100% Metal Forum (Death Metal and Black Metal)

Metal => Metal => Topic started by: Conservationist on January 14, 2010, 02:25:36 PM

Title: Indian classical and Carnatic music
Post by: Conservationist on January 14, 2010, 02:25:36 PM
http://www.last.fm/group/Indian+classical

I'm learning more about this. It's like halfway between really technical baroque (Bach) and really technical German or Swedish folk (Vaesen).

I don't like the tropical drums but the rest is awesome.

Do we have any experts here who can help? I feel like an idiot knowing only a little more than "Ravi Shankar kicks ass" (I'm still not listening to Norah Jones though).

(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_04/norahjonesDM3008_468x550.jpg)
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Muaddib on January 14, 2010, 03:26:08 PM
I've recently downloaded a very interesting collectiotn through this torrent http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/15769103/indian+classical?tab=summary
I really liked G.S. Sachdev, makes me want to read the Gita all day long. It takes a lot of getting used to its sounds and phonological jargon, so I'm still only exploring his works. When I'm through it I'll move on to other stuff off that collection.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: adramalech on January 15, 2010, 02:55:38 AM
http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/world/raga/intro1.html

This link is an introduction to ragas, frameworks for melody and composition, which allow for indian classical music composers to be very dynamic and improvisational in their work. An interesting facet of ragas is the division of the day into Prahars or time periods at which a certain raga is best suited to be heard, in order to "colour" the mind of the listener most effectively. The concept of ragas is over two millenia old, and I believe is the basis of all music.

Ragas are very powerful and among the legends about singers such as Tansen ( 16th century A.D.) are stories of his bringing down the rains with Raga Megh Malhar ("Giver of Rain")and starting fires with the legendary raga Deepak ("Light")

Norah Jones has nothing to do with indian classical music. The beauty of indian classical music is that it is like watching an artist at work (dynamic flow of composing within a raag) rather than seeing just the final product (composition) which is why I think it is superior to Western CLassical.

eg, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hveeMDC6Dro&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwE-G0CFgtg&feature=related

Both maestros are playing a raag called Raag Malkauns, best suited to be heard after midnight. What they are playing is improvisation. It is like watching a sculpter sculpt or a potter shaping wet mud into a pot. A continuum, just like nature.

Also it would be better to look at not the technicality of the music but rather the spirit and philosophy of the cultures. According to me, Western Classical tries to build immense, magnificent structures , whereas Indian Classical is more zen in its approach, it flows with the universe, and celebrates it more than anything.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: HessianObscura on January 15, 2010, 03:24:38 AM
I often hear congruences between the application of 'tropical drums' (tabla) within Indian Classical music and Death/Black Metal like early Deicide or Mayhem. You could even imagine that the authentic Celtic rhythms Graveland utilize is a kind of intermediary between the tribal sound + high-'bpm' sound that tabla players can achieve, which are the most 'Metal' elements. (I'm sure, as with other elements of Celtic folk music - from the melodies to the use of drone - that these drumming traditions converge at some point in the past).

In addition to the names already recommended above, I found paying close attention to the work of flautist Hariprasad Chaurasia to be very fruitful in coming to understand the melodicism of Indian Classical music, which can be quite difficult to pick up from the kaleidescopic form of a raag, with all the other instrumental interfaces going on.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: DeathDealer on January 15, 2010, 07:01:03 AM
With early European music holding most of my attention for the past year, I haven't delved into this music yet.

This site surveys both genres of Indian Classical music, Hindustani (North India) and Carnatic (South India), and suggests some recordings:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/india.html

Some fingerwork has produced the following suggested introductory recordings. Hopefully, the links are still good; I'd like to check these out this weekend.

Carnatic - http://differentwaters.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html
India: Une Anthologie de la Musique Classique de l'Inde du Sud - "The best general primer for the vocal and instrumental music of South India."

Hindustani - http://onurlar.blogspot.com/2009/04/survey-of-74-hindustani-ragas.html

Happy listening!
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: nous on January 15, 2010, 11:59:43 AM
http://www.archive.org/stream/danceofsivafourt01coomuoft#page/72/mode/2up

It's an introduction to Indian music. This one's from the book recently mentioned in another discussion, "The Dance of Siva".
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: adramalech on January 18, 2010, 09:17:14 AM
http://www.swarganga.org/raagabase.php

An excellent website that has a thorough database of articles, artists, raags along with samples and other information about Indian classical music.
It also has information about events happening in India as well as the United States.

This should be quite helpful to almost everyone with an interest in Indian classical.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Prospero on January 19, 2010, 05:02:04 PM
That is Norah Jones? Indian? She is beautifully captured in this photograph anyway.

As for the serious discussion, I suggest you listen to Qawwali. Qawwali singer Rahat Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan recorded a self-tited album produced by Rick Rubin (Slayer). Qawwali is Sufi music and is mostly performed in Pakistan.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: istaros on January 19, 2010, 10:40:38 PM
Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan made a lot of cool music (I have two of his CDs), but it's worlds away from Indian classical... Of course, to our brutish Western ears a lot of very different shit from other cultures initially sounds the same ;)
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Monolith on January 26, 2010, 11:16:22 AM
If you want to listen to Carnatic Classical violinists, suggestions would be L. Subramaniam, T.N. Krishnan and Lalgudi Jayaraman for a start. L. Subramaniam has a lot of fusion and Western Classical projects too, so make sure you pick up his pure Carnatic Classical work.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Prospero on January 30, 2010, 10:24:54 PM
Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan made a lot of cool music (I have two of his CDs), but it's worlds away from Indian classical... Of course, to our brutish Western ears a lot of very different shit from other cultures initially sounds the same ;)

Excuse my brutish ear, must be due to too much Burzum.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: The Military on February 05, 2010, 07:16:01 AM
Despite being an Indian I don't care a damn about Indian classical music, I once heard just a seconds worth of ravi shankar's music. Given my temparement and view of life and having hardly listened to it, any given day a composer like wagner, beethoven, tchaikovksy would be preferred by me if I had to make a choice between listening to Indian and Western classical music. One may try looking for Shubha Mudgal's Underscore Records, ITC Sangeet Kala Academy, Kolkata, India Today/Living Media group's label Music Today, Late M.S.Subhalakshmi. Shubha is an Indian classical singer and so was Late M.S.Subhalakshmi
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Monolith on February 06, 2010, 06:52:06 AM
Despite being an Indian I don't care a damn about Indian classical music, I once heard just a seconds worth of ravi shankar's music. Given my temparement and view of life and having hardly listened to it, any given day a composer like wagner, beethoven, tchaikovksy would be preferred by me if I had to make a choice between listening to Indian and Western classical music. One may try looking for Shubha Mudgal's Underscore Records, ITC Sangeet Kala Academy, Kolkata, India Today/Living Media group's label Music Today, Late M.S.Subhalakshmi. Shubha is an Indian classical singer and so was Late M.S.Subhalakshmi

I think there are severe inconsistencies in your taste of classical music. Shubha Mudgal as a great classical singer? What are you kidding me? Your are recommending compilations by unprofessional rip off "record labels" like India Today magazine? Most of the great Indian Classical albums since the last 30 years have been released on HMV.

I do agree that M.S.Subbalakshmi is a great singer.

But I would like to mention L.Subramanian as a great introduction to Carnatic Classical music(violin, instrumental)

For more info, check http://www.carnaticcorner.com
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: roshan on February 06, 2010, 06:04:56 PM
I need some help. I absolutely love the sound of the sarod, and I REALLY like the following piece of music::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2OnBtNPTms

I've tried looking for Indian classical albums that are lively and sound "metal". However, pretty much all the albums I've found on the net have been awful, hipsterish nonsense where they try to sound spiritual and transcendental by being useless and playing one beat per minute (and yes, I've tried downloading stuff by several of the famous names). So far the genre to me just seems to be another form of technical masturbation designed to appeal to weird peace and harmony types who do yoga, listen to "world music" and practice wicca.

Can anyone recommend me some albums that might be more to my taste?
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Monolith on February 06, 2010, 08:52:57 PM
I need some help. I absolutely love the sound of the sarod, and I REALLY like the following piece of music::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2OnBtNPTms

I've tried looking for Indian classical albums that are lively and sound "metal". However, pretty much all the albums I've found on the net have been awful, hipsterish nonsense where they try to sound spiritual and transcendental by being useless and playing one beat per minute (and yes, I've tried downloading stuff by several of the famous names). So far the genre to me just seems to be another form of technical masturbation designed to appeal to weird peace and harmony types who do yoga, listen to "world music" and practice wicca.

Can anyone recommend me some albums that might be more to my taste?

If you like the sarod, then I would recommend http://www.sarod.com/ - Ustad Amjad Ali Khan's works.

If you like the violin, I recommend Lalgudi Jayaraman, T.N.Krishnan, L.Subramaniam and Chowdayyah.

If you like the Veena(Indian Lute), then I suggest Chitti Babu

You can also go thro this list, seems pretty good for starters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prominent_Carnatic_artists
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Monolith on February 08, 2010, 11:24:33 AM
Despite being an Indian I don't care a damn about Indian classical music, I once heard just a seconds worth of ravi shankar's music. Given my temparement and view of life and having hardly listened to it, any given day a composer like wagner, beethoven, tchaikovksy would be preferred by me if I had to make a choice between listening to Indian and Western classical music. One may try looking for Shubha Mudgal's Underscore Records, ITC Sangeet Kala Academy, Kolkata, India Today/Living Media group's label Music Today, Late M.S.Subhalakshmi. Shubha is an Indian classical singer and so was Late M.S.Subhalakshmi

I think there are severe inconsistencies in your taste of classical music. Shubha Mudgal as a great classical singer? What are you kidding me? Your are recommending compilations by unprofessional rip off "record labels" like India Today magazine? Most of the great Indian Classical albums since the last 30 years have been released on HMV.

I do agree that M.S.Subbalakshmi is a great singer.

But I would like to mention L.Subramanian as a great introduction to Carnatic Classical music(violin, instrumental)

For more info, check http://www.carnaticcorner.com
 I DON'T NEE D A JUDGEMENT ON MY MUSICAL TASTES AND ME FROM YOU, BACK OFF. Secondly I never said Shubha Mudgal is a great classical singer, if you think otherwise THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM NOT MINE. Read my post carefully WHICH YOU DIDN'T WHILE QUOTING ME I SAID INDIA TODAY/LIVING MEDIA GROUP'S LABEL MUSIC TODAY. IT'S YOU WHO IS KIDDING YOURSELF, Regarding the ripoffs and HMV thing that's your OPINION coz as you know I DON'T LISTEN TO INDIAN CLASSICAL MUSIC AND OBVIOUSLY DON'T BUY IT

As you have admitted that you don't listen to Indian classical music, so stop giving your opinions on it. Opinions can be formed only after careful listens and research.

Btw, are you an Indian staying in India or another country?
OPINIONS CAN DEFINITELY BE FORMED AND I DON'T NEED TO KNOW HOW TO GO ABOUT IT, SO MONOLITH SHUT UP I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR PREACHY BEHAVIOUR.  WITH EVERY POST OF YOURS YOU, MONOLITH, YES, YOU YOURSELF ARE GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO FORM AN IMAGE OF YOURSELF AS A HASTY AND CARELESS PERSON WHO DOESN'T READ PROPERLY, so when you preach to me and practise the hypocrisy of yours which is evident in your posts, you become the proverbial POT WHICH CALLS THE KETTLE BLACK. Regarding my nationality and where I live MIND YOUR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS MONOLITH

Opinions, like I stated earlier, ideally should be formed after you attain a good understanding of the music. Otherwise they are not very valid. I was attempting to point this out to you and you react by jumping up and down in impotent rage on your pogostick, howling all the while. What is the hypocrisy evident in my posts? Regarding your nationality, you already revealed it in your first post on this thread. Not that it matters, really.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Monolith on February 08, 2010, 11:29:52 AM
The beauty of indian classical music is that it is like watching an artist at work (dynamic flow of composing within a raag) rather than seeing just the final product (composition)
Also it would be better to look at not the technicality of the music but rather the spirit and philosophy of the cultures. ...Indian Classical is more zen in its approach, it flows with the universe, and celebrates it more than anything.

This I fully agree with.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Eleison on February 09, 2010, 04:32:32 AM
For a Western listener i think this is the best start to understanding Indian music holistically.

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Power-Sound-Influence-Consciousness/dp/0892813369/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265718645&sr=8-1

Also, Military and Monolith, please stop posting in this thread.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Prospero on February 20, 2010, 11:21:00 PM
The music of Rahul Sharma is often described as Indian classical. You can find it in the Audiofile section.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: fallot on February 21, 2011, 12:54:33 AM
Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan made a lot of cool music (I have two of his CDs), but it's worlds away from Indian classical... Of course, to our brutish Western ears a lot of very different shit from other cultures initially sounds the same ;)

That is not correct. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's music is not "worlds away" from Indian Classical. It is deeply, deeply intertwined with the preeminent genre of vocal Hindustani Classical music called Khyal. Not only can the roots of Khyal gayaki (singing) be traced to Qawwali (the late Nusrat's genre), Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan himself brought the concepts of modern Khyal back into Qawwali and by any reckoning turned it into a valid form of North Indian Classical. His performances are littered with exploration and development of Ragas - usually in the form of a Raag Mala: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raga_mala - Laykari (I don't know how to translate this), Sargam (a sort of scat I suppose that uses the indian solfege: Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni) and the vocal techniques and ornamentation that is characteristic of hindustani classical.

Beyond that, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan also performed pure Khyal as does the rest of his family. Here is a performance I like, it's nothing really special but both the leading musician and the accompanist (Nusrat and Tari Khan) are maestros and there are some playful antics I find enjoyable. Tari Khan is somewhat notorious for trying to break the rhythm of the performers he accompanies and Nusrat throws that right back at him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jC5jNjTlM. This is Khyal in a qawwali sort of style, but still unquestionably Khyal.

Here is another performance in a somewhat similar vein i.e. the "sangat" (forgive the lack of explanation, I can't think of an English term at the moment) of two great performers. Shivkumar Sharma is the foremost player of the santoor, a Kashmiri instrument that was unknown in classical before his lifetime and has no proponent today that matches his virtuosity. Zakir Hussain is probably the greatest tabla player of all time. This is a completely unrehearsed performance where the only set thing is the Raag (I think it's Raag Kirwani, unsure). The rhythm is determined by Shivkumar and Zakir must read and follow. He does far more than just that. Understanding this helps to appreciate what the audience is applauding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rG3Rpv78DA

Ali Akbar Khan has already been linked in this thread, here is a performance I enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobK_8bIDvk. The exposition and elaboration of the raag will be difficult to grasp but the Dadra (a kind of fixed composition in north indian classical) that he plays around the 7 min mark onwards should be enjoyable.

For examples of vocal music, here is an excellent performance by Ustad Rashid Khan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfvRoNLtiLA
Rashid Khan is my favorite proponent of vocal indian classical. He is probably the foremost performer of his generation. This is an example of Khyal in it's purest form. The Raag is Hansadhwani, a personal favorite of mine. The performance begins, as always, with an "alaap" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alap), following which the main theme is presented and expanded upon. After this is some sargam improvisation. The antara comes very late in the performance at the 7:44 mark. Some further sargam and some tihaais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihai) end the performance. Remember that this is improvisational, the only fixed things are the Raag, the rhythm (Teental: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintal in Drut Lay or Fast Tempo and Madham/Madhyalay or Medium Tempo).

A final link, Kaushiki Chakraborty singing a Thumri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumri) in Raag Khamaj: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpfp2MGamc8

I apologize for using some esoteric terminology. I have the barest familiarity with the language of western music. I'm sure Google can be of assistance. This is a somewhat rambling post but I would be glad to share my limited knowledge of hindustani classical if anyone has any questions.

Oh, about Ravi Shankar. He's good, he is responsible for exposing this music to a wider audience and as such is recognized for his great service. However, he is not great. I cannot seriously listen to his solo performances. His first wife on the other hand, Anapurna Devi, who plays the Surbahar is most certainly a genius. If you are interested in the Sitar, Ustad Vilayat Khan is a good start. He was a very traditional player and his recordings may help in the understanding of the rules of hindustani classical.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: nous on February 23, 2011, 04:50:57 AM
I would like to mention L.Subramaniam as a great introduction to Carnatic Classical music(violin, instrumental)

For more info, check http://www.carnaticcorner.com

Thank you for mentioning both the artist (I corrected his name in the quote) and the website; remain steadfast in the face of adversity!

If others want to know what kind of music we are talking about: Carnatic Classical: L Subramaniam - Violin (5 Albums) (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4344678/Carnatic_Classical__L_Subramaniam_-_Violin_(5_Albums))
Link is to a torrent tracker page.

I am beginning to really appreciate this kind of music. It takes some time, but there is genuine beauty to be discovered.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: AVFN on April 23, 2011, 04:05:58 AM
I adore what little Indian classical I've heard. There's a whole world of music there to be investigated and its terribly exciting.

I don't know much but I picked up a cd on holiday once, almost at random, and I would thoroughly recommend it for anyone interested in north indian vocals, Agra-Atrauli gharana in this case. The music accompaniment is more ambient/drone using tabla, harmonium and two tampuras. The lead vocalist is a lady named Lalith Rao and its her name on the cd, which is entitled Inde du Nord/North India - Raga Darbari Kanhada/Raga Desh. Its published by Ocora: Radio France.

Like I said, its very ambient and all of the dynamic is really in her voice. Also the tracks are all long, ranging from 9:19 to 27:47, so I doubt it will be for everyone but it very much suits my taste.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: aquarius on June 10, 2013, 05:26:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkPp6m0nvbc

Found this piece to be truly amazing, maybe even life-changing for me.

Any other hessians out there still exploring the classical music of India?

Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: trystero on June 10, 2013, 05:57:41 AM
Found this piece to be truly amazing, maybe even life-changing for me.

What's the raga? I can't identify it and there is nothing in the video or description. Thumris and dadras are great but the most accomplished musicians reserve peak, serious work for Khyal. I wish this weren't the case because khyal can turn into a completely musical exercise but to appreciate the true gravity of this music one needs to develop their listening towards khyal. It demands patience.

Hearing this on the radio was my first serious exposure to hindustani classical: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQhpLpiUoHw
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: aquarius on June 11, 2013, 09:30:03 PM
Found this piece to be truly amazing, maybe even life-changing for me.

What's the raga? I can't identify it and there is nothing in the video or description. Thumris and dadras are great but the most accomplished musicians reserve peak, serious work for Khyal. I wish this weren't the case because khyal can turn into a completely musical exercise but to appreciate the true gravity of this music one needs to develop their listening towards khyal. It demands patience.

Hearing this on the radio was my first serious exposure to hindustani classical: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQhpLpiUoHw

Not sure of the raga as the LP sleeve info only credits the piece as Dadra. She sings two other khayals on the recording (listed as raga desi todi and raga yaman). I find thumris evoke an intense emotion of yearning or longing, whereas Khayal is more hypnotic and dreamy like a third eye phasing in and out of focus.

Still learning the basics really  ;)

Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: DIVERGENTSERIES on June 27, 2013, 10:49:01 AM
I think a lot of emphasis from a western perspective is on high classical indian art.  I like some of this stuff, but to me a lot of it is wormy and dead and performed mostly by high horse riding purists interested in preserving their interpretation of something pure and I hear a lot of assholes try to pontificate about what constitute a trve raga in revivalist terms much like Wynton Marsalis does with jazz. 

Having said that, I am not an expert, but would definitely recommend ALSO checking out field recordings of street music/festivals in addition to the concert hall musicians (who are talented don't get me wrong) that were recommended:

INDIAN LOVE RITES on the Ethnic Folkways Records is a field recording of the Durga Puja in Calcutta.  It is amazing for the fact that it is a snapshot of something that should be witnessed live (not necessarily on religious terms).  It can be obtained for fairly cheap on vinyl.

INDIAN STREET MUSIC: THE BAULS OF BENGAL on the Explorer Series...street musicians in Bengal...fairly obvious...very overlooked and definitely worth the effort in procuring.  Lots of string/voice/drum microtonal bending.

MUSIC FROM THE SHRINES OF AJMER AND MUNDRA on the Lyrichord label is a compilation of field recordings taken from these holy sites where both Hindus and Muslims go to pay homage to Sufi saints.  Like the Indian Love Rites LP, don't expect high fidelity recordings but again, more of a ceremonial vibe.

ALSO...as far as Qawwalis, check the often overlooked Aziz Mian.  Completely unhinged and borderline insane...a grand wordsmith and genius.

Abida Parveen is also interesting...firstly she's a woman and secondly she interprets the work of poet Bulleh Shah whose work is interesting.

An interesting band to check out is Rudra from Singapore who interpolate Carnatic music into their death/black sound. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVvDOTxEb_Q - HYMNS FROM THE BLAZING CHARIOTS
---

Those are my picks...I'm no classical Hindustani afficianado, but I do like the low brow in the same way I'd rather listen to some old Bathory than these newfangled music conservatory black metal (like Krallice) any day of the week.

Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: trystero on September 23, 2013, 04:32:56 PM
I had to link this performance of Vilayat Khan playing Raga Darbari Kannada. A rivalry of sorts had been established in the media between Ravi Shankar and Vilayat Khan, though I am doubtful of its validity. I do not doubt however that Vilayat Khan would have held Ravi Shankar`s worth in rather low esteem. This is inevitable, as it is rather low quality compared to Vilayat Khan`s work, and despite its overwhelming virtuosity fails to produce something musically profound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0w_1cOCe8s
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: aquarius on September 25, 2013, 04:32:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdU_rlT_spc

  ... think I'd fall in love if a I weren't already
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: aquarius on February 01, 2014, 05:25:05 PM
Found this (http://www.amazon.com/Music-India-peggy-holroyde/dp/B002CSMQNC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391215746&sr=1-1) book to be of great use in helping to understand 'Indian classical music' from a western perspective. It's also worth noting that Hindustani and south Indian music are largely considered to be as distinct from each other as they are from western classical music.

Nah they share a lot, I dont know why you would say that. Carnatic music is much more streamlined as far as theory is concerned now though. Still, they operate on similar principles. Personally, I prefer hindustani music and hindustani performers, probably a bit of cultural bias at work there; more courtly/regal. I distrust western sources on indian music because often some of the greatest performers are just not engaged (language and exposure issues), and the ones that are do a lot of crap fusion-y and experimental stuff or are somewhat dishonest (fuck Ravi Shankar). It isnt difficult to understand or appreciate, a bit of experience is all that is required. Wikipedia is probably good enough to sort out any holes after that.

Interesting.

I’ve read that although they share the basic theoretical ‘framework’, and that to most foreign audiences they are probably indistinguishable anyway, they differ greatly in the approach to that framework. Hindustani music is more about evolution within improvisation whereas the Carnatic music values strict adherence to that framework and accuracy in the way it is executed.

The Carnatic music is also heavily entwined with Hindu religious traditions (exclusively vocal and dance based) as opposed to the Hindustani music, which, being historically less culturally isolated than the south, developed more so as an intellectual form of art for the philosopher kings. I would have to say, I find more enjoyment Hindustani music on the whole.

The views expressed in that book could be flawed for all I know, or perhaps these apparent divisions have changed in more recent times.

Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: Humanicide on February 02, 2014, 06:35:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdU_rlT_spc

  ... think I'd fall in love if a I weren't already

Her voice is just as beautiful as she is. Love this, thanks for linking.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: trystero on February 02, 2014, 07:05:16 PM
I suppose I could link dump a bit here, should all be easy to digest, no hour long khyal performances or anything like that:

aquarius you might like this, a thumri by a very accomplished female vocalist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8urYZ1MehE

This is part of an indian television classical music programme. Starts off with an explanation and introduction which is unfortunately in hindi. This kind of performance is called a jugalbandi, where two performers improvise with each other. Both vocalists are acclaimed greats, recommended, as are the related links (especially Darbari which is a very dark, very difficult raag, this is Shankara): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjdKws4vjOs

A Carnatic music link, a famous religious song, sung by M.S. Subbulakshmi. The raga is Bhairav which is similar to Shankara, the one in the previous link. Shankara can be considered to be derived from Bhairav. Linking this to demonstrate the similarity between carnatic and hindustani music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQHjNqbALB4

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BfnV0HiaVA <-- to drive it home a bit, another Shankara (just 2:31 worth) in hindustani style.
Title: Indian classical and Carnatic music
Post by: death metal black metal on February 03, 2014, 01:55:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4_4BVENstw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ow_4Dg3QEI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZy9zzpK4Vk
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: aquarius on February 03, 2014, 04:27:37 PM
Thankyou trystero, I am familiar with Kaushiki Chakrabarty. She is probably one of my favourites (and no, not just the pretty face!).

What would you recommend for Khayal. I have a recording of Rajan and Sajan Mishra and it is really something special. Deep meditation in the form of music. In the book that I mentioned, it is said that Khayal singers will generally 'warm-up' for several hours before the performance. The discipline required is phenomenal.

Also what is your opinion on Dhrupad? This is said to be even more formal and rigid than Khayal.
Title: Re: Indian classical and Carnatic music
Post by: aquarius on February 03, 2014, 04:36:49 PM
In Carnatic music, I really like Aruna Sayeeram and Nithyasree Mahadevan. Not really too familiar with much else though.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: trystero on February 03, 2014, 04:47:34 PM
Not a big fan of Dhrupad but I think thats because only the Mishra brothers really practice it. The structure of a general Khyal is a beginning portion of elaboration of the notes of the raga to be performed afterwards, without rhythmic accompaniment, generally in the form of what is called Aakaar (expressing notes using only the Aa vowel sound). This is followed by the lyrical portion of the raga, the bandish, the lyrics basically. Each syllable being deliberately chosen to correspond with an underlying note, in hindustani music generally written in the dialect of hindi/urdu called braj or brij basha. A fairly archaic language still spoken in a few villages in India.

The main portion begins usually in a slow portion, the vilambit portion, a lot of performers stay here for a good long time, giving Khyal its droning quality. This is followed by the medium rhythm portion, madhya lay, eventually ending in the fast drut lay.

Some great Khyal practicioners are Ustad Amir Khan, Ustad Rashid Khan, Pandit Bhimsen Joshi, Ustad Salamat Ali Khan, Pandit Jasraj (he can be a bit needlessly flashy), Bade ghulam Ali Khan (has a lot of more popular stuff, few recordings of serious music) and I suppose Ajay Chakraborty, Kaushiki`s father.

Instrumetal Khyal is broadly similar to the vocal style, but the use of instruments allows some aesthetic differences, the ability to elaborate some phrases that vocals cant. Overall the human voice can approximate more sound than any instrument, so it is favoured. I prefer the Sarod and Sitar.

During a Khyal performance the main vocalist is accompanied by a secondary instrument. This used to be mostly the sarangi, a grossly violin like instrument, but nowadays is increasingly the indian harmonium. A background drone in some notes of the raga is played by one or two tanpuras, large sitar like instruments which are played only by tuning them to the required raga and playing each string in succession repeatedly.
Title: Re: Indian classical music
Post by: trystero on February 03, 2014, 04:58:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HocTkz8-Lh0 (Edit: Fixed link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qR0x9Tu9zk
Title: Re: Indian classical and Carnatic music
Post by: aquarius on February 04, 2014, 06:51:23 PM
Thanks a lot trystero, that's given me a lot to work with. You really know your stuff.