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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: Blood River on November 07, 2007, 04:52:31 PM

Title: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Blood River on November 07, 2007, 04:52:31 PM
I found this video interesting... http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/07/school.shooting/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

Make sure to scroll down for the link to the full article.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Dunkelheit on November 07, 2007, 05:18:34 PM
I was just about to make a thread on this. Here is his manifesto:

Quote
Natural Selector’s Manifesto


How Did Natural Selection Turn Into Idiocratic Selection?



Today the process of natural selection is totally misguided. It has reversed. Human race has been devolving very long time for now. Retarded and stupid , weak-minded people are reproducing more and faster than the intelligent, strong-minded people. Laws protect the retarded majority which selects the leaders of society. Modern human race has not only betrayed its ancestors, but the future generations too. Homo Sapiens, HAH! It is more like a Homo Idioticus to me! When I look at people I see every day in society, school and everywhere... I can’t say I belong to same race as the lousy, miserable, arrogant, selfish human race! No! I have evolved one step above!

Naturality has been discriminated through religions, ideologies, laws and other mass delusion systems. Individual, who is going through his/hers natural power process and trying to live naturally, but is being told that the way he acts or thinks is wrong and stupid, will usually have some reactions which might be considered as "psychological disorders" by the establishment. In reality they are just natural reactions to the disruption of natural power process. They will have some of the following (depending on individual's personality): feelings of inferiority / superiority, hostility, aggression, frustration, depression, self-hatred / hatred towards other people, suicidal / homicidal thought etc... and it is completely normal.

Humans are just a species among other animals and world does not exist only for humans. Death and killing is not a tragedy, it happens in nature all the time between all species. Not all human lives are important or worth saving. Only superior (intelligent, self-aware, strong-minded) individuals should survive while inferior (stupid, retarded, weak-minded masses) should perish.

There is also another solution to the problem: stupid people as slaves and intelligent people as free. What I mean is that they who have free minds, are capable of intelligent existential and philosophical thinking and know what justice is, should be free and rulers... and the robotic masses, they can be slaves since they do not mind it now either and because their minds are on so retarded level. The gangsters that now rule societies, would of course get what they deserve.

Of course there is a final solution too: death of entire human race. It would solve every problem of humanity. The faster human race is wiped out from this planet, the better... no one should be left alive. I have no mercy for the scum of earth, the pathetic human race.

Collective Deindividualization: Totalitarianism & Delusions Of Democracy


Collective deindividualization is a phenomenon where individual will be trained as part of the mindless herd controlled by state, corporation, church or some other organization, group, ideology, religion or mass delusion system and adopt it's rules, morality and codes of conduct. This phenomenon has been familiar in all despotic, authoritarian, totalitarian, monarchist, communist, socialist, nazi, fascist and religious societies troughout history. Also, the modern western democratic republics have the same phenomenon. It is just done so that people will think they are free and don't realize they are being enslaved. Majority of people in society are weak-minded and ignorant retards, masses that act like programmed robots and accept voluntarily slavery. But not me! I am self-aware and realize what is going on in society! I have a free mind! And I choose to be free rather than live like a robot or slave. You can say I have a “god complex”, sure... then you have a “group complex”! Compared to you retarded masses, I am actually godlike.

Totalitarian governments rule people through education system, consumerism, mass media, monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force (police, military) and laws discriminating people who think differently than the majority. Democracy... you think democracy means freedom and justice? You are wrong. Democracy is a dictatorship of the moral majority... and the majority is manipulated and ruled by the state mafia. Modern western democracy has nothing to do with freedom or justice; it is totalitarian and corrupted system. Laws are made over the heads of the people and people are being brainwashed to support the system and connected to the institutional structures immediately after their birth. Societies are being ruled by manipulative and charismatic politicians who only care about the interests of majority, and who do not base their decisions on reason but emotions and feelings of the masses. These masses let the authorities of state to make all the important decisions for them. The masses will get an education, they study, get a job, go to work and vote in elections. They think they are free and don’t criticise or question the system. They have become robots. It is like a constructed mechanism in mind, that leaves little choice for an individual to think, talk and act independently.

Three Kinds Of Humans


There are three kinds of human personality types in this world:
1)individualistic human (3% of the world population)
2)manipulative human (3% of the world population)
3)mass human (94% of the world population)

#1 & #2 type of personalities are intelligent, creative and self-aware. They have chosen bit different paths paths. #3 type of personalities are less intelligent and less creative, weak-minded people controlled by #2 type of personalities. The percentages are only estimations though but are based on Gaussian distribution and history of human race and how humans have organized into societies. And this is the way it has always been ever since humans started to organize into communities.

Another way how to divide people is bit different but is based on the same facts, human nature and history. The division is based on the level of intelligence and quality of mentality:

    * intelligent (3% of the world population)
    * slightly retarded, so called “normal people” or “robots” (94% of the world population)
    * highly retarded, “vegetables” (3% of the world population)

Total War Against Humanity


Hate, Im so full of it and I love it. That is one thing I really love. Some time ago, I used to believe in humanity and I wanted to live a long and happy life... but then I woke up. I started to think deeper and realized things. But it was not easy to become existential... knowing as much as I know has made me unhappy, frustrated and angry. I just can’t be happy in the society or the reality I live. Due to long process of existential thinking, observing the society I live and some other things happened in my life... I have come to the point where I feel nothing but hate against humanity and human race.

Life is just a meaningless coincidence... result of long process of evolution and many several factors, causes and effects. However, life is also something that an individual wants and determines it to be. And I'm the dictator and god of my own life. And me, I have chosen my way. I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am “insane”, “crazy”, “psychopath”, “criminal” or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don’t want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can’t alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don’t blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don’t blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don’t blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

Justice renders to everyone his due.

- Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka NaturalSelector89, Natural Selector, Sturmgeist89 and Sturmgeist).
I also use pseydonym Eric von Auffoin internationally.


He had some good ideas, yet seems to have succumbed to fatalism.

(http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/071107/afp/isgeseh64071107224610photo02.jpg?x=380&y=191&sig=l6HrHmBD6Ixb.i0dMHN8Ew--)
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 07, 2007, 05:41:48 PM
There are so many things that are so wrong and stupid about that passage... that I don't even know where to begin, and quite honestly I'm not even motivated enough to look back over the passage, take quotes and prove my points. But I will say that he might be right about the majority of people not being "intelligent" in the fact that people can't think beyond the norm, but yet if he were as intelligent as he says he is then he would have known that he would accomplish absolutely nothing and that he was the weak one because he was controlled by hate just as we are by 'democracy.'
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Mithrandir on November 07, 2007, 06:03:17 PM
The important thing was- was he an ANUS member?
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 07, 2007, 06:11:48 PM
ANUS article: Jokela, Finland School Shootings: Society Blames Others For Its Illness (http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/jokela/)

If you want to help ANUS spread the pro-Auvinen word:

1. Digg (http://digg.com/world_news/Jokela_Finland_School_Shootings_Society_Blames_Others_For_Its_Illness) the ANUS article.

2. Join the facebook group Jokela Highschool Shooting Sympathizers (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6054993914)

3. Spread the word on mailing lists, forums and blogs, as was done here (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/jenkem/message/3).
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: o.d.i.r. on November 07, 2007, 06:12:42 PM
Sturgmeister? Curious way to pronounce Sturmgeist.  ::)

How is this being covered over in the US? I hear over there this isn't being given much attention if any at all. Not that they won't be quick to shrug it off and decide to blame it on violent video games and music despite what the shooter said anyway.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Boltzmann on November 07, 2007, 06:21:05 PM
Here's his profile on youtube before they took it down http://www.kimmo.org/jokela/YouTube%20-%20Smurmgeist89.jpg . I doubt that someone that likes bands like Rammstein or Children of Bodom would be a frequent ANUS visiter, though he obviously had some nihilistic tendency. He does like a few great bands like Slayer or Suffocation though.

Here's the video he posted yesterday http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=369_1194449557

and here's where you can find the other things he wrote http://www.albaani.org/~ilmari/Tuusula/

I think it's a waste that he decided to kill himself like that, he could have had more influence on the world around him if he had tried to find like minded individuals instead of going on a one time killing spree.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 07, 2007, 06:22:47 PM
He was a metalhead:

Quote
Films and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove, House MD (TV), Monty Python, TV Documentaries Relating To History

Music: KMFDM, Rammstein, Eisbrecher, Nine Inch Nails, Grendel, Impaled Nazarene, Macabre, Deathstars, The Prodigy, Combichrist, Godsmack, Slayer, Children Of Bodom, Alice Cooper, Sturmgeist, Suicide Commando, Hatebreed, Suffocation, Terrorizer

Books: Fahrenheit 451 (Bradbury), 1984 (Orwell), Brave New World (Huxley), The Republic (Plato), all works of Nietzsche


http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=353633&cid=21273893

Sort of...

Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Dunkelheit on November 07, 2007, 06:27:27 PM
Quote
Sturgmeister? Curious way to pronounce Sturmgeist.  ::)

How is this being covered over in the US? I hear over there this isn't being given much attention if any at all. Not that they won't be quick to shrug it off and decide to blame it on violent video games and music despite what the shooter said anyway.


I don't really bother paying attention to the media here. You'd think they'd jump on it, but maybe they aren't because there isn't much to latch onto for them. The kid accepted responsibility for his actions, so any diatribes about prescription drugs, violent movies, music, etc would be redundant. He also doesn't quite fit the "angry white male" stereotype quite well enough (I believe he is of at least partial Sami ancestry)... though they did cover the Virginia Tech shooting quite a bit. Any anti-gun banter would be useless as Finland, as said in the cnn video, has large-scale gun ownership with very little gun crime. One string they could pull though, is condemn him as a fascist/nazi/whathaveyou, yet they don't have the usual crux of racism they use in these arguments. You have to remember we're talking about the press here, if they can't throw their spin on a story, they don't cover it.

I'd like to also add that I in no way condone this kid's action, neither condemn it. I think at heart he was a young idealist frustrated by the state of the modern world. I think there are better outlets he could've pursued (some positive, some negative yet with more effect) than killing his classmates and himself. One thing these events do present, though, is an opportunity for discussion of the motives and ideals behind the acts. Though, as usual, I suspect time will be spent more on the sentiment for the victims and condemnation of the culprit.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: oogaa on November 07, 2007, 06:48:08 PM
This is a problem created by the society for the society. It was / is / will be inevitable. But his idea of Social Darwinism is as retarded as it can get. Even if I come to terms with the principle of the theory, his application of shows that he hardly understood it.

"Natural Selection" - Selection by nature, not by humans. Given the theory is true, it should be that nature automatically mandates the survival of the fittest (intelligent people) and the extinction of the weak (the sheeps). By doing this, he simply put himself in the postion where he accused most of the so called 'authorities' in the society are at. A position from where they judge what is right and wrong.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Dunkelheit on November 07, 2007, 06:56:52 PM
Quote
Natural Selection" - Selection by nature, not by humans. Given the theory is true, it should be that nature automatically mandates the survival of the fittest (intelligent people) and the extinction of the weak (the sheeps).


Aren't humans part of nature? While I agree that he doesn't quite grasp social-darwinism (which is a pretty idiotic concept and could just as well be used to justify capitalism, multiculturalism, consumerism, and stupidity), I don't think you quite have a grasp of it either. Nature isn't 'the other', it is the all. If you were to view nature (all of existence) as a single organism you would see that each plant, animal, mineral, gas, idea, etc is a cell or group of cells within that organism. The cells that are healthy or benign are cultivated while the cancerous ones are rejected. Social-Darwinism obviously isn't true since it seems the weak, parasitic, cancerous people have not been wiped out and often hold positions of authority. I think what Auvinen really believed was that humans have attempted to separate and protect themselves from nature and are thus allowing the cancer to grow.

Social-Darwinism, at least how it has been presented to me, assumes that the social realm applies the same selections to its constituency that the broader natural realm does. In reality, I think it's much more logical to say that societies form in order to manage and lessen the risks inherent in the chaotic, amoral, natural world. Religion, Morality, and Politics are all tools used in this process. To that effect, throughout history as societies become more and more complex they tend to disrupt the natural processes of nature yet essentially only prolonging their short stay before they are eventually engulfed by the chaotic force of nature.

This isn't to say that a healthy society can't exist. But that such equilibriums can be hard to gain and very easy to lose.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 07, 2007, 07:05:02 PM
Quote
I think it's a waste that he decided to kill himself like that, he could have had more influence on the world around him if he had tried to find like minded individuals instead of going on a one time killing spree.


Yea he COULD have had more influence if he had tried to find like-minded people but it wouldn't have been a good influence because he was obviously more ignorant that he thought. He went from viewing the world in a different perspective (usually a good thing) to letting himself fall victim to hate... just like any other weak-minded person, he fell submissive to the average, yet in his case, extreme human psyche called emotion. And, lastly, the fact that he did not look for like-minded people as opposed to a one time killing spree is proof of his ignorance.

Therefore, his death was not a waste.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: oogaa on November 07, 2007, 07:15:10 PM
My point was - For Social Natural Selection to be true, the weaks should perish as if it were a natural phenomena like rotation of earth or the entropic disorder that just happens by itself without any human interference. It might be tempting to then say  "but we are just animals, and only the strong ones survive in the wild." like the killer did, but If you want to strip yourself off 'humanity' that is innate in you and want to bring yourself down to the level of  animals, you have to part yourself away from rationality too and without rationality in human beings, the whole idea of some people being more intelligent than others would simply not exist. His argument implodes on itself.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 07, 2007, 07:15:53 PM
Also, I would like to see someone with enough balls to actually TRULY stand behind their theory on life and actually not commit suicide. This will never happen... they're all weak.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: oogaa on November 07, 2007, 07:34:05 PM
I never said that.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Dunkelheit on November 07, 2007, 07:37:43 PM
Quote
My point was - For Social Natural Selection to be true, the weaks should perish as if it were a natural phenomena like rotation of earth or the entropic disorder that just happens by itself without any human interference. It might be tempting to then say  "but we are just animals, and only the strong ones survive in the wild." like the killer did, but If you want to strip yourself off 'humanity' that is innate in you and want to bring yourself down to the level of  animals, you have to part yourself away from rationality too and without rationality in human beings, the whole idea of some people being more intelligent than others would simply not exist. His argument implodes on itself.


What I was trying to show you was that Humans are a part of nature. Natural selection isn't magic, it's competition between organisms for sustenance and procreation. I also don't ascribe to your notion that humans are somehow superior to all other animals and the rest of nature. While it is true that we most likely have the highest level of intellect and communication amongst animals, we are weaker than some animals in other aspects. Evolution does not produce "supreme" lifeforms, it rewards those which can adapt. A human is not "better" than a cactus, they both, however, have been able to adapt to their respective environmental pressures and survive. The dodo bird, isn't among them.. but that is not because of a lack of superiority but a lack of the ability to adapt to changing conditions. This is a nihilist website, drop the dualism in favor of objectively looking at what works and what doesn't and in which environments.

For my critique of Social-Darwinism, which in some ways coincides with yours. refer to my earlier post in response to you.

As far as rationality, one could argue that other animals are just as rational or irrational as humans depending on the situation. A lion sees a weak gazelle and realizes it presents an easy kill. At the same time a dog chases it's tail. A human confronts the cold, frosty, weather of the north, he builds shelter and clothing. Humans stop natural forest fires and thus allow more destructive fires to start which wipe out all of the forest along with the houses near it. At times humans are no smarter than the bacteria that eats their sweat.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 07, 2007, 07:40:33 PM
Quote
I never said that.


Oh yea, my bad... maybe next time I should pay attention, ha... sorry
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: detrath on November 07, 2007, 08:19:58 PM
I have no sympathy for this moron, only scorn; he is symptomatic of modern fatalism and nothing else. He is quick to criticize everything except himself - no capacity for self-discipline or the fostering of deeper spiritual capacities. He is a dull spirit trapped in a negative abstraction in his head, his own perspective divorced from reality. It doesn't matter how accurate aspects of your ideals may be if they cover your eyes like cataracts. He merely saw the world as instantiations of the generalizations in his mind, which fails to do justice to all that is hopeful, subtle, and inspiring in our world. I truly hope no one glorifies him.

What's the solution to the problems of the world? Viewing them clearly? Perhaps riding the tiger? Nope - just get rid of the species, no more problem! Brilliant. The bullet in his head thankfully counted when all was said and done.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Necrolust on November 08, 2007, 02:34:43 AM
Hah. Perhaps "the ugly truth" is too much for some people to handle. He should've just stuck with Rammstein and slasher films, and avoided philosophy. To say he was truly weak would be a massive understatement. His rashness prevented any positive change with his supposedly-clear perspectives on life...
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on November 08, 2007, 06:30:09 AM
His action wasn't fatalistic. What have any of us done to equal his accomplishment? Are not these events ringing bells to the more perceptive in our society? He was a one man pressure group taking direct action. I have no criticism of the man.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 08, 2007, 06:48:57 AM
Quote
His action wasn't fatalistic. What have any of us done to equal his accomplishment? Are not these events ringing bells to the more perceptive in our society? He was a one man pressure group taking direct action. I have no criticism of the man.


What "accomplishment"? Anyone who avoids extremist bullshit thoughts like the ones he embraced has accomplished more in life than this fucker. These events are ringing bells, only to the fact that some twist their philosophy to be what they want and no longer base it on their original somewhat knowledgeable thoughts. To be a one man pressure group is nothing, anyone in this world could be a one man pressure group but it only takes a blind idiot to finally become one.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: fractal on November 08, 2007, 07:25:01 AM
Today, I printed the ANUS article and put it on the bulletin board in my school next to the article about the shooting that was in the newspaper. Hope it will make at least one man think about at least the lying media, if not about the actual case of Auvinen.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on November 08, 2007, 08:10:31 AM
Quote

What "accomplishment"? Anyone who avoids extremist bullshit thoughts like the ones he embraced has accomplished more in life than this fucker. These events are ringing bells, only to the fact that some twist their philosophy to be what they want and no longer base it on their original somewhat knowledgeable thoughts. To be a one man pressure group is nothing, anyone in this world could be a one man pressure group but it only takes a blind idiot to finally become one.



You're a moron. There should be a forum below chasm just for you.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 08, 2007, 10:56:16 AM
Quote


You're a moron. There should be a forum below chasm just for you.


Oh... okay... why did I ever doubt you? God, now it makes perfect sense.

The one who insults instead of intellectually disproving is the real moron.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: detrath on November 08, 2007, 11:27:05 AM
Quote
His action wasn't fatalistic.

 What have any of us done to equal his accomplishment?

 Are not these events ringing bells to the more perceptive in our society?

 He was a one man pressure group taking direct action. I have no criticism of the man.


He accomplished -something- certainly. He felt humanity as a whole should be wiped out, and so he contributed to that end. Do we uphold the ideal that humanity should be wiped out? Do we hate life that much? If not, I fail to see how a few dead school children is any kind of accomplishment.

You might say that his media exposure will give exposure to the corrupt message. Perhaps negative media exposure is an accomplishment, but it's not -his- accomplishment. It's simply parasitically riding his actions.

He is absolutely a fatalist. He felt the world was corrupt in our special general sense of the term, which it is fair to say we all seem to believe to be true in some form or another, but he succumbed to the corruption. One might succumb to it by becoming a part of it (all the quiet television watching folks out there). He succumbed in a different way: he was driven to madness by it. He stared the tiger in the eyes and lashed out only to be swept away, leaving no greater enduring impression. The clearest evidence is the fact that he took his own life. This is clearly not a sensible act. You don't opt out of life if you have hope for the future. He obviously did not; the future is set in stone to an absolute degree for him. He was too dull, stubborn, and young to see the other sides of life.

Maybe we agree with the truth of some of his motives, but it does not follow that this act is the sensible action to take as a result of those motives.

I thought you people read Evola; what happened to riding the tiger?
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: detrath on November 08, 2007, 11:30:50 AM
Quote

These events are ringing bells, only to the fact that some twist their philosophy to be what they want and no longer base it on their original somewhat knowledgeable thoughts.


I think this is an important fact about this case to be recognized. He seemed to be perceptive to corrupt features of reality and had informed thoughts in the beginning, and then moved to extreme abstract ideals, but never came back down to earth to consider their consequences. The consequence was clearly fatal: his ideology led to his death and nothing else of enduring value.

There's a popular term used on these forums for ideals like that: Failure.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: NEVR4GETLOL on November 08, 2007, 12:41:56 PM
Quote

He accomplished -something- certainly. He felt humanity as a whole should be wiped out, and so he contributed to that end. Do we uphold the ideal that humanity should be wiped out? Do we hate life that much? If not, I fail to see how a few dead school children is any kind of accomplishment.

You might say that his media exposure will give exposure to the corrupt message. Perhaps negative media exposure is an accomplishment, but it's not -his- accomplishment. It's simply parasitically riding his actions.

He is absolutely a fatalist. He felt the world was corrupt in our special general sense of the term, which it is fair to say we all seem to believe to be true in some form or another, but he succumbed to the corruption. One might succumb to it by becoming a part of it (all the quiet television watching folks out there). He succumbed in a different way: he was driven to madness by it. He stared the tiger in the eyes and lashed out only to be swept away, leaving no greater enduring impression. The clearest evidence is the fact that he took his own life. This is clearly not a sensible act. You don't opt out of life if you have hope for the future. He obviously did not; the future is set in stone to an absolute degree for him. He was too dull, stubborn, and young to see the other sides of life.

Maybe we agree with the truth of some of his motives, but it does not follow that this act is the sensible action to take as a result of those motives.

I thought you people read Evola; what happened to riding the tiger?


It depended on how he thought he could best promote his own goals. Philosophy? Maybe he isn't that sharp, what else has he to add? Politics? Maybe he isn't a people person. Asymmetrical activism? Maybe those around him aren't worthy of time. Shoot a bunch of people and get out of life? Two birds with one stone, and it sure as hell screams out to more people. Why are we caring more about the loss of life and the loss of his life than what he might have accomplished?

I don't read Evola. Philosophy is a bore sometimes.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Septicemia on November 08, 2007, 12:57:32 PM
Quote
He seemed to be perceptive to corrupt features of reality and had informed thoughts in the beginning, and then moved to extreme abstract ideals, but never came back down to earth to consider their consequences.


I would expect very few people to be able to return to "the real world" after having reached such conclusions (which may have been, at the time, reached rationally or irrationally), taken them to heart, and live in today's world, attending high school. Teenagers, usually regardless of "IQ"/intellect, are extremely impressionable, and tends towards this sort of hormone-fueled irrationality. Expecting someone that has already reached purportedly misanthropic conclusions is probably going to self-destruct anyhow, both due to their character and the pronounced neurosis of our modern times.

I feel like a lot of the discussion in this thread seeks to label this event and this person as something necessarily "good" or "bad" (intellectually well-intentioned vs. moronic, confused vs. corrupted, etc.); the same thing has happened with regard to other current events and modern dilemmas, but most recently terrorism and Islam. The fact is, we KNOW that this is indicative of a growing phenomenon - and that this might provoke (global) society to recognize its flaws or it might not. If we nit-pick over every inconsequential little detail then it seems we only end up confusing ourselves or bickering rather than actually learning from each other.

Also, do you "not read" Evola, or just have never gotten around to it?
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: detrath on November 08, 2007, 01:29:55 PM
I've had Evola's reference to Riding the Tiger in my mind throughout this whole discussion. The article and the propaganda being spread by corrupt is trying to paint the shooter as sensible or heroic. I feel this is false. Evola criticizes the kind of nihilism that leads to this kind of random lashing out. The most sensible thing one can do is to ride the tiger until it is worn out. We must be strong enough to hold on in modern society, preserving within us Tradition and not being swept away by the current trends. Lashing out accomplishes nothing.

I don't think these are inconsequential little details. False claims are being made that can only distort the perception of what is believed to be true by corrupt/anus. That he would have been seen as heroic in any time is an insane thing to claim.

I don't doubt what you say about the inevitability of the shooting given his age and the ideology he held onto. That only supports that this was not a sensible thing to do, nor was it heroic in any way. He is not transcending anything; he is crumbling under the weight of his ideology.

Why I am persistent: This will not provoke society to recognize its flaws if those who are trying to get it to become more self-aware make crazy claims in the process. People are not totally stupid and will reject looking at themselves and their society if the voice telling them to take a look is making foolish claims for the sake of shocking people out of disillusionment. It will take on the tone of shock for the sake of shock and be forgotten.

I'm not going to run around trying to thwart your efforts. I am merely trying to point out something I see as problematic in the hopes of refining and focusing future efforts.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: I_Stab_People on November 08, 2007, 05:52:14 PM
The kid's ideas about human extinction is commendable, plus he had the balls to take his own life instead of getting butt-fucked in jail.
Think about it, what he said about the demise of homo sapiens is the next step towards human evolution. No more humans on earth, at least there would be no more nations, no more mtv, no more crappy metal albums, isn't that what Prozak is always talking about, only death is real. Now that is true nihilism. Maybe some of you in this forum who preach too much about upholding Hessian ideals should follow in this kid's footsteps. Start acting and stop bitching.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 08, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
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The kid's ideas about human extinction is commendable, plus he had the balls to take his own life instead of getting butt-fucked in jail.
Think about it, what he said about the demise of homo sapiens is the next step towards human evolution. No more humans on earth, at least there would be no more nations, no more mtv, no more crappy metal albums, isn't that what Prozak is always talking about, only death is real. Now that is true nihilism. Maybe some of you in this forum who preach too much about upholding Hessian ideals should follow in this kid's footsteps. Start acting and stop bitching.


The idea of human extinction may get rid of all the problems but so does learning to not let anger control you. Obviously, this is a true test of intellectual and emotional strength.

And he most certainly does not have any balls. I don’t give a shit what the consequences will be, if you have balls you wouldn’t run from the aftermath of your most important life decision like a coward.

Haven’t I previously stated in this forum that people just continue to follow Prozak and never actually think for themselves? Yes, I’ve said it fifty fucking times and have debated intensely about it with kontinual and then idiots like you come along and prove it. If you truly follow the Hessian ideals then why must you cite another person as a higher rank in power? You are no leader or free-thinker, just a follower.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: kontinual on November 08, 2007, 07:12:32 PM
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Haven’t I previously stated in this forum that people just continue to follow Prozak and never actually think for themselves? Yes, I’ve said it fifty fucking times and have debated intensely about it with kontinual and then idiots like you come along and prove it. If you truly follow the Hessian ideals then why must you cite another person as a higher rank in power? You are no leader or free-thinker, just a follower.


Nobody debated you about this.  You set yourself up as a kind of inconoclastic persecuted minority and decided your best recourse was to continue to play that role as a means to divert attention from real arguments.

Do all your ideas come exclusively from within, derived from your own experience?  Do you think Nietzsche was a follower and an asshole for admiring Schopenhauer or Emerson on some level publicly?  Was Plato a sheepish moron for drawing experience from Socrates?

Around here, we find it is more fun to talk about ideas than to obsess about the supposed personalities behind those ideas.  Using a name in reference to a thought is not automatically some fallacious appeal to authority for you to attack.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Skjold on November 08, 2007, 08:13:52 PM
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The idea of human extinction may get rid of all the problems but so does learning to not let anger control you. Obviously, this is a true test of intellectual and emotional strength.

And he most certainly does not have any balls. I don’t give a shit what the consequences will be, if you have balls you wouldn’t run from the aftermath of your most important life decision like a coward.


You have no way of knowing if he was motivated by anger, some philosophical insight of divine intervention, so quit bringing it up. Only one person knew this, and he is now gone.

As for him being a coward, how is staying around to rot in jail being brave? I don't see anything particularly useful about it.

As for this guy, he sounds like he was halfway there (and that's about half way further then most people), but unfortunately seemed to find no way to do anything about the state of the world other than lashing out. It is a shame, as if he had perhaps had more patience he could have had more of an impact in the long run, ultimately now his action will now have no impact, as any symbolic statement in it will be bluntly converted to "he was angry and insane" by the crowd/media.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 09, 2007, 09:30:40 AM
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If you truly follow the Hessian ideals then why must you cite another person as a higher rank in power?


What if you agree with them?

Do I have to invent some trivial variation on Nietzsche's theories just because he wrote them, and I don't want to be a follower?

You're following the image of not being a follower, but you are as controlled as any Dittohead out there.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: scourge on November 09, 2007, 09:40:22 AM
Conformity to our postmodern mainstream expectations of individualism is pitiful. It's American democracy at the single unit voter scale, sans the organized lobbies that very much like the arrangement. Always being different has no potential even if one's arguments are the most sound. Concentrated interest trumps merit in our age.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Heydrich on November 09, 2007, 04:58:39 PM
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It will take on the tone of shock for the sake of shock and be forgotten.


I'm not certain it hasn't been largely forgotton already in the US. This story dropped off the media radar screen in a day! It seems rather unlikely this fellow's actions will be anything but a mildly unpleasant memory for most within a week's time. Which given his apprent motivation is nothing if not tragically ironic...
If anything, in America, it will likely only stir up some predictable squabbling about gun-control and nothing more.  



Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Christ Fucking Malarkey on November 09, 2007, 05:38:47 PM
If only this young gentleman would have considered the words of his fellow countrymen, a little band called Sentenced, in lyrics written nearly fifteen years ago:

"The oath we had sworn gave us reason to live on..."

All paths lead to death; one need not hasten the process if this is something they understand, and if they have the potential to incorporate this meaningfully into their existence. Our weapon is knowledge, wisdom. To engage in acts of violence which result in the quenching of human lives only serves to affirm the superstitions of the masses. Our society is Hydra serpent that multiplies with each blow dealt to it. Effectively dealing with the problem will require Herculean efforts on behalf of anyone who is capable. Between our concrete, perceived "reality" and abstraction lies vast expanse of subtlety, the method employed by the Greek hero that ultimately led to his success in each challenge he undertook. It would serve us well to acquaint ourselves with this realm!
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: pagan980938127 on November 09, 2007, 06:03:17 PM
I see a few conflicting thoughts on this story.

First, if he hadn't gone on a rampage and committed suicide, I wouldn't have read his "manifesto" - that is true.  Is that a valid excuse to go on a solitary rampage... phrased differently: is anyone actually going to digest this who didn't agree with it beforehand?  (I happen to hold several of his beliefs, excepting the adolescent misanthropia.)  What did I learn from this incident and what did society as a whole learn?

Personally, the answer is nothing.  He was obviously rather confused about the world.  He uses the word "hate" in the manifesto and to me, that implies a strong emotional connection to the human race, similar to a child who uses "I hate ..." when his parents take away his favorite toy and he's left helpless.  The child is not disconnected from the parents but painfully aware of the relationship - not every child behaves that way and I'd call the barrier between hate/violence vs. leadership an intellectual one.  Also my concept of nature as the forces of the universe, is that they're emotionless, cold, and never selfish (having in fact no guiding will).  That's why I'm a nihilist.  So I would claim that he was not a natural selector, but an artificial one, and ironically, may have been the primary target of nature.

Secondly, a difference between a child and a mature adult is being able to manage your emotions and redirect your passions toward productive outcomes.  This kid might have published books, led a revolution, halted environmental destruction, but instead chose to act in a short-sighted and selfish manner - suicide always results from the ego and internal conflict.  We have enough selfishness in the world now to call this behavior remarkable and least of all admirable.  Also to commit suicide is to admit defeat, defeat is a result of weakness, making his choice even less admirable.  A "smart" person would never consider suicide, because if you have life there are always opportunities to get what you want while making a positive change.

Third, the society he refers to has not seized this as an opportunity to discuss his ideas (see the speedy removal of his YouTube account and I expect his entire online identity will follow as the "investigation" unfolds).  He is being written out of existence, except for a caricature which will be propagated by mass media.  He has only served to strengthen that which he hated.  There will not be any mass uprising, no destruction of modern society.  Surely an intelligent person could have foreseen this.  Don't confuse recklessness with bravery.

Finally, to be only 18 years old and convinced the world is without hope is a position of absolute ignorance (or the best case: a lucky guess).
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: LingNemesis on November 10, 2007, 07:20:10 AM
The above post summarises what I have in mind exactly.

Those kids need time to calm down and think logically if their actions would really make a difference or not.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 10, 2007, 12:48:36 PM
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Those kids need time to calm down and think logically if their actions would really make a difference or not.


Yes they need to learn to ignore their problems and live long lives in society and not take any action on their beliefs

Parden the sarcasm.  

Let me throw in a breif thought.  When you people talk about thinking about consequences, you must have in mind that the point of life is to live long and be close to your family.  Is that what you want the point of your life to be.  This man, whether ignorant or not, came up with his own view of the world and decided to define his life by it.  It ended up making his life rather short but he achieved more, whether he achieved what he wanted to or not, than any quiet person who complains on message boards.  

I think his consequences matched his goal.  It might have been a dumb goal to some here, but he died by the sword for what he believed in.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: oogaa on November 10, 2007, 06:44:05 PM
"dying by the sword for what he believed in' doesn't justify his belief. The 9/11 bombers actually believed that they would be going to heaven and be greeted by virgins when they do what they did. Does that mean that taking down two towers takes you to heaven and you'll get to bang some virgins? Or does that mean that we should condone their actions simply because they died by the sword for that they believed in?
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 10, 2007, 09:15:33 PM
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He uses the word "hate" in the manifesto and to me, that implies a strong emotional connection to the human race, similar to a child who uses "I hate ..." when his parents take away his favorite toy and he's left helpless.
...
Finally, to be only 18 years old and convinced the world is without hope is a position of absolute ignorance (or the best case: a lucky guess).


Human race? Do you mean human species?

Next, I think being 18 years old and convinced the world is without hope is an informed position. If one survives some years of that, the question becomes how to enlarge whatever hope it is, as just about anything is higher than zero... but the world is headed toward suicide.

I don't have a problem with connection to humanity. I think it's obvious we're connected to humanity. Buddhists and quasi-overmen can transcend in their own imaginations, and what? The march to doom continues. It takes a different kind of overman to be both human and higher-striving.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 11, 2007, 11:41:00 AM
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"dying by the sword for what he believed in' doesn't justify his belief. The 9/11 bombers actually believed that they would be going to heaven and be greeted by virgins when they do what they did. Does that mean that taking down two towers takes you to heaven and you'll get to bang some virgins? Or does that mean that we should condone their actions simply because they died by the sword for that they believed in?



Well I said you may or may not agree with his goal.  the point is, unlike the rest of us who just complain on message boards, he took action for what he believed in, meaning his life has more meaning that all those who just stay quiet and do nothing.  

What's interesting is that once you realize that there are no laws outside man's laws, you realize that there is no need to justify one's own beliefs.  They are your beliefs because you believe in them.  His action is what justifies it, for his action is what set it in stone.  

I don't see anything wrong with what he did.  He didn't know any better to do anything with more results and he wasn't going to sit around and wait to think of something.

Maybe we all should have shot up our schools.  Maybe the mass killing would have opened some eyes.  Maybe not though.  I guess we'll all get old now.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Late on November 11, 2007, 12:23:28 PM
Well, living here and seeing the media coverage for the incident. Personally, I saw he had some good points in his "final statement" but on the other hand it was a dramatic suicide played out by an unhappy teen (many people will probably disagree with me here but he seemed to pass judgment on things he had no knowldege about) and the problem is, because of his violent "going out" I can't see that (my society) will discuss the topics at hand (that he addressed) in  a constructive manner but they (the powers that be, that is) will have a tendency to focus on stuff that tries to uphold the status quo.

 
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: detrath on November 11, 2007, 12:51:48 PM
"Well I said you may or may not agree with his goal.  the point is, unlike the rest of us who just complain on message boards, he took action for what he believed in, meaning his life has more meaning that all those who just stay quiet and do nothing."

Does a person who acts on their beliefs inherently have more meaning to their life than a person who does not do so? A proud capitalist-oriented man who believes only in the value of the dollar will act on that belief to destroy a forest. Does his life have more meaning than someone who is not so destructive (whatever precisely meaning means)? If for a life to have meaning, it means something like "made an impact on reality", then all the selfish destructive acts are just as meaningful as valuable constructive ones. Perhaps this is what you mean by meaning, but if that is the case, it is a poor criteria to judge the value of an action, for it inherently ignores the value of an action, and I think we need to decide what is valuable and not ignore it. Meaning in the sense of impact alone is not going to be enough.

"What's interesting is that once you realize that there are no laws outside man's laws, you realize that there is no need to justify one's own beliefs.  They are your beliefs because you believe in them.  His action is what justifies it, for his action is what set it in stone."

So you're saying my beliefs do not need to be justified in some abstract way because there are no laws that govern what beliefs I will or wont have. I can hold whatever beliefs I want. You emphasize that you mean something like this when you emphasize that the beliefs are possessed, "they are your beliefs because you believe in them". You then seem to believe that a belief is justified if it can be put into action. So a justified belief is one that has been put into action.

This seems to be a path to ignoring reality. Think about beliefs about what action should be taken. If I believe the way to put out a fire is to throw gasoline on it, that belief will be justified as true or corresponding to reality or however you want to talk about it based on the fact that I throw gasoline on the fire. It seems very strange to say this, that that belief was justified because I acted on it. It seems like my belief would be justified if I had a reason for holding it, if it was verified somehow. The contents of what I believed turn out to be false, afterall. The gasoline just makes the fire worse.

So it's true that we can believe whatever we want (in some free or unfree sense of want), and that they are -our- beliefs because we are the ones believing them, but the jump to the belief itself being justified (which is inherently going to have something to do with getting onto reality or truth or something like that) because it was followed through seems a bit crazy. Not all beliefs are equal. Not all beliefs are equally justified, that is, not all beliefs get onto reality equally.

"I don't see anything wrong with what he did.  He didn't know any better to do anything with more results and he wasn't going to sit around and wait to think of something."

I live in the forest and there are wolves about. I need to build a fence to keep them out. There are many sensible paths to building a fence. Unfortunately, I don't know what they are. In fact, I'm entirely ignorant of the fence option. I only know that I hate (and fear) the wolves and the consequences they bring about, so I attack them and am promptly devoured afterward. I wasn't going to sit around and wait to think of something. I wasn't patient enough to think the situation through.

Ignorance and impatient lazy thinking does not make my poor choice of action any less poor, even if I was somehow destined or determined to make that poor choice.

"Maybe we all should have shot up our schools.  Maybe the mass killing would have opened some eyes.  Maybe not though.  I guess we'll all get old now. "

This is only sensible based on your erroneous assumption about the equality of how close to reality all beliefs get.

The answer to inaction is not action for its own sake, action at any price. Action alone should not be so dogmatically pursued.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 11, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
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Does a person who acts on their beliefs inherently have more meaning to their life than a person who does not do so?


The question is apt, but for what circumstance? Does meaning exist only in the individual? If not, wouldn't accomplishing something be more meaningful? And if meaning exists only in the individual, what's to say that masturbating all day while watching TV isn't the highest state of humankind?

It has no beauty to it, that way, the life thing.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: buckets_of_rain on November 13, 2007, 07:56:38 AM
Yeah, what is the meaning of living a normal life and doing nothing?  Everyone does that.  ANYTHING has more meaning than that.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 13, 2007, 08:01:43 AM
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Yeah, what is the meaning of living a normal life and doing nothing?  Everyone does that.  ANYTHING has more meaning than that.


You don't have to kill other people and yourself to be meaningful. Life isn't meant to be meaningful, there is no actual purpose behind life (unless you have that of a religious belief). Therefore, anything you do is going to be meaningless. You might as well live your life happily and not kill others and then yourself like a coward wishing you were making a difference in a world that has an inevitable end.

Welcome to the ultimate reality.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Svmmoned on November 13, 2007, 10:39:51 AM
Interesting fact: They have in Finland very liberal law in case of gun possession, but there wasn't many gun related crimes, while in some other countries it would result in war zone (OMG! it seems that we're all not the same or equall!). It's proof that nationalism and isolation (of course in comparison to all those countries "open" for all shit) really works there. The result is peaceful and quite healthy nation (again in comparison to others).

Enter globalization, modern values, internet, corruption, "angry" music etc.
Isn't that a irony that he post all that stuff on the internet?
I doubt that Finish society really gave him so many reasons to "hate". When he say: I hate, I think: victim of those who he assuming to hate.
It was rather fault of being "global teen", which gave him information about corruption of the rest of the world which he may never experienced within his own nation or other social group he lived on. Does he should care about rest of the world (of course if "world" doesn't invade his society/ nation)?

His reasons wasn't sufficient but at least he wasn't passive.
He wasn't all that conscious and accuracy of his beliefs was rather coincidental.
He wasn't any "natural selector" or response to society's illnes, he was product of that illnes. On opposite pole of the same ball of shit.
He gave bad picture of people who are against society's values, and also that who has interest in history or philosophy if this is only action that such people can undertake. And society is too dumb to catch the message that he (could, but not necessarily) had for them...

I'm not shocked or surprised by his actions, and I don't have compassion for his victims or their families.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 13, 2007, 10:55:43 AM
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I don't have compassion for his victims or their families.


Would you not have compassion for your family and friends if you were the killed victim of an extremist whose belief completely contradicted itself.

If you were killed in an accident like this would you consider (assuming you could still contain a conscience) your life a worthy sacrifice? Would you really make the statement (once again, hypothetically speaking IF you could) "My life was wasted for a good reason and I have no sympathy for my family and friends who are mourning for me at this very moment?"
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Svmmoned on November 13, 2007, 11:59:13 AM
If I would wrote that I feel something for them that would be a lie. Because in so huge society or in this case on mankind scale they are only abstraction for me. You trapped yourself with your question, because as you can see even you need to drag that situation on more personal, if not egoistic field (me, my friends, family) to trully feel something. Of course I can imagine their suffering but only when I look on that from personal point of view (what if that going to happen to me, my family, friends). Other than that it's still abstraction.

And of course I wouldn't sacrifice myself or any people close to me to such stupid case. But where in my previous post did you read that I consider his action as something worthy? He didn't achieve nothing besides media attention.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 13, 2007, 02:39:05 PM
This dude would not have killed anyone who was not a total fucking tool.

Most school shooters pick their victims. Klebold and Harris did, and I'm sure Auvinen would have.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 17, 2007, 08:15:15 PM
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If I would wrote that I feel something for them that would be a lie. Because in so huge society or in this case on mankind scale they are only abstraction for me. You trapped yourself with your question, because as you can see even you need to drag that situation on more personal, if not egoistic field (me, my friends, family) to trully feel something. Of course I can imagine their suffering but only when I look on that from personal point of view (what if that going to happen to me, my family, friends). Other than that it's still abstraction.


Of all western nations the USA is the only one with a gun problem, even so in many of the other western nations they are liberal on gun control. Finland is not the only place in this regard.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 18, 2007, 03:37:06 AM
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Of all western nations the USA is the only one with a gun problem, even so in many of the other western nations they are liberal on gun control. Finland is not the only place in this regard.


USA is also the most multicultural, and the most driven by economy (highest worker productivity). Before we blame guns, which are a nice thing to have when idiots try to take your stuff and hurt your family, let's consider the other possibilities. I'd rather not get political here, but to say that the USA's problem is guns is to completely ignore the reality of a dying empire, which is that it has more problems than healths.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Mithrandir on November 18, 2007, 12:00:52 PM
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USA is also the most multicultural, and the most driven by economy (highest worker productivity). Before we blame guns, which are a nice thing to have when idiots try to take your stuff and hurt your family, let's consider the other possibilities. I'd rather not get political here, but to say that the USA's problem is guns is to completely ignore the reality of a dying empire, which is that it has more problems than healths.


When was the USA ever an empire? It simply rose to prominence by the sheer luck of fools who thought they can have a "better life" by migrating rather than trying to fix the problems in their own countries, who then created more meaningless/plastic shit, and this lasted less than 150 years before the country hit the shitter.

Summoned: if you read this: http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/American.html

you'll see that there's no such thing as an "isolated" developed country. Multiculturalism is everywhere, and possibly those who complain the most about it are the ones who can least live without it.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Dunkelheit on November 18, 2007, 12:41:28 PM
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you'll see that there's no such thing as an "isolated" developed country. Multiculturalism is everywhere, and possibly those who complain the most about it are the ones who can least live without it.


There's a difference between a nation having relations with its neighbors (whether they be diplomatic, economic, or what have you) and forcing multiple cultures to coexist within the same state. The world should be multicultural, single nations shouldn't.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 18, 2007, 06:01:44 PM
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you'll see that there's no such thing as an "isolated" developed country. Multiculturalism is everywhere, and possibly those who complain the most about it are the ones who can least live without it.


Logical fallacy: nations that developed in isolation are now multicultural, which is what we're arguing against.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Svmmoned on November 19, 2007, 11:14:13 AM
Quote

Of all western nations the USA is the only one with a gun problem, even so in many of the other western nations they are liberal on gun control. Finland is not the only place in this regard.


Yeah, but I was refering rather to those countries, where gun possession is still a rarity. Because of many law difficulties to get concession, lack of (legal) distribution or simple because of mentality of citizens. And I think that in some places it simply won't work. Same with drugs - I believe that in some countries there is no need to be so restrictive while in others being restrictive is a must to avoid anarchy.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 19, 2007, 11:33:13 AM
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Yeah, but I was refering rather to those countries, where gun possession is still a rarity. Because of many law difficulties to get concession, lack of (legal) distribution or simple because of mentality of citizens. And I think that in some places it simply won't work. Same with drugs - I believe that in some countries there is no need to be so restrictive while in others being restrictive is a must to avoid anarchy.


I happen to live in a country where you would probably go your entire life without ever seeing a real gun, let alone hold, shoot or own any. Probably why me and the people I know cannot comprehend  American culture.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Svmmoned on November 19, 2007, 11:42:07 AM
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Summoned: if you read this: http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/American.html

you'll see that there's no such thing as an "isolated" developed country. Multiculturalism is everywhere, and possibly those who complain the most about it are the ones who can least live without it.


I was familiar with some variation of this text. Every country is now connected with others on some plain. But I wrote isolated in comparison to some countries open to all shit (France for example). Not isolated totally or physically. Is there was ANY social group in history that was self-sufficient and not obtain some goods through trade with others? But is it enough to call such group multicultural?
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 19, 2007, 04:28:07 PM
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Is there was ANY social group in history that was self-sufficient and not obtain some goods through trade with others? But is it enough to call such group multicultural?


Even more, people are taking the whole of a group's history and assuming that since in the last years of its life, it traded extensively, that was the secret to its success. Amy Chua makes the same mistake in her new book.

The Greeks were healthiest, as Plato observed, before they began overseas trade. And the Hyperboreans, who did they trade with?
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Heydrich on November 19, 2007, 08:56:35 PM
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I happen to live in a country where you would probably go your entire life without ever seeing a real gun, let alone hold, shoot or own any. Probably why me and the people I know cannot comprehend  American culture.


What about firearm ownership exactly do you find so incomprehensible? Virtually everyone I know owns a firearm - some own many. We hunt, shoot competitively, recreationally, some are collectors.
None are murderers or criminals.
Rural and semi-rural (ie. largely-to entirely white)America is overhwelmingly where most of the firearms are actually owned and possessed and are almost statistically devoid of so-called "gun-crime" and are every bit is "safe" as any non-gun owning nation.

America's crime/violence issues are entirely the result of our failed urban pestholes and typical pluralistic social decay. They may indeed employ the firearm in their shenanigans...but that is simply a tool of their ignoble trade.



Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 23, 2007, 04:16:53 AM
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America's crime/violence issues are entirely the result of our failed urban pestholes and typical pluralistic social decay. They may indeed employ the firearm in their shenanigans...but that is simply a tool of their ignoble trade.


Most crimes are committed with stolen guns, and most violent crimes don't involve guns.

Facts are helpful.

I believe if we have "freedom," we have the freedom to have weapons -- to defend ourselves against the "freedom" of others to rob, rape, beat, mangle, maim and torture.

It's also useful to know that most American crime is committed by minorities (http://www.amren.com/newstore/cart.php?page=color_of_crime). I attribute this to multiculturalism failing, not some inherent deficiency of minorities, esp. since there are a number of minority folk I'm quite fond of. But they're different, and even as I respect that, I realize it makes for an unstable society.

Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 23, 2007, 03:01:15 PM
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What about firearm ownership exactly do you find so incomprehensible? Virtually everyone I know owns a firearm - some own many. We hunt, shoot competitively, recreationally, some are collectors.
None are murderers or criminals.
Rural and semi-rural (ie. largely-to entirely white)America is overhwelmingly where most of the firearms are actually owned and possessed and are almost statistically devoid of so-called "gun-crime" and are every bit is "safe" as any non-gun owning nation.

America's crime/violence issues are entirely the result of our failed urban pestholes and typical pluralistic social decay. They may indeed employ the firearm in their shenanigans...but that is simply a tool of their ignoble trade.



Well in New Zealand no one owns guns, even the police do not carry any kind of firearm on them and the regular police force only have access to handguns and single firing rifles when they have to be taken from the station. When no one threatens you with a gun a gun is not required to defend yourself.  I cannot even recollect the last murder in New Zealand let alone the last murder with a firearm.

This reason I cant comprehend gun ownership to the extent of the Americans is because America is such an incredibly different nation. Me saying I cant understand gun ownership in America is like saying I cant understand why Muslims periodically starve themselves and sacrifice their best animals. The cultural differences are to great. Everyone I know who has traveled to the states often remark on how incredibly processed all their food is. And how expensive fresh meat and vegetables are. They always remark on how big meals are when going to restaurants and how many Macdonald's there are. America and New Zealand (which can to extents be compared with England) may be both industrial and western nations, but your culture is so different from mine that there will be many things about you that I wont understand until I live in the states.

After all im sure you don't understand the fact no one have firearms here and the hunting/sporting aspect of it is in an extreme minority.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 24, 2007, 05:57:13 AM
Geography is not my strong suit, but the USA as I recall is a lot larger than New Zealand. It's a different environment, and one with much more crime even without guns. We also don't trust our government because unlike New Zealand, we tend to play a large role in international politics.

For example the USA being a nuclear free zone would rapidly lead to Americans speaking Russian.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: beyond_godlike on November 24, 2007, 01:53:20 PM
You guys don't understand the point of firearms. Firearms are allowed so that if the government ever betrayed the people or became oppressive the people could revolt and replace the government with a better one. The government would always serve the people because the people would overthrow it if it didn't. Well, that was the original idea.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 24, 2007, 08:08:56 PM
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Geography is not my strong suit, but the USA as I recall is a lot larger than New Zealand. It's a different environment, and one with much more crime even without guns. We also don't trust our government because unlike New Zealand, we tend to play a large role in international politics.

For example the USA being a nuclear free zone would rapidly lead to Americans speaking Russian.


That is very true. The USA needs to defend itself as a country but does that mean its citizens need such a defense for themselves? This is an actual question rather then a rhetorical one because of my lack of familiarity with American culture.

Obviously its useless making guns illegal for citizens because all it does is prevent people from obtaining them in the first place and leaving them vulnerable to those who do have them. I think this might lead to more deaths making the bill redundant. At least the USA put restrictions on civilians buying fully automatic weapons, which serve absolutely no recreational purposes other then killing people.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Apocalyptic Raves on November 25, 2007, 09:42:34 PM
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You guys don't understand the point of firearms. Firearms are allowed so that if the government ever betrayed the people or became oppressive the people could revolt and replace the government with a better one. The government would always serve the people because the people would overthrow it if it didn't. Well, that was the original idea.


If that were the case then why aren't we rioting in the streets? Firearms are just efficient killing technology. If we ever tried to revolt against our government, they would have more people brandishing more firearms than us. Strong numbers don't stand a chance against strong weapons. That's why I can't go out and buy explosives, fully automatic weapons, etc. Buy the best guns that civilian money can buy and you still don't stand a fucking chance.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Heydrich on November 26, 2007, 03:49:59 AM
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At least the USA put restrictions on civilians buying fully automatic weapons, which serve absolutely no recreational purposes other then killing people.


Not entirely true sir. There are some "restrictions" on all firearm purchases and yes, even more stringent ones for select-fire/full-auto firearms. But fully automatic firearms can indeed be owned by American citizens - the real restrictions are at the State level. In other words, in some states one cannot own one at all - but in many, with the proper federal documentation one can. (Statistically, there is virtually no violent crime associated with the use of such weaponry, since the Fed. Firearms Act of 1939)

There are several large, annual recreational events geared toward owners of just these weapons, and any number of smaller competitions and gatherings. I suppose "recreation" is in the eye of the beholder.

I guess "our ways are not your ways"so to speak.
I was not actually aware that New Zealand was so devoid of firearms or any enthusiasm for them. Either way, just different ways of viewing the firearm I suppose.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 26, 2007, 04:41:59 AM
Well I guess those who would go through the trouble to obtain a fully automatic weapon in a state with reasonable restrictions is not very likely to kill another human being, far more likely for them to be a very big gun collector/enthusiast.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Heydrich on November 26, 2007, 06:28:21 AM
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Well I guess those who would go through the trouble to obtain a fully automatic weapon in a state with reasonable restrictions is not very likely to kill another human being, far more likely for them to be a very big gun collector/enthusiast.


Exactly!
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Niord666 on November 26, 2007, 06:08:34 PM
Using guns for recreational purposes is preposterous. If that is your only reason for buying firearms, why not purchase pistols that shoot pellets? Guns are primarily for defense but the wielder could use it for killing at his own risk.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 27, 2007, 03:48:33 AM
I wouldn't want to be the man who hunts dangerous pigs with a BB gun.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: Skjold on November 27, 2007, 10:12:49 PM
I find it curious that people who get outraged at allowing morons to vote don't mind these same halfwits carrying firearms.

I am personally glad that where I live has extremely tight gun control, if I piss off a drunk sub 90IQ aggressive half wit, the worst that can happen is he has a knife, and even that is unlikely.
Title: Re: School shooting in Finland
Post by: born for banning on November 29, 2007, 07:02:34 PM
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I find it curious that people who get outraged at allowing morons to vote don't mind these same halfwits carrying firearms.


The problem is that those halfwits will always be able to get their hands on some kind of weapon. Allowing the smart to be armed evens the score.