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Metal => Interzone => Topic started by: Humanicide on November 29, 2007, 06:16:59 AM

Title: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Humanicide on November 29, 2007, 06:16:59 AM
In the past few months, i have been delving into classical music. i have found that it shares many characteristics with metal, and its wonderful music to relax to.

i would just like to get some input from members here on their favorite symphonies/composers and what works i should get. as of now i only have works from Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach (hey cut me some slack im a beginner  :P).

so, any suggestions?
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: ......... on November 29, 2007, 07:27:59 AM
I'm in the process of discovering classical music myself. As you, I have mostly concerntrated on the works of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, but here are some other pieces that have made a great impression:

Edvard Grieg - Peer Gynt Suites, Piano Concerto in A Minor

Gustav Holst - The Planets (Sounds very "metal", especially Mars, the Bringer of War)

Franz Schubert - Winterreise, 5th Symphony, "Death and the maiden", "Rosamunde"

Antonio Vivaldi - The Four Seasons
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: More Celt Than Sassenach on November 29, 2007, 07:34:34 AM
You need to be specific about what you want, saying I want more classical music doesn't help much.

But since Fryden has already stated some mandatory pieces I might as well continue.

Bach - St John Passion, St Matthew Passion, The art of fugue

Beethoven - All his odd numbered symphonies, All of his piano sonatas

Handel - The messiah

Sibelius - Rondo of the waves, Finlandia, His violin concertos  

Tchaikovsky - Symphony No. 6

Baber - Adagio for strings, 1st two symphonies

Rachmaninov - A Window In Time (Cd made during his life of him performing his own piano pieces), All of his piano sonatas and his piano concerto's

Mozart - The Requiem mass
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: David_Ravel on November 29, 2007, 08:32:59 AM
I suggest you to always analyse the work that you discover, it can give you better appreciation. Always check out the orchestra and the director.

For begginer, all is said, but some other personnal favorite :

Franz Schubert - 8th Symhony (unfinished), Trout Quintet
Anton Bruckner - 4th Symphony
Paganini - 24 caprice
Wagner - Tristan and Iseult
Schuman - 4 symphony
Tchaikovsky - Manfred Symphony
Strawinsky - Le Sacre du Printemps
Listz - Bach transcription and Piano concerto (favorite being the first 2)

If you want more modern compositor, I suggest you Ligeti.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Humanicide on November 29, 2007, 09:15:50 AM
Quote
You need to be specific about what you want, saying I want more classical music doesn't help much.


well i did ask you gents which works you enjoyed a lot, and from there i had hoped to get opinions of what i should seek out.

to be more specific, i suppose, i have found that i enjoy the happier stylings as well as the more direct, and seemingly "heavier" stylings. so i guess what i am saying is that i have not yet heard a composer which i have not liked.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: dark_defender on November 29, 2007, 10:54:14 AM
there are some astounding works to be found in the french impressionists music. composers like Ravel, Debussy and Satie composed pieces with a rather serene daydream inducing affect. it is truely music to get lost in..
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chrstphrbnntt on November 29, 2007, 11:13:26 AM
Quote
If you want more modern compositor, I suggest you Ligeti.


+ Messian, Feldman, Nono, Reich, Gubaidulina, Partch... just throwing a few names out there to investigate.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: David_Ravel on November 29, 2007, 12:00:09 PM
Yeah sure those are great. But as far as I go, I always heard a more classical sound in Ligeti work, for structure and all, then the ambient influence of people like Reich. To me, it's a great ''transition'' for begginers.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Prospero on November 29, 2007, 03:14:22 PM
Sergei Prokofiev

I often introduce metal fans to classical music with Prokofiev's powerful compositions. The way he blends his restless Russian chorals into heroical melodies is breathtaking. I remember I uploaded some not so long ago...

Surprisingly no one mentioned Carl Orff, perhaps his Carmina Burana is too well known but still... Haven't seen Gustav Mahler either, his fifth has pretty much everything you can expect out of a symphony.

Yet, my favorite pieces (from the moment I heard them) are both featured in my last upload. Great pianist as well.

Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto #1/Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto #2 (http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/YaBB.cgi?board=mp3;action=display;num=1196050948)
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Dave on November 29, 2007, 04:43:50 PM
I would recommend Mahler (http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/YaBB.cgi?board=mp3;action=display;num=1186191728). He wrote massive symphonies (in terms of both length and orchestra size) that are some of the greatest and most emotional in the repertoire. Fortunately, someone uploaded all of his symphonies on here a while back. My personal favorite is the 5th, but you might want to start with the 4th, which is his most "normal" symphony.

Also, I would suggest getting a cheap box set with excerpts from many different pieces. Even if the performances are not the best, you can still find out what you might like. The first pieces I liked back when I only listened to metal were Grieg's piano concerto, Paganini's first violin concerto, and Debussy's La Mer.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chrstphrbnntt on November 29, 2007, 04:50:22 PM
Quote
Sergei Prokofiev

I often introduce metal fans to classical music with Prokofiev's powerful compositions. The way he blends his restless Russian chorals into heroical melodies is breathtaking. I remember I uploaded some not so long ago...



Seconding Prokofiev. I recommend violin concertos nos. 1 & 2, and piano concertos nos. 1, 4, and 5. Emphasis on violin concerto no. 1 and piano concerto no. 4. His symphonies, ballets, etc. are great too.

On the subject of Mahler: personally, I prefer the 7th. The 8th is the only one to be avoided.

I've never been able to get into Rachmaninov or Tchaikovsky beyond both composers' first piano concertos. Maybe I'm biased because three of my favorite composers -- Scriabin, Stravinsky and Prokofiev -- were active at the same time, and from the same country.

edit: Actually, I believe Prokofiev was born in Ukraine. One of the five was.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 29, 2007, 06:29:07 PM
I was going to say Gustav Holst, particularly The Planets but I see someone already covered that. So I'll second it. I've always had a strong attraction to Johann Sebastian Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor. I wouldn't consider it very metal, though good.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: born for banning on November 29, 2007, 06:53:32 PM
Actually...

Why bother with Prokofiev? I found him empty, along with many of the other classical pieces suggested.

To prep yourself, pick up some short classical pieces. I suggest ones from the Romantic era, including Brahms, Schumann.

Start with some Beethoven.

Move on to Debussy (everyone has afternoon of a faun), then some Bruckner (#7), maybe some Respighi.

Pick up a later symphony from Mozart.

Then try Brahms #4 and Schumann #1.

Go back to Bruckner; #5.

Taste some Bach.

Listen to the best, forget the rest. Trying to find classical that's like the mainstream music you've been hearing is a stupid quest. You don't want more of the same old shit, unless you're afraid. You want to taste the real difference classical makes.

Get a good conductor, avoid Bernstein and Solti and anyone born in the USA.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Goluf on November 29, 2007, 07:09:01 PM
Quote
Actually...


Get a good conductor, avoid Bernstein and Solti and anyone born in the USA.






This is bullshit. Solti's Wagner is intoxicating and ambitious, and Bernstein's Le Sacre is simply the best ever recorded. Every conductor has strong and weak points. Karajan's Le Sacre is horrific, and yet his Beethoven 9 is definitive. Know how to spot the best recordings of each conductor and avoid their failed ones, instead of relying on a "America sucks" compartmentalization.

Oh wait but they're J E W S! OMFGAH AVOID!

Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: born for banning on November 29, 2007, 07:10:28 PM
Quote
Solti's Wagner is intoxicating and ambitious, and Bernstein's Le Sacre is simply the best ever recorded.


I disagree. If you want simplistic renditions of great music, definitely try those conductors.

(http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2023704/gerber_Full.jpg)
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Beethoven on November 29, 2007, 07:21:23 PM
In the last year I've slowly gone from listening to 90% metal to at least 60% classical. The power and mastery of the greats can't be denied.

For beginners I would suggest what I did myself, which is listen to the 5th, 9th and piano sonatas by Beethoven, in my opinion the greatest musical works of all time. Maybe I'm biased because I play piano and play nothing but Beethoven piano sonatas lately but anyone with any kind of appreciation for music will dig Beethoven. I stress him because in his 32 sonatas the enjoyment and new interpretations are endless on each listen or playing. (sonatas to check out first are generally any of the named ones, particularily numbers "14 - moonlight" "17 - the tempest" "23 - appasionata" "8 - pathetique"

I agree that the Planets, Peer Gynt Suites and the Four Seasons are great places to start on the classical path, however, no one has mention Chopin.. (maybe because there seems to be more of a symphonic focus than Piano at ANUS) and he is definitely one of the greatest romantic composers. A beginner would likely most enjoy his Nocturnes and Etudes (check out the 4th first).
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: AttheGates1996 on November 29, 2007, 08:18:41 PM
Quote
In the last year I've slowly gone from listening to 90% metal to at least 60% classical. The power and mastery of the greats can't be denied.

For beginners I would suggest what I did myself, which is listen to the 5th, 9th and piano sonatas by Beethoven, in my opinion the greatest musical works of all time. Maybe I'm biased because I play piano and play nothing but Beethoven piano sonatas lately but anyone with any kind of appreciation for music will dig Beethoven. I stress him because in his 32 sonatas the enjoyment and new interpretations are endless on each listen or playing. (sonatas to check out first are generally any of the named ones, particularily numbers "14 - moonlight" "17 - the tempest" "23 - appasionata" "8 - pathetique"

I agree that the Planets, Peer Gynt Suites and the Four Seasons are great places to start on the classical path, however, no one has mention Chopin.. (maybe because there seems to be more of a symphonic focus than Piano at ANUS) and he is definitely one of the greatest romantic composers. A beginner would likely most enjoy his Nocturnes and Etudes (check out the 4th first).


I wish I had Beethoven's piano sonatas. Is there a possibility that you could upload them?
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chrstphrbnntt on November 30, 2007, 09:16:40 AM
Quote
In the last year I've slowly gone from listening to 90% metal to at least 60% classical. The power and mastery of the greats can't be denied.

For beginners I would suggest what I did myself, which is listen to the 5th, 9th and piano sonatas by Beethoven, in my opinion the greatest musical works of all time. Maybe I'm biased because I play piano and play nothing but Beethoven piano sonatas lately but anyone with any kind of appreciation for music will dig Beethoven. I stress him because in his 32 sonatas the enjoyment and new interpretations are endless on each listen or playing. (sonatas to check out first are generally any of the named ones, particularily numbers "14 - moonlight" "17 - the tempest" "23 - appasionata" "8 - pathetique"

I agree that the Planets, Peer Gynt Suites and the Four Seasons are great places to start on the classical path, however, no one has mention Chopin.. (maybe because there seems to be more of a symphonic focus than Piano at ANUS) and he is definitely one of the greatest romantic composers. A beginner would likely most enjoy his Nocturnes and Etudes (check out the 4th first).


Don't miss the last 5 or so piano sonatas. The 32nd and 28th in particular.

Also, it's worth it to check out Leopold Godowsky's Complete Studies on the Études of Chopin, recorded by Marc-André Hamelin. Speaking of mindbendingly complex piano music, I love Debussy's 12 Études for Piano (recorded by Mitsuko Uchida), and Charles-Valentin Alkan's Concerto for Solo Piano, recorded by Marc-André Hamelin.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Hulegur on November 30, 2007, 09:54:56 AM
any or all of Béla Bartók.

Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Prospero on November 30, 2007, 03:41:19 PM
Quote
Actually...

Why bother with Prokofiev? I found him empty, along with many of the other classical pieces suggested.


I agree with you since it is the communist government who requested Prokofiev to make music about great Russian heroes (Nevski, Ivan the Terrible). But still, I think that Claudio Abaddo gave Alexander Nevski the intensity it deserved. You should have a listen (mvt. 5 especially).

Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chrstphrbnntt on November 30, 2007, 07:49:24 PM
Some more favorites:
Henry Brant - Music for Massed Flutes
George Antheil - Ballet Mécanique
Charles Ives - Symphony No. 4
Olivier Messiaen - Quartet for the End of Time
Harry Partch - Delusion of the Fury
Gilbert & Sulliivan - H.M.S. Pinafore [size=10](take it seriously.)[/size]
Hildegard von Bingen - A Feather on the Breath of God
Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina - Anything [size=10](along with Hildegard, my favorite of the Renaissance)[/size]
Karol Szymanowski - Sabat Mater for Solo Voices, Chorus & Orchestra
Gustav Mahler - Symphony No. 7

My favorite composers are pretty standard: Bach, Schumann, Bruckner, Beethoven, Chopin. However, it's a mistake to ignore lesser-known and/or more experimental works. You're cheating yourself if you do. Not that I'm telling you to dive head-first into Xenakis, Lévinas, Penderecki, et cetera all at once -- explore the obscure / avant-garde after you already have a very solid footing.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Humanicide on December 03, 2007, 03:46:06 AM
Thank you all so much for your input, i have a lot of listening to do! :)

one more question, i do know that this forum has an audiofile section, which contains some classical albums, but where do you guys get your classical cds (if you choose to buy them)?

i was thinking perhaps eBay or half.com, but then it occurred to me that some of these works have been conducted by various people. so i think im going to have to try before i buy, via the audiofile forum.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: David_Ravel on December 03, 2007, 05:39:30 AM
Amazon is good as far as I know, because it gives you alot of choice. But the price is generally high. Maybe someone know the same type of internet website but with a lower price, I don't know myself.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: -H418ov21.C on December 03, 2007, 06:33:42 AM
Quote
so i think im going to have to try before i buy, via the audiofile forum.


If your town is large enough you'll probably have an audio library to check out and borrow classical CDs. If not, then check interpretations through the Internet as you suggested.

Try to identify the conductors you like ; it will help you in the future. Keep in mind that a conductor might master a particular repertoire or composer, but might be awful conducting the rest ; and use that to your advantage when searching for CDs.

I'll post some tips/links later.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Beethoven on December 03, 2007, 07:44:00 PM
Quote

I wish I had Beethoven's piano sonatas. Is there a possibility that you could upload them?


Instead of uploading something as large as this (10+ hours at lossless), people should use Bittorrent, it'll download faster and easier than megaupload fragments. If the torrent isn't seeding give me a PM and I'll reseed it. If you have no clue what I'm talking about look up bittorrent on any internet souce.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Dunkelheit on December 03, 2007, 08:51:05 PM
It might not be a bad idea to create a torrent tracker for ANUS. Megaupload and Rapidshare aren't quite the best ways to distribute mp3's and flac's, as they require membership to remove bandwidth limits and links tend to die.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Pathologist on December 04, 2007, 05:54:14 AM
Quote
i have been delving into classical music. i have found that it shares many characteristics with metal, and its wonderful music to relax to.


One shouldn't look to classical to find metallic aspects; one needs to look to metal to find classical elements. Classical was before Metal, and it is the basis of all music. It is great of you to undertake the task of listening to this eternal music as it will awaken you from the limits of contemporary listening. Now for my recommendations:

Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Handel are all essentials. Contrapuntal stuff is vital. You may also want to hear some Scarlatti, Vivaldi, and Purcell;  as long as you have an ear for 17th and 18th century music.
After that, move to the romantics starting with Weber, Lizst, Chopin, Schumman, Brahms, Wagner.
A bit of advice when listening to Bruckner; first listen to the First Symphony then move on. His music is very difficult to digest.
Also, advice for listening to Mahler: listen to his first Four Symphonies or the Wunderhorn series. These set the basis for his composition style.
Of course, I'm not saying avoid all of the other pieces, but for starters...
And get a book on Music Appreciation. Get a bit of perspective first.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Humanicide on December 04, 2007, 06:42:29 AM
Quote

One shouldn't look to classical to find metallic aspects; one needs to look to metal to find classical elements. Classical was before Metal, and it is the basis of all music. It is great of you to undertake the task of listening to this eternal music as it will awaken you from the limits of contemporary listening. Now for my recommendations:

Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Handel are all essentials. Contrapuntal stuff is vital. You may also want to hear some Scarlatti, Vivaldi, and Purcell;  as long as you have an ear for 17th and 18th century music.
After that, move to the romantics starting with Weber, Lizst, Chopin, Schumman, Brahms, Wagner.
A bit of advice when listening to Bruckner; first listen to the First Symphony then move on. His music is very difficult to digest.
Also, advice for listening to Mahler: listen to his first Four Symphonies or the Wunderhorn series. These set the basis for his composition style.
Of course, I'm not saying avoid all of the other pieces, but for starters...
And get a book on Music Appreciation. Get a bit of perspective first.


i wasnt LOOKING to find things in common with metal, i simply stated that it happened to share several characteristics with it, and i was pleasantly suprised. perhaps you misunderstood me.

but thank you for your recommendations. i have Wagner, Mozart, and Beethoven already. i will certainly give those other composers a listen.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Humanicide on December 04, 2007, 06:49:33 AM
Quote
Sergei Prokofiev

I often introduce metal fans to classical music with Prokofiev's powerful compositions. The way he blends his restless Russian chorals into heroical melodies is breathtaking. I remember I uploaded some not so long ago...

Surprisingly no one mentioned Carl Orff, perhaps his Carmina Burana is too well known but still... Haven't seen Gustav Mahler either, his fifth has pretty much everything you can expect out of a symphony.

Yet, my favorite pieces (from the moment I heard them) are both featured in my last upload. Great pianist as well.

Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto #1/Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto #2 (http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/YaBB.cgi?board=mp3;action=display;num=1196050948)



thank you Dr. Growl, i really enjoyed Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto. havent gotten around to listening to Rachmaninoff yet, but i will soon.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chyll on December 04, 2007, 06:50:24 AM
I would recommend Leos Janacek's 'Sinfonietta' and 'Glagolitic Mass' above all else if you are absolutely new to classical music but well grounded in metal. Both sound metallic and somewhat bombastic, and the latter is actually a pagan hymn to natural archetypes in a liturgical guise.

Of course, lots of Bach and Beethoven will also do the trick.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chrstphrbnntt on December 04, 2007, 01:00:52 PM
Quote
It might not be a bad idea to create a torrent tracker for ANUS. Megaupload and Rapidshare aren't quite the best ways to distribute mp3's and flac's, as they require membership to remove bandwidth limits and links tend to die.


TBSource makes it easy, too.

However, I think this was brought up earlier, and it was stated that ANUS didn't want to depend on people to seed shit in order to make it possible to download. I still don't understand why people don't just use divshare instead of megaupload / rapidshare... maybe a little slower, but links almost never die and there's not bandwidth cap.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Pathologist on December 05, 2007, 05:57:04 AM
Quote

Surprisingly no one mentioned Carl Orff, perhaps his Carmina Burana is too well known but still...


I actually had the pleasure of performing Carmina Burana a week ago. Amazing piece but not necessarily "metal". While it is romantic when it comes to tonality, Orff really based the piece on old medieval and Renaissance music. It is a very humanistic piece (probably not in the modern "humanist" sense); it has lots of emotion and power to it.
Btw, no one's mentioned Paul Hindemith nor Dmitri Shostakovitch.      
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: aerator on December 05, 2007, 07:27:43 AM
This thread is proof of why metalheads fail at everything they try.

Stop trying to mention some obscure composer so to make yourself sound more profound. That is hipster behavior.

Start with Beethoven or Mozart, and find out how to appreciate those before trying the weird or third-tier.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: chrstphrbnntt on December 05, 2007, 02:43:07 PM
Quote
This thread is proof of why metalheads fail at everything they try.

Stop trying to mention some obscure composer so to make yourself sound more profound. That is hipster behavior.

Start with Beethoven or Mozart, and find out how to appreciate those before trying the weird or third-tier.


The only composer I mentioned that is actually obscure is Henry Brant; I specifically stated not to try to delve into esoterica until he's already explored all of the more popular composers. Is it really necessary to be such a dick at every possible opportunity? Perhaps if I said something like "fuck the canon, try these names." your response would be warranted.

(I interpreted your post as directed specifically at me; if it wasn't, I apologize.)
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Humanicide on December 05, 2007, 03:20:11 PM
perhaps they recommended me the particular composer because, i dont know....they LIKE THEIR MUSIC?

thats really what i asked for, opinions of others, being that many on this site have much more knowledge than i do.

i thank you for your contribution, aerator, but there is no need for such remarks.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: AttheGates1996 on December 05, 2007, 04:06:37 PM
I've always liked Antonin Dvorak's Symphony No. 9 Allegro con Fuoco. It's the only thing I had by him until other pieces were just recently posted by him. I would definitely suggest Dvorak's Slavonic Dances and Symphony No. 9.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Prospero on December 05, 2007, 04:32:10 PM
Quote
This thread is proof of why metalheads fail at everything they try.

Stop trying to mention some obscure composer so to make yourself sound more profound. That is hipster behavior.

Start with Beethoven or Mozart, and find out how to appreciate those before trying the weird or third-tier.


Perhaps you are too afraid of being a 'hipster' yourself so you see everybody else as one and confine yourself to Beethoven and Mozart (which is not that bad but still).

Why is it a hipster behaviour, explain yourself clearly.
Title: Re: Tips for a classical newbie
Post by: Thamuz on December 05, 2007, 07:38:49 PM
Quote
This thread is proof of why metalheads fail at everything they try.

Stop trying to mention some obscure composer so to make yourself sound more profound. That is hipster behavior.

Start with Beethoven or Mozart, and find out how to appreciate those before trying the weird or third-tier.

There is nothing obscure about anything in this thread.

Settle down, brah... this isn't one of those places where your razor sharp 'put downs' are necessary.