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Topics - Sammaellofi

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Interzone / A New Goal: Restoring the Roots of European Society
« on: January 23, 2012, 05:58:22 PM »
I believe there is a natural order in which society aligns itself when not in conflict with any other force.  The comparative philologist George Dumezil saw earlier pagan societies in Europe structured and made up of three groups: Warrier-King / Peasant Farmer / Religious-Priest.  

After the fall of the Roman Empire, the medieval order can be said to have recreated this structure with it's KIng-Peasant-Church system that rose in the vaccum left.  This order lasted and was successful for something like a thousand years before massive empires and the industrial revolution snuffed it out again.  It was the form of government practiced in Northern Europe, however, from the begining.  It has a history in the region of certainly more than 10,000 years.  

To define these roles, we will start simple and go deeper later:  
-The peasant class performed the labor of an agrarian society and craftsmen were also used.  This group was educated by apprenticeships of different kinds.
-The Warrier King was a noble  position, chosen through family as most professions were, and his job was to protect the realm and inforce law with the assistance of his army, which was normally small and often composed of both professional soldiers and the peasents during times of war.
-The church's role was to provide spiritual and moral compass to the enitre realm and also to preserve all knowledge.  This was the only group that recieved formal education.  The local churches would keep order by working in cooridnace with local traditions and laws.

Our goal should be to understand that this soceity arose from this region of the world as the best natural way to run a society on a local level and to try to recreate this system and make our local and national governments match this system as closely as possible.

This order is not completely missng form the world of today and there are opportunities to preserve it, but before we go into that, I want to know what others think, and we can work on defining this system more thoroughly.

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Metal / Between Ildjarn and Engram....
« on: January 21, 2012, 11:03:22 PM »
...and with a few brief exceptions, did anyone hold up the flag of Black Metal with any kind of integrity other than Graveland?

When getting links the other day I was tempted to listen to Fire Chariots of Destruction and what could be called its sister album Altantean Monument by Lord Wind, both of which I haven't listened to since I lived in Albuqueque three or four years ago.  I'd have to say, there is so many sublime moments I missed back then, and maybe my senses needed to mature.  This is truly some of the greatest metal ever made. 

I remember in those days, I would say things about how they were great but that all their music is the same.  I feel so bad about this, and I already remembering apologizing for it here when Engram came out and I really saw what Black Metal was all about.  Despite this, I remember also feeling like, the first time I heard these albums that there was a clear line that went as follows:

Bathory->Burzum->Graveland.

I believe now that this is true.  I know everyone thinks this is lame, and that Graveland has a lot of cheese to it, and at the same time, everybody knows that Graveland is good metal, but I just think it needs some extra appreciation that at a time when Black Metal to most meant Cradle of Filth and the sell-out versions of Emperor and Dimmu Borgir, someone has the discipline to make some of the most musical metal of all time. 

This is somewhat meant to be a response to the thread about metal bands being obsolete, but decided to start a whole new conversation. 

3
Metal / Metal Evolution's episode about Nu Metal
« on: January 16, 2012, 03:18:33 PM »
...for a few reasons:

-Calling Pan tera nu metal and not thrash and not accepting dumbass "groove-metal" genre
-Calling out Slayer for watering down their music to fit in with nu-metal
-Calling Roots a nu-metal album
-Making all those guys look like commercial pussies.

I'm just glad we're separating the shit from the good, despite the other flaws with the show.

http://www.vh1.com/video/misc/724539/metal-evolution-episode-8-nu-metal-sneak.jhtml#id=1677102

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Metal / Black Metal as Greek or Wagnerian Drama
« on: January 15, 2012, 10:19:10 PM »
(8) Why haven't metal bands gone ancient Greek (no, not that way) by incorporating drama, poetry and music together into one artform?
I suppose we see things differently, as to me, this is one of the primary aspects that define black metal. The corpse paint, the emphasis on atmosphere over virtuosity, the elimination of the individual performers' personas(which is more of a culmination on past metal genres than a new development itself), even the droning and highly linear nature of the music itself; all of these lend themselves to an experience that is far less throbbingly emphatic than it is theatrical, in the sense that it presents an alternate reality from which it can more freely frame its particular views and mores. I could, however, agree that this pursuit has yet to be *perfected*. A lot of bands get misguided by the statement "only the music matters," and on the opposite side of the spectrum, the most intensive examples devolve into intentional gimmick a la GWAR.


Does anyone else find this idea interesting?  This would mean that the goal of Nietzsche and Wagner's notion of perfect art or music of the future would be complete with black metal's rejection of the professionalism of Death Metal and its embrace of theatrics, albeit in a real life sense.

The Black Metal bands could be said to have taken on the aspects of a Greek drama, but bringing it to a place of reality with their adoption of characters and fatal embracing of the meanings of those characters.  This only happened with the Bands Burzum and Mayhem, and a couple other hangers on, for Darkthrone were on a separate wavelength and other bands were only interested in their musical goals.  The characters went on to kill themselves, others, and end up in jail, all in seeking to bring their musical drama to the stage of reality.  If so, are their greek lessons of reverence to be found in this drama, and was this attempt at drama, albeit unintentional, any kind of success.

Just trying to further the conversation.  I know this will bring on ghosts of sensationalism and Lords of Chaos-type books.  Up until now, I tried to look at the genre more realistically and mostly from the musical standpoint, but I will entertain these notions for the sake of the above argument.

5
Metal / Indie Metal
« on: January 11, 2012, 06:17:30 PM »
I ind of checked out of popular metal when Metalcore was at it's peak and the emocore bands with shiny outfits started showing up.  What is Indie Metal?  Is this some new god awful movement I didn't notice?  If someone just wants to post some quick youtube videos, I can fill in the blanks.

6
Metal / Jacula / Antonius Rex
« on: December 27, 2011, 06:36:55 AM »
I have not posted here in a while, but I wanted the opinion of those who think of music in a more thoughtful way, and this was the only place I could think of where the history of music is not just some attempt to make all people seem equal to eachother and pose for shoe commercials.

I was wondering if any of you, while digging through the early roots of extreme music, ever came across Antonius Rex and their earlier form, Jacula.  I listen to them, and am most struck by how it seems completely impossible that they exist at all, with their particular sounds at the particular era.  I enjoy the soundscapes, though I probably would have a different opinion if this music came out in the late 90s.  I think that this much originanity for a time deserves a look at what the deeper message of it was, and so far I have not been dissapointed. 

I am thinking maybe a big joke is being played on me and this band never really existed, but the joke must have been on someone else, as I am no one.

7
Interzone / Human choice
« on: October 22, 2010, 03:56:52 PM »
Nietzsche disagreed with the idea of free-will and put the evidence at a microscopic level, as if to say since all actions have a reaction, then all our actions are predetermined.  I agree with this.

But on free will, I was looking at it another way.  What if all our supposed acts of intelligence are merely the laws of nature in disguise?  For instance, what if all our attempts at business success and buying nice cars were attempts at being territorial and all our attempts to be independent and dress differently than everyone were just courting rituals in disguise, and all of civilization were just a growth of survival instincts gone mad in a fractured and sheltered species?  What if a fish believed that everything it did was it's own decision, even though all it's choices are merely the continuations of what all fish have done for millenia?

Free-will might be an illusion, but is there no truth to it?  I am convinced lately that there is none.

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Metal / What if another good metal band ever existed?
« on: October 09, 2010, 06:22:59 PM »
If no more quality metal ever existed, should we weep? 

In all honesty the appeal of this music is that it has a deeper meaning to it and, at the very least, is quality music for it's own sake.  We look at the best albums and we like what it says, but for some reason we expect more and more of it to be mass produced constantly. 

In the world of poetry, you get an amazing epic once every other century, because poetry (at least until very recently) lived outside of the world of comerce.  I think this points out the initial flaw of waiting for the new metal messiah, for we are not looking for the next Burzum, but rather expecting 60 new great bands to make 60 new great albums every month.  This thinking can only be a product of our consumer culture, which always needs to have the newest products moving at all times, dated several months ahead as not to look out of date.

I'm done waiting for the new metal revolution.  I am done waiting for the old bands to shape up.  I say we praise all great works no matter when they came out, and if new quality music comes out, well then that will just make it a little more worth it.  I get so tired of hearing things like "this new Slayer album is slightly better than their last, so let's support them" as if listening to what everyone else thiinks is what made earlier Slayer albums good in the first place. 

Legion is still a useful album.  Blessed is the Sick is as relevent as ever.  Even the oldest and murkiest EPs of the quality bands from the 80s still have the majority of the power they once had, and the best metal has a timeless quality about it that will never die.  In reality, metal was a brief glimpse at how the world has slipped and aesthetically what could be done to save it.  It had its twilight in the mid-nineties when people started taking action for what the music was about and ended shortly after, when people didn't follow by example, leaving us a fair album once in a while for those who only care about the music for its own end.  If we keep sitting around waiting then that is all we are going to keep getting.

We are just as well off waiting for a new Beethoven to show up and make the greatest symphonies ever made, and then expecting him to do it again 6 more times oand tour it all over the country.

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Interzone / Eugenics <120 Edition 2.0: The Order
« on: October 08, 2010, 09:48:27 PM »
,,

10
Metal / Aristotle's method and metal.
« on: July 18, 2010, 09:00:40 PM »
since we were talking about what is or isn't metal and disputing classic metal albums, I think the basics need to be broken down for everyone.  When Aristotle wanted to know about something, there are four things he needed to know first:

1. What is it made of?
2. What is its structure?
3. How does it work?
4. What does it do?

If we apply these ideas to music, the first two questions are easy.  We can call 1 instrumentation and 2 the structure of the piece.  3 is harder, but can be solved as how the effect of the music is created with a combination of the first two, and finally 4 can solved as what the ultimate goal of the genre of music in question.  Let's try it with some styles of music that everyone already knows the meaning:

German Classical (1800s in general)
1. The music uses the full range of orchestrial and chamber instruments, sometimes altogether and sometimes in solo roles depending on the requirements of the composer,
2. Each piece is structured in a narative form and based around repeated themes that eventually lead to a conclusion
3. These stuctures are performed in opera houses, music halls or sometimes in more intimate settings and lead by a conductor who may vary the tempo and intensity of the music in order to further present the overall effect
4. The goal of these pieces were ultimately to create a connection to God, and at the time that meant also creating a connection to nature by evoking a spirit that was in harmony with these ideas.  A lesser goal was an ideal form of entertainment based on varying tension and increasing drama.

Rock music

1. Rock music is played on instruments that were easy to afford, common and popular in rural areas in the south in America in the 1950s
2. The structures were based on the more raunchy extremes of the various forms of folk music around at the time, which were shortened and simplified, usually following a 1-4-5 pattern, while keeping a constant basic rhythmn on the drums.
3. The music was played on stage for young adults and children, first in dance halls and later in stadiums with very loud volume and energetic delivery from the artists.
4. The main goal, whether the band was just a pop band who wanted you to dance, a 60s protest group, or any other variation was first and foremost based on socializing around something that was considered dangerous.  It's purpose is probably subconciously to find a mate, less so than just rebeling against your parents.  Even political rock is merely people socializing around something that seems anti-establishment for no futher purpose than that.

Now my question to you is, how would Aristle's questionare be filled out for metal?

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Interzone / Fairness
« on: March 17, 2010, 12:20:17 PM »
I am interested in this concept lately.  The idea that all things need to be equal.  That if I have hurt you, then you have equal right to hurt me, or if something good happens to one, it is only right that it happens to all.  Where did this come from?

I can imagine an old hunter gatherer society, where all responsiibilities are left between individuals, families and maybe even tribes.  When someone does something wrong to someone, the person, family or tribe takes care of the problem themself.  Later things like kinship occur, which is the evolutionary development among people that if you hurt one within my herd, then I have the obligation to seek vengence.  From this, you can see where fairness might start to develop.  Eventually people get the idea that a death equals a death, or that the vengence is a right, or at least something that needs to happen, and this eye for eye thinking gets spread to all things, until people eventually find it necessary to seek a third party in the matter in order to see who actually deserves the most of the vengence.  Perhaps that third party is often the same person.  Perhaps he is even considered a wise man iin the community.  He could even be called a proto-judge, or perhaps an early governor....

Your thoughts?

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It is not rare to find metalheads, perhaps those who abandon satanism, embracing a pagan spirit, and even attempting to live their lives by following a pagan religion, usually being dissapointed due to the fact that abandonment of religoin is what drew them to metal in the first place.  The ones who stick with it, usually accept all the trappings of new age garbage along with it.  I believe in no God or Gods, but have gone through phases of interest in paganism, particularly German paganism, as I am essentially a saxon all the way back, and have always admired their reverence for nature.  I left it alone for quite a long time now, always holding on to this story or that symbol in the back of my mind, but recently I found another reason to appreciate the unique Germanic perspective.

It is very common for religions to have what is called a "Fire Bringer" or someone who brings fire, crafts and knowledge to the people, usually to be punished for it by the supreme God, for the sorrow that goes along with it.  Native Americans have stories of Ravens, and most Asian religions have it, but for this post I will focus only on Christians, Greeks and Germanic Pagans.  The most obvious example of the punished fire bringer is satan and his fallen angels; Satan who tempts with fruit, and the fallen angels who in the book of Enoch brought tools and fire.  Of course they were all punished, and even a Pagan religion like the one the greeks had punished thier fire bringer, Promethius, because his fire brought such misery to the people.  Perhaps by the time we recieve any writing from the Greeks, they are too civilized to appreciate such a gift

I've known these stories for a while, but only recently did another familiar fire bringer catch my attention, that being the German god Odin, who brought arts and skills to the people, and rather than be demonized by his people, was praised as the highest in the pantheon for it.

What does this mean?  It means the Germans are freedom loving people, and not the freedom that modern people talk about where some government body is in charge of making sure everyone's freedoms are protected, but rather a freedom where a man is meant to rule himself, and a tool is not seen as a potential for misery, but rather something useful that can do both good and evil depending on who wields it.  These freedom loving Germans always showed the highest reverence to the God that gave them fire and realizing this, I was quite inspired and I wanted to share it with you all, perhaps because there was really no where else where I thought it would be understood.



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Metal / Essential Brahms list
« on: September 18, 2009, 04:38:25 AM »
For those of us longing to dig deeper into classical music, but do not know where to go on, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on further pieces by Brahms to look into.

Other than the 4th Symphony and German Requiem, what other pieces of his do you think form the essentials of his music and content?

14
Metal / Where do you draw the line with Deicide
« on: September 11, 2009, 03:36:19 PM »
Personally I never even bothered looking past Serpents for anything good.  I am aware that the following two album are absolute garbage, though I have never listened to them to say for sure.  I have not looked into their last two albums, and have heard good things about the newest one, but bad things about the one prior.

What are your thoughts on their later career, keeping in mind that I know they will never beat Legion.

15
Metal / Life span of metal
« on: August 18, 2009, 12:45:45 AM »
Quick draft.  Ammend please. 

1. Initial spark.  Band comes together and throws their hat in the ring and tries to be one for the ages.  The best are original, bombastic, and most importantly, shocking.  Sometimes we do not see this stage.  Example: Hellhammer
2. Longing for muse.  Band develops their nitch, but does not perfect it yet.  Music tends to be more asthetic as band still shows jubilation toward their new found direction.   Example: First Burzum album
3. Success.  Band merges their direction with their original drive and usually makes classic albums.  Usually still in the underground, but the world is now watching. Example: Blood Fire Death
4. Foundation, Structure.  The band caries their direction to it's logical ends, sometimes appears boring in it's digging through the catacombs of their style.  Albums are usually quality.  Example: All of Graveland since the new millenium; never left this stage
5. Peak.  All the band's music leads up to a career defining moment that is praised by the underground and the outsiders alike, but meanwhile the band's long life in the music business leaves it conflicted about it's future.  The attitude and direction that joined together in the third stage begin separating, as they we two vessels destined for different ends in the first place.  Example: Rain in Blood
6. Domestication.  The band makes the step in commercialism, and atempts to remain true to itself.  There is little to say about the music, as it is always either a repeat of the past, but watered down, or a pale attempt at new experimentation, where you can tell the only purpose is broadening the audience.  It is at this point that the band brings new listeners into metal and when new bands come out and say they loved the band all along.  Examples: Mid-90s Morbid Angel
7. Essential Selling Out- The band is at this point clearly disconnected with what it was and it shows in the music.  If they did not become famous in the 6th stage, they are called has-beens, but if they did, they are called gurus.  They are never considered superstars in either case, as this never really happens with real metal, unless it stops being metal, in which case, this life span ceases being relevent.  Examples: Divine Intervention+
8. Collapse.  Something gives.  Members become too domesticated.  Band leaves metal.  Possible in-fighting based on ego, as their is no meaning to the music anymore.  Maybe just lack of commercial success.  Example: Celtic Frost before 2006
9. Oblivion.  The part that is not talked about.  The endless fans saying "what if".  Countless talks about reuinions.  Possible new albums that are garbage.  Constant rereleasing of old material.  Example:  Do you have to ask?

It should be noted that most bands can stay in one stage for their entire career, and that some bands never make it passed certain stages.

It should also be noted that bands like Burzum managed to, perhaps due to circumstances, avoid the majority of these steps by not following the ground work.  Does it have to be like this after all?

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