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Messages - noirla

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 14, 2004, 03:33:19 AM »
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Sorry, you lose on that last point.  I'm not a devout hater of Velvet Cacoon like many here are (I see them as good, but not classic), but Krieg slaughters them.

Xasthur does suck, though.



Aside from the Patrick Bateman CD, what is innovative about Krieg in the slightest, other than ripping off early Finnish black grind bands?

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 13, 2004, 11:22:35 PM »
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Velvet Caccoon are not bad; they're also not memorable. Sometimes it's best to make great music before one attaches politics to it. It worked for Burzum.

I also have a hearty distrust for novelty instruments and stances. It's possible these guys were ELF buddies who eventually decided to make black metal; good for them, I guess. But in my view what they're really doing is adding thousands of CDs to the human landfill record.

For context, however, there have been only about five post-1998 black metal albums that have had any impact on me. The rest have recently been sold to Half Price Books at Kirby and Rice Blvd, if anyone wants them. I sure don't. Landfill.

Another way to say this: I prefer what is excellent. Mediocre is depressing. It hasn't occurred to many yet that the difference between today's black metal and that of the past is qualitative, not chronological.




How is their stance novelty unless trying to bring in new and intelligent thought to stale Satanic rhetoric novelty. The clip I saw of this band shows they were into ecoradicalism long before anyone in black metal made mention of it, including this very site.

And it amazes me that the admin for this site would talk negatively of Velvet Cacoon meanwhile feature interviews with bands like XASTHUR and KRIEG.

I would really like to hear how either of those two bands are doing something (musically or ideologically) which Velvet Cacoon isnt.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 13, 2004, 11:20:21 PM »
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Seems there's no helping postmodernists.

You attack the semantics that surround my point, interject useless relativisms as justification for your own, and totally evade my question: "how is this more important content-wise than anything done by Burzum (for instance)?" - not only this, but you seem to be under the impression that the music these trend-hopping camel jockeys create can somehow be arbitrarily and objectively judged independently of their other actions and statements; do you believe in free will, too? - not only this, but who gives a shit if they are legitimately connected with ELF?


You do, obviously, as you were calling into question the authenticity of this 'gimmick', suggesting that it might be some big hoax. Now that you have been disproven, you want to suddenly pretend you don't even care if it's real. You're putting on quite a show here.

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The fact that they require this label upon themselves and the music they create, and never fail to remind everyone of this connection, makes me wonder at what they're compensating for?


How do they 'require' this label upon their music? How is this seen as some great negative while bands like Burzum who touted an anti-christian then NS ideology completely fine? You're saying simply because the band has a stance (and -constantly- makes it known in their 2 whole interviews) that they are suddenly gimmicks, meanwhile bands who do an interview a week arent? Actually, looking on the Burzum site that guy has done dozens and dozens of interviews (if not hundreds). Now that would be never failing to spread ones views. You're quite desperate for a reason to dislike this band it seems.

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All this sideshow is, is surface aesthetic, with no content, designed to be abstract and ambient so that every dumbfuck can "get it" and feel like they understand it too, instead of being an attempt to actually create something of lasting value and worth; nope, all we get is a collage of recombinant riffs, novelty items to distract the eye, and drugged-up ideological individualism that only attracts more flies to the steaming shit pile.


There you go again calling it novely with no basis other than 'they made a weird guitar' and 'everyone on the internet likes them'. Until you decide to stop pretending you hate anything because others like it, you'll always lose these sorts of arguments (especially considering you aren't even presenting one).

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There is nothing here that won't be immediately forgotten in a years time, when the next BM trend rounds the bend.


I've been into this music since around 1988 and I've seen lots of bands come and go. This VC album (not sure about the previous ones, but this one in particular) will certainly stand out.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 13, 2004, 08:10:01 AM »
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They cannot solely be judged by their music alone, as they constantly parrot their ideological stance either a) through their rare interviews (again, driving up the media frenzy through hints and teasers) or b) through their obsessive fanboys


I think this just goes to show that my point is spot on. How can they 'constantly' parrot their views if their interviews are 'rare'? 2 interviews in 8 years = constantly parroting their views? I don't buy it. And again, their fanbase has zero affect on how I percieve the music. You are far too caught up in the goings on of the 'scene', which is polluting your senses. Focus on the art at hand, don't worry about fanboys.

By all means this band is certainly disliked by many which is understandable, but there are a few who see something special and original here. If the closest comparison you can find is Burzum and you write off their views as some gimmick or novelty ploy then that is your own agenda.

The guy from VC used to be Craig's right hand guy (Craig was the spokesperson for ELF around the time VC formed) and I've seen clips of them together, so as much as people want to call this a gimmick or marketing ploy I think that is pure hodgepodge with no factual basis, just random guesswork.

Either that, or VC decided 8 years ago to get involved with ELF so that they could go all this time just to release 1 album on FMP, do 2 interviews and call it quits.

Honestly, I think you're grabbing at whatever you can to use as an excuse.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 11, 2004, 08:08:32 PM »
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Not Sort Vokter, not even just a leeeetle bit?  Yeah the Demoncy connection is, uh,  more tangental...

Creativity/innovation/quality/whatever is more a matter of what they're playing than what device they're playing it on, and what VC's playing has just not floored me with its innovation.  They look good when you're stacking em up against other minimalist black metal bands, but in a larger context I don't think they're nearly that big of a deal.



No doubt Sort Vokter is great, but the sound is a little thin compared to the meaty/bulky sound of "Genevieve". I think "Dextronaut" is a very very close comparison to Sort Vokter, but not "Genevieve". That's just my opinion though.

As you said yourself, it's probably the best to come out in years, so that's gotta be worth something, especially considering their ideology is one that actually makes sense and isn't the same old "Hail bloody nuns raping the crucifix of Goatvalla" which every other band seems to be doing these days.

Their avoidance of the dime-a-dozen usbm circlejerk support squads is refreshing as well.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 11, 2004, 02:52:16 AM »
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Absolutely, I completely agree.  Btw, weren't you just praising this band up for their unique ideology and condemnation of Satanism 5 minutes ago?


I brought it up as a point of interest, but it certainly isn't going to make me like or dislike the band anymore. I judge a bands worth by their music first and foremost. That's just me though. I don't care if something I like has some big following on the internet. That sort of stuff has no direct effect on the music and how it affects me.

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I don't want to argue about what sounds trebly and what doesn't, but at the very least VC have a recognizably "black metal" guitar tone.  It's not that far out of left field.

I wouldn't peg VC for completely ripping off any particular band but I'm quite sure I've heard slow repetitive minimalist riffs + simple fast drumming on a black metal album before.   It's definitely "remotely close" to Darkthrone or Burzum or Sort Vokter or Demoncy ('Joined in Darkness'), not to say there aren't important differences just like those bands are different from each other.


Nobody advertises the sound as out of left field though. It seems, more or less, people get their hopes up and expect something they've created in their mind rather than settle for whats at hand. The guitar certainly has a unique sound, but I also think it's wise on the bands part to maintain that black metal sound as well. As for the Sort Vokter and Demoncy comparisons, I can't even comment.  :o  :-X

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 10, 2004, 11:15:27 PM »
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Well, you could turn that around.  Who praises this band without mentioning that they almost never do interviews, they have "alleged" ties to ELF, etc...

I'm listening to the album right now.  Saying that this is completely original and unique is sort of pushing it.  Maybe it's original and unique among other constantly blasting minimalist ambient black metal albums.  

If I hadn't read about it I never would've guessed that there was any complicated contraption behind the guitar sounds.  There are other bands that have gotten unique sounds without really odd set-ups, at least as far as I know.  It generally sounds like a trebly black metal guitar with some ambient effects (possibly keys) in the background.  


Yes, you could turn it all around, or you could do the logical thing and listen to the music for what it is, not worrying about what kind of cereal they were eating while recording.

I don't think this album is 'trebly' black metal in the least. If anything, it has a strong sense of bass which is lacking on most albums.


Is anyone here going to mention a comparison with justification? Or will inaccurate descriptions continue to flood this thread? ;) It's hard to take this unoriginal argument seriously when zero comparisons are being made, other than a very inaccurate Burzum comparison.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 10, 2004, 08:29:26 PM »
If all that is replied with is "gimmick and novelty"...

How is the band at fault for internet rumours and speculation? That seems senseless to find any reason to hate them and go with it. The fact that you add these supposed complaints to your arguments makes me think your original argument (about their music) isn't strong enough so it needs to be re-enforced with all these small trivial matters which are caused by fans and internet groupies. Should Varg really be blamed for the loads of children on nazi.org as well? I also don't buy the argument this band has no originality as nobody has yet to name a suitable comparison that draws a direct link. And whose guitar sounds like that? It may not sound like some distorted keyboard or whatever you were expecting, but it certainly sounds original.

Even you admitted this VC is probably the best thing to come out in years. Many people probably agree with you on that. Perhaps this is a case of people wanting to tear down what's on top?  ;D

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 10, 2004, 06:31:37 AM »
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I brought up the comparative example: the song Hvis Lyset Tar Oss. Go have a listen, then listen to the first two songs alone. Vikernes already did this song structure a decade ago, and there are countless bands since then (and well before then, I might add) who have perfected ambience without the reliance of some novelty device to shanghai fools into believing they're doing anything other than playing Varg's lick's on a new-fangled doohickey.


I can't agree here. Hvis Lyset Tar Oss (the album) is my #1 album of all time. I know the thing inside out, the lyrics, you name it, so I am very familiar with this album and the song you mentioned. I must say, it has nothing to do with anything on the "Genevieve" album. You said Vikernes already did this song structure years ago? Rock bands from the 50's used this exact same structure, starting with the groundwork, moving on to the bridge then on to a 'chorus' (or climax or whatever works best when describing such parts). Saying Varg invented this is very inaccurate as this form of structure has existed since the early days of Jazz, and probably could be traced back to early folk music as well. So seeing as the structure is, more than anything, a folk/rock/blues structure rather than a Burzum structure, and seeing as the guitar chords and most importantly patterns are a complete 180 (Varg uses many arpeggios whereas the bulk of "Genevieve is all slow monolithic chords) and vocal patterns and styles are a definitely contrast, I've yet to see anyone logically explain just how these two bands have any relation at all. I don't mean to sound short with you, but it truly vexxes my mind to see all these comparisons yet nobody can really seem to pull out a justification that makes sense.

Another thing that doesn't hold much merit is the constant attacks on the bands instruments. There is lots of talk about novelty on here, but why make it guesswork an issue? Why focus so much on the perceptions of the scene rather than the art itself? If inventing a new instrument is a gimmick, then bring on the gimmicks. I think this forward thinking approach to instrument creation (or adaption) is a very healthy thing especially in a stale scene such as black metal, not something to run around proclaiming gimmick about. Black metal shouldn't be about sitting around playing the same old thing from 13 years ago and forbidding anyone to progress. I find "Genevieve" to be a huge leap in one single album, and it seems fully genuine. I think any band who only does 2 interviews in almost 8 years is certainly not out for scene fame or whatever.

Just my opinion.

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In any event, while this may be the best thing to come out in years, with the lone exception of Rob Halford that springs to mind, that's hardly a feather in one's cap to have such a distinction conferred upon oneself, considering the absolute void of innovation this group possesses.



Void of innovation is a phrase I do not correlate with this group, at least for this album. I can think of no other black metal band in history to centralize their theme around ecoterrorism, condemn Satanism (a wild notion that will earn them more hatred than anything I could imagine), and on the music front I really can't think of anything that sounds remotely close to this, especially since they are constantly compared to Burzum, a band which has significant and noticeable differences on every level - from music to ideology and everything between.

Again, I hope this doesn't sound as though I'm being short with you, it simply boggles the mind to see bands who are making art with such a pure vision be ridiculed for inventing their own instruments or watching new wave films. These trivial issues mean nothing, only the sound which emits from the speakers.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 09, 2004, 09:45:12 PM »
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What do dark chocolate, Stephen Hawking's seed, and French New Wave have in common?



What is the significance of such a question? I too have eaten chocolate, seen French new wave films, and read a Steven Hawking book (though I didn't care much for it). Why is there a need to link all this together, or color it so it fits a black metal mold? She enjoys eating chocolate, she enjoys watching new wave films, and she relates to what Steven Hawking says. What are you missing here?

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Metal / Re: Demilich
« on: November 09, 2004, 06:51:48 PM »
I remember owning this tape when it first came out back in my teen years and finding it somewhat gimmicky, primarily due to the vocals. Anyways, I just downloaded some of these mp3s to remind myself and it's quite good. Quirky and very bizarre death metal. Thank you for providing the links.

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Metal / Re: Velvet Cacoon Interview
« on: November 09, 2004, 06:47:17 PM »
I don't see the logic in claiming the band is trying too hard when your only backup for such a statement is an 'effort from an internet community'. It's something to blame the fans for, not the band. I don't follow any internet communities very close so I'm not aware of any pretentions, although it seems like a grasp to find something to insult?

My take on the album is it's probably one of the best things to come out in years. I hear absolutely no relation to Burzum so I'm not quite sure how your assumption manifested itself. Burzum is much more complex and varied in its structure, unlike the ambient minimalism of VC. In fact, it's so minimal I can't really imagine more than a dozen or so people liking it, and I think the description of ambience played with metal instruments is about as fitting a description as I've seen.

Aside from their ideology, this band earned my further respect when the female half of this band called groups like Nargaroth and Moonblood lowlifes in a recent interview on metalcrypt.com   ;D

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Metal / Re: Ancient - Eerily Howling Winds
« on: November 09, 2004, 06:44:31 PM »
Good news. Early Ancient (redundant) was great.

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