorius criminals, addicts and at least people who have under 90 IQ will bring us improvement only for next 20 years it is worth it.


Eugenics has never been about killing people to directly improve a population. Further, you are confusing phenotype with genotype. An offspring is not the sum of the visible traits (including IQ, predisposition to criminal activities and drugs) of the parents. Not to mention the influence of environmental factors.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: death metal black metal on August 17, 2007, 09:42:45 PM
Quote
Eugenics wouldn't work.


I don't know much about human genetics, but I'm no slouch when it comes to plant genetics. In fact, in certain areas, I'm something of an expert. I think I don't even know what "eugenics" is, at least for the purposes of this thread.

I can breed traits upward with only a handful of generations, and can reduce the frequency of other traits to a rarity with probably twice that number of generations.

That might not be eugenics, but natural selection and controlled breeding work in plants and, from what I can see, in animals and humans. Any evidence to the contrary is welcome, but I believe what I've done with my own two hands more than abstraction from academia -- and my academic background is not slouchy.

I think a lot of people come on here with a little knowledge, and hope it makes them experts. Let me tell you something: you're doing yourself a disservice. Keep an open mind instead. Whatever you're afraid of is probably not as bad as you think it is.

In the meantime, I'd like to remind all of you to be polite to our guests on this forum, and state that I am currently enjoying the music of Summoning. I've switched from Oath Bound back to Dol Guldur. It has a wider range of melodies.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on August 18, 2007, 01:39:34 AM
Quote

Hitler threw away the lives of thousands on the battlefield.  He ignored his generals requests for a surrender and/or withdrawal during battles that they could no longer win.  Generals in Stalingrad were told to fight to the last man even though all hope was lost.  Hitler would not allow a surrender!  Also, Hitler took the easy way out and shot himself without allowing for a German surrender toward the end of the war.  He knew the Russians would soon advance into Germany and wreak malicious havoc on German citizens and there was no way out (hence his suicide) yet he would not surrender. He had no regard for the German people.  The land of Germany took precedent over all,  not the individual.    He only cared about his idea of what the Reich should be.  He blamed the German people for Germany's losses in WWII and cared not of the brutal onslaught that was to come from both fronts.  


Hitler was a Nazi but not the definition of it, he was a very mentally unbalanced person and those events and actions you cite have nothing to do with Nazism and only the man.  
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on August 18, 2007, 07:12:21 AM
Quote
Hitler was a Nazi but not the definition of it, he was a very mentally unbalanced person and those events and actions you cite have nothing to do with Nazism and only the man.  


The modern way to argue with anyone's ideas is to insult them as a person. They say the same things about George W. Bush, and they said the same things about William J. Clinton. It's mental crap.

You're right about National Socialism, however. It was a fusion that Hitler helped develop, but it was well underway before him, and without others might have never come to fruition. It was a resurrection of the ancient German way of society in a modern form, and Hitler gave it image and tied it together, but didn't invent any of this.

Then again, nothing is invented, really. It all happened with the Greeks and we're just walking through variations on those themes.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Ruben on August 18, 2007, 02:18:42 PM
Quote

Hitler was a Nazi but not the definition of it, he was a very mentally unbalanced person and those events and actions you cite have nothing to do with Nazism and only the man.  


True; I was only commenting on one Nazi in particular and maybe he was not the best representative of Nazism, but then who was?   The  answer to that question will always be subjective and open for debate.  I think it is safe to say that many high ranking Nazis were unbalanced.  I also think many were merely opportunists with a high national and racist fervor.  Something to think about:  How true to the Nazi cause could Hitler and his cronies have been to allow foreigners (including thousands of Slavs) into the SS?  Quite a compromise for such a passionate ideology.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on August 18, 2007, 08:36:21 PM
Quote

but then who was


Reinhard Heydrich, the definition of Nazi. Hitler even considered him as a possible successor. I actually think that the hierarchy of Nazis were sane people. When the war was near an end Hitler was being rudely awoken from his dream world, and his unbalanced mind made everything worse. At this point all of the Nazi's thought him mad. Even Goebbels his most loyal followers faith was shaken. All find his actions to be madness and all wish the war to end, which are sane ideas, hence sane men making them.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on August 25, 2007, 10:47:11 AM
Just for context:

"Escape capitalism or democracy, believe in the need for strong leadership, and recognize that our societies go nowhere unless united by a single cultural value: that is National Socialism" - a poster on Stormfront

The NSDAP: What They Believed (http://www.nazi.org/library/nsdap)

What is National Socialism? (http://www.nazi.org/library/faq/#national_socialism)

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 02, 2007, 02:54:20 AM
Quote

Had Hitler won, we would not have grown up in nuclear terror of an insane Russian state.


Do you realise how insanely difficult it would have been to win WW2 for Hitler? The very logistics and distances involved in getting an army on American soil make the venture almost impossible. They couldn't even cross 30 miles of water to invade England (a far weaker and outclassed adversary). And against England they could actually use airbases from Europe, something impossible to achieve when invading America.

My point is, had the Nazis won convincingly in Europe and taken over Britain, the war could/would have dragged out for decades and would have involved an escalating nuclear war between Hitlers European empire (an insane state) and the USA. Meanwhile the Japanese are able to do nothing but prove to be an annoyance on the other side of the pacific. The end of the war is ambiguous but it's still very much possible it could just be another Cold War but with Nazis not Soviets, but with everyone having a far more healthy dose of radiation in their blood and every large town already ravaged by a bomb drop.

I don't understand how you continue to seek to appauld the NSDAP wherever you can. I think you have a condition for it. By the last couple years of the war the only thing sane institution in Germany was the army, controlled by the political idiots in Berlin.

If you really want to support the underdog, try supporting the Germans in WW1 instead.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on September 02, 2007, 03:40:31 AM
Quote
Do you realise how insanely difficult it would have been to win WW2 for Hitler?


I think you misunderstand, because you haven't paid attention to history. Hitler's goals did not include the USA. The USA did not enter the war until Japan attacked, and only then declared war on Germany.

In short, you're trying to be unique like a hipster and failing.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Apocalyptic Raves on September 02, 2007, 06:41:31 AM
I don't think it was a bad idea to stand up and say "fuck you" to NSBMers, I wouldn't want my music to be used for any political agendas either. The fact that Summoning aren't necessarily an NSBM band puzzles me as to why anyone would use their music for a nazi video. I don't think he went about it very well though, he said a lot of poorly informed things that, frankly, I was surprised to hear from somebody in a black metal band of their caliber. For example, since when was Stalin a fascist?

I don't know what the situation in Europe is, but most people that show up to concerts around here that listen to NSBM aren't true nationalists. They're racists, and hillbillies to boot. So for that I have something of a prejudice against it, I think they're a squee-bit naive in some of their beliefs. A little bit oversimplified to ever work. "If only we could just get them damn african-americans to quit terkin' our jerbs", and similar rhetoric.

I'm not defending multiculturalism, but I am suggesting that unless the music is good, NSBM shouldn't be supported as a whole. Nationalism's cool, and so is taking pride in your heritage, but when your music revolves more around ignorant, sophomoric, and naive prejudice than it does metal, you suck.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 02, 2007, 08:47:48 AM
Quote

I think you misunderstand, because you haven't paid attention to history. Hitler's goals did not include the USA. The USA did not enter the war until Japan attacked, and only then declared war on Germany.

In short, you're trying to be unique like a hipster and failing.


"you haven't paid attention to history"..."[the USA] declared war on Germany."

Your attention to and understanding of history seems watertight however.

After Hitler declared war on the USA, his goals included the USA. Had circumstances been prevalent so as to avoid this declaration of war, how long do you think it would have taken the USA's increasingly non-isolationist government to declare war for some reason (money, alliances, oil, disgust as the holocaust comes to light etc etc) anyway?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on September 02, 2007, 10:17:19 AM
Quote

"you haven't paid attention to history"..."[the USA] declared war on Germany."

Your attention to and understanding of history seems watertight however.

After Hitler declared war on the USA, his goals included the USA. Had circumstances been prevalent so as to avoid this declaration of war, how long do you think it would have taken the USA's increasingly non-isolationist government to declare war for some reason (money, alliances, oil, disgust as the holocaust comes to light etc etc) anyway?



Quote
Earlier in 1941, the Nazis learned of the U.S. military's contingency planning to get troops in Continental Europe by 1943; this was Rainbow Five, made public by sources unsympathetic to Roosevelt's New Deal, and published by the Chicago Tribune. Hitler decided war with the United States was unavoidable, and the Pearl Harbor attack, the publication of Rainbow Five, and Roosevelt's post-Pearl Harbor address, which focused on European affairs as well as the situation with Japan, probably contributed to the declaration.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/gerdec41.htm

The USA provoked the Japanese attack, then declared war on Japan and by extension Germany even if not formally, and only after that was Hitler interested.

His goals did not include the USA as noted.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 02, 2007, 11:42:16 AM
Quote


His goals did not include the USA as noted.


His goals before the war and even at the start didn't include Britain either, but when we declared war after his invasion of Poland, there wasn't much he could do about it (and he liked it anyway, peace-mongering with Britain was condemned by Hitler). It doesn't matter whether Hitler wanted war with America or not for it to happen.

So what you're saying is, because at the start of the war Hitler didn't have implicit and stated desires to destroy the USA, he would have won World War Two even though the two continents would regularly be exchanging nuclear blasts (NUCLEAR blasts) and slaughtering each others troops over a period of decades? This isn't preferable to a fucking cold war. "But we'd have no black people!" I hear you say? Think again. How long until either both sides start using massive amounts of troops from other continents, or until both sides are exhausted and give way to a massed third party invasion?

Please, stop reading Stormfront. It's an ugly, grotesque place to be.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on September 03, 2007, 03:04:38 AM
Quote
His goals before the war and even at the start didn't include Britain either


Exactly. His goal was not a cold war. He did not view the USA or Britain as enemies until they made themselves his enemy, where Russia (as history proved) was everyone's enemy.

Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on September 04, 2007, 06:11:46 PM
The Germans were the first to create the atomic bomb, but by the time it could be made into a weapon the war was over, they had already done successful tests with the nuclear devices. The only reason America obtained the bomb is by hiring huge amounts of the German scientists who worked on such projects.

Lets say that operation Barbarossa  was a success, with Moscow gone Russia is now a snake with no head and falls apart, this is the reason why the invasion of Russia was aiming for Moscow. With this operation a success he only has to fight small bands of troops to the east and does not enter a two font war. If this happened the resources could be put to the defense of the western front, this would slow down the allies (if not drive them out of the continent) long enough for the bombs to be devolved and turned into weapons. The states without a nuclear weapon cannot fight off all of Europe with nuclear weapons. Then Germany wins. Not had to imagine since operation Barbarossa was so incredible close to succeeding.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 05, 2007, 07:44:59 AM
M-T-C, you're knowledge of the war isn't quite perfect.

If the Nazi's had captured Moscow, it would have made little difference. Stalin, his generals and his government had plans to move out before the Nazi's could capture or kill them. The war would have been picked up from elsewhere. The most use the capture of Moscow would have been would have been to make a defensive line so they could create airfields close enough to bomb Russias industrial heartland in the Ural mountains. It would also have had a major negative moral effect on the Russian soldiers (and a major boost for Germany).

By the time Barbarossa (and its follow up operation Typhoon to try and cripple Russia by capturing Moscow once again) the allies still were not in mainland Europe so they wouldn't need to be thrown back out (and this wouldn't slow down their atomic programme anyway).

Hitlers best strategy would have been to capture Stalingrad and set up a defensive line on the River Volga. With this secure he could sweep south unhindered and capture Russias vast oil supplies in the Caucasus region. Not only did Germany desperately need a safe and plentiful supply of oil, but this would cripple Russia and also allow Germany to swoop south and west into Egypt to capture the Suez Canal from the British (basically Britains oil pipeline).

Even if Hitler was succesful in Russia, the war would degenerate into a stalemate with the USA (perhaps an invasion of Britain could be made successfully, perhaps not), possibly turning into nuclear war (fear of atomic power wasn't so strong back then). This would be a shame, seeing as the USA and Europe are pretty much brothers.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: born for banning on September 05, 2007, 04:34:02 PM
Quote
Even if Hitler was succesful in Russia, the war would degenerate into a stalemate with the USA (perhaps an invasion of Britain could be made successfully, perhaps not), possibly turning into nuclear war (fear of atomic power wasn't so strong back then). This would be a shame, seeing as the USA and Europe are pretty much brothers.


I agree here, and want to mention that both WWI and WWII were tragedies for this very reason.

A Hitler victory in Europe, without the Japanese running off and attacking the USA, could equally have resulted in a standoff (like the first days of WWI) until a power change in either place would bring people closer.

In the meantime, the Cold War and its soon sequel would have been avoided, as would have the reckless exportation of technology that has empowered a human population rise and consequent environmental disaster.

Any way you slice it, Hitler was right -- with flaws. Some were military (failing in Russia, taking on too much) and some were in my view organizational. Whatever happened to the Jews, it wasn't good or necessary. I don't see the value in gassing homosexuals. They should have done with those, as was done with the negroes, the obvious and exported them to Africa.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: neoclassical on September 06, 2007, 03:05:15 AM
Brothers! Where did you get that idea from?

Not at all were they brothers. Maybe today, but that is sad. They surely were not during the authoritarian period in Europe. America was anti-culture to Europe, much as Russia.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 06, 2007, 05:30:50 AM
Quote



Whatever happened to the Jews, it wasn't good or necessary. I don't see the value in gassing homosexuals. They should have done with those, as was done with the negroes, the obvious and exported them to Africa.



The way I like to think of it is that Hitler should have given the Jews a solution, not a final solution. Had he positively encouraged Jews in Germany to fight with their countrymen with the promised reward of an autonomous Jewish state in a conquered Nazi territory (where Israel stands today, or somewhere in Russia/Asia), who knows how far he could have got? Likewise, he could have used the slavs in much the same way, for the Polish and the Russians are hardly the best of friends.

But if Hitler would have been able to think like this, he wouldn't have been the disgusting creature he sometimes could be.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on September 06, 2007, 05:48:20 AM
But so much of Hitlers popularity and control over the German people was through the hatred and contempt of people like the Jew's. Without scapegoating them the way he did he might never have obtained power or held such a fanatical fan base, but then again maybe not. Impossible to tell with these things.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 06, 2007, 08:40:12 AM
At the time of the end of the 1920's there was no more than the usual tinge of anti-semitism throughout Europe that has existed since they arrived here (most likely less than the usual for many Jews served for the German army in WW1). He definately riled it up from places where it hadn't existed before. I believe he could have got into power without anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Ruben on September 06, 2007, 01:19:31 PM
Quote
At the time of the end of the 1920's there was no more than the usual tinge of anti-semitism throughout Europe that has existed since they arrived here (most likely less than the usual for many Jews served for the German army in WW1). He definately riled it up from places where it hadn't existed before. I believe he could have got into power without anti-semitism.


I agree.

I think the more potent target was the resentment that the German People had towards the way WWI had ended.  People were still smarting over the loss of the war, the financial repercussions, and the feeling of betrayal by the Weimar Government.  Hitler wanted to restore Germany to the powerful empire it once was, which included taking back Germanic Territory that they lost in the Versailles Treaty.  That is a bandwagon any German would jump on, especially during a time when it took 2 billion some odd Deutschmarks to equal one American Dollar (someone correct me if it was more).  
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on September 07, 2007, 09:50:10 PM
But to do this they needed an explanation of why things went wrong without involving themselves in anyway. Gypsies and Jews were among the easiest to place these blames.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 08, 2007, 03:29:29 AM
Or instead of ethnic minorities, the nations that defeated and humiliated them in the World War and anyone not pulling their weight for the country?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on September 09, 2007, 04:56:51 AM
Quote
Or instead of ethnic minorities, the nations that defeated and humiliated them in the World War and anyone not pulling their weight for the country?


1.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb5.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/map.jpg

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/lugen0.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/kriegsziel.htm

2.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/daf.jpg

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/sk02.htm
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: KIRK JOHNSON on September 09, 2007, 05:55:45 AM
4/25 NEVAR 4GET
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on September 09, 2007, 10:18:55 AM
Quote

1.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb5.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/map.jpg

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/lugen0.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/kriegsziel.htm

2.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/daf.jpg

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/sk02.htm



I know they already did you mincer. You really think after the schooling I've given you all that you could pick me up on a fact like this?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: oscar the cat on September 09, 2007, 05:54:50 PM
Quote
I know they already did you mincer. You really think after the schooling I've given you all that you could pick me up on a fact like this?


I just did pick you up on a fact like that.

But this isn't about you and me, it's about what's real and what's not.

Back to the discussion.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: maeve.binchy on September 02, 2009, 04:23:20 PM
While I agree with the sentiments of this writing, I have to point out bad logic because it's still nonsense.

Quote
Metal music has historically been heavily influenced by black music. First there was blues music done mainly by black people, then rock developed from blues, and finally metal developed from rock music. Metal has no roots in any of the old Germanic tribes at all. Any metal fan thinking that his music is an Aryan one is simply wrong, and singing German does not make this music traditional white music. Nazis in the third reich called music like blues (as well as jazz) "African-American music" and therefore would also not have liked metal music either.

This is well-intentioned nonsense. The blues form came from English sailing songs, the pentatonic scale with blue note was in use through Asia and the Middle East and its offspring, the Celtic Iberians who carried the knowledge of their Phoenician forebears. It's no more a black form than an Asian form. It also takes advantage of western tuning and music theory, so to call it alien music is just as racist as to claim blacks invented nothing.

Quote
The bass drum used in metal music derived from the bass drum used in jazz, which is originally the Turkish bass drum "davul". Cymbals of any kind have Chinese roots, also with Turkish influences. The same goes for tom toms.

Again, this is well-intentioned but not correct. Each continent invented the drum, and the bass drum was used in waltz and polka music long before jazz.

Quote
- The oboe derived from the Arabic "mizmar" (or "zurna" in turkish), which later became a shalm and finally the oboe as we know it.
   
- The lute is nothing other than the Arabic "oud". Not even the shape has changed.

- The guitar is Spanish as well as Mauritanian (that's probably why "Varg Vikernes" once called them "African-American instruments" and therefore stopped playing guitars in "Burzum").

- The violin derived from the Persian instrument "rebab". It is well known that Persians are "Aryans" as well, but anyway they don't belong to the old Germanic tribes.

- The complete percussion section in European orchestra music comes from the Turkish military music of the Ottoman empire called "Janissary" music.

It is a shame this person never looked past the origins of these instruments. They have been heavily modified over the years, and many come from indigenous rather than foreign forms. Nothing is mysterious about developing stringed instruments. The guitar and banjo in particular are entirely different instruments than their original forms.

Quote
All those Varg Vikernes-admirers thinking that a nation can only survive if it is clean and pure should take a short look at the Ottoman empire that was an extremely multi-cultural nation and lasted 624 years - that's 52 times longer than The Third Reich

Oh, he shouldn't venture into history he doesn't understand -- the Ottoman empire was a political convenience that created vast destruction during its time and then collapsed inward.

Quote
If you think you are an individualist or rebel because you like fascism then you are wrong. There is no space for individualism in fascist regimes. In fascism conformity and obedience are the most important value. This goes for Nazi Germany as well as the Stalin-Soviet Union. Fascism means extreme conformity and following orders and leaders. You have to be a working component in the huge fascist system - thinking for yourself will disturb this system.

And when everyone doesn't conform together, you have dysfunction like we have now. Look at our malls: everyone is different, yet they're doing the same things. He's on another bad argument here.

Quote
Another problem I notice often is that people can not decide between fascism, racism and nationalism. Those are three different things that don't necessarily have to be connected. Fascism means the maximum of conformity and control of its people, racism means a simplified way to understand people personality by just considering their race, and nationalism means to be free from other national influences. You can be a non-racist nationalist for example. Gandhi was something like that - he wanted to keep India free from English reign but was surely not a racist. On the other hand the Nazis were not strict nationalists. They still supported colonies for Germany, they always wanted to increase their German "master race" and take space from other countries for that etc. To be true nationalists they should have cared about their historically ground, their historically culture and not mess around in countries they didn't belong to.

This is why people don't take metalheads seriously. Fascism has a strong nationalistic component, and no nationalist society is so stupid as not to borrow intelligent inventions wherever they find them. Didn't he berate them earlier for being too symbol-conscious? The ultimate freedom from symbol-consciousness is to take good ideas, improve them, and integrate them into your own. He seems like a closet xenophobe here.

Quote
I prefer to be proud about things i did or am responsible for, but I never ever could feel pride for things I could not even decide upon.

Why not be proud of both? Are you not proud of humanity for its accomplishments?

Quote
I choose friends because of their personality, not because of their ethnicity.

When was politics about choosing friends? It's about choosing a sensible political plan.

Quote
If you like the old Germanic tribes, their traditions and their runes etc., that's fine. The ancient culture of your own nation is probably the most obvious one to deal with if you are interested in ancient cultures; I also have a Germanic drinking-horn hanging on my wall btw. But it is a huge mistake to think that you can accent those likings by supporting the Nazi regime. Apart from some runes on some uniforms they did not bring back any Germanic symbols or traditions. On the contrary they even supported the greatest historical enemies of the Germanic tribes, the ancient Roman empires. Here's some info proving this statement: Hitler decided to name his new empire the "Third Reich" because he considered the so called "Holy Roman Empire Of German Nation" (that lasted from the medieval times till 1806) as the first one, and the "German Empire" (from 1871 to 1918) as the second one. He even kept the Catholic and Protestant Religion as the main religion in Germany and did not really bring back the old gods like Odin etc. During the Third Reich they had a good relation to the Church, and the Pope and other important people from the Church even blessed the weapons of the German army. I am an atheist so I believe neither in Odin, God nor any other kind of higher force. I just wanted to show that Nazis did not care about old historic Germanic traditions very much, and saw the Christianisation of the German tribe as the real rise of the German empire.

Dear me, someone didn't pay much attention in high school history!

Quote
19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

...

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

And he could have seen that so easily.

Quote
I support total freedom in speech and thought, and even a Nazi should be free to say whatever he thinks. For me forbidding special thoughts or opinions does not fit into a democratic society.

But dear heart, Nazis do not want a democratic society, nor do we have any proof democratic societies are all that great. Plato and Aristotle, for example, saw them as stages of decay.

Quote
Original black metal has no national socialistic elements, so you are not more "true" or whatever if you follow national socialistic tendencies. For example Burzum makes good music which influenced us a lot at the beginning of Summoning, but this was never a reason for us to follow his ideologies because we always preferred to think for ourselves.

He makes a mistake here, which is to assume that people who follow Nazi ideologies are not thinking for themselves. There's no proof of that.

Original black metal? He must not mean Mayhem, Burzum, Immortal, Emperor, Gorgoroth, Enslaved and Darkthrone, all of whom were fiercely nationalistic and supported natural selection. They may not be Nazis, but they are certainly not anti-Nazi in their beliefs.

Quote
There is nothing wrong if you only love your own culture and don't like other ones; nobody can force anybody to like anything, but what I want to add is that you cannot escape foreign influences even if you listen to pure European music. Of course European culture found its own way during the centuries and now doesn't have much to do with its outside influences, but it cannot be denied that without those influences, it would not exist.

Why does purity of population have to entail a closed mind to good ideas from outside that population? This makes no sense.

Quote
For example Summoning definitely does not sound like blues, nor do we have any other obvious foreign influences, but like any other kind of music derived from metal it would not exist without it. That might be self-evident for some but not for narrow-minded Nazis who want to remove anything they thought is not pure German styled - even if there is the slightest non-German influence in it (like the above mentioned fracture letters). I personally don't like hip hop at all for example, but as it is so easy to turn off a radio or switch off a tv show i have no problems with it. I like being free to decide what I have to do, to like etc. and don't want any dictator deciding for me what i have to do, like etc.

He seems to forget that jazz was legal but discouraged during the Third Reich years in Germany.

While I am an avowed supporter of diversity, and a foe of all totalitarian systems, this writing is a shambles of repeated internet memes, half truths, historical ignorance and bad arguments. It does nothing except confirm the stereotype that metalheads drop out before the second year of high school.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: -H418ov21.C on September 03, 2009, 04:30:16 AM
this writing is a shambles of repeated internet memes, half truths, historical ignorance and bad arguments. It does nothing except confirm the stereotype that metalheads drop out before the second year of high school.

No, in this case it rather confirms that he repeats very well what is taught in European public schools and "under-contract-with-the-state" private schools since the last decades (and the movement is accelerating, courses are getting worse and worse over the years).

Today in class it's all about how great other cultures than your own are, and how ridiculous, ugly, pretentious and nasty your own culture and heritage is. Most real history is dropped out in favor of pseudo-humanistic ramblings about how bad the whole Middle-Ages, Christianity, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Monarchy, the Colonization and Nationalisms were altogether ; teachers force down your throat that you are guilty of having done bad things to just about every other people on Earth and that you have to repay for that today under the form of massive Third-World immigration in your country ; and in place of historical continuity with a chronological approach, you get dozens of exploded "historical" fragments that are not presented in any logical fashion, have nothing in common with each other and are full of lies and highly partial judgments (Mediterranean muslim pirates were great and occupied Spain is the ultimate model to follow, while cathedrals are shit and the highly-civilized France doesn't count for anything). To put it short, we live in a Masonic world that hates everything which is not highly cosmopolitan and rootless, and is waging a war against all traditions ; first promoting hedonism and "light" versions of foreign pseudo-traditions before your own heritage to destroy yours, and later destroying the foreign traditions too so that you are left with nothing but Communism, Capitalism, Lodges and the Kabbalah.

Protector of Summoning just shows that while his music kind of escaped this, he as an individual couldn't manage to.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Gregorian Watcher on September 07, 2009, 11:08:57 PM
I think Richard Lederer (Protector) is being a little too protective and self-defensive over what seems to be the tampering of a run-of-the-mill neo-Nazi who makes fake videos for YouTube (or JewTube as they would call it).

He goes far too deep in redundancy of his defense against fascism and all this other crap than necessary, which only reveals how he hasn't read enough history in general (let alone the roots of different music and of metal in general) and that he's just another parroting "anti-racist/race traitor" sap with modern-day politically correct thought patterns...and if that's NOT true...then I agree that he could've simply replied that Summoning is a-political and that whomever made a "Windows Movie Maker Music Video" of Nazi propaganda footage with a Summoning song dubbed over it is an imbecile and should be banned from YouTube - just shut up and leave the band alone.

Remember the rule of Occam Razor:  the best explanation is probably the simplest one.  In this case:  Some idiot white supremacist who also likes some black metal decided out of boredom to make a "music video" of the Third Reich with Summoning as its soundtrack - disrespecting the integrity of the band/artist.  End of story...
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: scourge on June 14, 2010, 07:09:46 PM
Darken also distances himself from the labels fascist, NSBM, and so forth.

Quote
Graveland is a pagan metal and black metal band from Wroclaw, Poland which was formed in 1992 by Rob Darken (Robert Fudali). Darken, who started Graveland as a solo project, was inspired by early black metal such as Bathory and Burzum’s early works; but starting with “Thousand Swords”, the band took on a powerful folk influence. As a result, later Graveland has sometimes been described as Viking metal or Pagan metal.

http://www.last.fm/music/Graveland

It's just some of the fans politicizing the musician. (http://www.last.fm/group/Black+Metal+against+Antifa) Maybe they're unaware that it takes a world superpower with an army, not a handful of musicians, to implement the fascist ideal.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Nightspirit on June 15, 2010, 10:04:09 PM
Taking the egalitarian standpoint that Summoning has done only shows a fear of the liberal media and they're power to influence record sales. Nihilistically approaching a situation like the holocaust will yield a common occurence. Since when did this shit not happen in Armenia? I also suppose that the blameless Hebrews didn't ruthlessly slaughter the Canaanites either? There's just scriptural accounts of these happenings that's ritualized in three sub-religions.

I was going to explore Summoning, but I think a celebration of WASP's catalog in all of its vainglorius nonsense would make better sense in comparison.

In summation: Summoning is orcish for an ideological Pussyfart.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Conservationist on June 16, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I don't want to be the jerk who doubts Protector's honesty and goodwill, but:

* Summoning are still in a part of the world where admitting to liking anything Third Reichy can mean a prison sentence
* Bands who are known to be fascist have trouble selling their CDs, going on tour, or getting into mainstream publications
* Many of us have friends who are non-white, and we like these people and don't want to hurt their feelings
* Fascists and neo-Nazis have, quite honestly, not shown themselves to be astute or even admirable in the postwar period
* Liberal politics is binary: you're either assumed to be liberal, or you're a racist, and then you face all kinds of demonization

I'd probably do the same thing if I were Summoning: make some statement against fascism or neo-Nazism, and copy it from other sites like they seem to have done, making it incompetent enough to clue in others that it's there for Political Compliance and distrust of the neo-Nazi establishment, not some ideological hatred of all things the Nazis did. Everyone on earth agrees with most of what the Nazis did, but a lot of us have problems with (a) the Holocaust and (b) modern neo-Nazis, white nationalists and other hamsters.

Don't let it ruin your enjoyment of Summoning. However, once you've got Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul and Nightshade Forests, stop -- those are the good albums and everything else is repetition.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: istaros on June 17, 2010, 01:30:13 PM
^Or Protector really is that ideologically incoherent, while somehow being simultaneously blessed with musical near-genius. We don't need to make excuses in defense of his persona - unless we're personal friends of his, or he becomes some sort of political leader, "who he is" could not be less important.

Summoning is one of maybe three current musical acts who have made nothing but good albums, and each with their own sense of being. Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame is their lowest point, and the only one that might justifiably be called repetitive as it is little more than a maudlin distillation of every technique that preceded it - and even that is above par.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: nothingnowhere on June 18, 2010, 08:53:58 AM
^Or Protector really is that ideologically incoherent, while somehow being simultaneously blessed with musical near-genius. We don't need to make excuses in defense of his persona - unless we're personal friends of his, or he becomes some sort of political leader, "who he is" could not be less important.

Summoning is one of maybe three current musical acts who have made nothing but good albums, and each with their own sense of being. Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame is their lowest point, and the only one that might justifiably be called repetitive as it is little more than a maudlin distillation of every technique that preceded it - and even that is above par.

I think Let Mortal Heroes Sing Your Fame tops Stronghold. It does away with a lot of the cheese and plays in a simpler, but still imaginative and evocative style. Either way they are both solid albums, even if they aren't as great as their earlier works.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: istaros on June 18, 2010, 09:15:10 AM
I used to think Stronghold was their weakest, and that Let Mortal Heroes Sing your Fame topped both it and Oath Bound. Over time, I've come to see the error in my thinking. How is Stronghold less cheesy than the subsequent album? The latter is essentially just a D&D soundtrack, and it's the only album by Summoning that actually strikes me as cheesy at all.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: chpinhlf on June 21, 2010, 08:49:03 PM
I don't see the significance of the origin of the instruments. Depending on how you see it, dogs were either domesticated in East Asia or the Middle East. Should Nazis not own dogs because of this? The earliest bread has been traced to Egypt. Should Nazis not eat bread? The examples are endless.

Varg - "Comparing an instrument with a music culture is rather odd, I think. It is like comparing letters with languages. I can use Latin letters when I write Russian, and it will still be Russian, right? But if I write another language with Russian letters, it will not be Russian anyhow. See my point?.... So if I use an instrument made by a Jew to play European music the music will still be European. Or for that sake: these answers are not American, even though I use an American invention - the PC - when I answer the question. Right?"
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Conservationist on June 24, 2010, 09:31:21 AM
I don't see the significance of the origin of the instruments.

Especially since they use European tunings, scales and harmony.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Svmmoned on June 24, 2010, 01:58:35 PM
I don't see the significance of the origin of the instruments.

It would be hard to find more Indo-European instrument than a guitar.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Conservationist on January 03, 2012, 08:25:44 AM
Quote
What about Stalin? Even his inner circle was terrified.
 
Well, the brilliance of the Soviet regime was not just that you relied on few people, but that there were lots of replacements. In a tsarist system you have to rely only on aristocrats, but in a Soviet system everyone can be your supporter. This puts your core circle on notice that they are easily replaced. That, of course, made them horribly loyal. The Mob are very good at this.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/quick-study-alastair-smith-political-tyranny

From an article entitled "How to be a dictator"

The point being that perhaps fascism (and national socialism, the actual topic of this thread) are not as bad as people think.

When is a new Summoning album coming out? Or is it all Ice Ages now?
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: aquarius on January 03, 2012, 04:32:54 PM
Either would be awesome. It's about time now and a lot of bands are well overdue to release new material so it should be a great year.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: Conservationist on January 16, 2012, 11:18:04 AM
I think the timing is right for people to make music in the spirit (not the sound, not by the same members, not with the same imagery, necessarily) of the older bands. Summoning would fit right in.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: death metal black metal on January 12, 2013, 08:51:18 AM
Summoning getting ready to unleash new album:

http://www.deathmetal.org/news/summoning-old-mornings-dawn-release-date-set/
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: aquarius on January 30, 2013, 11:42:29 PM

19.01.2013

We have finished all vocals and choirs for the new album. This means that we slowly come to an end now. Until the end of the month we have to finalize the sound, the booklet and the two bonus songs. This time we also have an English speaker who contributed with some spoken words for two songs. At the end of this month give the master CD to napalm records and fix the release-date which probably will be in march or April.

...casually dons battle armour and prepares for march or April
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: freddc on January 01, 2015, 04:32:38 AM
I agree, simple reason.
Summoning belong to our ancient principles regarding race.
what's best on or for earth?
1 ultimate race or multiple ones?
it's alike what nurture way of life
Their music is not hitler.
Summoning have a great reputation,
like their music, copyright on the internet is serious work :o
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: grecocastro on January 17, 2015, 08:52:43 AM
Quote
i support total freedom in speech and thought, and even a nazi should be free to say whatever he thinks. for me forbidding special thoughts or opinons does not fit into a democratic society. forbidding opinions turns them to a taboo, what attracts most of the young metalheads very much. it makes them feel like real rebels to break those taboos. i want that those taboos never even appear.
Title: Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
Post by: death metal black metal on July 20, 2015, 04:56:26 AM
This was the issue that finally exploded into MetalGate. Bands were held hostage by crazy journalists and zombie fans who wanted to destroy them if they did not have the right political beliefs.

Now a much different world.