100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: Beethoven on October 18, 2007, 09:23:13 PM

Title: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Beethoven on October 18, 2007, 09:23:13 PM
I've been thinking lately about what it is that makes (good) metal superior to most music (i.e, rock, hip-hop). What I've come up with, with the help of discussion, listening, playing music and research on the ANUS site and forums, is that essentially, disregarding aesthetic, the difference between metal and rock, and likewise between good and bad music in general is a focus on melody. To create beautiful melodies is the foundation of quality music. I don't mean to oversimplify the musical process, as the instrumentation surrounding the melody is what brings it out, but this is different than having a set chord progression (i.e, I-IV-V) and forming whatever melody conveniently fits (i.e, pentatonic wankery).

This mentality (melody being number one) which I have recently discovered within myself explains why I like the music I do; artists such as: Emperor, Sacramentum, Stargazer, Morbid Angel, Metallica, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, and many, many others. What I've noticed is the elitist closed-mindedness of metalheads causes many quality works outside of the "pure" art forms of extreme metal and classical to be ignored or insulted. My goal with this thread is to attempt to distribute what I consider quality works in the Jazz genre upholding the ideals that I value in metal (i.e, melody, motivic/phrasal composition) and not the ideals that I am indifferent to (racial issues, BR\/74L1T113!! kvltness). I invite anyone to criticize or add to any of my thoughts and I wonder what other hessians think of quality jazz and what the essence of powerful music is.

Below I've included some examples of jazz the fits my bill. Creative, competent, and beautiful music. I admit I have a bias for music with organ/piano/harpsichord/keyboard (just not cheesy keyboard) as I teach and play piano as my life's goal and passion.


Dave Brubeck - Take Five
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZaEOXZubz0

Michel Camile - Crazy fucking Latin influenced jam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EcxC5AgnPU

Thelonius Monk - Epistrophy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2s6LZUdYaU

Herman Szobel - (not sure what song) no video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNWNad3xGW4
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: shadowmystic on October 18, 2007, 11:32:13 PM
I always thought it was composition that put metal above most modern music, Legion is a great album and I can't say I hear alot of melody there.  The focus on structure allows metal to progress and fully articulate an idea rather than just cycling and going nowhere like jazz and rock do.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Azaerl on October 19, 2007, 01:04:42 AM
I too could never understand how some metal heads could uphold the artistry of metal yet reject other genres that also hold artistic value just because it is a different form to what they like. Is Picasso's artwork any less art just because it differs in form and message from that of Leonardo's or Rubens'?

I am just beginning to explore the depth of Jazz music, to me it has much more scope and artistic merit than that the limited field of Death and/or Black Metal (but don't mistake me here, I still love them both). So Jazz has less structure than Classical or Black Metal, this does not mean it is any less "worthy" than those genres, it still contains a chord structure and an overall vision for the song. Music, that is, music without lyrics, is always a communication of abstract ideas. In other words, emotions, and I think Jazz reigns almost supreme (second only to the best Classical music) in this regard. This is because Jazz music is improvisational, and the sheer skill these musicians have in communicating those emotions through their instruments, to me, is amazing. Show me one Metal band that can improvise, let alone create music as beautiful as a decent Jazz musician can, on the spot.

As for Jazz that I enjoy, I am still finding my way through artists and styles, but so far I am listening to: Pat Metheny, his skill at guitar is sublime; Miles Davis, music so complex I am only just only beginning explore why it sounds so good; and Duke Ellington. All really big names, I still have to a lot to discover and learn about this genre so any guidance and suggestions would be appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: kontinual on October 19, 2007, 02:57:43 AM
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Is Picasso's artwork any less art just because it differs in form and message from that of Leonardo's or Rubens'?


If something differs in form and "message" (content), then clearly it can be differentiated and judged on the merits of the content.

It seems like we go over the same arguments ad nauseum re: Jazz on this forum - see this (http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/YaBB.cgi?board=metal_talk;action=display;num=1186332555) recent thread.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: kontinual on October 19, 2007, 03:05:55 AM
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My goal with this thread is to attempt to distribute what I consider quality works in the Jazz genre upholding the ideals that I value in metal (i.e, melody, motivic/phrasal composition) and not the ideals that I am indifferent to (racial issues, BR\/74L1T113!! kvltness).


So you are on a crusade.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 19, 2007, 03:58:48 AM
Metal, Jazz and Classical are my favorite genres of music because they show either a lot of musicianship or verve and vivacity, and sometimes both. I always thought the people of ANUS were forgetting jazz.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on October 19, 2007, 01:40:45 PM
Jazz Club:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Thamuz on October 19, 2007, 02:19:45 PM
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I've been thinking lately about what it is that makes (good) metal superior to most music (i.e, rock, hip-hop). What I've come up with, with the help of discussion, listening, playing music and research on the ANUS site and forums, is that essentially, disregarding aesthetic, the difference between metal and rock, and likewise between good and bad music in general is a focus on melody. To create beautiful melodies is the foundation of quality music. I don't mean to oversimplify the musical process, as the instrumentation surrounding the melody is what brings it out, but this is different than having a set chord progression (i.e, I-IV-V) and forming whatever melody conveniently fits (i.e, pentatonic wankery).

What about harmony?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 19, 2007, 06:52:26 PM
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Is Picasso's artwork any less art just because it differs in form and message from that of Leonardo's or Rubens'?


Everyone is talking.

They're all just using collections of words.

Some words mean something that is more true than other collections of words.

This is why we might say Hemingway is a better writer than Roth.

But it depends on who you are, how intelligent you are, how experienced you are, and how honest you are.

Jazz is randomness that pretends to be profound. The sooner you outgrow it, the sooner you are on a journey toward art.

What makes good art powerful is its poetic narrative, its sense of having something to say, its distance from the human karmic drama. Jazz, rock, blues, hip-hop, and punk are heading away from that direction.

Just like we hate moron metal here, we hate slovenly art forms that pretend to be profound, but are really designed to amuse the inexperienced.

I too once liked jazz. Then I learned to think like a philosopher. Now to me it is litter by the side of the freeway, a rusted car in the parking lot of an abandoned factory, the speech of a politician in wartime.

Save these words, because in five years they'll mean more than they do now. Unless you're a moron. In which case, die.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Vorax on October 19, 2007, 10:18:24 PM
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Metal, Jazz and Classical are my favorite genres of music because they show either a lot of musicianship or verve and vivacity, and sometimes both. I always thought the people of ANUS were forgetting jazz.


I agree completely.

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I too once liked jazz. Then I learned to think like a philosopher. Now to me it is litter by the side of the freeway, a rusted car in the parking lot of an abandoned factory, the speech of a politician in wartime. .



Jazz is momentary, but also communicative through imagination, and that differs it from disposable entertainment.

It's trascende lies on it's spontaneous ephemerality. You would have to live it as musician rather that thinking it like a philosopher.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Azaerl on October 20, 2007, 12:06:15 AM
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If something differs in form and "message" (content), then clearly it can be differentiated and judged on the merits of the content.


I should have clarified what I mean by form and message. Form is what shape the artwork takes itself, to use my example: say a guitar and a woman named Lisa and how these things are presented to the viewer. Message is what idea the artist is trying to communicate: Picasso (in his Cubism phase) accepted the fact that a canvas was 2D and instead tried to represent an object from many different view points by breaking it into it's most basic forms, cubes and the like, to make the viewer question how they viewed reality. Leonardo, on the other hand, wanted to create the illusion that the canvas was not there, that the viewer was simply looking through a window into another world, in the Mona Lisa he used this realism to represent the nuances of human emotion. I do agree with what you are saying though, but just because Jazz differs in both these elements, why must it be somehow considered inferior to Classical or Black Metal? Is it just because it is not "vengeance of chaos against the propagation of administrative and technological models for human existence, ideas which demand allegiance to rules and "morality," or the wisdom of mercy and social compromise as seen by Judeo-Christian technocratic society."?

Born_For_Banning, you seem to be missing that point too. Jazz is not trying to be philosophical, it is trying to be something different. If these musicians wanted to create philosophical music, they would have just written classical music. But Ill stop on this tangent now, as Vorago said it much better than I ever could.

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Jazz is randomness that pretends to be profound.

Jazz is far from randomness. It has complex, thought out chord structures that have a lot of theory behind them. If it truely was random as you say, then it would sound a mess. The soloist would have no idea what chord the rhythm section is playing and therefore be unable to harmonize with them. Even the "random" notes he is improvising are not just wherever his finger happens to land on a key or fret, they are thought through as so to give the best possible sound (as in theory, not just the aesthetic of the note) and to give voice to what he wants to express at that time. How is that random?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: kontinual on October 20, 2007, 03:57:52 AM
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I should have clarified what I mean by form and message. Form is what shape the artwork takes itself, to use my example: say a guitar and a woman named Lisa and how these things are presented to the viewer. Message is what idea the artist is trying to communicate: Picasso (in his Cubism phase) accepted the fact that a canvas was 2D and instead tried to represent an object from many different view points by breaking it into it's most basic forms, cubes and the like, to make the viewer question how they viewed reality. Leonardo, on the other hand, wanted to create the illusion that the canvas was not there, that the viewer was simply looking through a window into another world, in the Mona Lisa he used this realism to represent the nuances of human emotion. I do agree with what you are saying though, but just because Jazz differs in both these elements, why must it be somehow considered inferior to Classical or Black Metal? Is it just because it is not "vengeance of chaos against the propagation of administrative and technological models for human existence, ideas which demand allegiance to rules and "morality," or the wisdom of mercy and social compromise as seen by Judeo-Christian technocratic society."?

Born_For_Banning, you seem to be missing that point too. Jazz is not trying to be philosophical, it is trying to be something different. If these musicians wanted to create philosophical music, they would have just written classical music. But Ill stop on this tangent now, as Vorago said it much better than I ever could.


I think it was pretty clear what you meant by form and message, which you've restated here as if these basic terms weren't understood.

"Message is what idea the artist is trying to communicate"

What if what they are trying to communicate is irrelevant?  Pointless?  Self-referential?  Mundane?

All art doesn't get a free pass simply because it is "art."
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 20, 2007, 04:34:29 AM
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Born_For_Banning, you seem to be missing that point too. Jazz is not trying to be philosophical, it is trying to be something different. If these musicians wanted to create philosophical music, they would have just written classical music. But Ill stop on this tangent now, as Vorago said it much better than I ever could.


No, I'm not missing the point. I've played music for a number of years and know what I'm saying.

Jazz is randomness because without an agenda to the song, it becomes a task of playing along in key. Structured music is the opposite in that it doesn't restrain you to a key, but requires you to keep a narrative going. Jazz has no narrative.

Hipsters like jazz because underneath all the vaunted technicality and cool, it's basically very simple music. I've moved on. Maybe someday you will too. Until then, you're behaving like an idiot hipster.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: shadowmystic on October 20, 2007, 05:30:53 AM
I see no one bothered to respond to Vorago...it seems to me that where jazz fails is not in its expression, but in its lack of structure.  Jazz is a random sequence of emotions, and while these may be beatiful in themselves, the fact that they are part of a random sequence means they have no contextual meaning.  In metal emotions are put in context of a logical, structured narrative allowing them to contribute to a whole that is more than the sum of its parts.  Jazz has alot of cool 'parts' but no unifying whole which would allow it to fully articulate an idea.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 20, 2007, 07:21:03 AM

Keith Jarrett (http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/YaBB.cgi?board=mp3;action=display;num=1192897497)
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Vorax on October 20, 2007, 07:39:33 AM
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I see no one bothered to respond to Vorago...it seems to me that where jazz fails is not in its expression, but in its lack of structure.  Jazz is a random sequence of emotions, and while these may be beatiful in themselves, the fact that they are part of a random sequence means they have no contextual meaning.  In metal emotions are put in context of a logical, structured narrative allowing them to contribute to a whole that is more than the sum of its parts.  Jazz has alot of cool 'parts' but no unifying whole which would allow it to fully articulate an idea.


If you can't find the person (style) behind that sum of parts, you will never find the context. If there's no context, you can say then that Duke Ellington and John Coltrane sound exactly the same.

You can hear birdsongs in the violins of Vivaldi's Spring.

Can someone tell me a solid reason, why it couldn't be possible in jazz?

I found jazz cold once too, until I started to express with it my own momentary narrative.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 20, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
Jazz is the "art of improvisation", make music out of spontaneous emotions. It has much more to do with feelings than any other logically structure music, mainly classical. Still, jazz artists write their main melodies prior to performing. It's not just throwed at you like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ozt_3p_iLs

Some musicians have more talent in playing than composing. Take the "fusion" movement of the 70s for example. This often results in "musical masturbation".

musical masturbation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIbmkoxXm_4

not musical masturbation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX_mwDvcZ2I

a funny mix of both:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoJRlok3Ezk
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Beethoven on October 20, 2007, 09:30:43 AM
I see in the day I've left this topic people seem to have gotten their blood moving  ;)

Someone raised a good point here which was something to the effect of "Jazz is to be viewed from the eyes of the musician and metal from those of the philosopher". I think this is true, and Jazz approaches the communication of the idea differently, with development happening more on a vertical plane than horizontal. What I really don't understand is how Jazz is any more "random" than metal, other than the improvisational nature of it (which would not be called random by someone who can do it, but stuck-up metal semi-musicians who couldn't swing if their life depended on it hate the idea).
I challenge anyone who is dismissing Jazz to listen to some (real) Jazz, not the 95% commercial dog shit in the genre (like metal) but the few innovators. I particularly like the Dave Brubeck quartet (Time Out being the best album) and it is a great example of non-"random"-ness.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Thamuz on October 20, 2007, 01:56:38 PM
What are these ideas that Jazz expresses?

Examples?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 20, 2007, 03:07:28 PM
Spontaneousness, simply living the moment. Most of jazz philosophy is similar if not the identical to the beatnick philosophy. If you read some Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac, especially "On The Road", you might catch some of the ideas expressed in jazz music.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: shadowmystic on October 20, 2007, 03:38:19 PM
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If you can't find the person (style) behind that sum of parts, you will never find the context. If there's no context, you can say then that Duke Ellington and John Coltrane sound exactly the same.

You can hear birdsongs in the violins of Vivaldi's Spring.

Can someone tell me a solid reason, why it couldn't be possible in jazz?

I found jazz cold once too, until I started to express with it my own momentary narrative.


That is starting to sound alot like individualism to me, which is what we're trying to avoid here.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Vorax on October 20, 2007, 09:01:49 PM
Beethoven is the individual behind Beethoven's Ninth.  ;)

Where is the relationship with the selfishness of modern society?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: shadowmystic on October 20, 2007, 09:08:00 PM
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Beethoven is the individual behind Beethoven's Ninth.  ;)

Where is the relationship with the selfishness of modern society?


It sounded like you implied that the art is given meaning because it expresses the individual's emotions, I don't know if that's exactly what you meant but if it is, jazz has no will towards transcendence and is entirely individualistic, which is not true for metal or classical music.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Thamuz on October 20, 2007, 09:44:44 PM
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Spontaneousness, simply living the moment. Most of jazz philosophy is similar if not the identical to the beatnick philosophy. If you read some Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac, especially "On The Road", you might catch some of the ideas expressed in jazz music.

Don't you see this as the individual saying "I am not responsible for my actions in regards to their effect on society"? It seems too transient to keep my attention for too long, I think. Or did you mean it in some other way?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Vorax on October 20, 2007, 10:40:01 PM
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It sounded like you implied that the art is given meaning because it expresses the individual's emotions, I don't know if that's exactly what you meant but if it is, jazz has no will towards transcendence and is entirely individualistic, which is not true for metal or classical music.


Your will to trascend yourself, beggins, well, in you.

Tell me then, if you're sure that jazz musicians, at least the great, lack of that will.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: shadowmystic on October 20, 2007, 11:00:41 PM
Musically I think they do, although my knowledge of jazz is limited.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Azaerl on October 21, 2007, 12:03:23 AM
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I think it was pretty clear what you meant by form and message, which you've restated here as if these basic terms weren't understood.

"Message is what idea the artist is trying to communicate"

What if what they are trying to communicate is irrelevant?  Pointless?  Self-referential?  Mundane?

All art doesn't get a free pass simply because it is "art."

I'm sorry, just you saying '"message" (content)' made me think I was being misunderstood as by message I did not mean the content of the artwork.

Well, it makes it bad art doesn't it? But just because it is not trying to communicate some deep philosophical meaning, why should Jazz be discarded? Thats not what its trying to do, so why should it be judged on the same criterion as the so called "structured" music such as Classical and Black Metal?

Anyway, I've been looking at starting to listen to Dave Brubeck, Edrihan, or anyone else, do you have an suggestions on what album(s) should I start on and any other artists I may like?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: shadowmystic on October 21, 2007, 12:06:55 AM
So basically we should like jazz because it does a good job of expressing degenerate values?

People on this site generally want to get something out of music that goes beyond solipsistic, sentimental blather.  If you want to listen to jazz go ahead, but don't expect anyone here to think it's good.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Svmmoned on October 21, 2007, 02:06:30 AM
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Well, it makes it bad art doesn't it? But just because it is not trying to communicate some deep philosophical meaning, why should Jazz be discarded? Thats not what its trying to do, so why should it be judged on the same criterion as the so called "structured" music such as Classical and Black Metal?


Because without that meaning it will be the same thing as every other product, promoting same values as every other music but in jazz case with great craftmanship.
Somehow in Europe jazz seems to gain in popularity among young people with advancing globalization.

What will be your response if I say that  jazz is greatest musical achievement of modern society?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 21, 2007, 09:34:22 AM
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Beethoven is the individual behind Beethoven's Ninth.  ;)


This is not a quality argument. Individualism is not inherent to each individual.

Jazz expresses spontaneity, huh? You have low fucking standards for your art. Jazz denies structure because it's incompetent at it, but structure is what communicates something unique to each piece.

Metal has it, classical has it, and some electronic music has it. I prefer that to every piece being a variation on the same old never-ending jam.

To the idiot who said that jazz is about feeling: what a pretentious retard you are. All music is about feeling, and has feeling. You're just being a pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are. I have news for you: stupidity and self-delusion aren't unique or different. You failed.

Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: johnw on October 21, 2007, 10:32:25 AM
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Spontaneousness, simply living the moment. Most of jazz philosophy is similar if not the identical to the beatnick philosophy. If you read some Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac, especially "On The Road", you might catch some of the ideas expressed in jazz music.


Who would want to read Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac? :P
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Beethoven on October 21, 2007, 12:31:32 PM
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This is not a quality argument. Individualism is not inherent to each individual.

Jazz expresses spontaneity, huh? You have low fucking standards for your art. Jazz denies structure because it's incompetent at it, but structure is what communicates something unique to each piece.

Metal has it, classical has it, and some electronic music has it. I prefer that to every piece being a variation on the same old never-ending jam.

To the idiot who said that jazz is about feeling: what a pretentious retard you are. All music is about feeling, and has feeling. You're just being a pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are. I have news for you: stupidity and self-delusion aren't unique or different. You failed.



b4b: Can you actually name some names that "endlessly jam on the same shit". Jazz is not only about spontaenuity, there is some more structured Jazz (West Coast Jazz, for the most part) and I will repeat once more the suggestion of Dave Brubeck for those who say Jazz has little or no form.
Also on a personal note, your arguments will have more clout if you keep the bashing of individuals (or groups) to a minimum and instead attack the idea/principle. I know you've heard it from other members and probably won't listen, but it's true that you sometimes (while having good ideas) come off as a "pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are". Cheers.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on October 21, 2007, 01:55:06 PM
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b4b: Can you actually name some names that "endlessly jam on the same shit". Jazz is not only about spontaenuity, there is some more structured Jazz (West Coast Jazz, for the most part) and I will repeat once more the suggestion of Dave Brubeck for those who say Jazz has little or no form.
Also on a personal note, your arguments will have more clout if you keep the bashing of individuals (or groups) to a minimum and instead attack the idea/principle. I know you've heard it from other members and probably won't listen, but it's true that you sometimes (while having good ideas) come off as a "pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are". Cheers.


Don't bother with him, Ive told him a million times he is only taking a small picture of jazz and treating it as the whole, and every time he still comes back and says this. I mean asides from very small band lounge jazz I don't know any kind of jazz with much jamming present in it. The vast majority of Jazz music is pop music, I can agree with this, but musically it is very advanced pop music that far exceeds anything metal has ever done.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: kontinual on October 21, 2007, 01:58:54 PM
For those hung up on musicality: wouldn't posting on a musicians' site be more interesting?
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 21, 2007, 02:18:24 PM
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Don't bother with him, Ive told him a million times he is only taking a small picture of jazz and treating it as the whole, and every time he still comes back and says this.  


Maybe that's because it's his opinion, and your argument was unconvincing? Is there some law somewhere that says just because someone says something, I suddenly have to drop what I am thinking and start agreeing with them?

Are you fucking serious?

Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Beethoven on October 21, 2007, 05:42:02 PM
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Maybe that's because it's his opinion, and your argument was unconvincing? Is there some law somewhere that says just because someone says something, I suddenly have to drop what I am thinking and start agreeing with them?

Are you fucking serious?


i didn't see anywhere in his post the assertions that you are apparently taking to heart most offendedly like a priest being confronted with Varg.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 21, 2007, 06:13:39 PM
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i didn't see


I'm sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on October 21, 2007, 06:25:50 PM
An opinion as an idea presented without evidence, as of yet you have not provided any evidence as to jazz being unstructured and purely a spontaneous thing. To be honest your description of jazz sounds a lot more like a description of a Jimi Hendrix styled rock band.

Edrihan presented an argument by giving examples of jazz composers who wrote structured music, and even an example of a style of jazz that is mostly structured.

Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 21, 2007, 06:47:04 PM
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Who would want to read Allen Ginsberg or Jack Kerouac? :P


Good point, although I enjoy the way they write. Ginsberg certainly has nothing more to offer than absurd poems to laugh about. But I like Jack Kerouac because his novel, On the road, deals with something our society would not do anymore. Leave everything, get on a trip without directions and write a book in prose afterwards not knowning at all how it will be received. People prefer to stick to their daily job knowning it will increase their social status and add money in their pockets.

I know Born For Banning is about to call me a hippie right here but I am not. If there's one thing I don't like about On the road is how the character doesn't give a fuck about 75% of the things he does. I'd go on such trip. But I wouldn't do as much fucking around. The sociological aspect of the book is what I enjoyed the most. As for its closing statement, one of the many good quotes from the book:

"Bitterness, recriminations, advice, morality, sadness; everything was behind him, and ahead of him was the ragged and ecstatic joy of pure being."

Quote
An opinion as an idea presented without evidence, as of yet you have not provided any evidence as to jazz being unstructured and purely a spontaneous thing. To be honest your description of jazz sounds a lot more like a description of a Jimi Hendrix styled rock band.

Edrihan presented an argument by giving examples of jazz composers who wrote structured music, and even an example of a style of jazz that is mostly structured.



If I talked about Jazz being spontaneous, it was from MY point of view. I enjoy jazz but I am NOT a jazz musician. I agree that classical and metal music have much more intellectual content. Jazz mainly is sensual beauty.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 21, 2007, 07:02:54 PM
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An opinion as an idea presented without evidence, as of yet you have not provided any evidence as to jazz being unstructured and purely a spontaneous thing.


You seem to be assuming that I'm unfamiliar with the examples posted.

I am familiar with them, and not impressed. I disagree artistically with jazz, and I've given my reasons, but you and others don't respect them.

And then you turn around, passive aggressively, and accuse me of not answering your arguments.

Only a drunk man (or TV watcher) would not want to scream in frustration at the ignorance of it all. Ah, humanity - fuck you.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on October 22, 2007, 03:57:29 AM
I'm listening to some Dave Brubek on Youtube. It should be entitled: "Background Music for an Elevator".

Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 22, 2007, 12:47:02 PM
"a neurotic, self-obsessed, directionless elevator"
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Vorax on October 22, 2007, 02:06:35 PM
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This is not a quality argument. Individualism is not inherent to each individual.

Jazz expresses spontaneity, huh? You have low fucking standards for your art. Jazz denies structure because it's incompetent at it, but structure is what communicates something unique to each piece.

Metal has it, classical has it, and some electronic music has it. I prefer that to every piece being a variation on the same old never-ending jam.

To the idiot who said that jazz is about feeling: what a pretentious retard you are. All music is about feeling, and has feeling. You're just being a pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are. I have news for you: stupidity and self-delusion aren't unique or different. You failed.



You make me to remember when I talk with (very) professional orchestra musicians that admire jazz for the passion and interest it requires on each interpretation, because unfortunately, it's usual they get bored  with the
exact same structure of the same old works, played millions of times. Don't get me wrong, I love classical more than jazz, but to define it as a "never-ending jam" simply, makes me doubt honestly about your actual knowing about music, wich I thought firstly it was vast.

About you: it's understable that you try to raise above the anusian crowd, insulting is your mean to.

Isn't bad to insult, it's a waste of time.

Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 22, 2007, 04:18:04 PM
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I'm listening to some Dave Brubek on Youtube. It should be entitled: "Background Music for an Elevator".



Dave Brubeck is not of the most challenging artists that's for sure. Maybe you would enjoy John Zorn's Naked City.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 22, 2007, 04:36:34 PM
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Maybe you would enjoy John Zorn's Naked City.


Even fucking worse! If you're gonna listen to jazz, at least pick up some Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, Chick Korea and Nils Landgren.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on October 22, 2007, 06:34:16 PM
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This is not a quality argument. Individualism is not inherent to each individual.

Jazz expresses spontaneity, huh? You have low fucking standards for your art. Jazz denies structure because it's incompetent at it, but structure is what communicates something unique to each piece.

Metal has it, classical has it, and some electronic music has it. I prefer that to every piece being a variation on the same old never-ending jam.

To the idiot who said that jazz is about feeling: what a pretentious retard you are. All music is about feeling, and has feeling. You're just being a pretentious fucktard so you can feel how different you are. I have news for you: stupidity and self-delusion aren't unique or different. You failed.



Going back this this. A lot of jazz has very simple structures, simple to the level of blues and verse chorus styled rock songs. This makes up the majority of the most popular forms of jazz. This is esspeically true about stage bands who perform swing and many other kinds of more popular big band jazz. But it also has much more complex structures. This becomes more true as to the less popular the jazz becomes and the smaller the bands become.

There is some Jazz which fits your description of it (if loosely so) such as bebop, but bebop was an style of jazz that went against many jazz standards. So you description of jazz goes against many jazz standards that are prevalent throughout jazz.

But going back to the very first post I find very little jazz interesting and none of the music you posted held my attention for long. Musically jazz is interesting and can be a useful tool if studied to enhance your own compositions but as a genre in itself I see most of it as the same as Britney spears. There is only a small amount of advante garde jazz that I can tolerate, and thats tolerate not enjoy.  
I just find almost all jazz to be the same old everything is going to be alright mentality.  

 
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 22, 2007, 06:36:59 PM
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But going back to the very first post I find very little jazz interesting and none of the music you posted held my attention for long. Musically jazz is interesting and can be a useful tool if studied to enhance your own compositions but as a genre in itself I see most of it as the same as Britney spears.
...
I just find almost all jazz to be the same old everything is going to be alright mentality.


I have no disagreement with the above. I would like to add that I disagree, artistically and musically, with what jazz is trying to do. It's a step away from clarity toward confusion and that mentality you mention.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 23, 2007, 01:07:40 AM
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Even fucking worse! If you're gonna listen to jazz, at least pick up some Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, Chick Korea and Nils Landgren.


I said so since I though the guy would have enjoyed something more "metal". Personally, I'm more into ECM artists than anything else. And that will be my last post on the subject.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Humanicide on October 23, 2007, 02:59:48 PM
i prefer my Jazz instrumental. i enjoy the focus on instruments and the vocals usually resemble sugary pop music or top 40 singers, something which i avoid like the plague.

im a bassist, so i really enjoy listening to the basslines and how each instrument plays off of it.

however, i could see how someone could not like jazz.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 23, 2007, 03:29:39 PM
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i prefer my Jazz instrumental.


I completely agree. As soon as you get vocals into the mix, song structures and dynamic change go into the toilet, or get really cheesy and stupid.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Prospero on October 23, 2007, 04:29:48 PM
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last post on the subject.


...not quite yet

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I completely agree. As soon as you get vocals into the mix, song structures and dynamic change go into the toilet, or get really cheesy and stupid.


Vocal jazz is indeed unoriginal. Every artists seem to be the same. A few were good at the time of Armstrong (one of the pioneers in growl).
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: born for banning on October 23, 2007, 06:53:02 PM
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Vocal jazz is indeed unoriginal. Every artists seem to be the same.


Vocals hold most music back, because then all the instruments must support the vocal. Metal is often best when it has long instrumental parts so it doesn't become slave to the human voice.
Title: Re: Jazz and the essence of metal
Post by: Humanicide on October 30, 2007, 02:52:44 PM
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I completely agree. As soon as you get vocals into the mix, song structures and dynamic change go into the toilet, or get really cheesy and stupid.


precisely. i love how in instrumental jazz, each respective instrument explores and reflects off of each other. its quite wonderful when im in the mood.

also, regarding vocals holding music back, what of vocals with little melody? (screaming, growling, screeching, and the like). often times, i find that the music is unhindered by them, as those vocals are usually just used as another rythmic device.