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Messages - Night of the Demon

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1
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 20, 2010, 01:26:22 AM »
Quote from: Night of the Demon
There is birth, infancy, maturity, and senility.  What is most representative of a subject is not necessarily himself in his oldest state, but his most mature state.  You will find that the time it takes for art to age is not easily comparable to that of a human; it might take a genre a few months to reach maturity, and then it decays over a course of decades.  Now, I am not saying this exactly happened to metal, but I'm saying your analogies prove nothing.  I am saying that just because black/death is the style most removed and evolved from heavy (debatable), it is not necessarily the most advanced.

You are just talking for talk's sake here. Agree on everything and analogy remain true. I don't want to prove anything, my analogy is just more descriptive than my bad language. The things are just there. They supposed to at least give you a perspective. So what's so debatable here? It's not necessary, but it is in that case as it is most mature. But not the oldest because metal continues past Death/Black.

I really am having a hard time understanding you here.  I don't agree  with the notion that black/death is more mature than heavy.

Quote from: Night of the Demon
Listen to Judas Priest's debut, and it is clear that rocking out was part of metal from near the beginning.  It was in early Black Sabbath too, except not in the lyrics, more ingrained subtly in the music; it was designed to rock too.
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There's no such rockin' in Romanticism. If I'm about to agree about claim your that metal had to be romantic to be metal, then rock is obsolete in metal. Thus quintessence of metal would be most romantic (and deprived of rock) of the genres.

I already explained how bikes, women, leather, and rocking are romantic.  Part of the reason why people want to stop this part of the debate is because we are driving in circles and repeating ourselves.

Everything else you said I already covered, too.

2
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 20, 2010, 01:21:59 AM »
To sum everything up: We ALL love heavy metal here, I can safely state that. Just we tend to enjoy extreme metal like, with 3 times more intensity. I think there was a lot of pointless discussion wich made ANUS members act too defensive. It's more simple like, you like heavy metal, ok we like extreme metal best, so let's compare some songs, you post 4 songs for youtube videos and we choose 4 extreme metal songs and compare them and write why we think wich is best. How can we discuss music talkin endlessly about a bunch of stuff that's not even closely related to it.

Let the OP post 4 youtube links with what he believes is superior metal, and let ourselves post each 1 link until we reach 4 with our songs and then judge why we like each song etc.

The result shall be the awesomeness of death/black metal.

I'll start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kZI7b7wJA
I enjoyed that. Does the title refer to some alchemical ritual?

I've already posted several songs, so I'll keep out of this part of the discussion.

For me, it was a decent song.  I looked up the lyrics, followed along, tried to absorb the piece as an entire art.  I think a Satanic song like this could use a more evil atmosphere.  A band like Venom designed their music to send chills of evil down your spine when you listen.  Legion of the Damned is a more modern band which also does this very well.  But overall, this is the sort of extreme metal I would find better than average for its genre.  The guitar work and drumming was well-done, and I found a lot of the riffs interesting.

So, this would be more of my idea of cream-of-the-crop metal:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-49noOAFsG8

3
Metal / Re: We.Are.Satans.Preachers. and 'The Glam' thing in general...
« on: August 20, 2010, 12:59:53 AM »
Did you even say something?  Because that rant made no sense.  I would compare W.A.S.P. to Judas Priest as being a better band, but not as influential.

4
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 19, 2010, 12:59:39 PM »
Sure, we can agree to disagree.  Music is a subjective experience; everybody likes different music.  I see it the same way as you as far as that is concerned.

5
Interzone / Re: Chivalry is dead
« on: August 19, 2010, 12:11:39 PM »
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Chivalry isn't dead, either.  It might have a few wounds, but it will always be alive in the hearts of those who believe in it.  Misogynists, sexists, cowards, jerks, etc. have existed for centuries...

Chivalry is sexist by the way. Of course most women don't mind it all the same. 


Well, I'm not going to start digging into the medieval concept of chivalry here, but the modern use of the word for courtesy toward women is not sexist.  Sexism is the belief that one gender is superior to another, in part or in whole, and/or treating that gender as such.  When I act especially courteous toward a woman it is for my own honor, so that I can know myself as a gentleman.  It is also a small favor in return for all women have endured, from the pain of pregnancy and childbirth to the centuries of oppression and discrimination.  It is not like I believe she is weak and cannot hold her own door.

6
Interzone / Re: Chivalry is dead
« on: August 19, 2010, 09:30:20 AM »
At first, I figured that the guy was blinded by the light, thought the ball was off to his right, and moved to catch it.  I figured, hey, he screwed up; he physically made a mistake.

Then I watched the interview, and he said that he "bailed."  People bail when they're afraid.  Yeah, that's really lame and embarrassing for him.  I hope he was daydreaming, had his head and the clouds, and forgot he had his girlfriend with him.  Otherwise, who would bail on their girlfriend while thinking straight?

I know a lot of members have thrown out that this guy is worthless and that you can tell by his hat (that had me laughing), but to be honest I see no logical reason why this girl would be expected to be anymore admirable of a human being.  Bets are they are both shallow jocks/cheerleaders; now, I'm not saying I'm making that judgment, but if it's for one it's for both.

Chivalry isn't dead, either.  It might have a few wounds, but it will always be alive in the hearts of those who believe in it.  Misogynists, sexists, cowards, jerks, etc. have existed for centuries, and just because there are many today, and perhaps in a couple of these areas it is on the rise, it does not differentiate it that much from the past.

7
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 19, 2010, 06:00:48 AM »
I wouldn't compare them to Chuck's lyrics; they're much less contrived. They also conform very nicely to the mood of the song.

The major difference to me would seem to be that Chuck's lyrics are more optimistic; both sound somewhat contrived to me, like the writer is trying very hard to keep the mood as flat and solid as a rock in BT's case.

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I realize that this couldn't be mistakened for anything by Yeats or Stevens, but as you've said, it evokes some pretty 'heavy' sentiments.

Reread this passage.
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

I was just enunciating my views of the difficulties our civilization is up against. Would you not agree that our people would do well to embrace their masculinity, and have more strength of conviction, instead of wallowing in their own spiritual filth as they do now? It would seem that the band also shares this perspective, though they are much farther to the left than I am politically.

Yes, we could use some more strength and masculinity in a lot of our world's population.  But you know, I'm a Manowar fan, so I hear that message all the time in a majority of their songs, and it conveys the message a lot more overtly and stronger (a message for strength should be bold; the medium should match the message).  I have this:

Rip their flesh and their hearts
Stab them in the eyes
Rape their women as they cry
Kill their servants- burn their homes
Until there is no blood left to spill
By divine right hail and kill!

Now to me, that gets across the message that we need to jack up the testosterone level in society more so than Bolt Thrower's empty abstractions.  In fact, when I read those BT lyrics, I thought they were pacifistic, urging people avoid confrontation by showing a soldier's confusion and panic.

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I disagree; I feel that awkward and/or boorish lyrics have always plagued heavy metal, especially when compared to the original inspirations(Milton, Nietzsche, Goethe, Byron, Homer, etc.). There are exceptions, of course, but it's a failing of the genre. The strength of the music has usually made up for this foundational flaw in my estimation.

I think you'll find an equal amount of awkward and boorish lyrics in death metal.  If these lyrics were sung, the flaws would be more obvious and irritating than when they are written and growled.

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I came in from the other direction. My best friend let me borrow "Stained Class" and "Powerslave" when I was fourteen, and I was hooked. Later, when I was seventeen, I was looking at Obituary reviews when I happened upon this site's article on "Cause Of Death". I've never looked back(I just turned 21 three weeks ago).

Yeah, it's interesting how people are different like that.  You know, now this debate has gone so far from the original subject that I am not sure exactly what to trace this all back to.  The best conclusion that I can offer is that A.  Neither type of metal can be objectively said to have superiority over the other, because people like you and I will argue for ages.  It is all subjective. B.  "Metal" is a word, a word that different people have different ideas about and apply to different music, but it's to be expected and taken for granted that the people from my perspective are going to see extreme metal as not the best representation, especially when we have all the pride of coming first, being more influential, having all the "circus" to show off, and having a larger army.

8
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 19, 2010, 05:10:00 AM »
Yeah, except I explained why in detail.

9
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 19, 2010, 04:39:01 AM »
BTW, how do you like any of the music that I recommended to you?

I'm exploring that band Absu you mentioned.  I tend to focus heavily on one thing at a time, so I'll probably check out more bands on your list over the course of a week or so.  I definitely like the way this band sounds and the epic qualities; it brings Bathory to mind.

I already knew a handful of the bands in the list, stuff like Morbid Angel and Suffocation.  I'm going back to some of those too for relistens.  It's been a while.  I got into metal through death metal.  The first metal band I ever listened to (not counting things like hearing Metallica on the radio) was Decapitated.  I worked my way backward into Vader, Death, Slayer, Napalm Death, but found as I worked back that the strongest metal material was in the heavy/speed metal style.  I was probably only an "extreme metal head" for a year before I just abandoned it mostly;  I was really deeply into it, but by about age 16 I felt it lacked the same strength as other metal styles.  So yeah, that's my story and how I ended up in this situation and view on metal.  I'm trying to reconnect a bit with exactly what I saw in the metal I listened to when I was 14 (I'm 19 now).

10
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 19, 2010, 04:28:56 AM »

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.
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The first stanza is reminiscent of "You Can't Go Home Again" by Thomas Wolfe. We can't return to the innocence of childhood, or regress into a more primitive evolutionary stage, or reconstruct a better, more sane historical age long past. We must face our problems as adults. This responsibility is a heavier burden than most can bear in this era, so they deteriorate internally.

It is a collection of cliches.  "on the edge," "spirit...break," "no turning back."  They're really dry cliches too, a lot like Chuck Schuldiner lyrics during their later era.  You can put all sorts of profound ideas behind them, but all they really are: a string of abstractions.  Show; don't tell.  I would much rather hear a narrative showing how childhood cannot be traveled back to.  Let's express our ideas in creative ways, use concrete objects as symbolism, maybe even some elements of inventive wordplay.  Anyone can write lyrics like Bolt Thrower; it sounds like the "poetry" I wrote when I was 13, before any formal training in poetry or creative writing on a university level.  Now, maybe there's something about this primitive style that evokes raw emotions in some people, and I'll respect that, but let's not pretend it's more sophisticated.

It also sounds like you are reading deeper into these lyrics than the band intended; what was written was vague and can be interpreted in many ways, a lot having nothing to do with what you said.  lines like "Far from safe" are pretty insipid, too.  That has got to be one of the most dry, lifeless, awkward lines in this whole song.

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The second stanza describes the problem of nihilism in a nutshell. We as a people(I'm referring to Western Man) are unable to hold any strong convictions, and have convinced ourselves that we have nothing left to achieve as a culture. There is no consensus-we have nearly lapsed into the Hobbesian state of nature, that is, every man against all other men.

Bolt Thrower's lyrics didn't say that.  All they said is that he is confused and doesn't know where to go.  You're really just trying to match it all up with your ideas and the ideas of thinkers you admire.  If Bolt thrower meant to say this, they did a poor job getting theiir message across in an accurate or interesting way.

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The third stanza tackles the decay of our moral standards and the hypocrisy that is a result thereof. It also hints ironically of our inability to apply the harsh lessons that the histories of other great civilizations that had fallen from grace could teach us (misfortune predictable/lessons learned before).

Whatever happened to the whole ANUS idea of music not having a message?  If the music is saying all this, it sounds pretty preachy to me.  Oh, but no, these are merely ideas that you are imposing upon this poetry.  Well, I'm afraid anybody can do that with anything.  Your ideas, however, are not that complex.  They are typical, pessimistic tripe of little value to our civilization, at least as anything disguised to be new.

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This quandary has entangled modern man for little more than two centuries, and in that time we have not come any closer to alleviating our confusion or unifying our disparate, atomized citizens into a functioning society, as the fourth stanza so aptly demonstrates.

It's really just a victim of all my prior criticisms.

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The fifth stanza is a summary of the previous passages, and also serves as a reminder to the attentive listener that if these dire straits are not navigated prudently, it could spell the end of mankind.

I would much rather have had an artistic, juicy narrative poem than this mediocre philosophy.  That's a good job Bolt Thrower, leaving me emotionally and intellectually unstimulated, and unimpressed.  I have been brought to tears from lyrics, had chills run down my spine, had orgasms, had spells of love and fits of rage, been moved to my knees... this is just, well, your average death metal lyrics.

This, by the way, is not my first exposure to Bolt Thrower.  I have always thought they were a band with far better music than lyrics.  Bolt thrower make some good metal, but the lyrics, like a majority of death metal, are very weak when compared to heavy metal.  I know my criticisms were harsh and unrestrained, but I feel compelled to get it across that I do not like these lyrics, or like the ideas you infer from them, and I find it very aesthetically unappealing, boring, and dull.  It's way too vague, tailored with the integrity of a fortune teller.

11
Metal / Re: Why do we all hate -core music?
« on: August 18, 2010, 11:39:31 PM »
I dislike "-core" music because most of it is very dry with no other redeeming values except some technicality.  They also do not match their lyrical themes with the music; you cannot tell a love song from a hate song without reading the lyrics, and that's how you know aesthetics are lacking.  I also find fry screams grating, and even more so those whiny clean vocals.  The music fails at being heavy, because it is over-processed and as light as pop punk with screaming.  Put some testosterone in the guitar, will you?  Or if you must, some estrogen...I don't care, put something in it to make it less dry and at least interesting and provoking.

As for the scene, much of it is a joke.  These bands usually have no understanding or respect for their ancestors, and most fans aren't better.  This music is not for me.

Query - do you dislike grindcore or hardcore punk as well?

If you speak of this modern techcore/metalcore/whatevercore craze, I'm sure you'll find the entirety of the board in agreement with you.

I like some hardcore punk and grindcore, and when I criticized "-core" I meant genres like metalcore, deathcore, and mathcore.

12
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 18, 2010, 11:34:03 PM »
So rather than a genuine attempt to get inside a concept and explore it in a unique way, leaving room for multiple interpretations, you'd choose a reactionary opinion of a particular event put into a rhyme over some stirring chords whose one merit is that it could apply to other events.

I'm giving concrete and specific examples for things I have already explained in more abstract ways, which is the appropriate direction once the general idea has been explained.

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Seriously, Dismember, Bolt Thrower, Immolation, Emperor and Burzum all have lyrics that attempt to explore ideas such as war, life and death that not only narrates it, but empathizes with one confronted with these things. Your dismissal of my post is yet another example of you doing the precise thing you so heavily criticise earlier in the post. This time an outright negation of someone else's ideas with little explanation because it does not suite you.

Bolt Thrower - Armageddon Bound

On the edge - spirit begins to break
Chances unsure - not much more you can take
Weakness grows - nerves start to crack
Far from safe - there is no turning back

A fine line - between victory and defeat
At the midpoint - uncertainty complete
Confusion prevails - unsure which way to move
Holding no hope - there is nothing more
nothing more to prove

Trying to discover what is right
And what is wrong
Judged by false criteria
Ideals strong
Misfortune predictable
Lessons learnt before
Decisions now justified
Perpetuate this war

This battlefield wide open
No territory gained
Within this wasteland
Humanity constrained

Here in no mans land
No mercy can be found
Delirious perspective
Armageddond bound.

This is far more sophisticated than, "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I done a poem."

No it's not.  It is nowhere near as sophisticated as a "this war upsets me because of these reasons so I've done a poem" take.  In fact, it is juvenile comparison.

These Bolt Thrower lyrics are a riddle of abstractions, too many abstractions and not enough concrete descriptions.  Have you ever heard of "show, not tell?"  Most songs will do some telling, but it is preferable to have some areas where physical objects are described that convey abstract ideas.  These lyrics are mediocre, sounding like amateur philosophy, because even if it was the artist's attempt to make a riddle of abstractions, it is a relatively boring one.  It's a lot of sentence fragments, mostly not even complete sentences or ideas, that are sloppily thrown together, with little sense of narration or chronology.  If that's what you like then that is what you like, but it is not very sophisticated.  There are no profound or thought-provoking ideas or comparisons introduced by the writer, just abstractions describing the confusion in war.

13
Metal / Re: We.Are.Satans.Preachers. and 'The Glam' thing in general...
« on: August 18, 2010, 01:13:59 PM »
That's why I prioritize a band's musical quality over their theatrics or politics; I don't want to be bamboozled by a flashy stage show or shocked by an obtuse and 'edgy' ideology. I want to hear good music.

Well, if it's all stage show and image, but the music sucks, then the band is a failure as far as I'm concerned.  But that's why Blackie always said W.A.S.P. have held a steady fan base all these years, because he is a self-proclaimed perfectionist who refuses to forget that it is the quality of the music which is most important.  The riffs, the melodies, the composition, the journeys: these are what count.

My perception of violence and deviance has been irrevocably altered by my exposure to Nietzsche, Conrad, Burroughs, Carcass, Autopsy, ANUS(of course), and many other artists and thinkers. What I have learned is that many of those who proclaim themselves rebels and declare themselves mentally liberated from "the herd" have often in fact only left one mob for another. They have all of the appearances of a free thinking individual, but are just as dependent upon how others perceive them as the "squares" they mock and repudiate. They have only traded one ridiculous set of taboos and conventions for another.

Maybe, but many does not mean all.  There is a right way to be a rebel.

14
Metal / Re: Pure Metal and ANUS
« on: August 18, 2010, 01:04:20 PM »
Therein lies my point: I've never met a fan of either group.

I have on the internet.  In person, not yet perhaps, but I don't ask every human I see.  But it is for sure that such people exist, literally thousands (91,000 Blue Cheer listeners on last fm), but they are scattered throughout a world of several billion.

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I know that there are a lot of diamonds in the rough out there, but keep in mind that a lot of those so called "neglected masterpieces" were forgotten for a reason. There is no merit in the claim that because something is more obscure, it is of higher quality than an acknowledged classic.

Sure there's a reason: society and the music industry, and their trendy, fickle, ignorant nature.  As for the second statement, of course you are right.  You aren't talking to a walking "kvlt kid" stereotype, as I'm sure has been made clear by the opinions I have expressed.  I'm arguing that popularity and quality have an extremely weak correlation full of extreme outliers, not an inverse correlation.

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In regards to the unsung artists that are worthy of attention, I think that quite a fem of them do eventually obtain some recognition from the wider community as a result of the internet, because it makes much more information available to a greater number of people. That is one of the reasons that sites like the metal archives and anus exist.

Yes, many do.  Manilla Road and Morbid Saint come to mind; I think the internet has really put together a strong, new fan base for both bands.

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Also, what relevance does that comment have with our discussion, or even with our previous exchanges? It seemed like an outburst to me.

I was trying to make the point that "period pieces" are really not as common as one might think, and I was offering an explanation why bands would still fall out of public/community attention despite not being period pieces, demonstrating that the fact they are now unpopular does not imply they are a period piece; there is an alternative explanation, one I am ardent about and perhaps that is why my rhetoric sounded like an outburst.

15
Metal / Re: Why do we all hate -core music?
« on: August 18, 2010, 07:07:18 AM »
I dislike "-core" music because most of it is very dry with no other redeeming values except some technicality.  They also do not match their lyrical themes with the music; you cannot tell a love song from a hate song without reading the lyrics, and that's how you know aesthetics are lacking.  I also find fry screams grating, and even more so those whiny clean vocals.  The music fails at being heavy, because it is over-processed and as light as pop punk with screaming.  Put some testosterone in the guitar, will you?  Or if you must, some estrogen...I don't care, put something in it to make it less dry and at least interesting and provoking.

As for the scene, much of it is a joke.  These bands usually have no understanding or respect for their ancestors, and most fans aren't better.  This music is not for me.

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