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Messages - Protector

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1
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 05, 2007, 11:08:49 AM »
But anyway the last talks make it even more clear for me that metal music is in great concentration to national socialism (as well as feudalism).

originally the metal scene was totally contrary. before guys like varg vikingers appeared, metal music meant to be free in mind, to be against rules, to be proud about yourself rather than about your nationality etc. suddenly this changed and instead of freedom, metal-heads now long for dictatorship and control. instead of being against rules they want a fascistic system thats the symbol of rules and and extreme conformance. in the past metal heads wanted to be different from the average and against the mainstream and showed this by dressing different having long hair etc, now metal-heads support systems that prosecute anythings thats different. they still did not take the consequences so far and cut their hair to adapt their look to the mainstream, but a guy from poland told me that all his metal friends finally started to shave their heads and become skinheads. in the past metal heads wanted to be strong and any kind of cringingness towards anyone was something rather disgusting; now the blind obedience thats the most essential part of any fascistic system has replaced individual strength. instead of making decisions on your own, metal heads seem now to think they need a strong man that helps them to bring order into their life.

the most important official demanded values of the nazis where obedience and troth. if all those young nazi metal heads really feel so close to those values i would like to know whats so great in obeying and how this suits to rebellion?. whom you would love to obey so much, apart from hitler? why dont you just obey your parents, you can have that any time;-)

and about troth. Sure i am also loyal to my friends or ideals for example, but i am definitely not loyal to any guy who invaded austria with his german army without asking, then puting himself into the position as dictator and forcing all people to accept and love him and be loyal to him. thats something i will never do, as i will always decided for myself who deserves loylty and who deserves the contrary.

and something i would like to mention about the opinions that hitler did not bring "boring mass media" to the people which was written some time ago on that thread. does anybody of those nazi metal heads here know how the nazi regime entertained their nation? the third reich was the magic moment for german "schlager", which is surely the most cheesy, ridiculous and hypocritical music that exists. in this music the nazi government wanted to create a positive mood in their songs to keep an optimistic mood so that the german people can fight better on the battles and stand better the pain this war caused. 1942 the director of the national-socialistic department of culture called "Hans Hinkel" organized the "contest for the optimistic schlager"!

2
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 05, 2007, 11:05:55 AM »
Quote

Yes I do ; although I've been listening to a lot of classical, ambient and folk music in recent years. Great Metal bands have enough musical qualities to be listened to even when you discover other great genres of music ; and these include Summoning :)



Nobody, except the hero himself who makes other people recognize what he did, most of the times simply by doing it ! There's not even the need for discussion or propaganda, acts speak for themselves. When Charles Martel did the job of the king and kicked out the Arabs who were trying to settle in, he immediately gained the legitimacy to become the king. Wise as he was, he even waited, because he just wanted to let the current king die so the people themselves could realize it was better to choose his bloodline as successors rather than the king's. As a result Charles Martel's son became king, while Charles Martel himself never became one. Further, the son of this son was... Charlemagne, a.k.a. Karolus Magnus, the Emperor of the Franks who ruled over Europe.


ok i must confess, i am surprised that you listen to metal.

ok but where is the difference to capitalism and feudalism in that point? the son of a rich guy will also be rich (i would say cause he had better chances in live becuase of his father, you surely will tell me that he is rich because of his intelligence and ability inheritance).  but in any case the abilities of the father are past to his offsprings, but still there is the chance existing that there will be a pour guy having so much abilities to get rich like those guys you mentioned that became aristocratic.

i just know that i surely never would have become a king in those times and surely never would have intended it. but i am happy in these modern times i had this chance to make music ( a chance I would not have had in feudalism) although i can not see any musical abilities when i think about my father, mother, grandmother etc.

3
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 05, 2007, 11:00:41 AM »
Quote
Not very likely. Intelligence is genetic:


so you think paris hilton could also have built up an hotel empire like her father?

4
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 05, 2007, 10:54:23 AM »
Quote

I don't understand, I am agreeing with you that Nazism and Neo-Nazism are both mistakes! I also agree that people who stand to be against the current form of capitalism are often lying or have double standards, and imperialism is wrong.

"for me the similarity of interests is far more important than the similarity of the nation"

But doesn't the similarity of the nation mean more similarity of interests for its people? Common values and stronger and more defined culture can only help create similarities between two people in a country.

I would argue that NSDAP is different to national socialism, you can't mistake the theory of the political ideology with the people who instigated it. Nationalism is about the country working as a self sustainable organic organism by itself with common ethnicities, goals and values. Socialism is about the government of a country helping to provide all of the populations basic needs to survive. National socialism in its most basic form is simply a mixture of the two, nothing to do with Nazism.


hmm i am confused as well:-)
you say you agree with me and i don't see what in my last posting made you think that i think you don't agree?

well i added some more information to this point. maybe you thought all this information is meant as argument against yours. sorry if that caused confusion.

specially in times of Internet national borders become less important. now you can talk easily with people that even live on the other side of the world.  what common interests should i have with an austrian rich banker for example? i don't see any?

and about nationalism. i neither think they had any socialistic element inside as they where based on social davinism, nor on any real national element.  i told before that actualyl the nazis where nor real nationalists if you take a deep look at their ideology. a real nationalist wants to to be independent from others, the more harsh nationalists dont even want foreign influences at all. but what did the nazis doe? they invaded like maniacs any contry they could see in order to get more space for their aryan master race folk. this means that they wanted germans to live on a ground that has neither any historic nor cultural connection to them. can anybody here  imagine what  they would have done if they would have one the war? you think they would have left poland, russia and all other countries alone again. so what about their additional space they need. it is obvious that they would have stayed there and even likely that they would have forced the people their to speak german and put lots of them to concentration camps.

5
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 04, 2007, 12:44:21 PM »
Quote

Don't get me wrong - I fully agree Hitler was a lunatic and the rest of his party were cowards when it came to stopping the obviously lost war, and that a lot of the time his rhetoric and actions were based on silly hatred, and he is responsible for some of the worst things to happen in history :-).

Your example of culture exchange with the instruments etc I would say as positive changes that were introduced and assimilated organically and healthily, we can always learn from other cultures. What I meant was change in the modern sense of the word means forced submission to a wholesale foreign culture and their people. E.G. millions of third world immigrants, and foreign religions and traditions gaining prominence over our own. This is purely destructive. This destroys a peoples genetics and their culture, and should be completely reversed. And it isn't just being around people who are like you in spirit, but the way they actually look too IMO. I don't think you need foreign people to talk to metal about.

BTW, this discussion on feudalism. I'm not opposed to it really but it wouldn't be my preferred choice. It leads to corruption of the peasants and the lower classes and the kings become easily decadent. TBH I wish things were back how they were in the stone age, family bonds and inter-tribal agreements made up the politics side of things and everyone had plenty of space to call their own. Democracy isn't so bad if the population is decreased and everyone is well adjusted and perceptive, unlike most today.


well surely it is not a fine thing if millions of people have to run from their contry and live in another one that they dont even know before. but the questoin is not understanding the symptom, the question is understanding the solutions for it. is it really a solution if some nazi skinheads beat up some poor people who had such a bad situation that the prefered to immigrate. do you think that any of them likes to be an immigrant? but all those nazis, hooligan and skinheads just use this for a reason for a fight, they dont do anything aginst the reasons why stuff like this occurs. as you see in this discussion about feudalism you see there is always this great respect towards anything that is mighty. therefore a real nazi would not fight a huge concern that is responsible for much exploitation. secretly they have respect for, that why the nazis in the second world war did not have any problems collaborating with IBM for example. they just talk about being anti capitalistic, but those are just empty words. many of them surely got to mac donals, or by things in huge concerns.

and this form again showed that nazis still think in this imperialistic way with the right for colonies. they just still keep on sticking with all those things taht actually caused those problems.

and sure i can talk with austrians about metal, but i jsut wanted to tell you that for me the similarity of interests is far more important than the similarity of the nation. and actually i think even the nazi metal heads hear think that althoug they would never confess it, because i can not imagine any of those nazi black metal kids seeing his greatest pleasere in sozialising around in various social levels talking with any kind of person as long as he is from his country. they also see the similary of interessts as the most important thing, thats why you always see a bunch of metal heads hanging around together but never a metal head with some banker or farme etc.

and once again i really need to repeat that to make this thing clear. national socialism is based on fascism and racism, these are two things that are not the same. fascism is about total control of the folk and leader-cult, whereas racism is a simplified way of judging peoples personality by their race. and this again does not necessarily have to be connected to nationalism. there are there different therms that should not be mixed to easily.

6
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 04, 2007, 12:34:39 PM »
Quote

Their birth as noble inherently refers to abilities their ancestors proved, and I mean proved in a strong manner, with real conflicts and the hammer at hand (see Charles Martel), not political bullshit like today. If the sons don't show these qualities, then just kick them out, even if it might take longer than your lifetime.



It will happen, it is inevitable ; it's just a matter of time. Sometimes it can take many generations, but in the end, weaker or incompetent king bloodlines are kicked out. The idiot son may rule over the country for his entire life, but the generations after him won't rule very long, objectively speaking. Of course a human lifespan is sometimes not enough to realize this process, but it's what happens, just look at history.


well i consider many of the nazi metal heads as some kind of lost disorganized people who long for political incorrectness to get attention, but who won't really deal with the nazi ideology deeper and dont't see the consequences. actually your love for feudalism shows me that you rather belong to the more established nazi sympathizers, seeing the nazi movement with all its aspects, and understanding that this ideology is  just the most extreme form of conservativeness, and not wanting to make then look like some modern, open minded bunch of guys (like some people here want them to see). do you reall isten to metal music like death or black metal?
my intentions are to show the people here that metal as symbol of rebellion does not suit to fascism thats the symbol of slavoury, my arguments are not made for any other scene. most of my arguments are not valid for you as you seem to understand what this ideology means and so there is no need to convince you. your sympathy for feudalism for example is for me the greatest argument against national socialism as it shows the connection between both systems.

anyway i consider any king that never did anything to get the might and lives in luxury while his folk starves as a disgusting parasite; nothing else. no matter how "nobel" behavior he learned all the time in his childhood, how glamorous he is dressed, and how much makeup, lipstick and perfume he is wearing; he will always be a lousy parasite for me.but thats whats the nazi ideology is based on as well, they want people to give everything (even their live) to their leaders (lords) to enable them luxury while they almost starve. cringingness and subservience was always an important value for repression and now it seems to get attacktive again for some weired people.

And btw who decides who is a hero and deserves to become aristocratic?
do you think that a rebel those times fighting gainst the suppression of the lords organizing a  insurgence to make the life of his folk better would be seen as  hero by the "blue blooded" and they will make him a king?  For sure not! they will torture him and then execute him, but actually this guy would be the greatest hero for me.

You can be happy if you like the way that power was passed to the offspring in feudalism. just take a look at the quite retarded George W. Bush. I dont think he became president because he is so damn smart or experienced; he became president because his father was president once and could help him to enter the white house. here you have your modern version of feudalism, enjoy.

or think about "richard hilton". i don't adore any hotel owners at all, but i think you need a certain talent to build such a kind of huge hotel empire. do you think that "paris hilton" has also those abilities? for me capitalism is not so far away from feudalism in that point; at least in both systems the son of a super rich guy will also be rich no matter what stupid idiot he might be. and also in capitalism people with more money are considered as the more nobel ones with more culture. both systems do their best to blind the average folk with their money, luxury and might. some swallow this shit, some don't.

7
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 03, 2007, 10:38:34 AM »
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Ask yourself where do nobles come from : they're former peasants who became heroes. Nobility is first nobility of actions and will. Only then do people become nobles and can pass on this title to their children. Bloodlines of kings are kicked out when they become decadent, by other bloodlines who rose up among the mediocrity : see how the Carolingians kicked out the decadent Merovingians' line. You're not trapped in your condition ; although past lives (your ancestors) often reflect accurately your potential.


EDIT: the witch hunt has nothing to do with the concept of feudalism in itself.



Yes and ask yourself what idiots children of heros can be. you prefer that people get a role because of their birth than because of their abilities.

And a retarded son of a king does not have to prove any nobility. he is automatically a king after his father has died. Ok it can happen that the folk makes a rebellion against a king if he is too stupid, but thats not the norm.

yes i know it is not belonging to the concept of feudalism but is is a fix element of medieval times.

EDIT: feudalism is just a kind of legalized version of       protectionism. you can say the same for capitalistic system where the son of a rich man will also be ritch even if he is an idiot.

8
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 03, 2007, 10:25:24 AM »
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The ideal of love (see the "Amour Courtois"), the ideals of knighthood, the system of feudality where people have a real role in society depending on their nobility and abilities (leaders lead while warriors fight while craftmen craft while priests pray), the long-lasting monarchies where stability allows cultural achievements that span several centuries (the evolution of music for example, and other high arts such as realist painting), etc. Nobility of heart and of will. Better organization of society, more organic and logical.


you support feudalism?
you see it as a postive aspect that any guy even if he is a retarded idiot will become a king if his father is a king as well?
you think it is good to have this fix roles? you think it is good that a son of a tailor will also be a tailor no matter what musical genius he might be? this means i would never have made music in those times as my parents are not connected to music?

you think hunting innocent women and accusing them as witches. then judging if they are witches by throwing them into the water and see if the stay on the surface or not is a more logical way of society!?

are you seriously telling me that those things are positive values that shall come back?

9
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 03, 2007, 10:14:52 AM »
Quote
To Protector:
My sources says, that svastika was discovered across whole area populated by indo-european folks or aryans in other words, so where's the paradox?

About USA: in case you didn't notice there is difference between imperialism and totalitarism(sensu nazism, fascism or in its worse incarnation: communism). Comparing USA to Third Reich is a fucking insult to both sides. USA have imperialistic tendencies while being multicultural, liberal, democratic and capitalistic and for sure have nothing in common with any form of national socialism.

Nazis are usually morons. But people considering themselves as satanists with all those hatefull statements are not so far from there either. Sodomy, total nihilism (in most obvious meaning, not in that nice and polished ANUS version) and simple hedonism as a solution to what (as presented by most idiotic bands which for sure doesn't use this words as a metaphor)? They should be happy in modern society, because mindles pleasures (granted by money = bait of capitalism) and fuck values, ideas and differences attitude are prevailing tendencies here. Should NS and satanism be rejected from metal?
My conclusion is that we can find beauty in both (and create poetry or even philosophy of it) if only we can see through simplistic functions they seem to attend in social mentality today.

You wrote that you don't want any fasistic leader to make decisions for you. I always think, that your music express some kind nostalgia after ancient times (no matter historic or fantastic), times, when you can be led by such a leader, when you may at most call him despotic, but never fasistic because such classification is against any logic in those simple(sensu delusionless) times. But i guess i was wrong, it was only my impression...At the end only you can for sure tell what your music is about.

Just like i wrote before J-e-w-s were nationalists and it help their culture and unique DNA survive...
Don't be silly thinking that your coworker ever gonna tell you that he supports genocide practiced by those bastards in Israel, even if you realize that it is necessary for them to keep their territory. Besides, people who lives outside of their country for too long, usually lose ability to comprehend situation in it.


no there is a misunderstanding. my intentions was not to show any contradiction between swastika and german symbols. i just wanted to tell that the nazis did not bring many germanic elements back.

ok sorry, normally i write USA is tending into this direction. it is of course shit to say that they are like the third reich, but there are similar aspect. since the "patriot act" surely there happened a great step into a more fascistic direction, as people are now far more controlled and freedom is reduced.

But the wish to enlarge the control of USA to almost the whole world remind me more and more on the third reich. they just do it in a more clever and more relaxed way.  and btw capitalism and nazis are no contradiction for me.

yes you are right that summonings music has a strong nostalgic element inside, but i always can differ between fantasy and reality. i can go into a gothic church and enjoy the architecture, but that does not mean that i would like to live in medieval times with pest and bondage, being a kind of slave to your lord that owns my ground.

so you mean it is impossible that any israelic person can be against the israelic government?!
for example american people can be against the USA government, why not an Israeli against his government as well?

10
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 03, 2007, 10:03:58 AM »
Quote
You are brainwashed if you say Hitler never did one good thing. You are brainwashed if you say he was a saviour of Europe and we should all follow his ideals nowadays.

"foreigners dont necessarily destroy the identity of a culture"

So how do foreign elements inserted into a pure culture make it more pure and distinct? We're not asking to play trumpets in a brass band or anything ridiculous like that; we just want the right to be with people who we are similar to so we can develop in our own time and maintain our own sense of familyhood. Change will always come, but not in the corrupt, modern sense of the word.


well as i wrote before i varied this line a bit and now say the hitler just did not bring more positive aspects than any other kind of terror regime would bring such as a taliban regime. but anyway no matter what positive things he brought at the end he destroyed everything by not stopping a war that was already obviously lost 2 years before the official end and that just meant the destruction of german culture and houses and the death of additional thousands of german soldiers/people.

i already explained a couple of times how foreign influences can make the own culture more strong. just think about all those arabic instruments i mentioned in my postings that where the origin of the european instruments now used in classical music, or about the black influences that lead finally to rock and metal. neither does classical music sound like arabic music nor does metal music sound like black music, but both helped creating an own cultural identity. and once again, being against immigrants doe not necessarily mean to be a nazi!

and i also like to be with people that are similar to me, thats why i prefer to talk with a guy with a similar taste in music of a different nation 100 times more than to talk with an austrian with total different interests.

and btw why is playing trumpet in a brass orchestra redicolous for you, its traditional folk music?

11
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 03, 2007, 09:55:43 AM »
Quote
Our ideals for society already existed in Ancient Greece, Gaul, Germania, old Scandinavia, medieval Europe, and later kingdoms ; we're just wanting them back, and we'll ameliorate these models anytime necessary rather than following blindly an imperfect schema of the past.


for example which ideals of medieval europe would you like to bring back?

12
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 03, 2007, 09:51:35 AM »
Quote

Not at all.  I didn't mean to imply any such thing and I'm sorry you took it that way.  People aren't as unreasonable as you think; after all, they stopped accusing you of just being out to sell more records once you shot down that notion.  But remember you are the only one whose opinion seems absolute, that no one in the nazi party ever had a sincere wish for a better country and everything they did was hateful and destructive, and there were no good ideas.  Maybe that's not what you mean but that's how all your commentary reads.


I suppose so, but I don't think he was advocating the enslavement or imprisonment of blacks so much as the pursuit of ethnic autonomy.  He simply separated the goal from the method.


Yes, but things have changed a lot in Austria.  Change is not necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean all change should be accepted equally just because things are going to change anyway.  It should be up to the smartest and most healthy-minded of people to decide what direction to go in.  The type of people who understand that not all immigration is the same, and that letting a hundred immigrants in is not the same as letting in a million.

As for Israel, of course you don't have to support everything they do - I certainly don't.  But sympathize with the fact that they want to do things their own way instead of becoming like everyone else, which is what will happen if they let everyone else move in.  Again, it's being selective about change instead of proceeding forward blindly
with no plan assuming things will be alright.

Also, being traditional doesn't mean you never accept anything new.  It just means you go with the fundamental values that made a nation successful in the first place.  I think you're confusing traditionalism with conservatism.

I am tempted to contest some of the historical claims you made but I think it's important to remember that they don't matter that much.  I think we all agree that neo-naziism is not valuable, even if we all have differing reasons.  As for the NSDAP, I don't hate them but I can see that it was a failure.  I think the problem is that the slogan
"remember history or be doomed to repeat it" frequently gets interpreted into absurd notions like, "The nazis jailed pedophiles so if you are against pedophelia, you must be for the imprisonment of political dissidents and if you claim not to be, you're a hypocrite."  This is not a great exageration of the types of notions we hear today!  So I think it's good to let go of political labels and the knee-jerk reactions we have to them, along with simplistic
categorical thinking.


yes sure i noticed that the mood of this thread changed in a positive way, but the first reactions where totally based on such stereotypes.

i think the problem is that many people here that sympathize with he nazis simply dont know enough about them and just think about all those super bombastic performances and speeches the nazis did that looked already like some kind of rock show than seeing the facts. it is not my interpretation that the nazis considered their country as better than all others and that they wanted to conquer the word. just think about what the nazis said al the time "heute deutschland, morgen die ganze welt" (today germany, tomorrow the whole world"). and even the more informed nazi sympathizers here indirectly concede this point by saing that that nazis wanted to gain more space for their german race. ok maybe there where positive aspect in the nazi regime but not more than for example in any taliban regime; they might also have postivie aspects there.

and if you really think the nazis where not hatefull just take a loot at hitler speaches (showing the intention of him) and their deeds, its only about hate, just see what they did in the "reichskristallnacht" see the propaganda they made. these are fact, not interpretations. better to juge the nazis by the things they did not by the image they created around themselves. if you just see the propaganda of a government any kind of dictatorship looks super cool and perfect.

about the immigrants. actually i did not really want to talk about that so much as it goes to far away from the nazis topic. but i like to mention that i am not that super ultra strict guy that sees any person who is against immigrants as a nazi! i think thats a bad thing a lot of antnazis do. accusing any person that it not super multicultural as nazis; its a very bad thing for me because it makes the nazis look to harmless, they where much more heavy than   that.

no the difference was already discussed (conservative <=> traditionalist). i understand what you mean, but there is not the slightest doubt that the nazis then belong to the conservatives and NOT to the traditionalists. and it is again a FACT that the nazis did not welcome any kind of new art (once again "entartete kunst") and even burned it!

13
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 02, 2007, 06:44:13 AM »
Quote
Protector:

And please stop this childish stereotypes that all people against nazis are just political correct brainwashed idiots. Use logic instead of stereotypes if this is not to heavy for you.

This is a fair enough request, but then you go back and say something like this:

Interesting, a nazi sympathizer blaming other to be hateful. You ever heard about the psychological phenomen of "projection" ?

See, this is why people think you're a "politically correct brainwashed idiot".  You're jumping to conclusions you have no evidence for.  It is possible for a nazi symapthizer to be hateful, and it is possible for a nazi sympathizer to not be hateful.  It is possible for an antifascist, anti-nazi to be hateful and it is also possible for them to not be hateful.  Logic is funny sometimes, but there you have it.  For example, I could like Hitlerís economic policies but not get any thrill out of seeing Jews gassed.

This is not a neo-nazi forum.  I don't think anyone here is asking you to like the Nazis, much less neo-nazis!  Furthermore, no one is asking you to hate your Turkish or Jewish friends, or throw them in a camp or whatever else you seem to be thinking.  People are raising these facts because 1. they believe the Third Reich is not "evil" in a religious sense but like all historical events a mixture of desirable and undesirable things that we can take lessons from, lessons more complicated than "people who donít love Jews are evil, therefore people who do love Jews are not evil", or "swastikas and marches are evil", and 2. the reason the bad things the Nazis did are stressed in modern propaganda is to cover up the failings of our society today.  It is the ultimate hypocrisy.  And many of the views you have espoused, especially in these so-called contradictions you keep bringing up, sound eerily like the messages from our TV telling us why the entire world should be run by international bankers and all regional cultures and peoples should be melted down and destroyed.  That is why people keep bringing this up even though no one blames you for disliking neo-nazis.

And if you are really black (what i dont believe) then better not mention those idiots to much; you are a shame for all black people on earth if you do that.

What you are essentially saying here is that there is only one opinion or set of opinions a black man is allowed to have.  This is also frequently a symptom of politically correct brainwashing.  A black man's opinions need not be based entirely on his own egotistic feelings.  Sometimes he can think for himself.  It is not relevant to any of his points what Hitler thought of blacks or what muslims once did to blacks.  I wonder if you would call your jewish friend a self-hating jew if you didn't think his political opinions were "jewish enough".  Furthermore youíre simultaneously decrying prejudice and at the same time espousing it:

why they chose islam as their religion. don't you know that the moslems sold the black people as slaves to USA. why collaboration with your historical enemies??

Should all black people hate all muslims forever because a few muslims sold African slaves a few centuries ago?  Couldnít that be unproductive, sort of like the Nazis hating all Jews forever based on grudges they held?



To the people bickering back and forth about the ďfactsĒ of the Third Reich:

You seem to be in basic agreement on what values matter now, so why argue on what some regime in the last century believed or did or would have done if given the chance?  Youíre wasting your time and energy.  You should be discussing what is immediately relevant and helpful here and leave historical revisionism for another time.


...

Oh and one more thing about nationalism:

Protector, you raise a good point that nationalism can be about freedom from foreign rule.  That is perfectly valid.  It is also a valid form of nationalism to reject foreigners taking up permanent residence in your country, and you should accept that such policies are not always a manifestation of hate and racism, even if they were when the Third Reich implemented them.  Right now there are debates going on in Israel about what to do about the growing population of foreign ethnic groups, and them wanting equal representation.  If itís no longer run by Jews then itís no longer Israel, itís the same as everywhere else in the middle east.  Since you donít hate Jews Iím sure you would think this was a shame.  Similarly, since I donít hate Germans, I think it would be a shame if they traded off their country and their ethnic identity for temporary economic incentives or a feeling of moral superiority.  Thatís what nationalism is about today.  It has nothing to do with Nazis or Neo-nazis.

Sorry for being too computer illiterate to figure out how to do quotes like you folks are.



well it is always the same. all opinions against nazis are always brainwashed political correct paroting slogans but any nazi opinions are super individual thought of very wise men.

what you wrote shows it clear to me. people in this forum call me a "politically correct brainwashed idiot" because i write lines i can not prove, but i did not hear anyone here accusing any nazi sympathizer beeing a brainwashed idiot, because he said that i do this "to sell more" and that i "live in a box" and that i am "parroting lines" i read somewhere. there  is not a single prof for that!! and at the beginning of the chat 80% of the posts where totally ful of such empty words and with no arguments at all. fortunately this changed a bit and people started to use arguments as well.

And by the way i just asked if you know the therm projection. i did not say it is for sure, just a chance that this might be the reason. in contrary to this all the nazi sympathizers here  where total sure about their empty simple postings. but actually i understand what you mean, well maybe i should not have written that.

and of course nazis can be without hate and anti nazis with hate. i never said anything contrary. i know how shitty many of those antifa guys behave, just seeing their ideologies as a reason for some fights. i never felt part of them. and i again have to repeat that i often said that nationalism does not necessarily have to be connected to racism. and i really wonder why you explain me the difference between nazis and other kind of nationalism. did not not already say that a couple of times? I can only repeat that the difference is the arrogancy and i also did not say that nazis nowardays are ruling. i just respond to the great number of people here who have great respect to hitler and see fascism as as the best solution to solve any problems they have.

i never said that people who don't like je-ws are evil (as long as they dont put them to concentration camps just for their race) i just think most of them are narrow minded and never got to know any personally and just follow the words hitler wrote so long ago.

and i never said that the third reich was the only evil regime. actually i think USA is getting closer and closer to the third reich, with all their intends to control the world, with all their talk about patriotism and with all their faith to god etc. And Europa is heading to be like USA. On the other hand the islamistic countries are just a kind of arabic thrid reich.
Did i get those opinions also from the propaganda in TV you think?
Stop telling me from where i get my opinions you have no prof for that at all.

i dont think this guy is black. he said that he hates the white cause they can not dance. this sounds so much like a white guy that want the black people look like some idiots that can just dance etc. and a black who knows what it means to be suppressed in a racistic governments just as USA in the beginning should be a bit more wise than to adore a regime that does the same. and interessting taht you said that one symptom of beeing political correct is only accepting one opinion. well as far as i understood you are not supporting fascism but anyway good for all those fascists here that there is one more perswon realising that fascism that always only accepts one opinon (the one of the fascistic leader)  is a extreme form of "policical correctness" as consequence. but strage that specially thos fascist use this therm very much agsaist me (thats actually the reason i used the therm "projection" as possible explanation for that).

no it is ok, they can be moslems, but they shall not think that islam is the symbol for the freedom of the black race, it is the contrary.

no i am not in agreement of the basic values of modern society.
I am against capitalism, against the EU as it only supports the ritch. i am against mainstream music and always showed that by never making musical compromises. and i am also not a nationalist or a patriot whereas all political parties around total focus on that topic since a while.  and i also think that democracy is more and more reduced and the large concerts rule everything. but in contrary to most of this forum my conclusion is not to replace democracy with fascism, i want the contrary because i neither want large concern to make decisions for me nor any fascistic leader.

and btw not hating je-ws generally does not mean to support israel. As a je-wish Austrian politician said many years ago. the israelic government is a good pupil of the third reich. the learned a lot from them. (my israelic coworker in my job as programmer thinks the same btw).

and once again. foreigners dont necessarily destroy
the identity of a culture, sure at the beginning it makes things more complicated, but just think about austria 100 years ago. the many slavoing people where there helping to build up vienna as it looks now. they are no total normal austrians and taht why in austrian telefonebooks you see that 30% of the names are totally slavonic ones, but they behave like austrians speak like austrians and think they are pure austrians. a lot of them are also very nationalistic and patriotic towards austria and some of them even are nazi because they can mentally filter away their roots quite well. anyway if you are so strict and see foreign people who just do normal low sold jobs in the countries as a foreign influence or a damage to cultural identity then you definitely have to see anything that derived from rock muck also as a foreign influence and therefore as a damage to its identity. and actually those "real nationalists" dont like this kind of culture therefore. imagine any klue klux klan member for example playing rock or even metal music during their "performances";-)

and to focus again on the black "roots" (or influences if you prefer) of rock music. thats why i mentioned it first: rock is historically multicultural music and now it is a part of european culture and identity just as the slavonic people in austria are now part of austrian culture.

14
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: June 02, 2007, 06:24:01 AM »
just some thought and links i got in the last weeks i like to post even they are a bit isolated from the rest and maybge a repetition of things i said before.

in which way do you practice your love to your national folk and its traditions?
do you sit together with your fellow countrymen of all age and all social levels together in folk parties arm in arm? do you sing all those traditional songs they sung in the last centuries. do you dress in their tradition. if you dont what other things you do that show your national roots apart from listening to music no in your language for a style that is a very modern one;-)?

here some links for all of you loyal national traditional people in this forum:

http://www.gruenthaler-musikanten.de/images/VolksfestMuehldorf.jpg
http://www.graz-seckau.at/pfarre/graz-ragnitz/vielsaitig/JJF-Kons-Volksmusik-2006.jpg
http://www.volksmusik-franken.de/images/Schwarzenbacher/schwbachho.jpg

(i need to mention here that i dont considered such people automatically as nazi just because they like their own folk music, but they have similar cultural interests)

at the beginning black metal started often as a kind of misanthropic movement hating mankind, suddenly since the nazis could use black metal as toy for their ideology, many black metal fans started to love their folk over everything else. how could this happen? which people you love so much of your nation apart from the ones belonging to your metal scene btw?

anyway all of you who miss so much their national identity and therefore long for a new third reich:
you don't need any hitler to live in harmony with all those national traditions your ancestors had. hurray, they still exist :-)!
just cut your hair if you are male, throw away all your metal t-shirts , go to any small conservative village next to you and march together in their traditional costumes to their traditional brass orchestra music they play since centuries. you can have the same conservative live the nazis had and loved and you can finally be happy and live in peace.

And if you now want to tell me that the real german folk for example where the germanic tribes that where totally different before Christianity destroyed their culture then you have to realize that the nazis hardly brought back any germanic traditions. Apart from some runes on the SS costumes and the swastika (that is actually hinduistic) there is nothing hitler brought back from those times. in contrary he collaborated with the historic greatest enemies of the germanic tribes, the followers of the ancient roman empire. to explain you this information i like to explain how hitler got the name "third reich". he did not consider the germanic tribes as the first reich. he considered the ancient roman empire as the first reich, and the so called "holy roman empire of germany nation" (that lasted from medieval times till 1806) as the second one and continued with the third reich this tradition. nothing at all showing respect to the germanic tribes, just fake empty bullshit talks about that times. still church was ruling and god was not replaced by odin. nazis and catholic churches loved each other as both are antisemitic and they helped each other alot (like blessing the arms of the third reich army etc).

and for all of you who will now tell me how modern the new nazis are and how stupid i am because i still see them as they where in the third reich. just take a look at the nazi parties of today, they look the same as 60 years ago, have the same thoughts (just hiding the most harsh ones in order for better acceptance) as 60 years ago and are as ultra-conservative (and often very catholic as well) as before.
here some links for you as illustration to my words:

http://aktualne.centrum.sk/soumar/img/34/67/346703-slovenska-pospolitos.jpg
http://www.nouadreapta.org/imagini/mari/0407045.jpg  

nazi define their ideologies in their own word as conservative, so i really wonder why so many metal heads here want to make them look like a group of progressive tollerant guys towards new genres of music and art. nazis simply live in the past and always will. they never will accept such progressive music like metal that always tried to break tabus and provok. all art and music that was modern during the thrid reich was called "entartete kunst" (degenerated art) and i really dont see why they suddenly changed to a progressive movement after 60 years. Rock and metal music was always a strong expression of freedome and for individualistic thoughts. thats another reason why rock music will never be a part of any fascistic regime and thats why it always will be "entartete kunst" for them.

15
Metal / Re: Summoning make stand against fascism
« on: May 21, 2007, 04:15:57 PM »
Quote
author=blitzkrieg
> Hitler had about 13 years in power, and look at all the amazing things he managed to destroy.
> Global warming: Didn't do anything to stop it and wasn't planning to; in line with every other country nowadays and back then also. His scope for increasing industrial output meant an INCREASE in pollutant output.

(more quotes here)

> Overpopulation: German mothers who gave birth to many children were revered by the state propaganda. They were given medals and money. Bodies were badly needed for the war grinder.

Healthy offspring was rewarded, and at the same time room was sought so there would be no overpopulation (more land for more people).
At the same time you say bodies were needed for the "war grinder", debunking your own argument.

> Boring mass media: This is a non-point, seeing as what I find interesting you may not, and "mass-media" can mean any form of medium that covers an area, nation or continent. But even so, Hitlers propaganda made wide use of Germanys media output and controlled everything that went out on the airwaves.

Preferences aside - propaganda is everywhere, even today, but few notice it. It may be said that extensive propaganda is a modern phenomenon, but certainly not particular to the Third Reich.

> A perverse society: I can't think of anything more perverted than sending political enemies to ghettoes and concentration camps, and overtly indoctrinating the youth to unthinkingly tow the party line and breed them for war using school and social groups.

If your kitchen is infested with cockroaches, are you going to sit down and watch them nibble on your toes, or are you going to smoke them out? Try to understand how people felt at that time. The NSDAP had realized German culture had it's back up against the wall. Its death had to be prevented at all costs, and while they made some mistakes, most of the sometimes harsh measures were justified.

> Higher values like loyalty and adventure: Loyal to who? They weren't loyal to their culture or people, or even to themselves, they were loyal to Hitler and his corrupt political party. Pathetic loyalty like this is completely opposed to Nietzches idea of the uebermensch. And as for adventure, I guess it's a lovely adventure to be sent into a thousand miles of barren Russian steppe whilst getting shot at!

They were loyal to their culture and people because they strived to prevent both from degenerating into their American or Russian counterparts. Germany at that time had its own culture, which you know nothing about. For me, your remarks are full of hate.


Ah ok "room was sough". again showing this arrogancy. From where they wanted to get this "room"? From other nations apart from the german one. Again showing me how arrogant and egoistic this shitty ideology was.

Well things are getting more expensive each year naturally, but at this time the propaganda of the third reich was surely the most expensive one in the world.

normal working people in the german nation who never behaved wrong where put to concentration camps. read the posts i wrote before.

Interesting, a nazi sympathizer blaming other to be hateful. You ever heard about the psychological phenomen of "projection" ;-)?

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